Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Hal Murray]

hol...@hotmail.com said:
> I find it hard to believe that only time-nuts GPSDOs saw any problems.

Has anybody seen troubles on other than TBolts?

> Will be interesting to see...

Yup.



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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Vlad]

I was looking to the frequency periods for 110V 60Hz main for that time:

http://www.patoka.org/OCXO/main.png
http://www.patoka.org/OCXO/main2.png

Could be coincidence. But its noticeable events at Feb 00:15 UTC and Feb 
14 01:30 UTC. The MCU counter referenced by regular OCXO (its not 
disciplined by GPS or anything).


On 2016-02-13 22:25, Mark Sims wrote:

Yes,  all satellites dropped out from 00:16:51 to 01:54:02 UTC in
Dallas, Texas.   Was tracking 5 sats then, poof, none.Global
warming?  Gravity waves?  More bogus GPS control segment uploads?
Somebody gots some 'splain to do...


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V.P.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 2/14/2016 11:20 AM, William H. Fite wrote:

They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?



When I worked for HP/Agilent, there were countless examples of
low cost instrument prototypes developed at the central research
lab (HP Labs, and successors) that were killed by the manufacturing
divisions because they would "cannibalize sales" of the incumbent
product line.  The other excuse given was that it would "divert
resources" from the incumbent product line.  Or that the sales
force wouldn't sell it because there wasn't enough commission in it.
And we couldn't sell it direct because that would ruffle too many
feathers in the field.  I helped develop a product for which we had 
large volume purchase orders from several customers and they still 
killed it.


Rick

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[time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Mark Sims]

I filed an outage report with NAVCEN via their web site and got an email back 
asking for more info (which I supplied).  I got the impression that they were 
not aware of what was going on.   Googling around also does not show any 
official reports of problems.  Rather surprising considering the various system 
that seemed to be affected and the global reach of the problem.  I find it hard 
to believe that only time-nuts GPSDOs saw any problems.   Will be interesting 
to see...

  
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Bob Camp]

HI

I can indeed think back to the 70’s and at least somewhat earlier than that. 
Without naming names (and getting 
everybody mad), there is a pretty long list of companies that had a good thing 
going through the 50’s and 60’s. 
I worked for several of them. Life was good. Big money was made in markets that 
who ever it was commanded some
insane market share. That list includes companies in the US and a *lot* of 
other places. 

Thirty to forty years later I look at the entire list and every single one of 
them was in trouble. Another ten years
later, they are gone or they are in worse trouble or they have re-organized to 
the point they have no relation to 
the original company. Each time the stories come out, it sounds like it 
happened to just one company that somehow 
“lost it’s way”. The real answer appears to be that what happened happened to 
all of them and it did so over a fairly 
short period. 

No I don’t want to get into adding names to the list. My only point is - a 
company that was great and  that is still 
here in any sort of recognizable form is doing far far better than 90+% of its 
“peers” back in the old days.

Bob 



> On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> Up to roughly the mid-1970s, even ordinary mortals, HP employees, could fly 
> first class if you were traveling on company business for HP and the flight 
> was longer than 3 hours. Even I, an lowly process engineer, included in a 
> shopping trip "back east" to Boston and Philly, got to fly first class. HP 
> sent five employees on this shopping trip—God only knows what it cost. That 
> was then, when HP had more cash than it knew what to do with.
> 
> J.
> 
> On 2/14/2016 4:48 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> I was never with HP but I bought (using Hughes Aircraft and US government 
>> money) megabucks worth of HP Instruments.  The whole facility bought 
>> millions more.  The local Tucson HP sales office had a salesman assigned 
>> just to Hughes. They showered us with catalogs, app notes, training 
>> programs, seminars and I even traveled a few times to attend programs 
>> elsewhere.  We paid for our own airfare and hotel, but breakfasts, lunches, 
>> dinners, girly shows, etc were on HP.  In discussing travel expense 
>> reporting with the rep, unlike Hughes where every penny had to be accounted 
>> for, he said his reporting consisted of counting the money in his wallet 
>> when he left and counting it again when he got back.  The difference was his 
>> expense.
>> 
>> Wes  N7WS
>> 
>> 
>> On 2/14/2016 4:05 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
>>> I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The vertical 
>>> integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant site landscaping, 
>>> which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was , "We're making our own 
>>> coal!" We not only had packaging engineers but made our own cabinets. We 
>>> made our own integrated circuits; I made the photomasks for those ICs in 
>>> the Santa Clara Division (02, the old Frequency Division) in building 
>>> 51-Lower, next to the line where the counters were wired. Good times, free 
>>> coffee.
>>> 
>>> Jeremy
>>> N6WFO
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] LIGO detects gravitational waves

[Paul Boven]

Hi PHK, everyone,

On 2016-02-14 0:30:22, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message <1E75A9592178425ABD11390EB725D060@pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes:


Yes, the interferometer is 4 km in length but they bounce the beam back
and forth 400 times so the effective length is more like 1600 km. They
keep the mirrors stationary to "picometers". They use hundreds of clever
tricks to pull this off.


It's actually more amazing than that, each arm is a resonant cavity,
so while the actual laser is only about 10W, they have about 20 kW of
photons inflight at any one time.

With 20 kiloWatt of light safety-glasses are not _that_ important any more.


This number keeps getting repeated, but I have some doubts there.

The 'finesse' of the cavity is about 1000. The view that the photons 
keep bouncing back and forth seems a bit simplistic, wouldn't it be more 
like a standing wave?


