[tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[TW Tones]

Post script,

In line with the OT, I also though we could have a system-caption field 
that is searched Along with standard tiddlers, so system tiddlers would 
have the option of "publishing themselves" in the standard search. eg the 
tag manager, if you search for it in empty you will not find it, as it 
exist in a system tiddler  $:/TagManager if we gave this a system-caption = 
"Tag Manager" then this system tiddler would be found although it is a 
system tiddler.

This is a somewhat simple core change, or hack.

Regards
Tones
On Sunday, 15 August 2021 at 18:25:39 UTC+10 TW Tones wrote:

> I am late to this thread but I have designed a method called advanced 
> search indicators. Below
>
> There is already a feature to support tabs see $:/tags/SearchResults 
> 
> additional tabs appear in the standard search drop down if you tag some 
> search tabs, *although I am not keen on this method*.
>
> eg make a tiddler tagged $:/tags/SearchResults and the field caption = 
> System and include the below, now search in the sidebar
> \define searchResultList()
>
> //Search System Tiddlers//
> //{{$:/language/Search/Matches/Title}}//
> <$list 
> filter="[is[system]search:title{$(searchTiddler)$}sort[title]limit[250]]" 
> template="$:/PSaT/ExtendedSearch/ListItemCaptionTemplate"/>
>
> //{{$:/language/Search/Matches/All}}//
>
> <$list filter="[is[system]search{$(searchTiddler)$}sort[title]limit[250]]" 
> template="$:/PSaT/ExtendedSearch/ListItemCaptionTemplate"/>
>
> \end
> <>
>
> *Advanced search indicators - design concept*
>
>- What it does is monitor the content if the standard search entry and 
>does much of what you want, ie starts with $ searches for system tiddlers, 
>or allows you to open a tiddler if it exists and a lot, lot more. 
> Basically 
>additional icons appear that if clicked will do something based on the 
>content of the search temp field. eg list all items with the current 
> search 
>string as a prefix...
>
> I will publish this one day, and sooner if someone can sponsor me.
>
> Tones
>
>
>
> On Sunday, 15 August 2021 at 10:23:56 UTC+10 springer wrote:
>
>> David, I'm confused why you see 5 steps to get to advanced search. 
>>
>> Control-Shift-A opens the Advanced Search tiddler and puts your cursor in 
>> the search field... The tab is whatever you last chose, so often there's 
>> only the one quick step. 
>>
>> Your other points are important (and I too use advanced search about as 
>> often as the standard search), but this "5-steps" description misses the 
>> keyboard shortcut...
>>
>> -Springer
>>
>> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 10:10:44 AM UTC-4 David Gifford wrote:
>>
>>> I hate the loss of the edit post button on this forum. 
>>>
>>> I forgot a point: the actual steps are four, before you can enter your 
>>> search term in $:/Advanced search:
>>>
>>> 1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar.
>>> 2. Resist the urge to do a regular search, and instead click 
>>> $:/AdvancedSearch button.
>>> 3. Switch your attention back to the story river to view 
>>> $:/AdvancedSearch.
>>> 4. Pick a tab
>>> 5. Then and only then can you enter your search string.
>>>
>>> Instead, what I am proposing is
>>>
>>> 1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar. 
>>> 2. Enter search string in regular search bar **as step two, rather than 
>>> step five**
>>> 3. Pick a tab and see results
>>> 4. Refine search string if needed
>>>
>>> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 10:01:54 AM UTC-4 David Gifford wrote:
>>>
 Hi everyone

 I am playing with the field-search plugin by PMario, and seeing how 
 search results for a simple search come up in tabs one can pick from.

 This made me wonder, why couldn't there be something similar: do a 
 search from the default searchbar, and have standard, system and shadow 
 come up as tabs? 

 This seems like it would be much more intuitive for users: search, then 
 filter results. As it stands, $:/AdvancedSearch does the opposite: it 
 makes 
 you pick a type of search (standard, system, shadow, filter) first, and 
 only then can you do the search. The search string you want to enter may 
 or 
 may not stay in your short term memory while you are figuring out which 
 type of search you want to do. It seems like it would be a better user 
 experience to 'dump' the search term first, then figure out which tab you 
 want.

 On the same subject, Why is there no comparable "recent" tab for system 
 tiddlers? It seems like developers would benefit greatly having something 
 like that open as they work on macros, styling, buttons, etc. 

