Re: [time-nuts] WWV receivers?

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

That single-chip version is going to have a *LOT* less (and less variable) 
latency than an SDR.

> On Oct 27, 2016, at 12:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message <5a002554-8d90-4c75-95da-21db45d61...@kfu.com>, Nick Sayer via 
> time-
> nuts writes:
> 
>> If you’re in North America, a CHU receiver is a lot easier to make
>> than WWV/WWVH. The CHU timecode is just BEL 103 AFSK at 300 baud -
>> it was a one-chip solution 20 years ago when I made one in college.
> 
> We have CPUs and sounds-cards these days...
> 
> Also: The KiwiSDR is nearly perfect hardware, no matter which VLF/HF
> station you want:  You can track GPS and four (possibly 8) VLF/HF
> stations at the same time.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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[time-nuts] What would be the proper equipment and procedure?

[Mark Sims]

Yep, should have gone to volt-nuts.   Recent changes Microsoft has been doing 
to Outlook, etc have been causing all sorts of fun gltches.  One being not 
actually taking copy-pastes of addresses and/or subject lines.  Another being 
sorting emails into dark and crusty corners of ancient folders...   We were 
talking about the hazards of making cadmium-tin low thermal EMF solder...
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Re: [time-nuts] What would be the proper equipment and procedure?

[Bill Hawkins]

Ah, you might not have meant that for this list. You are a man of many
talents.

Dimethyl mercury has given elemental mercury a bad name it doesn't
deserve. As a youth, I used it to turn pennies into silvery dimes.
Father said he'd ingested a teaspoon to see how fast it would go through
him. In his day, beryllium pliers were used around explosives because
they were non-sparking. We both lived many years afterwards. People who
don't understand the difference between elements and compounds insist
that cleaning up after a broken mercury thermometer be done wearing moon
suits. So it goes - as time goes by.

Bill Hawkins


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Sims
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 10:26 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] What would be the proper equipment and procedure?

I don't know if it the proper way but I used a very nice fume hood.
Measured the metals (high purity),  melted them in a quartz crucible,
stirred with a quartz rod,  and cast it in a ceramic block with a spiral
pattern machined into it with a ball mill. You don't want to contaminate
the mixture with other metals, etc.

That "Things I Won't Work With" article was about dimethyl cadmium, not
metallic cadmium.  Reall Nasty Stuff.  Metallic cadmium and cadmium
plating has been used for ages without killing too many people.  It's
not something to take lightly, but I've had the pleasure of working
around far worse things.

For even more extreme nastiness check out dimethyl mercury... one drop,
goes through rubber gloves like they aren't there,  sure-fire rather
horrible death.   Derek Lowe's "Things I Won't Work With" series is some
of the best reading out there...  Unfortunately,  I don't think that he
is still doing them.  His old web site has disappeared.
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[time-nuts] What would be the proper equipment and procedure?

[Mark Sims]

I don't know if it the proper way but I used a very nice fume hood.   Measured 
the metals (high purity),  melted them in a quartz crucible,  stirred with a 
quartz rod,  and cast it in a ceramic block with a spiral pattern machined into 
it with a ball mill. You don't want to contaminate the mixture with other 
metals, etc.

That "Things I Won't Work With" article was about dimethyl cadmium, not 
metallic cadmium.  Reall Nasty Stuff.  Metallic cadmium and cadmium plating has 
been used for ages without killing too many people.  It's not something to take 
lightly, but I've had the pleasure of working around far worse things.

For even more extreme nastiness check out dimethyl mercury... one drop, goes 
through rubber gloves like they aren't there,  sure-fire rather horrible death. 
  Derek Lowe's "Things I Won't Work With" series is some of the best reading 
out there...  Unfortunately,  I don't think that he is still doing them.  His 
old web site has disappeared.
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Re: [time-nuts] Unexpected problem found

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On a related note, I remember when Pendulum was testing a rubidium and 
it had more jitter than motivated by the integrated phase-noise slopes, 
so they where curious about it. As I had just brought in my SIA3000 for 
them to have fun with, I hooked it up and already in the oscilloscope 
view I found small bumps spread out over the sine. Turned out to be the 
100 MHz used for the rubidium lamp that polluted the output. You rarely 
do a plot out to 90 MHz offset of the 10 MHz carrier on phase-noise 
plots, you rather call it harmonics which wasn't listed.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 10/29/2016 03:58 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

HI

Probably what is going on is that the OCXO’s have a parasitic oscillaton in the 
UHF
region. It has injection locked to the 10 MHz. You get a signal that is much 
higher
level than any harmonic relation would predict.

I’d try fiddling the bypassing and load ….

Bob


On Oct 28, 2016, at 8:43 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:

This really is Time Nuts related. Keep reading.

I recently bought some surplus Motorola UHF mobiles. They came with
the previous frequencies blanked and only channel one programmed with
460.000 MHz.

I put all of them on the bench to do a quick test to see if they
transmitted and received. Upon power on, every one was receiving a
strong carrier on the programmed frequency of 460 MHz. Firing up the
service monitor with a small whip antenna, I found a -70 dBm carrier,
right on 460 MHz.

Taking a handheld scanner around the house and outside, it seemed that
the problem was in my house, but I couldn't localize it with the
scanner. I started turning off circuit breakers until the carrier went
away. Then I went around, unplugging things individually. You won't
believe what the culprit was.

I have had some 10 MHz, Micro Crystal OCXO's (DIP 14) aging for quite
a while, intending to use them in a few projects eventually. Yep, it
was the OCXO's. I am surprised that the OXCO's would be putting out a
carrier at 460 MHz, and such a strong one.

