Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?
Le 19 févr. 2014 à 01:05, Tom Knox a écrit : Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some time. I think they are a great company with some good products, but there are a few real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in the past a genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach them if I could enlist your help in addressing potential changes to improve the product. Thanks; Thomas Knox If they are steering the VCXXO,OCXO from the Ext. Ref. , then they are in effect calibrating it. Why not remember the applied EFC when they get phase lock? That can be applied when the internal timebase is selected. It couldn't be that they might lose the chance to sell a signal generator ;-), as calibration needs a square wave input, and the Ext. Ref In is ignored. From: li...@rtty.us Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Hi Well at least this got me digging a little. If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz as an external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO option and 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are still using the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 era). The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a bit of a surprise …. No sticker on mine. Bob On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com wrote: TomK, If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a few years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That plus the poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were cutting corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they thought this was ok for a bench instrument. Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than can actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter). I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can help them fix the problem. /tvb On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I have asked Agilent if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal applied. I thought Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal applied. These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen configured with a small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I think) that appeared to Switch the internal reference out of circuit. Agilent would not share information on the option. My question to Agilent is why sell an option and be unwilling to say what it does or how your stock unit functions? Thomas Knox From: t...@leapsecond.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:38:28 -1000 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Bob, I'm wondering if you (or any else) has measured the PLL performance of the 53230-series? I agree it will clean up the crud but this assumes the ext ref is dirtier than the internal osc. What I found instead was that if you use a good external ref the PLL actually makes it worse. This was very disappointing. The XO version of the counter performed worse than the OCXO version even with a maser as the ext reference. Did your reading of the schematic show a way to directly use the ext ref, bypassing the noisy PLL? The other thing I found was that the ref out signal was a very polluted copy of the ref in. /tvb (i5s) On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:04 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you dig into the schematics (when they supplied them … ): The external reference goes into a phase detector. It’s one of those digital ones that can lock up to many inputs. You could feed 3. MHz in as a standard input as well as 0.5, 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 MHz. The internal oscillator (or an internal oscillator) is phase locked to the external input through a fairly narrow analog loop. The idea is to clean up the crud on the standard line. With no external reference, the PLL drops out and you go back to what ever the local reference is. Yes there’s a little more to it than that and no the circuit is not exactly the same on every counter HP ever made. Bob On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:55 AM, wb6bnq wb6...@cox.net wrote: Hi Mike, The most likely answer is when you select external time base for an input, it disables the connection for the internal oscillator. The external input signal is probably also routed straight
Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?
Mike, They are already giving you another way to calibrate the unit, different from how you think they should have done it and you are pulling out the statist card and accusing them of being greedy capitalists? Come on, thats backseat driving. Be happy they invested millions of their own money and put out a more or less affordable new counter in a market flooded with good low-cost used counters. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Feb 19, 2014, at 0:33, mike cook michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote: Le 19 févr. 2014 à 01:05, Tom Knox a écrit : Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some time. I think they are a great company with some good products, but there are a few real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in the past a genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach them if I could enlist your help in addressing potential changes to improve the product. Thanks; Thomas Knox If they are steering the VCXXO,OCXO from the Ext. Ref. , then they are in effect calibrating it. Why not remember the applied EFC when they get phase lock? That can be applied when the internal timebase is selected. It couldn't be that they might lose the chance to sell a signal generator ;-), as calibration needs a square wave input, and the Ext. Ref In is ignored. From: li...@rtty.us Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Hi Well at least this got me digging a little. If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz as an external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO option and 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are still using the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 era). The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a bit of a surprise …. No sticker on mine. Bob On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com wrote: TomK, If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a few years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That plus the poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were cutting corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they thought this was ok for a bench instrument. Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than can actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter). I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can help them fix the problem. /tvb On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I have asked Agilent if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal applied. I thought Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal applied. These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen configured with a small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I think) that appeared to Switch the internal reference out of circuit. Agilent would not share information on the option. My question to Agilent is why sell an option and be unwilling to say what it does or how your stock unit functions? Thomas Knox From: t...@leapsecond.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:38:28 -1000 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Bob, I'm wondering if you (or any else) has measured the PLL performance of the 53230-series? I agree it will clean up the crud but this assumes the ext ref is dirtier than the internal osc. What I found instead was that if you use a good external ref the PLL actually makes it worse. This was very disappointing. The XO version of the counter performed worse than the OCXO version even with a maser as the ext reference. Did your reading of the schematic show a way to directly use the ext ref, bypassing the noisy PLL? The other thing I found was that the ref out signal was a very polluted copy of the ref in. /tvb (i5s) On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:04 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you dig into the schematics (when they supplied them … ): The external reference goes into a phase detector. It’s one of those digital ones that can lock up to many inputs. You could feed 3. MHz in as a standard input as well as 0.5, 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 MHz. The internal oscillator (or an internal oscillator) is phase locked to the external input through a fairly narrow analog loop. The idea is to clean up the crud on the standard line.
Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?
That was a wink, Said, not a howl... Le 19 févr. 2014 à 17:25, Said Jackson a écrit : Mike, They are already giving you another way to calibrate the unit, different from how you think they should have done it and you are pulling out the statist card and accusing them of being greedy capitalists? Come on, thats backseat driving. Be happy they invested millions of their own money and put out a more or less affordable new counter in a market flooded with good low-cost used counters. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Feb 19, 2014, at 0:33, mike cook michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote: Le 19 févr. 2014 à 01:05, Tom Knox a écrit : Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some time. I think they are a great company with some good products, but there are a few real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in the past a genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach them if I could enlist your help in addressing potential changes to improve the product. Thanks; Thomas Knox If they are steering the VCXXO,OCXO from the Ext. Ref. , then they are in effect calibrating it. Why not remember the applied EFC when they get phase lock? That can be applied when the internal timebase is selected. It couldn't be that they might lose the chance to sell a signal generator ;-), as calibration needs a square wave input, and the Ext. Ref In is ignored. From: li...@rtty.us Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Hi Well at least this got me digging a little. If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz as an external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO option and 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are still using the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 era). The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a bit of a surprise …. No sticker on mine. Bob On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com wrote: TomK, If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a few years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That plus the poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were cutting corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they thought this was ok for a bench instrument. Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than can actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter). I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can help them fix the problem. /tvb On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I have asked Agilent if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal applied. I thought Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal applied. These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen configured with a small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I think) that appeared to Switch the internal reference out of circuit. Agilent would not share information on the option. My question to Agilent is why sell an option and be unwilling to say what it does or how your stock unit functions? Thomas Knox From: t...@leapsecond.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:38:28 -1000 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Bob, I'm wondering if you (or any else) has measured the PLL performance of the 53230-series? I agree it will clean up the crud but this assumes the ext ref is dirtier than the internal osc. What I found instead was that if you use a good external ref the PLL actually makes it worse. This was very disappointing. The XO version of the counter performed worse than the OCXO version even with a maser as the ext reference. Did your reading of the schematic show a way to directly use the ext ref, bypassing the noisy PLL? The other thing I found was that the ref out signal was a very polluted copy of the ref in. /tvb (i5s) On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:04 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you dig into the schematics (when they supplied them … ): The external reference goes into a phase detector. It’s one of those digital ones that can lock up to many inputs. You could feed 3. MHz in as a standard input as well as 0.5, 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 MHz. The internal oscillator (or an internal oscillator) is phase locked to the
Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?