 I would love to hear your input: 
 Do you agree with me? Why or why not? If so, should this be core pull 
 request or a plugin? 
 What are the reasons $:/AdvancedSearch is set up backwards? Technical 

[tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[TW Tones]

I am late to this thread but I have designed a method called advanced 
search indicators. Below

There is already a feature to support tabs see $:/tags/SearchResults 

additional tabs appear in the standard search drop down if you tag some 
search tabs, *although I am not keen on this method*.

eg make a tiddler tagged $:/tags/SearchResults and the field caption = 
System and include the below, now search in the sidebar
\define searchResultList()

//Search System Tiddlers//
//{{$:/language/Search/Matches/Title}}//
<$list 
filter="[is[system]search:title{$(searchTiddler)$}sort[title]limit[250]]" 
template="$:/PSaT/ExtendedSearch/ListItemCaptionTemplate"/>

//{{$:/language/Search/Matches/All}}//

<$list filter="[is[system]search{$(searchTiddler)$}sort[title]limit[250]]" 
template="$:/PSaT/ExtendedSearch/ListItemCaptionTemplate"/>

\end
<>

*Advanced search indicators - design concept*

   - What it does is monitor the content if the standard search entry and 
   does much of what you want, ie starts with $ searches for system tiddlers, 
   or allows you to open a tiddler if it exists and a lot, lot more. Basically 
   additional icons appear that if clicked will do something based on the 
   content of the search temp field. eg list all items with the current search 
   string as a prefix...

I will publish this one day, and sooner if someone can sponsor me.

Tones



On Sunday, 15 August 2021 at 10:23:56 UTC+10 springer wrote:

> David, I'm confused why you see 5 steps to get to advanced search. 
>
> Control-Shift-A opens the Advanced Search tiddler and puts your cursor in 
> the search field... The tab is whatever you last chose, so often there's 
> only the one quick step. 
>
> Your other points are important (and I too use advanced search about as 
> often as the standard search), but this "5-steps" description misses the 
> keyboard shortcut...
>
> -Springer
>
> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 10:10:44 AM UTC-4 David Gifford wrote:
>
>> I hate the loss of the edit post button on this forum. 
>>
>> I forgot a point: the actual steps are four, before you can enter your 
>> search term in $:/Advanced search:
>>
>> 1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar.
>> 2. Resist the urge to do a regular search, and instead click 
>> $:/AdvancedSearch button.
>> 3. Switch your attention back to the story river to view 
>> $:/AdvancedSearch.
>> 4. Pick a tab
>> 5. Then and only then can you enter your search string.
>>
>> Instead, what I am proposing is
>>
>> 1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar. 
>> 2. Enter search string in regular search bar **as step two, rather than 
>> step five**
>> 3. Pick a tab and see results
>> 4. Refine search string if needed
>>
>> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 10:01:54 AM UTC-4 David Gifford wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone
>>>
>>> I am playing with the field-search plugin by PMario, and seeing how 
>>> search results for a simple search come up in tabs one can pick from.
>>>
>>> This made me wonder, why couldn't there be something similar: do a 
>>> search from the default searchbar, and have standard, system and shadow 
>>> come up as tabs? 
>>>
>>> This seems like it would be much more intuitive for users: search, then 
>>> filter results. As it stands, $:/AdvancedSearch does the opposite: it makes 
>>> you pick a type of search (standard, system, shadow, filter) first, and 
>>> only then can you do the search. The search string you want to enter may or 
>>> may not stay in your short term memory while you are figuring out which 
>>> type of search you want to do. It seems like it would be a better user 
>>> experience to 'dump' the search term first, then figure out which tab you 
>>> want.
>>>
>>> On the same subject, Why is there no comparable "recent" tab for system 
>>> tiddlers? It seems like developers would benefit greatly having something 
>>> like that open as they work on macros, styling, buttons, etc. 
>>>
>>> I would love to hear your input: 
>>> Do you agree with me? Why or why not? If so, should this be core pull 
>>> request or a plugin? 
>>> What are the reasons $:/AdvancedSearch is set up backwards? Technical 
>>> limitations? Workflow-related?
>>> What are the ways you work around these limitations?
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[springer]

David, I'm confused why you see 5 steps to get to advanced search. 

Control-Shift-A opens the Advanced Search tiddler and puts your cursor in 
the search field... The tab is whatever you last chose, so often there's 
only the one quick step. 