This has been going on for quite a while. If I hadn't had these
Motorola radios that just happened to be programmed for 460 MHz, who
knows if or when I would have noticed this.

Joe Gray
W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] Unexpected problem found

[Bob Camp]

HI

Probably what is going on is that the OCXO’s have a parasitic oscillaton in the 
UHF
region. It has injection locked to the 10 MHz. You get a signal that is much 
higher 
level than any harmonic relation would predict. 

I’d try fiddling the bypassing and load ….

Bob

> On Oct 28, 2016, at 8:43 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
> 
> This really is Time Nuts related. Keep reading.
> 
> I recently bought some surplus Motorola UHF mobiles. They came with
> the previous frequencies blanked and only channel one programmed with
> 460.000 MHz.
> 
> I put all of them on the bench to do a quick test to see if they
> transmitted and received. Upon power on, every one was receiving a
> strong carrier on the programmed frequency of 460 MHz. Firing up the
> service monitor with a small whip antenna, I found a -70 dBm carrier,
> right on 460 MHz.
> 
> Taking a handheld scanner around the house and outside, it seemed that
> the problem was in my house, but I couldn't localize it with the
> scanner. I started turning off circuit breakers until the carrier went
> away. Then I went around, unplugging things individually. You won't
> believe what the culprit was.
> 
> I have had some 10 MHz, Micro Crystal OCXO's (DIP 14) aging for quite
> a while, intending to use them in a few projects eventually. Yep, it
> was the OCXO's. I am surprised that the OXCO's would be putting out a
> carrier at 460 MHz, and such a strong one.
> 
> This has been going on for quite a while. If I hadn't had these
> Motorola radios that just happened to be programmed for 460 MHz, who
> knows if or when I would have noticed this.
> 
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
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[time-nuts] Unexpected problem found

[Joseph Gray]

This really is Time Nuts related. Keep reading.

I recently bought some surplus Motorola UHF mobiles. They came with
the previous frequencies blanked and only channel one programmed with
460.000 MHz.

I put all of them on the bench to do a quick test to see if they
transmitted and received. Upon power on, every one was receiving a
strong carrier on the programmed frequency of 460 MHz. Firing up the
service monitor with a small whip antenna, I found a -70 dBm carrier,
right on 460 MHz.

Taking a handheld scanner around the house and outside, it seemed that
the problem was in my house, but I couldn't localize it with the
scanner. I started turning off circuit breakers until the carrier went
away. Then I went around, unplugging things individually. You won't
believe what the culprit was.

I have had some 10 MHz, Micro Crystal OCXO's (DIP 14) aging for quite
a while, intending to use them in a few projects eventually. Yep, it
was the OCXO's. I am surprised that the OXCO's would be putting out a
carrier at 460 MHz, and such a strong one.

This has been going on for quite a while. If I hadn't had these
Motorola radios that just happened to be programmed for 460 MHz, who
knows if or when I would have noticed this.

Joe Gray
W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[J. L. Trantham]

Oh never mind.

MAJOR BF!!!

How I 'morphed' S30 into S05 I can't explain.

I suspect it is a 74S30 but I can't prove it.

Sorry.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 5:57 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

Sorry.

74S05D.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 5:50 PM
To: 'Tom Miller'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

I have emailed Peter separately earlier today.

The top side marking of the chip appears to indicate it is a TI 74LS05D.

The datasheet is here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls05.pdf

If it is indeed a 'HEX Inverter', perhaps another 'channel' can be wired in 
place to see if it would work without having to find another chip.

Also, I, too, was wondering if it was 5 V or if there was a 5 V regulator on 
the board somewhere.

Hope this helps.

Joe



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 4:18 PM
To: pe...@reilley.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

Can you see the voltage on the yellow dipped tantalum under the board? I think 
that is what it is.


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


> That seems the most reasonable thing to do.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:
>> It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts. 
>> Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley" 
>> 
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
>> 
>> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
>>
>>
>>> The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
>>> there. I should
>>> have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 
>>> 12 volts.
>>> All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.
>>>
>>> Pete.
>>>
>>> On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
 I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix 
 to
 look at.
 So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
 OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
 crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
 engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
 74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
 Good luck.
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>
>> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be 
>> a
>> blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.
>>
>> There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
> you
> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>
>
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

Not S05 but S30.   A 74S30 is an 8 input NAND and the foot pint on the 
board, looking

at the inputs and outputs, seems to confirm it.

There is no 5 volt regulator.   The power pin is connected directly to 
the power

pin of a 74S30.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 6:50 PM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

I have emailed Peter separately earlier today.

The top side marking of the chip appears to indicate it is a TI 74LS05D.

The datasheet is here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls05.pdf

If it is indeed a 'HEX Inverter', perhaps another 'channel' can be wired in 
place to see if it would work without having to find another chip.

Also, I, too, was wondering if it was 5 V or if there was a 5 V regulator on 
the board somewhere.

Hope this helps.

Joe



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 4:18 PM
To: pe...@reilley.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

Can you see the voltage on the yellow dipped tantalum under the board? I think 
that is what it is.


- Original Message -
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO



That seems the most reasonable thing to do.

Pete


On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:

It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts.
Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?


- Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley"

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO



The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it
there. I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said
12 volts.
All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:

I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix
to
look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:


On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:


The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be
a
blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,

fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and
you
put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[J. L. Trantham]

Sorry.

74S05D.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 5:50 PM
To: 'Tom Miller'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

I have emailed Peter separately earlier today.

The top side marking of the chip appears to indicate it is a TI 74LS05D.

The datasheet is here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls05.pdf

If it is indeed a 'HEX Inverter', perhaps another 'channel' can be wired in 
place to see if it would work without having to find another chip.

