gign...@gmail.com said:
Is it actually possible to phase lock two oscillators together cross the
distance from DC to Colorado Springs? (2400 kilometers or so). ?
I think so - if your clocks are stable enough.
There is probably a simple rule for PLL stability based on round-trip-time
and
b...@evoria.net said:
I found a picture that looks like your OCXO on Brooke Clarke's website.
Maybe he has a schematic or pinouts for the oscillator.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/Z3805A07b.jpg
More info here:
http://www.prc68.com/I/Z3805A.html
The Z3805A is very similar to the Z3801A
b...@evoria.net said:
Two days this week, there was a 3 or 4 minute outage on DirecTV as the sun
aligned with the satellite and my dish. So I was wondering what kind of
effect this has on the GPS system and especially timing receivers.
Is there any easy way to get a signal/noise reading out
br...@ko4bb.com said:
Kratos (www.kratosepd.com) do fast switching synthesiser subsystems that
can be locked to a reference..
What does fast switching mean in the context of a DDS?
What does the spectrum of a DDS look like if I switch back and forth between
2 frequencies at 1 KHz? Or
j...@jks.com said:
I made a real mistake by not running the 5370's 10 MHz oven clock, that was
available right there on a processor board pin, to a GPIO on the Beagle so
it could be accurately counted with the built-in event counter and software
overflow (that clock used to drive the
jim...@earthlink.net said:
I could hook a Prologix on the back of a PTS with GPIB, and hit it over the
ethernet, but I'm not sure I'd be able to get the steps to occur when I
want them (ethernet and determinism do not go well together).
Timing on Ethernet is as good as RS-232 if you have a
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk said:
Anyway, later today (tomorrow ??) I will post a plot of frequency vs time.
The question is though, how long is thing thing likely to take too cool?
I'd expect an exponential decay so you need to specify how close to ambient
you want to get. I'd guess a
hau...@keteu.org said:
I am trying to avoid an extra A/D step here, but I have no experience with
it. Post-filter, I am satisfied that a simple one-bit D/A with passive
filtering will get me to 16 bits resolution for the VCXO control, enough for
ppb resolution.
One bit D/As need a filter.
hau...@keteu.org said:
It was the other end of the PLL I was hoping to get some pointers on.
Specifically, I can implement the dividers and the standard double-flip-flop
PFD, but what best replaces the charge pump in a fully-digital
implementation? I will have down/up signals which are
vesoa...@deea.isel.ipl.pt said:
I would suggest some 3.3V logic (inverter) gate with 5V tolerant inputs
from Little Logic TI portfolio. There are buffered and unbuffered gate
available.
What's the advantage of a chip over a pair of resistors?
hau...@keteu.org said:
I have seen a resistive
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk said:
Unfortunately Keysight have now sold all the cables, but do have the front
panel overlay which is arguably the most critical item.
Spending £500 on 5 cables and a front panel overly is more attractive than
spending £8000 on an upgrading the model.
For
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk said:
Two people responded - one says a OCXO and the other an TCXO!!
The warmup time is I think an hour, but clearly that is not the time for an
oven to warm up.
An hour seems like a reasonable OCXO warm-up time to me. You might get
faster warm-up times, but
he...@pericynthion.org said:
Since the GPS signals come from all parts of the sky this is pretty much
required, unless you're using fancy beam steering techniques.
How hard is the beam steering relative to everything else?
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paulsw...@gmail.com said:
Did try lots of frequencies and divider math to come up with a simple LO
scheme for 61 or 59 KHz. Messy.
There are companies that will make a crystal or oscillator at any frequency
you want at a not silly price. Delivery is not overnight.
Beware: There are several
I don't think you can use a GPS almanac from 2012.
Why not? Just pretend that the time you want is 2012+1024 weeks. You won't
be able to watch it pass through the magic rollover time, but you can verify
that it works correctly once it gets past that magic time.
Crazy question
oldmath...@gmail.com said:
has anyone suggested a 50R in series with a capacitor as termination? no
DC currents
I've seen that suggestion before. I don't remember where. It was a long
time ago.