I hope I have not come off sounding like that Said, I simply would like to see a great product better, I am hoping/committed to work with Agilent toward a better product if they are interested. And in the past I have found they are interested in our feedback. The 53132A was revolutionary in it's day, but with advances in time and freq there is now a market for a 14 or 15 digit counter. I am still attempting to individually characterize each item in my time and freq system and understand their strengths and weaknesses. And hope to learn more about the 53230A in the coming weeks. But TVB's comments in particular seemed consistent with my impressions so far. I would welcome your thoughts on the 53230A. Thanks;l Thomas Knox CC: time-nuts@febo.com From: saidj...@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 08:25:28 -0800 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Mike, They are already giving you another way to calibrate the unit, different from how you think they should have done it and you are pulling out the statist card and accusing them of being greedy capitalists? Come on, thats backseat driving. Be happy they invested millions of their own money and put out a more or less affordable new counter in a market flooded with good low-cost used counters. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Feb 19, 2014, at 0:33, mike cook michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote: Le 19 févr. 2014 à 01:05, Tom Knox a écrit : Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some time. I think they are a great company with some good products, but there are a few real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in the past a genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach them if I could enlist your help in addressing potential changes to improve the product. Thanks; Thomas Knox If they are steering the VCXXO,OCXO from the Ext. Ref. , then they are in effect calibrating it. Why not remember the applied EFC when they get phase lock? That can be applied when the internal timebase is selected. It couldn't be that they might lose the chance to sell a signal generator ;-), as calibration needs a square wave input, and the Ext. Ref In is ignored. From: li...@rtty.us Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Hi Well at least this got me digging a little. If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz as an external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO option and 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are still using the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 era). The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a bit of a surprise …. No sticker on mine. Bob On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com wrote: TomK, If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a few years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That plus the poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were cutting corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they thought this was ok for a bench instrument. Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than can actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter). I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can help them fix the problem. /tvb On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I have asked Agilent if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal applied. I thought Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal applied. These questions were related to several 53132A's I have seen configured with a small board back near the Ext Ref input (OPT H01 I think) that appeared to Switch the internal reference out of circuit. Agilent would not share information on the option. My question to Agilent is why sell an option and be unwilling to say what it does or how your stock unit functions? Thomas Knox From: t...@leapsecond.com Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:38:28 -1000 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on,but nobody in? Bob, I'm wondering if you (or any else) has measured the PLL performance of the 53230-series? I agree it will
Re: [time-nuts] TIC model
Hi Bruce, What are the tradeoffs with using different values for R1? I have no practical experience at this, so all I can do is rely on the models. Does the fact that R2 is in the PIC, and C1 is so tiny, make the value of R1 of less importance? On my PIC, they list C1 as 5pf, R2 as effectively about 7K, and C2 120pf. Bob From: Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TIC model The attached circuit schematic illustrates how this might be implemented. Faster logic devices can be substituted. R2, C2 approximate the equivalent input circuit of the ADC. R2, C2 values will vary for each ADC. The Shift register which acts as a synchroniser and produces various trigger signals is clocked at 10MHz (assumed to be the uP instruction cycle clock rate) The RC network charge time varies between 1 and 2 shift register clock periods ( ie a charge time from 100ns to 200ns). Sampling a time stamp counter clocked at the same frequency as the shift register is only required if the GPSDO local oscillator has a potential initial offset of 100ppb or more. If missing PPS detection is required then a PPS time stamp counter with a range of several seconds is desirable. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Valentines Day Love Numbers
Hi: In the video about the Full Moon Curse (that's about measuring the distance to each of the 5 retro-reflectors on the moon to 1 mm) there's a plot showing the elevation change in the Apache Point Observatory of about 20 inches peak to peak. It's exactly the type of change the effects pendulum clocks. I asked Tom Murphy if he used GPS to get the elevation plot and the answer is that it came from the gravitymeter with the use of Love numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_number - has links to papers on Earth tides Also see patent 3449956 and GWR instrument link at: http://www.prc68.com/I/Pendulums.shtml This means that the concrete piers where many Cesium clocks and GPS reference stations are located are bobbing up and down as if they were on a ocean, although only tens of inches. I think there was an earlier post saying this puts a limit (E-16?) on the ultimate quality of a clock because of it's movement. I wonder if NIST has one of the GWR gravitymeters on a pier and uses that to discipline their fountain clocks for the elevation change of the pier or if that's done for the GPS reference antennas? -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Valentines Day Love Numbers
bro...@pacific.net said: I wonder if NIST has one of the GWR gravitymeters on a pier and uses that to discipline their fountain clocks for the elevation change of the pier or if that's done for the GPS reference antennas? Radio astronomers pay serious attention to earth tides. For VLBI, they need to know where their antennas are located down to a fraction of a wavelength. An example, from google: Tidal deformations of the earth from VLBI observations http://link.springer.com/article/10.1134%2FS1063773712050027 -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?
