[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
TT Thanks for reitterating. Appreciate your knowledge here. There is the concept of inheritance for trickle down attribute values and security which is fortunately simpler in many respects. For all types of inheritance its worth collecting tools an methods for designers. What ever the way html list work its a fact any relationship can be represented in tiddlywiki. I challenge anyone to describe a relationship the don't thing tiddly wiki can represent if not present diagramaticaly. Regards Tony -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/1d182840-fbef-4814-ad94-c6b9330d2718%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
TonyM wrote:
>
> With two parents in genealogy it is recognised there is a patralinial and
> matralinial tree and when exploring relationships one chooses which tree to
> follow with, towards ancestors or descendants.
>
I get where you are coming from. I just thought it worth re-iterating what
I have written on this before.
Actual Western kinship systems are dominantly *bilateral* (descent includes
mother & father; with a complication being married names which tend to be
mainly patrilineal). Of course it is more complex than that (deaths of
parents, remarriage, retain maiden name, sorority, adoption, step-children,
same sex marriage etc.)
The point is *you need bilateral structure to even begin to depict it at
all adequately*.
Once you have that structure the complications can be addressed.
In anthropology the "categorical kinship system" *has to be bilateral *because
it is a "meta-level" system showing how cultures differently depict and
understand kinship (which is a system of "categories for relatives" based,
ultimately [in one way or another], on biology). Lineages & clans are
social models that are sub-sets of that.
And there is one big issue, apart from figuring out how to enter data
correctly to cross-connect children & parents: the limits of HTML lists.
They cannot branch from conjunction ("marriage"). They do okayish with
unilineal descent (patri or matri) but bilateral is, as far as I can see,
impossible in HTML lists.
So another way to display is needed in the HTML output.
I'm aware that the focus in this thread is not necessarily on human
kinship.
But I do think that the problems depicting, especially bilateral, descent
is a concrete common case worth attention.
BTW, unilineal descent has been depicted pretty successfully already in TW
several times. Bimlas does it extremely well. Mat also did it in a simple
way using CSS + lists.
(I can maybe find the posts if there is interest.)
Best wishes
TT
>
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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Mohammad,
I understands its complexity comes from its power, test it against a copy
of tiddlywiki.com and using items in the toc,
The Kin operator is like a toc only it returns the list of descendants and
or ancestors as a list from a filter.
Where it gets powerful is you can exclude one kin set from another so all
descendants of my grandfather except all descendants of mt father will list
uncles and cousins but not my father and me and my siblings.
Regards
Tony
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:09:05 PM UTC+11, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Thanks Mark,
> I think one parent is simpler to understand and follow and more usable in
> Tiddlywiki than two parents!
> As you said the parser needs to support inheritance if not I have to go
> with macros!
>
> @TonyM
> I will have a look at kin plugin by bimlas! At the announce time I found
> it rather complex, but now I will go deep to see
> what mechanism he is used!
>
> --Mohammad
>
> On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 1:08:36 AM UTC+3:30, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> Doing this where {{!!field}} returns the inherited value would probably
>> require a rewrite of the parser.
>>
>> But you could do something like this with macros.
>>
>> Each tiddler would have a field, say lparent (for logical parent).
>>
>> You would invoke like <>
>>
>> The macro would look to see if there was a field, "myfield". If so, it
>> would return the value. If not, it would use lparent to check the next
>> parent. If that didn't work it would check that tiddler's lparent field.
>> And so on. Probably using some recursive code.
>>
>> You could also possibly deal with two parents, if you're willing to
>> designate "dominate" parents whose value wins in the case of a tie. But
>> that's a digression.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 8:13:54 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you all for your reply!