In order to work, the R-C time constant has to be long relative to the
rise/fall time of the
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
[snip long discussion of PID/PLL]
Make sure you have a damping factor of at least 3.
Is that a general rule for PIDs or something specific to PLLs/GPSDOs?
Where did the value 3 come from?
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saidj...@aol.com said:
here are some plots from two GPSDOs, one series terminated (CSAC GPSDO),
and one load-terminated (Agilent 58503A) product.
Nice pictures. Thanks.
My reading of your pictures is that the 58503A has a weak driver. Do you
have a TBolt?
... and there is a little hump
matthias.je...@gmx.de said:
So I took the unit to work and hooked it to a signal generator capable of
simulating GPS, GNSS etc...
Neat. Thanks, both for running the experiment and for sharing the results.
Thunderbolt will be usable after July, 2017 - I?d be happy to live with a
wrong
Also, another issue with the end termination happens when driving very long
coax cables: RG-142 for example has about 60 Ohms center conductor
resistance and 7.5 Ohms shield resistance at 1km length.
RG-142 is far from low-loss. Does anybody use it at that length?
What's the rise time
dave.martind...@gmail.com said:
Is there any reason (other than cost) not to both series-terminate the
source and parallel-terminate the sink?
With both series and parallel termination, the signal at the receiver is 1/2
the output level of the output driver. That doesn't work well if you
tmiller11...@verizon.net said:
So does adding ~80 pF per meter or 8 nF for 100 meters (RG58) to your output
have any effect on the risetime? Because that is what it will see with an
open cable.
That way of thinking only works if the risetime is long relative to the cable
length. In this
b...@evoria.net said:
Note: The DAC module is designed specifically for audio applications and is
not recommended for control type applications.
I had hoped that it wouldn't be a problem for driving an OCXO, but my
mistake. The datasheet also notes that the DAC has 16-bit resolution but
kb...@n1k.org said:
The biggest problem comes from crystal spurs rather than crystal Q.
What's the mechanism for making spurs with a crystal?
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To
d...@irtelemetrics.com said:
If I had 10Mhz or some other high frequency on the EFC line, would a typical
OCXO respond to that?
Some VCXOs actually specify their bandwidth. High audio is sometimes useful.
I haven't seen anything beyond that, but I'm just listening to discussions
like this
This topic comes up every few years.
I found an interesting thread back in late 2006.
Typical EFC frequency response (bandwidth) of a OCXO
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2006-December/022758.html
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cdel...@juno.com said:
The Dc to Dc is running at 22Khz and maybe 20 Watts.
Can't find any info that would allow me to decide on a proper substitute.
Anybody out there have any data on this?
National Semiconductor had a few app-notes that were cookbooks for using
their chips to build DC-DC
kb...@n1k.org said:
If you have a temperature stable environment (or create one) you can get
some very good results with an (good) Rb locked to a (good) GPS via a proper
long time constant setup. Its not easy, but it can be done.
What's the temperature sensitivity of the typical
tn...@toneh.demon.co.uk said:
Tony, any chance you could do a quick measurement at 8 MHz -
I think that should be a more constant period. ...
No problem, its still set-up. As you'd expect its rock solid at 8MHz with
no visible jitter.
I don't think you have fixed the problem, just made
komne...@yahoo.co.jp said:
My Z3805A has the trouble that the date on SATSTAT is not changed by command
(:GPS:INIT:DATE (yr,mo,day)).
Anyone can advice me for the above.
It may only work if you send the date before it locks to GPS. That is you
need to do something like:
power off
saidj...@aol.com said:
its not a GPSDO though, not even a simple one :)
It does not discipline an oscillator. It generates the output by
mathematically calculating how many phases it has to add/drop in a second,
then digitally adds/drops/extends/retards the phase of the output clock to
Tue evening, I went to a talk on Auroras and Solar Storms. It was targeted
as the general public so they didn't get into any technical details.
One of the pictures showed a GPS setup. They were using it to measure free
electrons in the ionosphere.