Also, I, too, was wondering if it was 5 V or if there was a 5 V regulator on 
the board somewhere.

Hope this helps.

Joe



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 4:18 PM
To: pe...@reilley.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

Can you see the voltage on the yellow dipped tantalum under the board? I think 
that is what it is.


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


> That seems the most reasonable thing to do.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:
>> It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts. 
>> Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley" 
>> 
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
>> 
>> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
>>
>>
>>> The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
>>> there. I should
>>> have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 
>>> 12 volts.
>>> All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.
>>>
>>> Pete.
>>>
>>> On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
 I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix 
 to
 look at.
 So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
 OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
 crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
 engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
 74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
 Good luck.
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>
>> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be 
>> a
>> blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.
>>
>> There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
> you
> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
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 ___
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>>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[J. L. Trantham]

I have emailed Peter separately earlier today.

The top side marking of the chip appears to indicate it is a TI 74LS05D.

The datasheet is here:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls05.pdf

If it is indeed a 'HEX Inverter', perhaps another 'channel' can be wired in 
place to see if it would work without having to find another chip.

Also, I, too, was wondering if it was 5 V or if there was a 5 V regulator on 
the board somewhere.

Hope this helps.

Joe



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 4:18 PM
To: pe...@reilley.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

Can you see the voltage on the yellow dipped tantalum under the board? I think 
that is what it is.


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


> That seems the most reasonable thing to do.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:
>> It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts. 
>> Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley" 
>> 
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
>> 
>> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
>>
>>
>>> The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
>>> there. I should
>>> have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 
>>> 12 volts.
>>> All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.
>>>
>>> Pete.
>>>
>>> On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
 I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix 
 to
 look at.
 So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
 OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
 crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
 engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
 74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
 Good luck.
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>
>> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be 
>> a
>> blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.
>>
>> There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
> you
> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Tom Miller]

Can you see the voltage on the yellow dipped tantalum under the board? I 
think that is what it is.



- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO



That seems the most reasonable thing to do.

Pete


On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:
It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts. 
Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?



- Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley" 

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
there. I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 
12 volts.

All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix 
to

look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:


On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:

The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be 
a

blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
you

put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[jimlux]

On 10/28/16 1:09 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

Hi Bob,
Can't the OCXOs be characterized pretty closely by someone with the right tools 
and staff?  I don't have a big sample to speak from, but the Trimbles I use 
only have a couple of ceramic coated pieces, and those can be exposed down to 
the die by hand and then characterized, can't they?  Granted, that's beyond my 
capabilities, but given the right tools and employees...




The real thing is "which requirement do I really, really care about" 
beyond the straightforward frequency stability/phase noise specs.


You might have a specific "I care about 1 Hz to 100 Hz, but don't much 
are about >100 Hz or <1Hz" and you're willing to let the mfr do pretty 
much anything else for the rest.


I recently had a requirement where I don't much care about absolute 
frequency accuracy, but I do care about phase noise and short term (<3 
seconds) stability.  We got some quotes for OCXOs with the oven 
disabled, figuring that we don't need to burn the power for the oven, 
since that's more about frequency accuracy, and our environment (in 
space) doesn't vary more than a couple degrees over hours.  That's 
something you'll never see in a catalog.


We buy oscillators at JPL for things like landing radars - the operating 
life is minutes, but it had better work for those minutes - we care not 
what the aging or frequency accuracy is in this situation.


I know people that have bought parts for telemetry transmitters on 
devices with life measured in seconds - there, the critical requirement 
was "must start from -80C and run for 10 seconds"


A coworker was telling me about requirements for oscillators in fire 
control radars attached to gatling guns - Now there's a vibe sensitivity 
requirement.


So, as Bob pointed out, most oscillators go into applications that have 
idiosyncratic requirements and a cost or delivery schedule requirement 
pushing against the overall performance requirement.  Not everyone wants 
a 1kg ultra stable oscillator from APL with a 3 year delivery time.





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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Well, the first issue would be the one that started this thread…. what’s the 
supply and pinout.
Yes, you can tear a couple open and work that out. Next step would be to verify 
that the other
couple hundred in the batch all are the same pinout and supply.

Assuming that you have all the same parts, next up would be making the test 
fixtures for the
units. It does not need to be super complex, but you need a way to solidly 
connect to the part. 
If the leads have been cut off, this is a bit more complex than if you have 
full length leads. 

Most processes age the units first. That would involve putting all hundred 
pieces on power and
looking at each of them with a counter every couple of minutes for a month or 
two. Based on that
data you could get a pretty good idea of what the aging will run. You also will 
weed out some 
percentage of the units that didn’t survive whatever process got them to you.

After stabilization, They would go into temperature test. Likely something like 
a dozen or two
per run. Since you don’t know the top end, I’d do a search for that first. I’d 
then do a search for
the low end. Based on data from a few runs (several dozen parts) you should 
have some idea
of the upper and lower temp limits. 

A formal temp run over that range would be next. I’d probably do 5 degree 
steps. That way if
you are off on the endpoint guess you might be able to see the correct end 
points. You would
test the whole batch of units and then look at the data. My guess is that you 
would re-guess the
end points and re-test the batch at that point. 

Assuming you know the correct load and EFC from the original tear down, they 
would move on
to some sort of bench check. If not, you would need to work that out. 

On the bench check, I’d run each one over the (assumed) EFC range at something 
like 0.1V steps.
Here if your range is off, the data probably is still ok. That should give you 
a proper EFC setting
for each one. Since they have been aged and TC’d at this point, the EFC center 
point should 
be pretty good. 