>>>
>>>
>>>1. At first we need simple inheritance like making different styles
>>>for a div or table elements all inherited some features
>>>2. There is one parent, grand parent and grand grand parent
>>>3. We need to have children inherit properties from their parent BUT
>>>4. can overload (override) some features they have themselves
>>>
>>> Using small code I could implement one step inheritance, but one would
>>> like to have such feature from transclusion like {{!!template}}
>>>
>>>
>>> A Demo
>>> This demo implement one step inheritance e.g child has only one parent
>>> and no grand parent
>>> look at : http://hirad.tiddlyspot.com/
>>>
>>> Here in examples we have a parent with three fields: first-name,
>>> last-name, age
>>> If a tiddler has not a field or a field with empty value, one expects
>>> child inherits its property (field/value) from parent
>>>
>>>- parent, child1, child2 is an example of what Mario explained and
>>>this is the current mechanism in Tiddlywiki e.g. what is called
>>> templating
>>>- parent, child1-p2, child2-p2 is an example of what I said in the
>>>question, simple inheritance
>>> - All child may not have all fields parent has or may have an
>>> empty field
>>> - A child if has not set a field (here a property) it will
>>> inherit that filed / value from its parent
>>> - NOTE: In this example child2-p2 has NO *last-name* field and
>>> its value has inherited from parent.
>>>
>>> This is the content of parent2 which uses a little code to implement the
>>> above simple inheritance
>>> I have gone through what Mark proposed ONE parent ...
>>>
>>>
>>> *What do you think?*
>>>
>>> This if work can have many use cases!
>>>
>>> --Mohammad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:09:50 PM UTC+3:30, PMario wrote:
Hi Mohamad,
I think your example doesn't work, since the "inheritence" in this case
won't hold. The "child" always needs its own last-name.
eg: Let's say parent-1 and parent-2 have different last-names. The
child will be transcluded into both parents and would therefore have 3
different last-names.
In reality a child can get:
1) child gets parent-1 last-name
2) child gets parent-2 last- name
3) a combination of parent-1 and parent-2 last-name
and may be
4) If child is old enough it can decide to get a completely different
name.
--
I think inheritance violates the tiddlers number 1 rule: A tiddler is
the smallest unit of content, that makes sense on its own.
have fun!
mario
>>>
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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Thanks Mark,
I think one parent is simpler to understand and follow and more usable in
Tiddlywiki than two parents!
As you said the parser needs to support inheritance if not I have to go
with macros!
@TonyM
I will have a look at kin plugin by bimlas! At the announce time I found it
rather complex, but now I will go deep to see
what mechanism he is used!
--Mohammad
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 1:08:36 AM UTC+3:30, Mark S. wrote:
>
> Doing this where {{!!field}} returns the inherited value would probably
> require a rewrite of the parser.
>
> But you could do something like this with macros.
>
> Each tiddler would have a field, say lparent (for logical parent).
>
> You would invoke like <>
>
> The macro would look to see if there was a field, "myfield". If so, it
> would return the value. If not, it would use lparent to check the next
> parent. If that didn't work it would check that tiddler's lparent field.
> And so on. Probably using some recursive code.
>
> You could also possibly deal with two parents, if you're willing to
> designate "dominate" parents whose value wins in the case of a tie. But
> that's a digression.
>
>
>
> On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 8:13:54 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> Thank you all for your reply!
>>
>>
>>1. At first we need simple inheritance like making different styles
>>for a div or table elements all inherited some features
>>2. There is one parent, grand parent and grand grand parent
>>3. We need to have children inherit properties from their parent BUT
>>4. can overload (override) some features they have themselves
>>
>> Using small code I could implement one step inheritance, but one would
>> like to have such feature from transclusion like {{!!template}}
>>
>>
>> A Demo
>> This demo implement one step inheritance e.g child has only one parent
>> and no grand parent
>> look at : http://hirad.tiddlyspot.com/
>>
>> Here in examples we have a parent with three fields: first-name,
>> last-name, age
>> If a tiddler has not a field or a field with empty value, one expects
>> child inherits its property (field/value) from parent
>>
>>- parent, child1, child2 is an example of what Mario explained and
>>this is the current mechanism in Tiddlywiki e.g. what is called templating
>>- parent, child1-p2, child2-p2 is an example of what I said in the
>>question, simple inheritance
>> - All child may not have all fields parent has or may have an
>> empty field
>> - A child if has not set a field (here a property) it will inherit
>> that filed / value from its parent
>> - NOTE: In this example child2-p2 has NO *last-name* field and its
>> value has inherited from parent.