Sorry early morning rant, There are counters out there already that can do 14/15 digits: tsc5125A and the Miles box for example. Very difficult to get a reference into that counter that can match and provide that type of stability. I am sure Agilent would love to hear our feedback probably as long as we don't accuse them of leaving out features purely as a profit motive. Heck Apple sells $160 production cost iPads for $800 and doesn't even include a calculator app for free. People don't care and they end up with $100+ billion cash in the bank. I'd rather have Agilent charge a bit more and have them still around 10 years from now. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Feb 19, 2014, at 10:08, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I hope I have not come off sounding like that Said, I simply would like to see a great product better, I am hoping/committed to work with Agilent toward a better product if they are interested. And in the past I have found they are interested in our feedback. The 53132A was revolutionary in it's day, but with advances in time and freq there is now a market for a 14 or 15 digit counter. I am still attempting to individually characterize each item in my time and freq system and understand their strengths and weaknesses. And hope to learn more about the 53230A in the coming weeks. But TVB's comments in particular seemed consistent with my impressions so far. I would welcome your thoughts on the 53230A. Thanks;l Thomas Knox CC: time-nuts@febo.com From: saidj...@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 08:25:28 -0800 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Mike, They are already giving you another way to calibrate the unit, different from how you think they should have done it and you are pulling out the statist card and accusing them of being greedy capitalists? Come on, thats backseat driving. Be happy they invested millions of their own money and put out a more or less affordable new counter in a market flooded with good low-cost used counters. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Feb 19, 2014, at 0:33, mike cook michael.c...@sfr.fr wrote: Le 19 févr. 2014 à 01:05, Tom Knox a écrit : Thanks Tom and Bob, I have been thinking of contacting Agilent for some time. I think they are a great company with some good products, but there are a few real blind spots in some current products. I also have seen in the past a genuine interest in listening. I would be willing to approach them if I could enlist your help in addressing potential changes to improve the product. Thanks; Thomas Knox If they are steering the VCXXO,OCXO from the Ext. Ref. , then they are in effect calibrating it. Why not remember the applied EFC when they get phase lock? That can be applied when the internal timebase is selected. It couldn't be that they might lose the chance to sell a signal generator ;-), as calibration needs a square wave input, and the Ext. Ref In is ignored. From: li...@rtty.us Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:00:17 -0500 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in? Hi Well at least this got me digging a little. If you grab a copy of the 53230A spec sheet and look under the external reference input, it’s pretty well described. It will accept 1, 5,10 MHz as an external reference. It will lock over a 1 ppm range with the XO option and 0.1 ppm with the OCXO option. Based on that I’d guess they are still using the same basic PLL approach as on the older counters (5335 era). The “Microsoft Windows inside” sticker on the back of the counter was a bit of a surprise …. No sticker on mine. Bob On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) t...@leapsecond.com wrote: TomK, If anyone has technical contacts deep within Agilent, let's see if this issue can be resolved. I would have bought a 53230A when it came out a few years ago but my eval units showed this clock noise problem. That plus the poor quality of the ref out made me think the designers were cutting corners, or had little experience in metrology, or maybe they thought this was ok for a bench instrument. Otherwise it's a really nice counter; the first one from Agilent than can actually do ADEV properly (since it is a time stamping counter). I should dig out my old data and send it to you. Maybe as group we can help them fix the problem. /tvb On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I have asked Agilent if stock versions of the 53230A and 53132A switched the internal oscillator out of circuit with an Ext Ref signal applied. I thought Agilent's engineer was intentionally vague but said the oscillators were indeed switched out of circuit on the counter with Ext Ref signal applied. These questions were related to several
Re: [time-nuts] strange behavior of 53230A or is the light on, but nobody in?