After that, things like phase noise and ADEV would be on the list. Same thing, 
run them all 
and see what they do. Make some decisions and toss out the outliers. 

So, yes it can be done. Because of the tear down process early on and the data 
redundancy 
needed, you have to get a pretty good sized group of units. The risk is that 
you get a group
of parts with a common (to that batch) defect. They *were* headed to the 
garbage dump and
went to eBay instead ….

Lots of Fun

Bob

> On Oct 28, 2016, at 4:09 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> Can't the OCXOs be characterized pretty closely by someone with the right 
> tools and staff?  I don't have a big sample to speak from, but the Trimbles I 
> use only have a couple of ceramic coated pieces, and those can be exposed 
> down to the die by hand and then characterized, can't they?  Granted, that's 
> beyond my capabilities, but given the right tools and employees...
> 
> Bob
> 
>  From: Bob Camp 
> To: pe...@reilley.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
>  
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 2:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
> 
> Hi
> 
> Roughly 99.9% of all OCXO’s made go to large OEM customers. The percentage may
> actually be a bit higher than that. There are relatively few markets that 
> “catalog” OCXO’s 
> sell into.
> 
> Inevitably the first thing that an OEM wants is some form of customization. A 
> specific 
> supply voltage, a certain output format, a wider (or narrower) EFC range … 
> there
> are lots of possibilities. For every OCXO that goes into production for these 
> guys, 
> five or ten other designs are done (all equally custom) that never see the 
> light of day
> past the samples.
> 
> The spec’s that these parts are built to are negotiated between the supplier 
> and the OEM.
> In some cases they are the property of the OEM and the spec is their control 
> drawing on
> the part. In other cases the drawing is done by the supplier for that OEM and 
> is property
> of the supplier. 
> 
> The OEM often has competitors. They would *love* to get access to the OEM’s 
> control
> drawings to see how the systems are designed. The supplier has competitors. 
> They
> would love to get access to the suppliers drawings so they can make cheap 
> knock off
> parts to those drawings. In both cases, the drawings (in general) have very 
> real value. 
> 
> The net result of this is that both suppliers and OEM’s put fairly fancy 
> rules in place about
> passing out drawings. More or less anything up to and including being boiled 
> in oil is
> (if legal in the jurisdiction) fair recourse under most of these rules. 
> Needless to say
> people learn pretty quick that you get fired for this sort of thing. 
> 
> The net result is that the drawings for most OCXO’s simply do not exist in 
> the public
> domain. They do (or did) exist in 

Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[David]

I do not think the designer was considering noise at all because tying
the inputs together would not do anything useful.  Emitter resistance
is inversely proportional to emitter current (26/mA) but putting them
in parallel lowers the current through each emitter so the total
emitter resistance stays the same.

Supply current is separate for each TTL gate so by using a single
8-input part, total power it is about half that of a dual 4-input part
and a quarter of a quad 2-input part depending on the exact operating
conditions.  Unused *outputs* should be high for lowest power.

74S30 Single 8-Input 5mA 10mA
74S20 Dual 4-Input 8mA 18mA
74S00 Quad 2-Input 16mA 36mA

One clever design I ran across used the 7420 dual 4-input NAND pinout
but wired the inputs which are pin compatible so the 7400 quad 2-input
pinout would also work.  This allows using a 74x00, 74x20, or 74S120
dual 4-input NAND buffer but it draws even more power. 

74S120 Dual 4-Input 18mA 44mA

On Fri, 28 Oct 2016 13:31:38 -0400, you wrote:

>I wounder if originally the designer was hoping to use all 8 wire or'd
>inputs to lower the input referred noise during midscale transition. Then
>backed out later for some reason.
>
>On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Scott Stobbe 
>wrote:
>
>> Could also be a quirk about the 74S30 that gives it better phase noise
>> over a basic buffer.
>>
>>
>> On Friday, 28 October 2016, jimlux  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>>>
 The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
 blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

 There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
>>> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and you
>>> put 12V on it, it will cook.
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Bob Stewart]

>From experience, I can tell you that you can't always depend on the seller 
>when it comes to how to feed your new OCXO.  For instance, the seller of the 
>Trimble 65256 insisted that it took 12V.  So, that's what I used, and all the 
>magic smoke came tumbling out.

Bob
 
  From: Peter Reilley 
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement  
 Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 2:10 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
   
The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
there.  I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 
12 volts.
All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

   
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Tom Miller]

It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts. Can 
you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?



- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it there. 
I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 12 
volts.

All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:

I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix to
look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:


On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:


The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
you

put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Bob Stewart]

Hi Bob,
Can't the OCXOs be characterized pretty closely by someone with the right tools 
and staff?  I don't have a big sample to speak from, but the Trimbles I use 
only have a couple of ceramic coated pieces, and those can be exposed down to 
the die by hand and then characterized, can't they?  Granted, that's beyond my 
capabilities, but given the right tools and employees...

Bob

  From: Bob Camp 
 To: pe...@reilley.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
 
 Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 2:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
   
Hi

Roughly 99.9% of all OCXO’s made go to large OEM customers. The percentage may
actually be a bit higher than that. There are relatively few markets that 
“catalog” OCXO’s 
sell into.

Inevitably the first thing that an OEM wants is some form of customization. A 
specific 
supply voltage, a certain output format, a wider (or narrower) EFC range … there
are lots of possibilities. For every OCXO that goes into production for these 
guys, 
five or ten other designs are done (all equally custom) that never see the 
light of day
past the samples.

The spec’s that these parts are built to are negotiated between the supplier 
and the OEM.
In some cases they are the property of the OEM and the spec is their control 
drawing on
the part. In other cases the drawing is done by the supplier for that OEM and 
is property
of the supplier. 