>>
>> This is the content of parent2 which uses a little code to implement the
>> above simple inheritance
>> I have gone through what Mark proposed ONE parent ...
>>
>>
>> *What do you think?*
>>
>> This if work can have many use cases!
>>
>> --Mohammad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:09:50 PM UTC+3:30, PMario wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mohamad,
>>>
>>> I think your example doesn't work, since the "inheritence" in this case
>>> won't hold. The "child" always needs its own last-name.
>>>
>>> eg: Let's say parent-1 and parent-2 have different last-names. The child
>>> will be transcluded into both parents and would therefore have 3 different
>>> last-names.
>>>
>>> In reality a child can get:
>>>
>>> 1) child gets parent-1 last-name
>>> 2) child gets parent-2 last- name
>>> 3) a combination of parent-1 and parent-2 last-name
>>> and may be
>>> 4) If child is old enough it can decide to get a completely different
>>> name.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> I think inheritance violates the tiddlers number 1 rule: A tiddler is
>>> the smallest unit of content, that makes sense on its own.
>>>
>>> have fun!
>>> mario
>>>
>>
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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Mark Some thoughts With two parents in genealogy it is recognised there is a patralinial and matralinial tree and when exploring relationships one chooses which tree to follow with, towards ancestors or descendants. In either case or when wanting to investigate both trees it is wise to limit how deep you go. Perhaps 3 back 3 forward and then allow selection of any member in the tree and regenerate 3 back and 3 forward for the selected member. in active directory, file systems and edirectory inheritance is a litte different, its part of what I alluded to before dealing with missing values. Basicaly you look for a value locally then walk back up the tree until you find the value you are after. This allows the minimum data to be provided because it effectively trickles down unless overridden. I have built a method to produce what I call a branch, Basicaly you iterate the whole tree but store a strait line of ancestors for each item in the tree e.g. grand, father, son, grandson in a patralinial branch. You can then use the branch to search for an inherited attribute/value. If you did this for both matralinial and patralinial branches you could get conflicting results and this needs to be resolved. Evolution effectively does this randomly with exceptions. When this is resolved the result needs to be stored so that subsequent decendants inherit the result. All this can already be done with a little work. There is one exception to inheritance flowing down the tree that my father likes to remind me. "madness is inheritable, you can catch it from your children" Regards Tony -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f0afe49d-ffa4-4c62-9012-283bcbff7bb7%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Doing this where {{!!field}} returns the inherited value would probably
require a rewrite of the parser.
But you could do something like this with macros.
Each tiddler would have a field, say lparent (for logical parent).
You would invoke like <>
The macro would look to see if there was a field, "myfield". If so, it
would return the value. If not, it would use lparent to check the next
parent. If that didn't work it would check that tiddler's lparent field.
And so on. Probably using some recursive code.
You could also possibly deal with two parents, if you're willing to
designate "dominate" parents whose value wins in the case of a tie. But
that's a digression.
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 8:13:54 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your reply!
>
>
>1. At first we need simple inheritance like making different styles
>for a div or table elements all inherited some features
>2. There is one parent, grand parent and grand grand parent
>3. We need to have children inherit properties from their parent BUT
>4. can overload (override) some features they have themselves
>
> Using small code I could implement one step inheritance, but one would
> like to have such feature from transclusion like {{!!template}}
>
>
> A Demo
> This demo implement one step inheritance e.g child has only one parent and
> no grand parent
> look at : http://hirad.tiddlyspot.com/
>
> Here in examples we have a parent with three fields: first-name,
> last-name, age
> If a tiddler has not a field or a field with empty value, one expects
> child inherits its property (field/value) from parent
>
>- parent, child1, child2 is an example of what Mario explained and
>this is the current mechanism in Tiddlywiki e.g. what is called templating
>- parent, child1-p2, child2-p2 is an example of what I said in the
>question, simple inheritance
> - All child may not have all fields parent has or may have an empty
> field
> - A child if has not set a field (here a property) it will inherit
> that filed / value from its parent
> - NOTE: In this example child2-p2 has NO *last-name* field and its
> value has inherited from parent.