Your other points are important (and I too use advanced search about as 
often as the standard search), but this "5-steps" description misses the 
keyboard shortcut...

-Springer

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 10:10:44 AM UTC-4 David Gifford wrote:

> I hate the loss of the edit post button on this forum. 
>
> I forgot a point: the actual steps are four, before you can enter your 
> search term in $:/Advanced search:
>
> 1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar.
> 2. Resist the urge to do a regular search, and instead click 
> $:/AdvancedSearch button.
> 3. Switch your attention back to the story river to view $:/AdvancedSearch.
> 4. Pick a tab
> 5. Then and only then can you enter your search string.
>
> Instead, what I am proposing is
>
> 1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar. 
> 2. Enter search string in regular search bar **as step two, rather than 
> step five**
> 3. Pick a tab and see results
> 4. Refine search string if needed
>
> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 10:01:54 AM UTC-4 David Gifford wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> I am playing with the field-search plugin by PMario, and seeing how 
>> search results for a simple search come up in tabs one can pick from.
>>
>> This made me wonder, why couldn't there be something similar: do a search 
>> from the default searchbar, and have standard, system and shadow come up as 
>> tabs? 
>>
>> This seems like it would be much more intuitive for users: search, then 
>> filter results. As it stands, $:/AdvancedSearch does the opposite: it makes 
>> you pick a type of search (standard, system, shadow, filter) first, and 
>> only then can you do the search. The search string you want to enter may or 
>> may not stay in your short term memory while you are figuring out which 
>> type of search you want to do. It seems like it would be a better user 
>> experience to 'dump' the search term first, then figure out which tab you 
>> want.
>>
>> On the same subject, Why is there no comparable "recent" tab for system 
>> tiddlers? It seems like developers would benefit greatly having something 
>> like that open as they work on macros, styling, buttons, etc. 
>>
>> I would love to hear your input: 
>> Do you agree with me? Why or why not? If so, should this be core pull 
>> request or a plugin? 
>> What are the reasons $:/AdvancedSearch is set up backwards? Technical 
>> limitations? Workflow-related?
>> What are the ways you work around these limitations?
>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[PMario]

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 7:19:53 PM UTC+2 Stobot wrote:

> I agree that the other forms of search could be made a bit more 
> convenient, though I've gone back and forth on the best way to solve it. 
> For a few years I did what has been suggested, break the other options down 
> into tabs. As a minimalist though, nowadays I instead built a "smarter" 
> search bar that looks at the first character and changes search type 
> accordingly. I just opened the code for AdvancedSearch and copy pasted it 
> all into one search area. Now if my search bar starts with the:
>
>- "[" character it acts like I'm in the filter area
>- "$" character it acts like I'm in the system area
>- "!" character it acts like I'm in the shadow area
>- else, treats as a regular search
>
> That's a nice idea. I like it!
 

>
>- S - Search: Where I house the "smart" search bar.
>- O - Open: I just transclude the normal open sidebar tab
>- R - Recent: I just transclude the normal recent tab (though like the 
>idea below of separating / including system tiddlers!)
>- T - Tags: Kind of a mashup of the tags area, and some kind of global 
>table of contents - still a work-in-process. 
>
> Lots of CSS still to figure out (really not my strong suit), but I like 
> the way it's coming together. I aim to pair this with some introductory 
> videos etc. linking it to how to use it along-side other Office 
> applications like Outlook, Excel, etc. 
> [image: image.png]
> Anyways, sorry if that branches off too hard from your post David, but 
> just adding thoughts. 
>

That's pretty. I'm looking forward to that theme. If you need help, just 
let me know. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[PMario]

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 4:01:54 PM UTC+2 David Gifford wrote:

This made me wonder, why couldn't there be something similar: do a search 
> from the default searchbar, and have standard, system and shadow come up as 
> tabs? 
>

I think this should be possible. ... The whole search behaviour has grown 
organically. I think nobody requested it in a reasonable interesting way. 
... I personally did create the advanced-search-plus (ASP) plugin, which 
perfectly fits my needs. .. So I don't have the desire to create new stuff 
as long as the existing behaviour is "just good enough" ;)
 

> This seems like it would be much more intuitive for users: search, then 
> filter results. As it stands, $:/AdvancedSearch does the opposite: it makes 
> you pick a type of search (standard, system, shadow, filter) first, and 
> only then can you do the search. The search string you want to enter may or 
> may not stay in your short term memory while you are figuring out which 
> type of search you want to do. It seems like it would be a better user 
> experience to 'dump' the search term first, then figure out which tab you 
> want.
>

That was 1 reason, why I did create ASP plugin. 