The cavity acts as a resonator, and although the instantaneous power 
would indeed be 20kW, as soon as you load that cavity, its stored energy 
would be dissipated in whoever was unlucky enough to end up in the beam. 
Given a length of 4km, it would take no more than 13 us to empty the 
cavity. And 13us times 20kW gives an energy of only 0.27 J.


The part that I am still having trouble understanding is why the two 
cavities in the arms of the interferometer help increase the 
sensitivity. Are they modulating the reflectivity of the mirrors on the 
inner testmasses so they can 'dump' both beams at the same time back 
into the half-silvered mirror?


Cheers, Paul - 73 de PEaNUT.



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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Jeremy Nichols]

Up to roughly the mid-1970s, even ordinary mortals, HP employees, could 
fly first class if you were traveling on company business for HP and the 
flight was longer than 3 hours. Even I, an lowly process engineer, 
included in a shopping trip "back east" to Boston and Philly, got to fly 
first class. HP sent five employees on this shopping trip—God only knows 
what it cost. That was then, when HP had more cash than it knew what to 
do with.


J.

On 2/14/2016 4:48 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
I was never with HP but I bought (using Hughes Aircraft and US 
government money) megabucks worth of HP Instruments.  The whole 
facility bought millions more.  The local Tucson HP sales office had a 
salesman assigned just to Hughes. They showered us with catalogs, app 
notes, training programs, seminars and I even traveled a few times to 
attend programs elsewhere.  We paid for our own airfare and hotel, but 
breakfasts, lunches, dinners, girly shows, etc were on HP.  In 
discussing travel expense reporting with the rep, unlike Hughes where 
every penny had to be accounted for, he said his reporting consisted 
of counting the money in his wallet when he left and counting it again 
when he got back.  The difference was his expense.


Wes  N7WS


On 2/14/2016 4:05 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The 
vertical integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant 
site landscaping, which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was 
, "We're making our own coal!" We not only had packaging engineers 
but made our own cabinets. We made our own integrated circuits; I 
made the photomasks for those ICs in the Santa Clara Division (02, 
the old Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, next to the 
line where the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



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[time-nuts] Power grid

[Lester Veenstra]

http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/gradientmap.html

Lester B Veenstra  MØYCM K1YCM W8YCM
les...@veenstras.com

Physical and US Postal Addresses
5 Shrine Club Drive
452 Stable Ln RFD Mail
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)


Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell+1-304-790-9192 
UK cell+44-(0)7849-248-749 
Guam Cell:  +1-671-929-8141
Jamaica: +1-876-456-8898 

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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Wes (N7WS)]

I was never with HP but I bought (using Hughes Aircraft and US government money) 
megabucks worth of HP Instruments.  The whole facility bought millions more.  
The local Tucson HP sales office had a salesman assigned just to Hughes. They 
showered us with catalogs, app notes, training programs, seminars and I even 
traveled a few times to attend programs elsewhere.  We paid for our own airfare 
and hotel, but breakfasts, lunches, dinners, girly shows, etc were on HP.  In 
discussing travel expense reporting with the rep, unlike Hughes where every 
penny had to be accounted for, he said his reporting consisted of counting the 
money in his wallet when he left and counting it again when he got back.  The 
difference was his expense.


Wes  N7WS


On 2/14/2016 4:05 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The vertical 
integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant site landscaping, 
which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was , "We're making our own 
coal!" We not only had packaging engineers but made our own cabinets. We made 
our own integrated circuits; I made the photomasks for those ICs in the Santa 
Clara Division (02, the old Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, 
next to the line where the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[James Flynn]

Rob S.  writes:

>
> Around 1/2 an hour ago ( I wasn't in front of mine when it happened ) at
> roughly 00:45 UTC the Mates went into "holdover" mode and reported "no
> Sats". I have just checked mine and it is reporting the same.. 
> 

At about 0045 Z 14FEB16 my Navman TU60 (surplus), which I run at home in 
Chatsworth (near LA) California, started throwing missing 1S pulse alarms 
indicating it was was unable to reach timing solution in position hold 
mode. Not on a par with other set-ups mentioned, but correlates with what 
was observed.

This lasted on and off through the local night.  I will have to look at 
raw data to see total time span.






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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Jeremy Nichols]

I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The vertical 
integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant site 
landscaping, which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was , 
"We're making our own coal!" We not only had packaging engineers but 
made our own cabinets. We made our own integrated circuits; I made the 
photomasks for those ICs in the Santa Clara Division (02, the old 
Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, next to the line where 
the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



On 2/14/2016 10:10 AM, Scott McGrath wrote:

HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically 
integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were often 
applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as packaging 
and or hybrid  circuit design

Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources much 
of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff so 
rapidly and undersell them.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri


On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
bottom.

It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
separate the names.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:


   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" 

Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Scott McGrath]

When in the field and one of those cheap 'disposable' instruments fail and 
pointed questions are asked   That's when you miss the quality of the old HP 
gear   And I still use the old pre Carly gear precisely because it can be 
trusted to work in adverse conditions even though one needs to wash the data 
through a computer to get the measurement features that the new stuff has built 
in

The new gear had a name at one time we called it experimenter grade.  Much of 
the new gear these days reminds me of Eico equipment in overall build quality 

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:20 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:
> 
> They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
> oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
> forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
> Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?
> 
> The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
> news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
> manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
> PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.
> 
> I'm not sure that is a bad thing.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016, Scott McGrath  > wrote:
> 
>> HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically
>> integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were
>> often applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as
>> packaging and or hybrid  circuit design
>> 
>> Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources
>> much of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff
>> so rapidly and undersell them.
>> 
>> Content by Scott
>> Typos by Siri
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test
>> equipment.
>>> Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case
>> of
>>> handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
>>> bottom.
>>> 
>>> It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
>>> keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved
>> to
>>> separate the names.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave
>> Ltd) <
>>> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
  On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <
>> time-nuts@febo.com
 wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
 unreliability of HP test equipment.
> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
 
 I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal
>> generators,
 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
 HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP
>> the
 most reliable.
 
 Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
 modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
 £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
 was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will
>> blow
 up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
 
 He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
 reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
 that.
 
 I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable
>> and
 some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable
>> than
 other decent makes.
 
 Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
 Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and
>> Impedance
 analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit
>> the
 forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get
>> no
 response.)
 
 There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
 Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best
>> choice to
 me.
 
 I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
 Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
 way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
 reflected in their higher resale values.
 
 At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,
>> though
 modern service manuals are less so.
 
 Just my opinion.
 
 Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Hal Murray]

manu...@artekmanuals.com said:
> A novice to the GPS community why are (apparently)only the Trimble units
> affected? 

It's not hard to imagine obscure firmware bugs/features that only show up in 
some devices.  Making a GPSDO adds another opportunity for quirks on the 
handoff between the GPS firmware and the GPSDO firmware.

I don't see anything interesting at that time on Garmin GPS-18/18x or KS-24361

It will be interesting to see what's behind this.


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Dr. Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

I personally knew Howard Vollum for many years and at one time R sold the TEK 
products in Europe ! Ulrich Rohde

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:28 PM, "Gregory Muir"  wrote:
> 
> Having been in the product design world (both MIL and commercial/medical) for 
> most of my life, I developed a very deep respect for HP quality and 
> reliability over the years.  It wasn't uncommon for management to peek into 
> the lab and find me poking around inside a piece of HP equipment to see how 
> the "big boys" did their designs.  It was a wonderful learning lesson.  As a 
> matter of fact, Tek was just as much in there as well but HP always seemed to 
> trump Tek's quality with respect to the robustness of  both the electronic 
> and mechanical aspects.
> 
> There were many times when involved in a design review than I would lug a 
> piece of partially disemboweled HP test gear from the lab into the meeting 
> room and say "see how it can be done?" to convince the other engineers and 
> management that a product can truly be developed without considerable effort 
> that will not only be more reliable but also simply be put tougher with more 
> thought.  And it is a well known fact that electronics engineers do not 
> necessarily have the best ideas when it comes to putting circuitry in a box.  
> And in smaller companies, there is often a belief amongst managers that 
> packaging engineers are not an affordable luxury so that responsibility is 
> thrust upon the electronic gearheads to do their best.
> 
> As a sidebar (with additional respects to Mr. Vollum and company), Bill and 
> Dave managed to foster a very Spartan company with a life and products which 
> not only greatly assisted the engineering and service communities with their 
> professions but also became a model for many businesses to follow.  It is 
> unfortunate that a CEO had to come along who had little understanding of this 
> tradition and manage to pillage the company and leave it as it now stands.  
> But the HP tradition has persevered to a great extent and the new fledgling 
> is still continuing to produce products of outstanding quality.  So I look at 
> the present standing of that ex-CEO and am silently happy that they have lost 
> their political bid for office given a possible fate of the whole nation to 
> follow in the same path.
> 
> Greg
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error plot

[Artek Manuals]

Ben et all


Business as usual here in Florida at 18:32 on Z3801A

Dave
NR1DX


On 2/14/2016 1:33 PM, Ben Hall wrote:

Interesting.  My Z3801A got really angry a bit ago but never lost
satellites:



(plus attached if this list doesn't block attachments)

thanks,
ben



--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Alex Pummer]

Quite often it works, but sometimes it does not,
not to long time ego I had to investigate one non-linearity case with a 
high mode QAM signal, there was something, what not supposed to be 
there, the only spectrum analyzer which had enough dynamic range was one 
from Rohde,

73
K6UHN
Alex
 On 2/14/2016 11:20 AM, William H. Fite wrote:

They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?

The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing.

Bill



On Sunday, February 14, 2016, Scott McGrath > wrote:


HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically
integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were
often applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as
packaging and or hybrid  circuit design

Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources
much of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff
so rapidly and undersell them.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri


On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test

equipment.

Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case

of

handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
bottom.

It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved

to

separate the names.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave

Ltd) <

drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:


   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <

time-nuts@febo.com

wrote:

Hi,
It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the

unreliability of HP test equipment.

There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.

I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal

generators,

15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP

the

most reliable.

Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
£1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will

blow

up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.

He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
that.

I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable

and

some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable

than

other decent makes.

Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and

Impedance

analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit

the

forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get

no

response.)

There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best

choice to

me.

I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
reflected in their higher resale values.

At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,

though

modern service manuals are less so.

Just my opinion.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[paul swed]

Totally agree. Disposable and cheap. Plus the companies don't intend to
stay in business but get picked up by some larger company
Still amazing for little you can pick up this modern gear and it happily
communicates with your laptop generally speaking.
Still like my 400lbs of test HP and Tek gear.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 2:20 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:

> They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
> oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
> forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
> Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?
>
> The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
> news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
> manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
> PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.
>
> I'm not sure that is a bad thing.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016, Scott McGrath  > wrote:
>
> > HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically
> > integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were
> > often applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic
> as
> > packaging and or hybrid  circuit design
> >
> > Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources
> > much of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their
> stuff
> > so rapidly and undersell them.
> >
> > Content by Scott
> > Typos by Siri
> >
> > > On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test
> > equipment.
> > > Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the
> case
> > of
> > > handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to
> the
> > > bottom.
> > >
> > > It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
> > > keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved
> > to
> > > separate the names.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave
> > Ltd) <
> > > drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >>   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <
> > time-nuts@febo.com
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> > >> unreliability of HP test equipment.
> > >>> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
> > >>
> > >> I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal
> > generators,
> > >> 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
> > >> HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP
> > the
> > >> most reliable.
> > >>
> > >> Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair
> to a
> > >> modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
> > >> £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen,
> which
> > >> was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will
> > blow
> > >> up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
> > >>
> > >> He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but
> the
> > >> reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
> > >> that.
> > >>
> > >> I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable
> > and
> > >> some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable
> > than
> > >> other decent makes.
> > >>
> > >> Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
> > >> Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and
> > Impedance
> > >> analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit
> > the
> > >> forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally
> get
> > no
> > >> response.)
> > >>
> > >> There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better
> (e.g.
> > >> Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best
> > choice to
> > >> me.
> > >>
> > >> I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
> > >> Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's
> no
> > >> way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
> > >> reflected in their higher resale values.
> > >>
> > >> At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,
> > though
> > >> modern service manuals are less so.
> > >>
> > >> Just my opinion.
> > >>
> > >> Dave.
> > >> ___
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > > 

Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Tommy Phone]

The ex-CEO of whom you speak was never over the instrument business. The 
Agilent spinoff occurred just before that reign. Many people seem to have that 
mistaken notion. 


>From Tom Holmes, N8ZM

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Gregory Muir  wrote:
> 
> Having been in the product design world (both MIL and commercial/medical) for 
> most of my life, I developed a very deep respect for HP quality and 
> reliability over the years.  It wasn't uncommon for management to peek into 
> the lab and find me poking around inside a piece of HP equipment to see how 
> the "big boys" did their designs.  It was a wonderful learning lesson.  As a 
> matter of fact, Tek was just as much in there as well but HP always seemed to 
> trump Tek's quality with respect to the robustness of  both the electronic 
> and mechanical aspects.
> 
> There were many times when involved in a design review than I would lug a 
> piece of partially disemboweled HP test gear from the lab into the meeting 
> room and say "see how it can be done?" to convince the other engineers and 
> management that a product can truly be developed without considerable effort 
> that will not only be more reliable but also simply be put tougher with more 
> thought.  And it is a well known fact that electronics engineers do not 
> necessarily have the best ideas when it comes to putting circuitry in a box.  
> And in smaller companies, there is often a belief amongst managers that 
> packaging engineers are not an affordable luxury so that responsibility is 
> thrust upon the electronic gearheads to do their best.
> 
> As a sidebar (with additional respects to Mr. Vollum and company), Bill and 
> Dave managed to foster a very Spartan company with a life and products which 
> not only greatly assisted the engineering and service communities with their 
> professions but also became a model for many businesses to follow.  It is 
> unfortunate that a CEO had to come along who had little understanding of this 
> tradition and manage to pillage the company and leave it as it now stands.  
> But the HP tradition has persevered to a great extent and the new fledgling 
> is still continuing to produce products of outstanding quality.  So I look at 
> the present standing of that ex-CEO and am silently happy that they have lost 
> their political bid for office given a possible fate of the whole nation to 
> follow in the same path.
> 
> Greg
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[time-nuts] HP Reliability

[William H. Fite]

They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?

The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing.

Bill



On Sunday, February 14, 2016, Scott McGrath > wrote:

> HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically
> integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were
> often applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as
> packaging and or hybrid  circuit design
>
> Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources
> much of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff
> so rapidly and undersell them.
>
> Content by Scott
> Typos by Siri
>
> > On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
> >
> > HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test
> equipment.
> > Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case
> of
> > handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
> > bottom.
> >
> > It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
> > keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved
> to
> > separate the names.
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave
> Ltd) <
> > drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <
> time-nuts@febo.com
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> >> unreliability of HP test equipment.
> >>> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
> >>
> >> I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal
> generators,
> >> 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
> >> HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP
> the
> >> most reliable.
> >>
> >> Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
> >> modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
> >> £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
> >> was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will
> blow
> >> up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
> >>
> >> He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
> >> reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
> >> that.
> >>
> >> I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable
> and
> >> some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable
> than
> >> other decent makes.
> >>
> >> Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
> >> Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and
> Impedance
> >> analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit
> the
> >> forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get
> no
> >> response.)
> >>
> >> There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
> >> Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best
> choice to
> >> me.
> >>
> >> I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
> >> Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
> >> way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
> >> reflected in their higher resale values.
> >>
> >> At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,
> though
> >> modern service manuals are less so.
> >>
> >> Just my opinion.
> >>
> >> Dave.
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Scott McGrath]

HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically 
integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were often 
applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as packaging 
and or hybrid  circuit design

Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources much 
of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff so 
rapidly and undersell them.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
> 
> HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
> Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
> handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
> bottom.
> 
> It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
> keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
> separate the names.
> 
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
>> unreliability of HP test equipment.
>>> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
>> 
>> I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal generators,
>> 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
>> HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP the
>> most reliable.
>> 
>> Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
>> modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
>> £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
>> was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will blow
>> up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
>> 
>> He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
>> reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
>> that.
>> 
>> I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable and
>> some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable than
>> other decent makes.
>> 
>> Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
>> Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and Impedance
>> analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit the
>> forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get no
>> response.)
>> 
>> There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
>> Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice to
>> me.
>> 
>> I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
>> Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
>> way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
>> reflected in their higher resale values.
>> 
>> At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,  though
>> modern service manuals are less so.
>> 
>> Just my opinion.
>> 
>> Dave.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error plot

[Ben Hall]

On 2/14/2016 11:57 AM, Mark Sims wrote:

Attached is a Lady Heather plot of the "event".   Note that there
were a couple of brief places during the outage where one satellite
was tracked.