The OEM often has competitors. They would *love* to get access to the OEM’s 
control
drawings to see how the systems are designed. The supplier has competitors. They
would love to get access to the suppliers drawings so they can make cheap knock 
off
parts to those drawings. In both cases, the drawings (in general) have very 
real value. 

The net result of this is that both suppliers and OEM’s put fairly fancy rules 
in place about
passing out drawings. More or less anything up to and including being boiled in 
oil is
(if legal in the jurisdiction) fair recourse under most of these rules. 
Needless to say
people learn pretty quick that you get fired for this sort of thing. 

The net result is that the drawings for most OCXO’s simply do not exist in the 
public
domain. They do (or did) exist in some form somewhere. Getting at public copies 
of 
them is highly unlikely. Going by “similar looking” drawings is not a real good 
idea ….

Bob

   
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[paul swed]

Man O man I am loosing track here.
The s30 makes it a ttl part. So 12 V would have smoked it.
Seems like an easy fix for that piece at least.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> That seems the most reasonable thing to do.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:
>
>> It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts.
>> Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley" <
>> preilley_...@comcast.net>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
>> time-nuts@febo.com>
>> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
>>
>>
>> The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it
>>> there. I should
>>> have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said
>>> 12 volts.
>>> All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.
>>>
>>> Pete.
>>>
>>> On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
>>>
 I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix
 to
 look at.
 So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
 OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
 crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
 engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
 74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
 Good luck.
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:

 On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>
> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
>> blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.
>>
>> There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
>>
> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and
> you
> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>
>
> ___
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>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Roughly 99.9% of all OCXO’s made go to large OEM customers. The percentage may
actually be a bit higher than that. There are relatively few markets that 
“catalog” OCXO’s 
sell into.

Inevitably the first thing that an OEM wants is some form of customization. A 
specific 
supply voltage, a certain output format, a wider (or narrower) EFC range … there
are lots of possibilities. For every OCXO that goes into production for these 
guys, 
five or ten other designs are done (all equally custom) that never see the 
light of day
past the samples.

The spec’s that these parts are built to are negotiated between the supplier 
and the OEM.
In some cases they are the property of the OEM and the spec is their control 
drawing on
the part. In other cases the drawing is done by the supplier for that OEM and 
is property
of the supplier. 

The OEM often has competitors. They would *love* to get access to the OEM’s 
control
drawings to see how the systems are designed. The supplier has competitors. They
would love to get access to the suppliers drawings so they can make cheap knock 
off
parts to those drawings. In both cases, the drawings (in general) have very 
real value. 

The net result of this is that both suppliers and OEM’s put fairly fancy rules 
in place about
passing out drawings. More or less anything up to and including being boiled in 
oil is
(if legal in the jurisdiction) fair recourse under most of these rules. 
Needless to say
people learn pretty quick that you get fired for this sort of thing. 

The net result is that the drawings for most OCXO’s simply do not exist in the 
public
domain. They do (or did) exist in some form somewhere. Getting at public copies 
of 
them is highly unlikely. Going by “similar looking” drawings is not a real good 
idea ….

Bob



> On Oct 28, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Peter Reilley  wrote:
> 
> I don't know, I looked for a name and could not find one.
> Sometimes there is no substitute for a big block of copper when soldering.
> I pick them up at flea markets, no one wants them.   I have a few.
> 
> Pete.
> 
> On 10/28/2016 12:27 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
>> That's one sweet soldering iron. Is it an American Beauty ?
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

That seems the most reasonable thing to do.

Pete


On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:
It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 
volts. Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?



- Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley" 

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
there. I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find 
said 12 volts.

All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great 
pix to

look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:


On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:

The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also 
be a

blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, 
and you

put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Adrian Godwin]

The data sheet for the device only mentions 12V. Other data sheets (eg the
131) mention 5V and 12V, but don't indicate how to specify one or the
other.

Gerry Sweeny's article at
http://gerrysweeney.com/diy-hpagilent-53131a-010-high-stability-timebase-option/
mentions a part number suffix that distinguishes two choices but this
doesn't appear in the main datasheet. Other writers here have in the past
mentioned that the suffix has no predefined meaning and is used only to
distinguish design variants internally.

It appears that Isotemp do offer a choice of voltage options but don't like
to document it publicly. Tom Miller's strategy seems the safest if using a
surplus device.

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it
> there.   I should
> have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 12
> volts.
> All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.
>
> Pete.
>
>
> On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
>
>> I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix to
>> look at.
>> So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
>> OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
>> crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
>> engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
>> 74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
>> Good luck.
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:
>>
>> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>>>
>>> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
 blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

 There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,

>>> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and you
>>> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

I don't know, I looked for a name and could not find one.
Sometimes there is no substitute for a big block of copper when soldering.
I pick them up at flea markets, no one wants them.   I have a few.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:27 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:

That's one sweet soldering iron. Is it an American Beauty ?




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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
there.   I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 
12 volts.

All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:

I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix to
look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:


On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:


The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,

fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and you
put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

There is no regulator in the unit.   The power pin is connected directly 
to the S30 chip.


Pete.


On 10/28/2016 1:31 PM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

Have you measured the voltage on the 'power' pin for the chip with 12 V applied 
to the OCXO (or 5 V applied)?

Is there a 5 V regulator on the board?

Joe

-Original Message-
From: Peter Reilley [mailto:preilley_...@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 9:11 AM
To: J. L. Trantham
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

Thanks for the link.   I did not find any S30 chips that would run off
12 volts.