On 2014-02-19 22:34, Said Jackson wrote: Sorry early morning rant, There are counters out there already that can do 14/15 digits: tsc5125A and the Miles box for example. Very difficult to get a reference into that counter that can match and provide that type of stability. I am sure Agilent would love to hear our feedback probably as long as we don't accuse them of leaving out features purely as a profit motive. Heck Apple sells $160 production cost iPads for $800 and doesn't even include a calculator app for free. People don't care and they end up with $100+ billion cash in the bank. I'd rather have Agilent charge a bit more and have them still around 10 years from now. They won't be, not under that name at least. Unfortunatly they ended up with another name which will be hard to remember. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)
It may be true that WWVB is sending out a new format, but the receivers for it don't seem to exist. The exclusive rights are held by this company, which is clearly on hold while it tries to find a customer who will pay for a wafer run: http://eversetclocks.com/ I've seen this sort of thing many times before. Don't be surprised if this goes the way of AM stereo, etc. Does anyone have any positive news about this? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Looking for largest possible digits and LED preferred over LCD, under $100. Any brands to avoid? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)
Wouldn't that be nice! They implement a new format which destroys much of the installed infrastructure, then don't actually produce the 'better replacement'. How very LORAN! -John == It may be true that WWVB is sending out a new format, but the receivers for it don't seem to exist. The exclusive rights are held by this company, which is clearly on hold while it tries to find a customer who will pay for a wafer run: http://eversetclocks.com/ I've seen this sort of thing many times before. Don't be surprised if this goes the way of AM stereo, etc. Does anyone have any positive news about this? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
Most of the atomic WWVB clocks cannot be set to zero time zone offset. After considerable looking, I found one that can be set to GMT with DST disabled. Look for this one: Lacrosse Technology Model WS-8016U It also has local and RF remote temperature. I got mine at Fry's Electronics, several years ago. Larry On 2/19/2014 3:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Looking for largest possible digits and LED preferred over LCD, under $100. Any brands to avoid? Rick ... -- Best wishes, Larry McDavid W6FUB Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
LaCrosse 8055 is one of the few wall clocks I know that allows UTC time zone to be selected. BTW, I have a Casio Waveceptor watch (the cheap $30 one) and it works excellently, always acquiring WWVB signal at midnight to 2 AM here on East Coast. On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Looking for largest possible digits and LED preferred over LCD, under $100. Any brands to avoid? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
I bought the MFJ 121-B. Not LED, but I wasn't looking for that option. 73, Dick, W1KSZ On 2/19/2014 4:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Looking for largest possible digits and LED preferred over LCD, under $100. Any brands to avoid? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
Radio Shack used to have one, they may still have it, I have one, it works fine it has cca 2 tall numbers for the time, and 0.75 tall for the datum and temperature, Fries Electronics is selling one for USD35.-- also 73 KJ6UJH Alex On 2/19/2014 4:10 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: LaCrosse 8055 is one of the few wall clocks I know that allows UTC time zone to be selected. BTW, I have a Casio Waveceptor watch (the cheap $30 one) and it works excellently, always acquiring WWVB signal at midnight to 2 AM here on East Coast. On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Looking for largest possible digits and LED preferred over LCD, under $100. Any brands to avoid? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)
actually they are supposed to have general availability by the end of Q1. Will see and have no idea about the cost. Not keeping my fingers crossed at all. Regards Paul. On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Wouldn't that be nice! They implement a new format which destroys much of the installed infrastructure, then don't actually produce the 'better replacement'. How very LORAN! -John == It may be true that WWVB is sending out a new format, but the receivers for it don't seem to exist. The exclusive rights are held by this company, which is clearly on hold while it tries to find a customer who will pay for a wafer run: http://eversetclocks.com/ I've seen this sort of thing many times before. Don't be surprised if this goes the way of AM stereo, etc. Does anyone have any positive news about this? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
Thanks for the suggestions, but the MFJ121 does not display the date and the Lacrosse 8055 and 8016 do not display seconds. I need hour minutes seconds day and date. You wouldn't think that would be so hard. It looks like my only choice is this smallish wall clock (more like a desk clock): LaCrosse WS-8005U-W The seconds are in rather small type. I also do not need temperature, but I'm stuck with it apparently. All the really large clocks I have seen do not do GMT. You know this right away when they have a time zone map on the display. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
Definitely avoid BRG clocks. They are reasonably priced and look really nice on the outside but look like a high school science project inside. Plus, with both versions I purchased (while at 2 different companies), the IRIG-B option just didn't work reliably. It worked some of the time, just enough to make you think it was working. Finally, the menu system is confusing at best. Just say no... -Bob On 02/19/2014 05:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Looking for largest possible digits and LED preferred over LCD, under $100. Any brands to avoid? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