Interesting.  My Z3801A got really angry a bit ago but never lost 
satellites:




(plus attached if this list doesn't block attachments)

thanks,
ben




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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Gregory Muir]

Having been in the product design world (both MIL and commercial/medical) for 
most of my life, I developed a very deep respect for HP quality and reliability 
over the years.  It wasn't uncommon for management to peek into the lab and 
find me poking around inside a piece of HP equipment to see how the "big boys" 
did their designs.  It was a wonderful learning lesson.  As a matter of fact, 
Tek was just as much in there as well but HP always seemed to trump Tek's 
quality with respect to the robustness of  both the electronic and mechanical 
aspects.

There were many times when involved in a design review than I would lug a piece 
of partially disemboweled HP test gear from the lab into the meeting room and 
say "see how it can be done?" to convince the other engineers and management 
that a product can truly be developed without considerable effort that will not 
only be more reliable but also simply be put tougher with more thought.  And it 
is a well known fact that electronics engineers do not necessarily have the 
best ideas when it comes to putting circuitry in a box.  And in smaller 
companies, there is often a belief amongst managers that packaging engineers 
are not an affordable luxury so that responsibility is thrust upon the 
electronic gearheads to do their best.

As a sidebar (with additional respects to Mr. Vollum and company), Bill and 
Dave managed to foster a very Spartan company with a life and products which 
not only greatly assisted the engineering and service communities with their 
professions but also became a model for many businesses to follow.  It is 
unfortunate that a CEO had to come along who had little understanding of this 
tradition and manage to pillage the company and leave it as it now stands.  But 
the HP tradition has persevered to a great extent and the new fledgling is 
still continuing to produce products of outstanding quality.  So I look at the 
present standing of that ex-CEO and am silently happy that they have lost their 
political bid for office given a possible fate of the whole nation to follow in 
the same path.

Greg
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Hans Holzach]

i am located in switzerland.

i checked tonight's log of my lucent ks-24361. it had perfect satellite 
reception during the whole night.


but: i stopped logging a TI-measurement this morning because it was 
messed up. the reference is a Miller Simple GPSDO, the DUT a decently 
stable rubidium oscillator. the plot clearly shows that the gpsdo went 
into holdover twice (strong frequency drift), starting at about 1 UTC 
(no time stamps unfortunately). it locked the second time about 85 
minutes later and is fine since then.


hans
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Magnus Danielson]

OK. I was starting to suspect that.

Already made a call. They keep producing work for us.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/14/2016 01:02 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

This NANU just arrived:
From:  https://celestrak.com/GPS/NANU/2016/nanu.2016012.txt


NOTICE ADVISORY TO NAVSTAR USERS (NANU) 2016012 NANU TYPE: GENERAL
*** GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL GPS USERS ***
Users may be experiencing a potential time transfer anomaly.  If you are 
experiencing any issue please contact NAVCEN at 703-313-5900, 
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov
*** GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL GPS USERS ***

POC: CIVILIAN - NAVCEN AT 703-313-5900, HTTP://WWW.NAVCEN.USCG.GOV
MILITARY - GPS OPERATIONS CENTER at HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL/GPSOC, DSN 
560-2541,
COMM 719-567-2541, gpsoperationscen...@us.af.mil, HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL
MILITARY ALTERNATE - JOINT SPACE OPERATIONS CENTER, DSN276-3514,
COMM 805-606-3514, jspoccombat...@vandenberg.af.mil


See also: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?Do=constellationstatus

/tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Adrian Godwin]

HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
bottom.

It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
separate the names.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:

>On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts"  >
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> unreliability of HP test equipment.
> > There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
>
> I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal generators,
> 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
> HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP the
> most reliable.
>
> Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
> modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
> £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
> was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will blow
> up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
>
> He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
> reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
> that.
>
> I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable and
> some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable than
> other decent makes.
>
> Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
> Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and Impedance
> analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit the
> forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get no
> response.)
>
> There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
> Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice to
> me.
>
> I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
> Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
> way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
> reflected in their higher resale values.
>
> At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,  though
> modern service manuals are less so.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Dave.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Artek Manuals]

My bet is that the split between Medical and Test Equipment is to 
facilitate the eventual sale of one or the other division.


As for reliability I have mostly HP and Tektronix in my stable with an 
odd Racal and Boonton piece here and there. The Boontons never fail ( 
arguably much simpler) but the HP are an order of magnitude better than 
Tektronix. I suspect the medical stuff gets built with "mil-qualified" 
parts because  the customer base has a higher tolerance for the added cost


Also dont forget guys a lot of the toys we have all bought on Evil-Bay , 
etc ,,are well beyond it's design life cycle I think the youngest Item I 
have in my "collection" is at least 25 years old.


Dave
ArtekManuals.com



On 2/14/2016 6:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi,

Rather, it was because Agilent was known for it's fine medical stuff
that the instrument part didn't fit in and put into a separate company.
Similarly since HP was known for its computers, printers and scanners,
the medical and instrument parts didn't fit into the HP brand.

In the process, it looks like it is loosing it's edge, which is sad to see.

Cheers,
Magnus




--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Artek Manuals]

Interesting my Z3801A here in Florida reports no hold over errors for 
the last 72 hours


A novice to the GPS community why are (apparently)only the Trimble units 
affected?