Could the whole OCXO be a 5 volt unit?

Pete.


On 10/28/2016 9:53 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

Peter,

Thanks for the update.

No time to spend right now but I found this by googling 'TI S30 SOIC chip'

http://www.ti.com/packaging/docs/partlookup.tsp#divline

Hope it helps.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: Peter Reilley [mailto:preilley_...@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 8:24 AM
To: J. L. Trantham
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

I did finally get it open.   I used a very large old style soldering
iron and .003 inch steel
shim stock.   I would melt the solder on the straight seams and insert
small pieces of
the shim.   Solder does not stick well to steel so the shim kept the
soldered seam open.
I used a soldering iron rather than a torch because I can control the 
temperature.

I could not use the shim at the corners.   After all the straight seams
were separated
I could pull each corner using a screw in the mounting hole and melt the solder 
at
the corner.   Slowly working my way around, corner by corner, I got it
opened.   I did
not damage anything so I should be able to close it up after I fix it.

Looking around with my scope it seems that the output driver chip is bad as I 
expected.
It is a TI 14 pin surface mount DIP.   It says S30 on it which if it is
a 74S30 it is an
8 input positive NAND gate.   The board layout confirms this as the 10
MHz signal is
connected to pin 2 and all other inputs are tied high.   Pin 8 is
connected to the output.
The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.   But I cannot find any
chip like that
that will run off 12 volts.   Any suggestions for a replacement?

Also, using an 8 input NAND chip for a driver seems an odd choice.

When I put 12 volts on the unit the S30 chip gets really hot. After I removed 
the chip
the unit seems to work OK.   The current jumps between about .1 amp to
.9 amps.   It seems
like the temperature regulator is an on/off type controller.

The device on eBay, item 261920574725, looks exactly like what I have.

I have placed a bunch of pictures in my dropbox.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/52e9d1rva9kpb3w/AABmbIj1aK7Zk2J9SNMmu-JAa?d
l=0

Pete.


On 10/18/2016 10:57 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

Pete,

I'm not familiar with your OCXO but I found one shown on 'theBay' (item  
261920574725) and it appeared to have an option for 'mounting screws', four of 
them, on the bottom.  Interestingly, the 'link' to the datasheet for that unit 
did not show threads for mounting screws.

If your unit has that option, I would suggest placing four long screws, 
mounting the item in a vise, use a small torch (I've used a hand held propane 
torch turned down very low to open a number of units from 5061A's) around the 
bottom of the case while gripping the top with an appropriate sized Channel 
Lock plier and lifting off the top.

If you can repair the OCXO, it should be easy to reassemble the unit with 
solder.

TheBay unit looks like it has a screw cover (which likely has a rubber gasket) 
for mechanical adjustment of the frequency.  I'd remove that before applying 
the torch. :^).

If you get it open, I'd love to see some pictures of the insides.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Joe



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of
Peter Reilley
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:11 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

I bought an Isotemp OCXO82-59 with a frequency of 10 MHz for a $3 at the MIT 
flea market.
As expected it was dead.   It heats up as expected but looking at the
output with a scope there
is nothing.   However looking at the output with a spectrum analyzer I
can see a faint 10 MHz
signal.   It seems that the oscillator is running but the output
circuitry is dead.   Reasonable
assumption?

Anyway, has anyone had any luck unsoldering the tin case without destroying it?

Pete.

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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

There is no regulator chip in the unit.   I am thinking that this must
be a 5 volt unit.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:42 PM, Dan Rae wrote:

On 10/28/2016 9:09 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:

The only document that I could find said 12 volt.

Pete.
The 82 series came in a lot of flavors.  I have one 82-49 which is 
definitely 12V ( draws 0.12A when warm and maybe 0.3 when cold) and 
has a 5V pp square wave output at 10 MHz.  It also has a Vref output 
and an EFC input.  What is odd about this one is that it came to me 
from a TRW swap meet scrap dealer who bought stuff from Cubic 
Communications in San Diego and it had a "Reject" tag from them. 
Probably because it was supposed to be a 5 MHz unit as marked, so 
presumably had the wrong crystal fitted by Isotemp. Other versions of 
the 82 series (-10) were fitted to Racal Receivers like the 
RA6790/GM.  Screw adjustment on the side and 5 MHz output.


Are you sure yours shouldn't have a 5V supply on that output IC? Could 
be why it died if there is an internal regulator that failed putting 
the full supply voltage on the IC?


Dan





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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Tom Miller]

When I have an unknown OCXO, I put a scope on the output and connect a bench 
power supply to the DC inputs. I bring up the voltage until the RF out hits 
a stable level. That is where the internal regulator starts regulating. Then 
set it to the nearest normal power supply voltage, +5, +12, +15, +24, +28 
volts.


Some OCXOs will have separate inputs for the oscillator and the oven. 
Example- an HP OCXO has a +15 regulated input that is switched for the 
oscillator and a +24 volt input for the oven that is on always. I usually 
try the same voltage as the oscillator first and watch the current as the 
oven warms up. If it takes too long to heat up, try a little higher voltage.


Some units have a separate ground return for the oscillator and oven so you 
need to watch that.


Good luck and thanks for the report.

Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO



The only document that I could find said 12 volt.

Pete.


On 10/28/2016 11:49 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message <10a3ea7d-37f0-51bc-2470-35645d767...@comcast.net>, Peter 
Reilley writes:



The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.

Or the OCXO is not a 12V model ?




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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Scott Stobbe]

I wounder if originally the designer was hoping to use all 8 wire or'd
inputs to lower the input referred noise during midscale transition. Then
backed out later for some reason.