>
> This is the content of parent2 which uses a little code to implement the
> above simple inheritance
> I have gone through what Mark proposed ONE parent ...
>
>
> *What do you think?*
>
> This if work can have many use cases!
>
> --Mohammad
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:09:50 PM UTC+3:30, PMario wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mohamad,
>>
>> I think your example doesn't work, since the "inheritence" in this case
>> won't hold. The "child" always needs its own last-name.
>>
>> eg: Let's say parent-1 and parent-2 have different last-names. The child
>> will be transcluded into both parents and would therefore have 3 different
>> last-names.
>>
>> In reality a child can get:
>>
>> 1) child gets parent-1 last-name
>> 2) child gets parent-2 last- name
>> 3) a combination of parent-1 and parent-2 last-name
>> and may be
>> 4) If child is old enough it can decide to get a completely different
>> name.
>>
>> --
>>
>> I think inheritance violates the tiddlers number 1 rule: A tiddler is the
>> smallest unit of content, that makes sense on its own.
>>
>> have fun!
>> mario
>>
>
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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Parents beget children If you create children from a parent or parents you can ensure they inherit. Starting with their parents names. If you wish a child could have a field containg not a value but a treansluded text reference. Its value will thus be inherited. Replacing this reference with a value breaks inheritance. Genealogical trees are already possible, the designer just needs to add logic, Bimlases kin operator is powerful support for this as is Mario's tocp. One of the keys to such structures is to ensure you also know how to handle missing values. I know that most of the longest contributors to tiddlywiki also write plugins or propose core changes however I am avoiding this and developing my expertise in the tiddlywiki wikitext and macros rhelm I am confident I can build almost any structure and relationship. I know I am not always taken seriously or I am criticised for my suggestions of what I perceive to be necessary but would urge you all to consider my somewhat unique perspective, an experienced IT DESIGNER who is mostly not reverting to JavaScript code. Please consider me a resource for solving problems in the wiki text and macros space and identifying limitations therein because that is my playground. Every time I see a possible limitation I find a workaround, I have 100s of design hacks in my library for systems I want to build in the future. I figure unless I spell this out how would you know? I already have solutions for some of the limitations I have identified and many will be published in time. diverse communities are strong communities, embrace diversity. Tony -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/06ef09e3-e235-40ee-98ef-35a277586dbd%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Post edited! See the original! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/253098b4-ff8f-4588-ac24-298b0a595527%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Thank you all for your reply!
1. At first we need simple inheritance like making different styles for
a div or table elements all inherited some features
2. There is one parent, grand parent and grand grand parent
3. We need to have children inherit properties from their parent BUT
4. can overload (override) some features they have themselves
Using small code I could implement one step inheritance, but one would like
to have such feature from transclusion like {{!!template}}
A Demo
This demo implement one step inheritance e.g child has only one parent and
no grand parent
look at : http://hirad.tiddlyspot.com/
Here in examples we have a parent with three fields: first-name, last-name,
age
If a tiddler has not a field or a field with empty value, one expects child
inherits its property (field/value) from parent
- parent, child1, child2 is an example of what Mario explained and this
is the current mechanism in Tiddlywiki e.g. what is called templating
- parent, child1-p2, child2-p2 is an example of what I said in the
question, simple inheritance
- All child may not have all fields parent has or may have an empty
field
- A child if has not set a field (here a property) it will inherit
that filed / value from its parent
- NOTE: In this example child2-p2 has NO *last-name* field and its
value has inherited from parent.
This is the content of parent2 which uses a little code to implement the
above simple inheritance
I have gone through what Mark proposed ONE parent ...
*What do you think?*
This if work can have many use cases!
--Mohammad
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:09:50 PM UTC+3:30, PMario wrote:
>
> Hi Mohamad,
>
> I think your example doesn't work, since the "inheritence" in this case
> won't hold. The "child" always needs its own last-name.
>
> eg: Let's say parent-1 and parent-2 have different last-names. The child
> will be transcluded into both parents and would therefore have 3 different
> last-names.
>
> In reality a child can get:
>
> 1) child gets parent-1 last-name
> 2) child gets parent-2 last- name
> 3) a combination of parent-1 and parent-2 last-name
> and may be
> 4) If child is old enough it can decide to get a completely different
> name.