Dave
NR1DX


On 2/14/2016 7:02 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

This NANU just arrived:
From:  https://celestrak.com/GPS/NANU/2016/nanu.2016012.txt


NOTICE ADVISORY TO NAVSTAR USERS (NANU) 2016012 NANU TYPE: GENERAL
*** GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL GPS USERS ***
Users may be experiencing a potential time transfer anomaly.  If you are 
experiencing any issue please contact NAVCEN at 703-313-5900, 
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov
*** GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL GPS USERS ***

POC: CIVILIAN - NAVCEN AT 703-313-5900, HTTP://WWW.NAVCEN.USCG.GOV
MILITARY - GPS OPERATIONS CENTER at HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL/GPSOC, DSN 
560-2541,
COMM 719-567-2541, gpsoperationscen...@us.af.mil, HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL
MILITARY ALTERNATE - JOINT SPACE OPERATIONS CENTER, DSN276-3514,
COMM 805-606-3514, jspoccombat...@vandenberg.af.mil


See also: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?Do=constellationstatus

/tvb
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--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

A few clarifications:

Before 1999, HP had a Medical Division that made
equipment you saw in hospitals and a Scientific
Instrument Division that made chemical analysis
equipment used in medical laboratories (and also
other laboratories).  IIRC, both began as
acquisitions.  The Agilent spin off in 1999
started a trend of additional divestiture.  The
Medical Division was sold to Philips, so former
HP hospital monitors were rebranded Philips.
After the Keysight spinoff, the remaining Agilent
company has two main parts:  chemical analysis,
descended from the old Scientific Instrument
Division, and life sciences, which grow organically
with the invention of gene arrays

What is now Keysight underwent massive reductions
in force after the dot com bust.  Around the
same time they started off shoring the Rohnert
Park manufacturing complex to Malaysia.  The
combination of the two eliminated something like
80% of the jobs in Sonoma county.  Some sites
like Liberty Lake (Spokane) closed completely.

This was when we started to see the quality
plummet.  They lost the recipe when they off
shored.  Instruments would arrive DOA, or would
fail after a few months.  Some had annoying
problems that would come and go, and they couldn't
seem to fix them.  When Windows XP expired, there
was a big crisis to upgrade to Windows 7 that
Malaysia fumbled the ball on.  (Many years ago,
the powers that be decided to use Windows internally
in place of Unix).

I wish Keysight well, but at the time I left in 2014,
and from what I've heard since, it didn't look encouraging.

Rick

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[time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error plot

[Mark Sims]

Attached is a Lady Heather plot of the "event".   Note that there were a couple 
of brief places during the outage where one satellite was tracked.

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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[John Green]

We have had mixed results with HP/Agilent/Keysight over the years. Our
experience with their repair and customer service has been less favorable.
One area where my experience has been unfavorable has been with the Genesys
software. We bought it back when it was still owned by Randy Rhea, and I
thought it was well worth what it cost. Since, we have upgraded to a newer
Agilent version and it rarely gets used. Their customer support hasn't been
helpful at all. We lost the new USB dongle and they want $1500 to replace
it. I think they, like a lot of other test equipment manufacturers, have
faced pressure from other, lower cost competitors and to maintain sales and
profit margins, they have cut corners. We have several 8712 network
analyzers that are nearing end of life. Management wants to find a cheaper
alternative. We bought a Chinese network analyzer for around $13K. It was
so weird and difficult to use, it just sat on the bench. Eventually, the
owner took it home.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

> HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
> Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
> handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
> bottom.
>
> It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
> keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
> separate the names.
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <
> time-nuts@febo.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> > unreliability of HP test equipment.
> > > There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
> >
> > I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal
> generators,
> > 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
> > HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP
> the
> > most reliable.
> >
> > Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
> > modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
> > £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
> > was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will
> blow
> > up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
> >
> > He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
> > reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
> > that.
> >
> > I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable
> and
> > some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable
> than
> > other decent makes.
> >
> > Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
> > Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and
> Impedance
> > analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit
> the
> > forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get
> no
> > response.)
> >
> > There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
> > Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice
> to
> > me.
> >
> > I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
> > Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
> > way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
> > reflected in their higher resale values.
> >
> > At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,
> though
> > modern service manuals are less so.
> >
> > Just my opinion.
> >
> > Dave.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Scott Newell]

At 12:59 AM 2/14/2016, Hal Murray wrote:


newell+timen...@n5tnl.com said:
> My tbolt shows a massive loss of sats starting around 00:15 through 01:56.

Where are you located?


Arkansas.



I have crappy antennas so holdover is common.  It's been good weather


Outdoor antenna, but so-so placement. I don't think I've seen 
holdover in a year.


No LH log (oops!), but I did save a screenshot. (Attached).


--
newell  N5TNL
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[paul swed]

I will say its odd that lately there have been 2 screw ups in less then a
month. Really odd. I was thinking that perhaps the issue had been a pocket
jammer. Those will have an affect on a area. In the states truck drivers
buy and use them.
But it looks like the birds were messed up.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Hans Holzach 
wrote:

> i am located in switzerland.
>
> i checked tonight's log of my lucent ks-24361. it had perfect satellite
> reception during the whole night.
>
> but: i stopped logging a TI-measurement this morning because it was messed
> up. the reference is a Miller Simple GPSDO, the DUT a decently stable
> rubidium oscillator. the plot clearly shows that the gpsdo went into
> holdover twice (strong frequency drift), starting at about 1 UTC (no time
> stamps unfortunately). it locked the second time about 85 minutes later and
> is fine since then.
>
> hans
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Dan Rae]

I saved my LH screen just as the period of seeing no satellites ended 
with one coming into view at the bottom, and again maybe an hour and a 
half later.  In between LH reported "No Almanac" at some point.


 Whatever was being done must have been fairly major!

Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Shane Morris]

Independent reports on GPS errors on the app_rpt mailing list, around the
time frame you're mentioning in California. Those guys use GPS to train
voting radio transmitters.

They asked me to post on their behalf, as I am subscribed to both lists.
On 14 Feb 2016 3:02 pm, "Mark Sims"  wrote:

> Yes,  all satellites dropped out from 00:16:51 to 01:54:02 UTC in Dallas,
> Texas.   Was tracking 5 sats then, poof, none.Global warming?  Gravity
> waves?  More bogus GPS control segment uploads?  Somebody gots some 'splain
> to do...
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Hal Murray]

newell+timen...@n5tnl.com said:
> My tbolt shows a massive loss of sats starting around 00:15 through 01:56. 

Where are you located?

I'm in Silicon Valley.

Both of my TBolts went into holdover about 0:15 UTC and stayed there until 
2:15.  One recovered enough to reset the counter about half way through.

I have crappy antennas so holdover is common.  It's been good weather 
recently so long outages are a bit strange.  (I think wet weather reduces the 
signal getting through my roof but I don't have good data to back that up.)

Both of my TBolts had huge PPS Offset for several minutes about 2:00 UTC.  
One was 822.50, the other was 696.50 for 9 samples at 64 second 
spacing.

Both units reported the a0 and a1 parameters changing, one at 2:01, the other 
at 3:41
  a0=0, a1=1.77636e-15
The 0 is strange, but I've seen it before.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Björn Gabrielsson]

Hi,

Spent the flight back from PTTI next to a HP, then Agilent medical guy.
Aparently the medical stuff did not go into Keysight, they remain Agilent.

--

Björn

> Hi,
> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> unreliability of HP test equipment.
> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
> I was involved with repairing HP medical equipment for 25 years and it was
> awesome stuff. This was the same info I got from other BMET's at many
> different hospitals.
> The TCO was low as the equipment ran and ran, a lot of it 24/7. I'm
> talking about a 10 year period.
> Usually our equipment was only replaced by newer technology systems.
> Too bad it didn't apply to test equipment as well.
> Regards,
> Perrier
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>


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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" 
wrote:
>
> Hi,
> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
unreliability of HP test equipment.
> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.

I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal generators,
15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP the
most reliable.

Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
£1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will blow
up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.

He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
that.

I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable and
some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable than
other decent makes.

Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and Impedance
analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit the
forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get no
response.)

There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice to
me.

I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
reflected in their higher resale values.

At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,  though
modern service manuals are less so.

Just my opinion.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] LIGO detects gravitational waves

[Magnus Danielson]

Peter,

The concepts of "event horizon" and "singularities" is somewhat disputed 
now.


The "event horizon" is just that radius where the gravitational pull is 
strong enough for light to bend down. It's not the "surface" of the 
black hole itself. What is interesting here is where the "surface" of 
the two black holes meet, as with any binary pair falling into each 
other. When the surfaces meet, then the single object core starts to 
form and the mass-distribution starts to even out. Now, what would be 
really fascinating to study would be just how the dynamic of the black 
hole mass acts, as it is under tremendous gravity pull, it will be very 
compact and the material behavior there will be "interesting".


The gravity "wave" is the result of the masses shifting in distance from 
you, and that is the result of two masses rotating around each other 
being pulled by their gravity. The energy being the potential energy 
between them, mass M1 have a potential energy in relationship to the 
mass M2, due to the height. Since their momentum was not big enough to 
pull them apart on a distance, they have slowly been falling towards 
each other, those loosing potential energy which is thus emitted.


Notice that neutron stars binary pairs would also be measurable, there 
is no big magic to the black holes here except for their enormous mass.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/14/2016 05:14 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:

I am curious about the final stages.   When they are far apart they are
outside of
each others event horizon (the boundary from which nothing can
escape).   As
they wind down the event horizons will merge but not be spherical. They are
hot spherical since the two singularities at their center have not
merged.   How
long did it take from the time that the event horizons touched to when the
singularities merged?

Where did the energy of the gravity wave come from?   Three solar masses
of energy from what they say.   My understanding is that the 2 black holes
started orbiting at some distance and were moving at slow speed. As they
wound
down they picked up speed, ultimately gaining a significant portion of
light speed.
This must have increased their apparent mass.   Is this increase in mass
the
same mass that they ultimately lost in radiating the gravity waves?

Once the event horizons merged the singularities continued to orbit each
other and radiate gravity waves.   But since the amplitude of the gravity
waves goes down as the spacing decreases will the singularities ever
actually merge?   They are infinitely small, so can they ever occupy the
same position and merge?

Pete.

On 2/13/2016 7:14 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

At least my simple take on it:

As they get closer, the rotation speeds up. It is no different than
the ice skater
pulling in their arms.

Once they get close enough, there are no longer two black holes. They
have become a
single black hole. They now radiate a “dc signal” that the detector
can’t deal with.

Bob


On Feb 13, 2016, at 6:34 PM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:

IMHO, the decay seems backwards because we are watching the growth of
the event as the black holes approach each other, reaching a maximum at
collision.

Don't know why the signal drops off after the collision. May be because
gravity stops changing, or maybe because the resulting object left the
universe - well, not if mass and energy are conserved. Or did the wave
contain all of the radiated energy?

Disclaimer: My field of study was not physics.

Bill Hawkins

-Original Message-
From: Bob Stewart
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 2:35 PM

Hi Tom,

Thanks for posting this.  I'm looking at the timelab plot, and the only
thing I can relate that to is a musical note played backward.  IOW, the
decay seems backwards to me.