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Scott Stobbe 
wrote:

> Could also be a quirk about the 74S30 that gives it better phase noise
> over a basic buffer.
>
>
> On Friday, 28 October 2016, jimlux  wrote:
>
>> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>>
>>> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
>>> blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.
>>>
>>> There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
>> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and you
>> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Adrian Godwin]

The 1k resistor doesn't seem to feed the 'S30'. It looks as though pin 14
(Vcc) goes via that thick track to the +12 input.

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:46 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/28/16 8:31 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
>
> Looking around with my scope it seems that the output driver chip is bad
>> as I expected.   It is a TI 14 pin surface mount DIP.   It says S30 on it
>> which if it is a 74S30 it is an 8 input positive NAND gate.   The board
>> layout confirms this as the 10 MHz signal is connected to pin 2 and all
>> other inputs are tied high.   Pin 8 is connected to the output.
>>
>> The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.   But I cannot find any
>> chip like that that will run off 12 volts.   Any suggestions for a
>> replacement?
>>
>> Also, using an 8 input NAND chip for a driver seems an odd choice.
>>
>>
> could it be some sort of 74C series? if it's intended to run off 12V, a
> lot of the CMOS parts can run at almost any Vdd (a virtue of 4000 series
> CMOS - 15V power, no problem)
>
> Maybe they got a good price on the 8 input NAND parts?
>
> If unused pins are tied high, it's unlikely that they are outputs - most
> parts are either a totem pole or open collector output, neither one of
> which would like being tied high.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Scott Stobbe]

Could also be a quirk about the 74S30 that gives it better phase noise over
a basic buffer.

On Friday, 28 October 2016, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>
>> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
>> blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.
>>
>> There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and you
> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[jimlux]

On 10/28/16 8:31 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:


Looking around with my scope it seems that the output driver chip is bad
as I expected.   It is a TI 14 pin surface mount DIP.   It says S30 on it
which if it is a 74S30 it is an 8 input positive NAND gate.   The board
layout confirms this as the 10 MHz signal is connected to pin 2 and all
other inputs are tied high.   Pin 8 is connected to the output.

The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.   But I cannot find any
chip like that that will run off 12 volts.   Any suggestions for a
replacement?

Also, using an 8 input NAND chip for a driver seems an odd choice.



could it be some sort of 74C series? if it's intended to run off 12V, a 
lot of the CMOS parts can run at almost any Vdd (a virtue of 4000 series 
CMOS - 15V power, no problem)


Maybe they got a good price on the 8 input NAND parts?

If unused pins are tied high, it's unlikely that they are outputs - most 
parts are either a totem pole or open collector output, neither one of 
which would like being tied high.




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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[paul swed]

I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix to
look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>
>> The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
>> blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.
>>
>> There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
> fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and you
> put 12V on it, it will cook.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[jimlux]

On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:

The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast, 
fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
you put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Dan Rae]

On 10/28/2016 9:09 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:

The only document that I could find said 12 volt.

Pete.
The 82 series came in a lot of flavors.  I have one 82-49 which is 
definitely 12V ( draws 0.12A when warm and maybe 0.3 when cold) and has 
a 5V pp square wave output at 10 MHz.  It also has a Vref output and an 
EFC input.  What is odd about this one is that it came to me from a TRW 
swap meet scrap dealer who bought stuff from Cubic Communications in San 
Diego and it had a "Reject" tag from them. Probably because it was 
supposed to be a 5 MHz unit as marked, so presumably had the wrong 
crystal fitted by Isotemp.  Other versions of the 82 series (-10) were 
fitted to Racal Receivers like the RA6790/GM.  Screw adjustment on the 
side and 5 MHz output.


Are you sure yours shouldn't have a 5V supply on that output IC? Could 
be why it died if there is an internal regulator that failed putting the 
full supply voltage on the IC?


Dan


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Graham / KE9H]

Here is the TI document on "Case Marking."  It may not be a 74S30.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snoa039c/snoa039c.pdf