A friend found this in case anybody wants
ch...@chriswilson.tv said:
I have 4 windows based PC's on my home network, for years i have used
Meinberg or an equivalent to set the PC time. I was wondering if I could, or
should, use my permanently on Trimble Thunderbolt to set the PC clocks? Any
advantages or disadvantages. I believe
jim...@earthlink.net said:
Does anyone have a feel for what the minimum size reflector at some small
distance would be detectable on a GPS timing receiver? WOuld you be able to
see a change of a 1 meter square reflector 10 meters away?
I suspect it depends on the elevation angle of the
b...@evoria.net said:
So, I may throw another cap on it, but it seems to be clean down to what I
can measure at the OCXO on my old Tek 455 with an X10 probe.
Another thing to consider when chasing that sort of problem: How much are you
picking up with your scope probe and/or its ground wire?
It turned out that ribbon cable appropriate for this application was either
not available or too expensive.
Are standard disk cables a reasonable length? (and a pinout you can use)
I don't know the details, but there are two types of disk cables. The old
style uses standard 40 pin ribbon
PS: What sort of Bandwidth is found in GPS front ends and antennae?
Ballpark of 20-50 Mhz.
The data sheet for the Motorola patch antenna from TAPR says 45 MHz for the 3
db points.
https://www.tapr.org/gps_ant1a.html
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normanliz...@gmail.com said:
Turns out that the original receiver was a svee6.
Let me know if you want a real SVee6. I've got 2 left. :)
---
I also have a pair of small boards that I don't have any info on.
PCB says Trimble, 39818-00-C. The 00 is written in by hand.
There is a big chip
I think you can buy multi-frequency receivers. Remember GPS is not longer
the only system. There are stelites from the US, Europe, Russia, China and
Japan.Adding more more frequencies allows the receiver to detect multi
path and makes it harder to jam but the timing is not greatly
bro...@pacific.net said:
I expect that there's date and time information being sent in the header of
every phone call, maybe even before the first ring along with the Caller ID
info.
Wiki says CallerID is sent between the first and second ring, and includes
the date and time.
docdai...@gmail.com said:
Ice water and boiling water coupled with altitude will give you two points.
Has anybody used a good thermometer to measure air pressure?
How much does the measured temperature vary between just barely boiling and a
good roiling boil? Or in various locations within
alw.k...@gmail.com said:
Apparently, the forward biased silicon diode was temperature sensitive
enough that a small D.C. amplifier could drive a meter to read-out with
reasonable accuracy. Well, maybe not accurate by Time-nut standards but
close enough for its intended purpose.
I think that
mafl...@theflynn.org said:
I am working on a project where I need to transfer 1PPS approximately 120
meters between buildings.I cam borrow a pair of 62.5 fibers from IT/
telco to do so.
Google for fiber IRIG gets plenty of hits.
Raw PPS is a nasty case for fibers. You need some sort
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
1) It is set to use an NTP server called time.windows.com
to set the clock.
3) The above is working as well as it has ever worked.
Nothing has changed at Microsoft's end.
It may be more complicated than that.
time.windows.com is a cname for
edgecombe...@gmail.com said:
I am needing a GPS source of precise time, in three flavours - 10MHz (or
so), 1PPS, and ethernet NTP. In the beginning, the NTP will be most
important, and as time goes on, I'll need the 1PPS signal.
...
If a static CW12-TIM ethernet clock could be made, I would
ja...@extremeoverclocking.com said:
A while back I even tried an old SveeSix receiver and those work too in the
TS2100.
I have a couple of SveeSixs in case anybody ever needs one.
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time-nuts mailing
paulsw...@gmail.com said:
Trying to keep the message and attachements below the 128KB limit. I send a
119KB message and it gets held as a 165KB message. Can someone help me to
understand the difference please?
My guess would be base64 encoding? For binary files, you only get 6 bits per
paulsw...@gmail.com said:
The key to these systems is that the transmitters have very good references.
In the US at least we have no requirement for that level of stability on the
MW broadcasts. Though evidently some stations are quite good. I think I have
a list some place have to re-look.
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
For GPS you need to also include the microseconds long pulse per second. I
think it might by the very short duty cycle of the pulse that makes it hard
to transmit using RS-232 style signaling.