Bob - AE6RV


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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[Tom Van Baak]

This NANU just arrived:
From:  https://celestrak.com/GPS/NANU/2016/nanu.2016012.txt


NOTICE ADVISORY TO NAVSTAR USERS (NANU) 2016012 NANU TYPE: GENERAL
*** GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL GPS USERS ***
Users may be experiencing a potential time transfer anomaly.  If you are 
experiencing any issue please contact NAVCEN at 703-313-5900, 
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov
*** GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL GPS USERS ***

   POC: CIVILIAN - NAVCEN AT 703-313-5900, HTTP://WWW.NAVCEN.USCG.GOV
   MILITARY - GPS OPERATIONS CENTER at HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL/GPSOC, DSN 
560-2541,
   COMM 719-567-2541, gpsoperationscen...@us.af.mil, HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL 
   MILITARY ALTERNATE - JOINT SPACE OPERATIONS CENTER, DSN276-3514, 
   COMM 805-606-3514, jspoccombat...@vandenberg.af.mil


See also: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?Do=constellationstatus

/tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

Rather, it was because Agilent was known for it's fine medical stuff 
that the instrument part didn't fit in and put into a separate company. 
Similarly since HP was known for its computers, printers and scanners, 
the medical and instrument parts didn't fit into the HP brand.


In the process, it looks like it is loosing it's edge, which is sad to see.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/14/2016 11:08 AM, "Björn Gabrielsson" wrote:

Hi,

Spent the flight back from PTTI next to a HP, then Agilent medical guy.
Aparently the medical stuff did not go into Keysight, they remain Agilent.

--

 Björn


Hi,
It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
unreliability of HP test equipment.
There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
I was involved with repairing HP medical equipment for 25 years and it was
awesome stuff. This was the same info I got from other BMET's at many
different hospitals.
The TCO was low as the equipment ran and ran, a lot of it 24/7. I'm
talking about a 10 year period.
Usually our equipment was only replaced by newer technology systems.
Too bad it didn't apply to test equipment as well.
Regards,
Perrier
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[time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Perry Sandeen via time-nuts]

Hi,
It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the 
unreliability of HP test equipment.
There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
I was involved with repairing HP medical equipment for 25 years and it was 
awesome stuff. This was the same info I got from other BMET's at many different 
hospitals.
The TCO was low as the equipment ran and ran, a lot of it 24/7. I'm talking 
about a 10 year period.
Usually our equipment was only replaced by newer technology systems.
Too bad it didn't apply to test equipment as well.
Regards,
Perrier
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[time-nuts] Cheap GPS OCXO's

[Perry Sandeen via time-nuts]

Hi,
One comment posted a while back warned that if the Morion OCXO's reached the 
limit of their EFC range the could not manually re-tuned as others are.

That said, the newer ones posted seem to be using Trimble OCXO's.
Regards,
Perrier
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Re: [time-nuts] LIGO detects gravitational waves

[Peter Reilley]

I am curious about the final stages.   When they are far apart they are 
outside of

each others event horizon (the boundary from which nothing can escape).   As
they wind down the event horizons will merge but not be spherical. They are
hot spherical since the two singularities at their center have not 
merged.   How

long did it take from the time that the event horizons touched to when the
singularities merged?

Where did the energy of the gravity wave come from?   Three solar masses
of energy from what they say.   My understanding is that the 2 black holes
started orbiting at some distance and were moving at slow speed. As they 
wound
down they picked up speed, ultimately gaining a significant portion of 
light speed.

This must have increased their apparent mass.   Is this increase in mass the
same mass that they ultimately lost in radiating the gravity waves?

Once the event horizons merged the singularities continued to orbit each
other and radiate gravity waves.   But since the amplitude of the gravity
waves goes down as the spacing decreases will the singularities ever
actually merge?   They are infinitely small, so can they ever occupy the
same position and merge?

Pete.

On 2/13/2016 7:14 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

At least my simple take on it:

As they get closer, the rotation speeds up. It is no different than the ice 
skater
pulling in their arms.

Once they get close enough, there are no longer two black holes. They have 
become a
single black hole. They now radiate a “dc signal” that the detector can’t deal 
with.

Bob


On Feb 13, 2016, at 6:34 PM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:

IMHO, the decay seems backwards because we are watching the growth of
the event as the black holes approach each other, reaching a maximum at
collision.

Don't know why the signal drops off after the collision. May be because
gravity stops changing, or maybe because the resulting object left the
universe - well, not if mass and energy are conserved. Or did the wave
contain all of the radiated energy?

Disclaimer: My field of study was not physics.

Bill Hawkins

-Original Message-
From: Bob Stewart
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 2:35 PM

Hi Tom,

Thanks for posting this.  I'm looking at the timelab plot, and the only
thing I can relate that to is a musical note played backward.  IOW, the
decay seems backwards to me.

Bob - AE6RV


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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt error

[ws at Yahoo via time-nuts]

 
Same here for me in central California near the coast(SLO county).
My Tbolt lost all satellites all at the same time, for 100 min @ ~5:30 PM
PST.
Then just as suddenly all came back on line, with no input from me.
A truly unique experience for this Tbolt which runs pretty much
continuously.
LH screen shot attached.  
 
ws
 
*
 
Hello Group, 
 
A friend about 2Km up the road from me and I both run the Trimble
Thunderbolt GPSDO. For a few years now they have both worked flawlessly.
Around 1/2 an hour ago ( I wasn't in front of mine when it happened ) at
roughly 00:45 UTC the Mates went into "holdover" mode and reported "no
Sats". I have just checked mine and it is reporting the same.. 
 
I am wondering if anyone else has had this happen to them today ? 
 
Cheers, 
 
Rob. 
 
 

 

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