>
> --
>
> I think inheritance violates the tiddlers number 1 rule: A tiddler is the
> smallest unit of content, that makes sense on its own.
>
> have fun!
> mario
>
--
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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Modeling kinship would not necessarily depend on the underlying software having features of multi-parent inheritance. You can have parent and child tiddlers, but their relationship would not be expressed via transclusion but via some other mechanism such as role fields, tags, etc. On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 7:14:38 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote: > > Mark S. wrote: >> >> I think we probably want to stick with amoeba style inheritance, and >> assume only one parent at a time. >> > > I am not an amoeba, I am a human being. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud-eiDxeJj4 > > Inheritance from two parents--apart from being biologically sound--I found > very difficult to get to in TW. Not there yet. > Things like kinship charts are difficult without it. > > TT > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/886f54a0-ba52-4f97-816e-4886ea25fc3b%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Mark S. wrote: > > I think we probably want to stick with amoeba style inheritance, and > assume only one parent at a time. > I am not an amoeba, I am a human being. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud-eiDxeJj4 Inheritance from two parents--apart from being biologically sound--I found very difficult to get to in TW. Not there yet. Things like kinship charts are difficult without it. TT -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/c0a3f68d-efa7-4c60-96e1-c6ceec6963c5%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
You've kind of skipped to an advanced computer science topic -- two parent inheritance. C++ offers two-parent inheritance, but most modern systems, like Java don't. It's just too messy and complicated. In biological inheritance, nature tosses a coin and various features are selected from each parent randomly. Probably not what one wants in their TW app. I think we probably want to stick with amoeba style inheritance, and assume only one parent at a time. On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:39:50 AM UTC-8, PMario wrote: > > Hi Mohamad, > > I think your example doesn't work, since the "inheritence" in this case > won't hold. The "child" always needs its own last-name. > > eg: Let's say parent-1 and parent-2 have different last-names. The child > will be transcluded into both parents and would therefore have 3 different > last-names. > > In reality a child can get: > > 1) child gets parent-1 last-name > 2) child gets parent-2 last- name > 3) a combination of parent-1 and parent-2 last-name > and may be > 4) If child is old enough it can decide to get a completely different > name. > > -- > > I think inheritance violates the tiddlers number 1 rule: A tiddler is the > smallest unit of content, that makes sense on its own. > > have fun! > mario > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5d2fdc17-05e6-4750-a29e-458bc6b70e86%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Ciao PMario & Mohammad TBH, I think it would be well worth having some concrete, fairly detailed, examples of this & different strategies. While the official docs are good, the more formal compact presentation doesn't always illustrate well. I'm very interested in tools and methods for complex transclusion. In particular, for examples that allow *the writer to stay "in flow"*, rather than segway. I'm less bothered if its "philosophically right" than if it helps me write articles (assemblages of Tiddlers) efficiently. Best wishes TT > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/75aefc63-b2ba-4258-84b6-4f8f0bd5c79f%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 12:39:50 PM UTC+1, PMario wrote: > > eg: Let's say parent-1 and parent-2 have different last-names. The child > will be transcluded into both parents and would therefore have 3 different > last-names. > Text edited in first post. -m -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/389d18d7-9334-4b3f-b454-a7e756c3b3e2%40googlegroups.com.
[tw5] Re: Tiddler Transclusion and Inheritance
Hi Mohamad, I think your example doesn't work, since the "inheritence" in this case won't hold. The "child" always needs its own last-name. eg: Let's say parent-1 and parent-2 are not married. The child will be transcluded into both parents and would therefore have 3 different last-names. In reality a child can get: 1) child gets parent-1 last-name 2) child gets parent-2 last- name 3) a combination of parent-1 and parent-2 last-name and may be 4) If child is old enough it can decide to get a completely different name. -- I think inheritance violates the tiddlers number 1 rule: A tiddler is the smallest unit of content, that makes sense on its own. have fun! mario -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5b5d8860-2852-4766-9369-643e45e53761%40googlegroups.com.