The problem with short PPS pulses is that some PCs don't catch
To you and Hal who suggested it, is this unit suitable for outputing a1pps
timing signal? Wouldn't the long serial option Hal suggestion mess that
up, vs. using this method to put the Fastax as close as possible to a
system which which would have the systems gpio and serial ports attached?
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
I tried using a long serial cable. Just because I had some 100 feet of
cat-5 wire already installed. It did not work reliably I was using a MAX232
chip as a driver.
Were you using it as 8 separate wires or 4 pairs?
I'd expect RS-232 to work over 100 ft of
jl.on...@free.fr said:
AFAIK, the differential variant of RS-232 is RS-485. I'm not sure about the
levels.
RS-422 is the basic version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-422
RS-485 is the multipoint version.
Interesting comment from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-485
The EIA once
jwsm...@jwsss.com said:
I want a long run because where I plan to use it is some distance from
clear line of site.
It's often easier to use a long serial cable rather than a long antenna cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321295751672
This one happens to be 5 meters long and is active. ...
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
If your PRS-10 runs at +750 ns on every pulse then it has a frequency offset
of
It took me a while to parse that correctly.
In case anybody else is having the same problem, it works better for me if it
says something like:
If your PRS-10 offset gains
namic...@gmail.com said:
Fibre optic would seem to be the answer for protection.
Assuming I use fibers for the data, how do I safely get power to the other
end?
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t...@leapsecond.com said:
Yes, I remember that I cut off the PS-2 connector before the UPS truck even
left the neighborhood. You are then left with nice 0/+5/Tx/Rx wires, which
is all you need for navigation and status. For 1PPS timing, in either the
serial or USB version, unscrew the case
daniel.bu...@ieee.org said:
I have a HP/Symm 58530A that has the correct time, but date keeps defaulting
to 1994, Nov, 4 after GPS Lock. The pre-lock is 1996, so I do see a change
when it locks, just to the wrong date.time is exactly correct and
tracks.
Any ideas?
That looks like the
Always locate your DUTs physically orthogonal to each other.
Unless you have 3 clocks. (and everybody knows what happens if you only have
2)
From an old time-nuts message (Mar, 2009)
Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the
American millionaire who had three
[Structure of Earth's core]
jim...@earthlink.net said:
Molten, but it's a composite material under a lot of pressure, so the
transition between liquid and solid isn't like between ice and water.
Think cold peanut butter.
Seismic evidence is how they knew it was liquid in the first place.
thol...@woh.rr.com said:
I'm not sure my Z3801 or any of my navigation receivers have the necessary
resolution to see even 10 mm.
In normal operation (post survey), a Z3801A knows the location and uses
that to work out a better time and/or the time with fewer satellites. So you
won't be
wb0...@yahoo.com said:
I built a small CMOS divider connected to the UT+ 1 PPS output...
What do you mean by CMOS? Old 4000 series parts or HC or ... ?
Here's the problem: my counts vary significantly (+/- 1 or more) from
cycle to cycle, which is much higher than expected based on 50 nS
Then I accidently touched the PPS wire to ground and fried the PPS output.
A short (duration) short (connection) to ground is unlikely to kill the
output buffer.
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We'd have to guess the correct binary command to pt it into NMEA mode
One quick approach is to let gpsd try. It's very good at figuring out what
sort of device you have.
I normally use gpsmon. By default, it doesn't send anything, just listens
while searching baud rates. The i
The ref output is the minimal delay through the chip covering the input and
output pad buffers. It will vary slightly with temperature and voltage.
There are no negative delays in that sort of chip. It's just a bunch of
gates/buffers with a carefully calibrated delay. (For a negative delay,
n...@lazygranch.com said:
You have to wonder who made this executive decision to have the cape cover
rather important pins.
How often do you need the serial port after you get SSH working?
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time-nuts
hol...@hotmail.com said:
Ahh, but with Lady Heather you can specify the time zone offset (down to
the second) and the when the daylight savings time switchovers occur. And
from experience, I can tell you that the code to do it is a royal pain in
the ass... not all that hard to do, but a
wb0...@yahoo.com said:
As I am not using windows, I cannot make use of application program there to
test my interface. I do not wish to implement NTP on Linux as my eventual
target is not Linux, it is just my initial test environment.