 

> On the same subject, Why is there no comparable "recent" tab for system 
> tiddlers? It seems like developers would benefit greatly having something 
> like that open as they work on macros, styling, buttons, etc. 
>

IMO Nobody requested it. But it seems to make sense. 
 

> I would love to hear your input: 
> Do you agree with me?
>

yes
 

> Why or why not? If so, should this be core pull request or a plugin? 
>

hmmm, That's a difficult question. ... You are a very advanced user 
already. So your desire IMO is very different to novice users. 
 

> What are the reasons $:/AdvancedSearch is set up backwards?
>

It has been implemented that way and it did make sense. I think nobody 
questioned it since now.
 

> Technical limitations? Workflow-related?
>

No ... It was developed that way and it worked. ... just good enough ;)
 

> What are the ways you work around these limitations?
>

As I wrote: advanced search plus plugin 
. ... There is a 
video on the plugin page. In combination with the "link-to-tabs" plugin it 
solves all my dev needs. 

have fun!
mario
 

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Re: [tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[Adam Stobbe]

I agree that the other forms of search could be made a bit more convenient,
though I've gone back and forth on the best way to solve it. For a few
years I did what has been suggested, break the other options down into
tabs. As a minimalist though, nowadays I instead built a "smarter" search
bar that looks at the first character and changes search type accordingly.
I just opened the code for AdvancedSearch and copy pasted it all into one
search area. Now if my search bar starts with the:

   - "[" character it acts like I'm in the filter area
   - "$" character it acts like I'm in the system area
   - "!" character it acts like I'm in the shadow area
   - else, treats as a regular search

This kind of gets me to the same place, but is a little more keyboard
friendly. It also kind of hides the advanced functionality for those that
might be overwhelmed by it - until such time that they realize how valuable
it can be. I know I'm not the first to think of it - just mentioning it for
others who haven't thought that way.

On another topic related to the search functionality (and I bring up since
I mentioned greatly changing normal functionality), I like a persistent
results area (rather than the standard semi-transient default one). I'm
currently working on a theme/edition aimed at corporate Office workers like
myself (currently calling Officey) and am taking opportunities to make it
look/feel more like an Office365 web application to hopefully drive
adoption at my company. A quick example screenshot is below. I envision
there being 4 key ways of navigating content that happily have the acronym
SORT - so I can call it the SORT area. The components are dedicated tabs
for each:

   - S - Search: Where I house the "smart" search bar.
   - O - Open: I just transclude the normal open sidebar tab
   - R - Recent: I just transclude the normal recent tab (though like the
   idea below of separating / including system tiddlers!)
   - T - Tags: Kind of a mashup of the tags area, and some kind of global
   table of contents - still a work-in-process.

Lots of CSS still to figure out (really not my strong suit), but I like the
way it's coming together. I aim to pair this with some introductory videos
etc. linking it to how to use it along-side other Office applications like
Outlook, Excel, etc.
[image: image.png]
Anyways, sorry if that branches off too hard from your post David, but just
adding thoughts.

On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 10:17 AM ludwa6  wrote:

> Like you, @David : i rely heavily on $:/AdvancedSearch -but that is often
> a 2nd step, after i first 'dump the search term' into the default
> searchbar, i will then click the magnifier icon beside to look into the
> other tabs provided by #:/AdvancedSearch.  I guess this the search workflow
> on which the UI design is predicated; works well enough for an "advanced
> beginner" like myself (i.e. one who is usually looking for content, but
> does fairly often need to retrieve the code behind it), but for a bonafide
> developer like yourself, i can see how this 3-step workflow might be
> suboptimal.
>
> /walt
>
> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 3:01:54 PM UTC+1 David Gifford wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> I am playing with the field-search plugin by PMario, and seeing how
>> search results for a simple search come up in tabs one can pick from.
>>
>> This made me wonder, why couldn't there be something similar: do a search
>> from the default searchbar, and have standard, system and shadow come up as
>> tabs?
>>
>> This seems like it would be much more intuitive for users: search, then
>> filter results. As it stands, $:/AdvancedSearch does the opposite: it makes
>> you pick a type of search (standard, system, shadow, filter) first, and
>> only then can you do the search. The search string you want to enter may or
>> may not stay in your short term memory while you are figuring out which
>> type of search you want to do. It seems like it would be a better user
>> experience to 'dump' the search term first, then figure out which tab you
>> want.
>>
>> On the same subject, Why is there no comparable "recent" tab for system
>> tiddlers? It seems like developers would benefit greatly having something
>> like that open as they work on macros, styling, buttons, etc.
>>
>> I would love to hear your input:
>> Do you agree with me? Why or why not? If so, should this be core pull
>> request or a plugin?
>> What are the reasons $:/AdvancedSearch is set up backwards? Technical
>> limitations? Workflow-related?
>> What are the ways you work around these limitations?
>>
>> --
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> 

[tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[ludwa6]

Like you, @David : i rely heavily on $:/AdvancedSearch -but that is often a 
2nd step, after i first 'dump the search term' into the default searchbar, 
i will then click the magnifier icon beside to look into the other tabs 
provided by #:/AdvancedSearch.  I guess this the search workflow on which 
the UI design is predicated; works well enough for an "advanced beginner" 
like myself (i.e. one who is usually looking for content, but does fairly 
often need to retrieve the code behind it), but for a bonafide developer 
like yourself, i can see how this 3-step workflow might be suboptimal. 

/walt

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 3:01:54 PM UTC+1 David Gifford wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> I am playing with the field-search plugin by PMario, and seeing how search 
> results for a simple search come up in tabs one can pick from.
>
> This made me wonder, why couldn't there be something similar: do a search 
> from the default searchbar, and have standard, system and shadow come up as 
> tabs? 
>
> This seems like it would be much more intuitive for users: search, then 
> filter results. As it stands, $:/AdvancedSearch does the opposite: it makes 
> you pick a type of search (standard, system, shadow, filter) first, and 
> only then can you do the search. The search string you want to enter may or 
> may not stay in your short term memory while you are figuring out which 
> type of search you want to do. It seems like it would be a better user 
> experience to 'dump' the search term first, then figure out which tab you 
> want.
>
> On the same subject, Why is there no comparable "recent" tab for system 
> tiddlers? It seems like developers would benefit greatly having something 
> like that open as they work on macros, styling, buttons, etc. 
>
> I would love to hear your input: 
> Do you agree with me? Why or why not? If so, should this be core pull 
> request or a plugin? 
> What are the reasons $:/AdvancedSearch is set up backwards? Technical 
> limitations? Workflow-related?
> What are the ways you work around these limitations?
>
>

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[tw5] Re: System and shadow need some love

[David Gifford]

I hate the loss of the edit post button on this forum. 

I forgot a point: the actual steps are four, before you can enter your 
search term in $:/Advanced search:

1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar.
2. Resist the urge to do a regular search, and instead click 
$:/AdvancedSearch button.
3. Switch your attention back to the story river to view $:/AdvancedSearch.
4. Pick a tab
5. Then and only then can you enter your search string.

Instead, what I am proposing is

1. Move from what you are doing in the story river, to the sidebar. 
2. Enter search string in regular search bar **as step two, rather than 
step five**
3. Pick a tab and see results
4. Refine search string if needed

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 10:01:54 AM UTC-4 David Gifford wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> I am playing with the field-search plugin by PMario, and seeing how search 
> results for a simple search come up in tabs one can pick from.
>
> This made me wonder, why couldn't there be something similar: do a search 
> from the default searchbar, and have standard, system and shadow come up as 
> tabs? 
>
> This seems like it would be much more intuitive for users: search, then 
> filter results. As it stands, $:/AdvancedSearch does the opposite: it makes 
> you pick a type of search (standard, system, shadow, filter) first, and 
> only then can you do the search. The search string you want to enter may or 
> may not stay in your short term memory while you are figuring out which 
> type of search you want to do. It seems like it would be a better user 
> experience to 'dump' the search term first, then figure out which tab you 
> want.
>
> On the same subject, Why is there no comparable "recent" tab for system 
> tiddlers? It seems like developers would benefit greatly having something 
> like that open as they work on macros, styling, buttons, etc. 
>
> I would love to hear your input: 
> Do you agree with me? Why or why not? If so, should this be core pull 
> request or a plugin? 
> What are the reasons $:/AdvancedSearch is set up backwards? Technical 
> limitations? Workflow-related?
> What are the ways you work around these limitations?
>
>

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