I recently bought a La Crosse, See at ebay item 360752857574, that quickly synced up to WWVB and, at least to my ability to mark a time tick, been within the second of WWV. Total cost was $43. Michael / K7HIL On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Looking for largest possible digits and LED preferred over LCD, under $100. Any brands to avoid? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Any reason why it was to by WWVB? What if it used some other means of saying accurate? The larger professional quality clocks generally don't use WWVB. If you can relax your requirements more options are open. Someone asked for this a while back and I think the simplest solution was to use a cell phone app. You can buy a way-cheap android tablet, even a used one and run a clock app on it. Some of them even simulate the red LEDs you are looking for. It will remain accurate to better than your eyes can detect. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
On 2/19/2014 6:35 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Can anyone recommend a atomic wall clock that displays in digital 24 hour UTC? Any reason why it was to by WWVB? What if it used some other means of saying accurate? The larger professional quality clocks generally don't Non technical reason. I want to use WWVB because I want to be able to mention to visitors that the clock links to an ensemble of 5071A cesium standards, and I was one of the designers of the 5071A, the actual atomic clock. I do also want to use the clock for my ham station. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Valentines Day Love Numbers
Brooke, See old posting: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2011-January/053478.html The effect is too small (~5e-17 over 6 hours) to affect GPS time transfer. /tvb On Feb 19, 2014, at 8:24 AM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi: In the video about the Full Moon Curse (that's about measuring the distance to each of the 5 retro-reflectors on the moon to 1 mm) there's a plot showing the elevation change in the Apache Point Observatory of about 20 inches peak to peak. It's exactly the type of change the effects pendulum clocks. I asked Tom Murphy if he used GPS to get the elevation plot and the answer is that it came from the gravitymeter with the use of Love numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_number - has links to papers on Earth tides Also see patent 3449956 and GWR instrument link at: http://www.prc68.com/I/Pendulums.shtml This means that the concrete piers where many Cesium clocks and GPS reference stations are located are bobbing up and down as if they were on a ocean, although only tens of inches. I think there was an earlier post saying this puts a limit (E-16?) on the ultimate quality of a clock because of it's movement. I wonder if NIST has one of the GWR gravitymeters on a pier and uses that to discipline their fountain clocks for the elevation change of the pier or if that's done for the GPS reference antennas? -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
CORRECTION: The 8005 series (with indoor temperature) does not support GMT Only the 8115 and 8119 series (with indoor and outdoor temperature) support GMT. On 2/19/2014 5:47 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: so hard. It looks like my only choice is this smallish wall clock (more like a desk clock): LaCrosse WS-8005U-W ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Valentines Day Love Numbers
On 2/19/14 10:24 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: This means that the concrete piers where many Cesium clocks and GPS reference stations are located are bobbing up and down as if they were on a ocean, although only tens of inches. My GPS friends comment when you start getting to sub-meter precision for non-differential measurements, there's a whole lot of effects that start getting in the way. ionosphere, multipath, solid earth tides, etc. They're all in the centimeters but not meters bucket. I think there was an earlier post saying this puts a limit (E-16?) on the ultimate quality of a clock because of it's movement. I wonder if NIST has one of the GWR gravitymeters on a pier and uses that to discipline their fountain clocks for the elevation change of the pier or if that's done for the GPS reference antennas? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for WWVB digital wall clock with digital 24 hour UTC display
Rick wrote: Thanks for the suggestions, but the MFJ121 does not display the date The MFJ-121 might not include the date, but some of their other large WWVB clocks do. Go to http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Categories.php?sec=226(clock products) and click on the ones that say ATOMIC. I am not sure if they all can be set to UTC but some of them say they can. MFJ products are made for radio amateurs, many of whom use UTC for 'talking around the world'. Be aware that MFJ has mixed reviews ... some of their products that they themselves assemble in Mississippi can have QC issues. Cold solder joints is the one I hear most often. Some people love 'em; others hate 'em. They are a successful business for 40+ years so I'd have to guess the lovers outweigh the haters. Andy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)
I guess my question is who has the right to grant exclusive rights for the ability to decode a very simple protocol? Was a patent actually granted for this? John On 2/19/2014 4:49 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: It may be true that WWVB is sending out a new format, but the receivers for it don't seem to exist. The exclusive rights are held by this company, which is clearly on hold while it tries to find a customer who will pay for a wafer run: http://eversetclocks.com/ I've seen this sort of thing many times before. Don't be surprised if this goes the way of AM stereo, etc. Does anyone have any positive news about this? Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)
On 2/19/2014 9:10 PM, John Marvin wrote: I guess my question is who has the right to grant exclusive rights for the ability to decode a very simple protocol? Was a patent actually granted for this? John They have exclusive rights to the IP core for their IC. I guess someone else could design their own IC... Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