You can use ntpd on Linux for initial testing.
You can
tn...@toneh.demon.co.uk said:
Can anyone point to figures for a typical non-TXCO low cost oscillator, 10
or 16MHz?
In general, low cost oscillators make pretty good thermometers.
I think you have a much better chance of getting good results if you are
willing to post-process the data.
I
tn...@toneh.demon.co.uk said:
In general, low cost oscillators make pretty good thermometers.
True, but it's short term stability that matters here - over 10s of seconds
the temperature shouldn't change much - especially if a bit of insulation
is used around the oscillator.
Ballpark is 1
br...@lloyd.com said:
As I think about the geometry of satellite position and path length, it
seems to me that, since the geometry is determined by the antenna position
and not the receiver position, additional antenna cable introduces a fixed
delay value and hence a fixed constant that gets
j...@jtmiller.com said:
I spent some time reading the uBlox-6 documentation. I found the TIM-TP ubx
message and format. I see that there is also the ability to feed back to the
uBlox-6 time shift info for the PPS in 1ns increments.
Does it make sense to feed the TIM-TP info back this way to
What are using high school labs to time motion physics experiments?
Video cameras.
There are LED gadgets that blink fast enough to work well for that sort of
thing.
www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/ScienceOfBaseballTour.pdf
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b...@evoria.net said:
The reference pages indicate that a PPS interface is required.
Most times when somebody says that PPS is required, they leave off the for
decent timekeeping.
I don't have a UT+, but I'd be very surprised if NTP didn't work without PPS.
You can add noselect to the
i...@blackmountainforge.com said:
My concern is that the moving balance wheel could have an eddy current
induced into it and the resulting magnetic field might cause it to slow
down.
If that's a problem, it should be possible to measure it. That assumes the
pickup works when near but not
erm1ea...@ermione.com said:
In the lab, I would like to have an event counter that can double as
frequency/period counter, with maximum clock rate in the order of the tens
of Hz or so, better with TIC function (aka chronometer). Resolution need
not be better than 1/100s, counts to , but
csteinm...@yandex.com said:
(Note that a 256 cycles per second error is 51 PPM at 5 MHz.)
You need a bit for the sign. That leaves only 25.6 PPM error from nominal,
51.2 peak-peak. Half that at 10 MHz.
In the real world, you should be able to trust that any oscillator that is
chosen
rich...@karlquist.com said:
Still, there was no way to guarantee that a crystal in the future would
never have a jump or sudden change in aging.
What was really needed was an ensemble of oscillators, but that was not
economically competitive with rubidium.
How many would you need? Is 3
dho...@gmail.com said:
The 32F4 (like lots of similar ARMs) uses a PLL to generate the internal
clocks from much lower frequency clock or crystal. Has anyone quantified
the stability of the synthesised clock?
I'm not familiar with the 32F4, but most of the SOC type ARM chips have ways
to
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
2) then switch to a mode where we look only at the last few bits of the
counter. I think this will actually perform better than mode #1 above
because there is zero chance of the two interrupts happening at the same
time causing your PPS sample to be delayed
I have a large LC tank, with a very lossy inductor. ...
So the question is, when actively driving a tank circuit, how do you know
you are driving it with the same frequency ad the same phase it naturally
oscillates at.
If it's lossy, the peak will be broad so tuning the driving frequency
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
My plan was to eventually fix this in software. Using ultra precision
resisters is not a good fix. I'm using normal 5% 1/4W resisters.
I don't think I will get stuck. if a step is to small it will simply move
up the next DAC value. The I term in the PID
t...@leapsecond.com said:
You only need enough bits to cover the worst case OCXO frequency drift or
the worst case GPS jitter error, per second. For example, if your OCXO stays
accurate to 1 ppm it can't possibly drift more than 1 us per second.
Similarly, it's a safe assumption that your GPS
But I still need to count all the cycles in the second and can't just let a
8 or 16 bit counter run free. The reason is I don't know where the
overflow happens. Overflow is not in sync with PPS.
OK this might work. I hope it does as it would allow a bit of code to be
removed. Let's
kd0...@mninter.net said:
I should have said warm start, not cold. I was referring to the code, not
the oscillator. So tell me, the OCXO is warm, there's no previous EFC
information to draw upon, and the oscillator is off-frequency by more than
can be measured with, let's say eight timer bits.
kd0...@mninter.net said:
Precisely my point. My oscillator's tuning range and the timer frequency and
the sampling interval dictated the minimum number of timer bits needed. In
my case, as I recall, eight was not enough. Once locked, yes, but not
initially.
I googled for TCXO tuning-range
Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple
Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.
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hol...@hotmail.com said:
I'm not sure how the Arduino environment handles interrupts, but in C you
need to declare any variables altered by an interrupt as volatile so that
the compiler optimization routines know not to assume they contain known
values.
Good point.
Also any code that
Actaully I don't care much about an off by one count because the problem
is corrected in the next second. If I happen to miss a count one second the
very next second this shows up as an extra count.I notice that something
like this happens every few hundred seconds.
I think you can
But I think you over looked one point that makes this project easier: We
KNOW 100% for certain that the interrupts happen only once per second. So
the foreground code knows for certain it has exclusive access to shared
variables for a given period of time. There is zero chance of a problem
I've been watching the discussions and graphs for a while. ADEV seems
appropriate for cases where the noise pattern is nice. How does ADEV work
if the noise isn't nice? Are there alternatives? What's the mathematical
term for the type of noise that works well with ADEV?
I can think of 3
[Nice description. Thanks.]
wd6...@gmail.com said:
I'm sure the short-term stability isn't as good as a PLL, but averaging the
errors over such a long period does have the advantage of making the
sawtooth error pretty much irrelevant.
You don't believe in hanging bridges?
What do you mean
wd6...@gmail.com said:
I'm sorry, I don't recognize the reference to hanging bridges.
I guess it was a good thing I mentioned it. Sometimes I feel like a broken
record. It gets discussed here occasionally. There will be lots of comments
in the archives.
Starter version:
tvb: Motorola
jim...@earthlink.net said:
Has anyone seen a similar behavior? I've tried the power cycling, and the
Garmin reset command. I've not done the clear non-volatile memory
which makes it forget the almanac.
I had one GPS-18x LVC go insane. I don't remember the details. I think it
didn't
martin.burni...@burnicki.net said:
Please note under Windows you should configure all upstream servers with a
line reading
server aa.bb.cc.dd iburst minpoll 6 maxpoll 6
There are lots of times when reducing maxpoll is reasonable, but I think an
unqualified suggestion is not appropriate.
n1...@dartmouth.edu said:
I am surprised it took them this long. A number of satellite telemetry
systems can use doppler as a matter of course for locating transmitters,
such as Iridium and Argos.
It's more complicated than just computing the Doppler. You also have to
figure out what the
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
I did a temporary hack on the PID code to convert the D-term into I^2 term,
by integrating the integrator output. First attempt was indeed quite
resonant just to show that I was in the unsafe region. Backing down on the
strength of the component sure did
Does anybody have data on the drift of Rs or Cs?
Rule of thumb:
...
Ah, thanks. But by Rs and Cs I meant plural or R/resistor and C/capacitor.
I know they change a lot with temperature, but how much do they drift if the
temperature is constant?
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b...@evoria.net said:
Thanks for the response. I've got a UT+ in the parts box. But that's not
the problem I'm trying to solve. I'm trying to make the best GPSDO that I
can make using a nav receiver at the moment. Call it an obsession if you
like. It's OK if I don't have corrections to
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
The assumption NTP makes is that you can judge the quality of a server by
the variance (of jitter) in the time it reports.
I think it's more complicated than that.
I think it also includes the non-jitter part of the round trip time. NTP
assumes the path is
ja...@extremeoverclocking.com said:
If there was some sort of feature in NTP (maybe there already is???), or
even a separate program that could test a list of NTP servers to try and
pick the lowest latency, I think that could have a positive benefit on
better time transfer.
The current
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