--- Graham

==

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

> That's one sweet soldering iron. Is it an American Beauty ?
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Peter Reilley 
> wrote:
>
> > I did finally get it open.   I used a very large old style soldering
> > iron and .003 inch steel shim stock.   I would melt the solder on the
> > straight seams and insert small pieces of the shim.   Solder does not
> > stick well to steel so the shim kept the soldered seam open.
> > I used a soldering iron rather than a torch because I can control the
> > temperature.
> >
> > I could not use the shim at the corners.   After all the straight seams
> > were separated I could pull each corner using a screw in the mounting
> > hole and melt the solder at the corner.   Slowly working my way around,
> > corner by corner, I got it opened.   I did not damage anything so I
> > should be able to close it up after I fix it.
> >
> > Looking around with my scope it seems that the output driver chip is bad
> > as I expected.   It is a TI 14 pin surface mount DIP.   It says S30 on it
> > which if it is a 74S30 it is an 8 input positive NAND gate.   The board
> > layout confirms this as the 10 MHz signal is connected to pin 2 and all
> > other inputs are tied high.   Pin 8 is connected to the output.
> >
> > The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.   But I cannot find any
> > chip like that that will run off 12 volts.   Any suggestions for a
> > replacement?
> >
> > Also, using an 8 input NAND chip for a driver seems an odd choice.
> >
> > When I put 12 volts on the unit the S30 chip gets really hot. After I
> > removed the chip the unit seems to work OK.   The current jumps between
> > about .1 amp to .9 amps.   It seems like the temperature regulator is
> > an on/off type controller.
> >
> > The device on eBay, item 261920574725, looks exactly like what I have.
> >
> > I have placed a bunch of pictures in my dropbox.
> > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/52e9d1rva9kpb3w/
> AABmbIj1aK7Zk2J9SNMmu-JAa?dl=0
> >
> > Pete.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/18/2016 10:57 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:
> >
> >> Pete,
> >>
> >> I'm not familiar with your OCXO but I found one shown on 'theBay' (item
> >> 261920574725) and it appeared to have an option for 'mounting screws',
> four
> >> of them, on the bottom.  Interestingly, the 'link' to the datasheet for
> >> that unit did not show threads for mounting screws.
> >>
> >> If your unit has that option, I would suggest placing four long screws,
> >> mounting the item in a vise, use a small torch (I've used a hand held
> >> propane torch turned down very low to open a number of units from
> 5061A's)
> >> around the bottom of the case while gripping the top with an appropriate
> >> sized Channel Lock plier and lifting off the top.
> >>
> >> If you can repair the OCXO, it should be easy to reassemble the unit
> with
> >> solder.
> >>
> >> TheBay unit looks like it has a screw cover (which likely has a rubber
> >> gasket) for mechanical adjustment of the frequency.  I'd remove that
> before
> >> applying the torch. :^).
> >>
> >> If you get it open, I'd love to see some pictures of the insides.
> >>
> >> Good luck and hope this helps.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter
> >> Reilley
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:11 AM
> >> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
> >>
> >> I bought an Isotemp OCXO82-59 with a frequency of 10 MHz for a $3 at the
> >> MIT flea market.
> >> As expected it was dead.   It heats up as expected but looking at the
> >> output with a scope there
> >> is nothing.   However looking at the output with a spectrum analyzer I
> >> can see a faint 10 MHz
> >> signal.   It seems that the oscillator is running but the output
> >> circuitry is dead.   Reasonable
> >> assumption?
> >>
> >> Anyway, has anyone had any luck unsoldering the tin case without
> >> destroying it?
> >>
> >> Pete.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> > ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Adrian Godwin]

That's one sweet soldering iron. Is it an American Beauty ?


On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Peter Reilley 
wrote:

> I did finally get it open.   I used a very large old style soldering
> iron and .003 inch steel shim stock.   I would melt the solder on the
> straight seams and insert small pieces of the shim.   Solder does not
> stick well to steel so the shim kept the soldered seam open.
> I used a soldering iron rather than a torch because I can control the
> temperature.
>
> I could not use the shim at the corners.   After all the straight seams
> were separated I could pull each corner using a screw in the mounting
> hole and melt the solder at the corner.   Slowly working my way around,
> corner by corner, I got it opened.   I did not damage anything so I
> should be able to close it up after I fix it.
>
> Looking around with my scope it seems that the output driver chip is bad
> as I expected.   It is a TI 14 pin surface mount DIP.   It says S30 on it
> which if it is a 74S30 it is an 8 input positive NAND gate.   The board
> layout confirms this as the 10 MHz signal is connected to pin 2 and all
> other inputs are tied high.   Pin 8 is connected to the output.
>
> The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.   But I cannot find any
> chip like that that will run off 12 volts.   Any suggestions for a
> replacement?
>
> Also, using an 8 input NAND chip for a driver seems an odd choice.
>
> When I put 12 volts on the unit the S30 chip gets really hot. After I
> removed the chip the unit seems to work OK.   The current jumps between
> about .1 amp to .9 amps.   It seems like the temperature regulator is
> an on/off type controller.
>
> The device on eBay, item 261920574725, looks exactly like what I have.
>
> I have placed a bunch of pictures in my dropbox.
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/52e9d1rva9kpb3w/AABmbIj1aK7Zk2J9SNMmu-JAa?dl=0
>
> Pete.
>
>
>
>
> On 10/18/2016 10:57 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:
>
>> Pete,
>>
>> I'm not familiar with your OCXO but I found one shown on 'theBay' (item
>> 261920574725) and it appeared to have an option for 'mounting screws', four
>> of them, on the bottom.  Interestingly, the 'link' to the datasheet for
>> that unit did not show threads for mounting screws.
>>
>> If your unit has that option, I would suggest placing four long screws,
>> mounting the item in a vise, use a small torch (I've used a hand held
>> propane torch turned down very low to open a number of units from 5061A's)
>> around the bottom of the case while gripping the top with an appropriate
>> sized Channel Lock plier and lifting off the top.
>>
>> If you can repair the OCXO, it should be easy to reassemble the unit with
>> solder.
>>
>> TheBay unit looks like it has a screw cover (which likely has a rubber
>> gasket) for mechanical adjustment of the frequency.  I'd remove that before
>> applying the torch. :^).
>>
>> If you get it open, I'd love to see some pictures of the insides.
>>
>> Good luck and hope this helps.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter
>> Reilley
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:11 AM
>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO
>>
>> I bought an Isotemp OCXO82-59 with a frequency of 10 MHz for a $3 at the
>> MIT flea market.
>> As expected it was dead.   It heats up as expected but looking at the
>> output with a scope there
>> is nothing.   However looking at the output with a spectrum analyzer I
>> can see a faint 10 MHz
>> signal.   It seems that the oscillator is running but the output
>> circuitry is dead.   Reasonable
>> assumption?
>>
>> Anyway, has anyone had any luck unsoldering the tin case without
>> destroying it?
>>
>> Pete.
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>>
> ___
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> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Scott Stobbe]

The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

On Friday, 28 October 2016, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:

> 
> In message <10a3ea7d-37f0-51bc-2470-35645d767...@comcast.net
> >, Peter Reilley writes:
>
> >The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.
>
> Or the OCXO is not a 12V model ?
>
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

The only document that I could find said 12 volt.

Pete.


On 10/28/2016 11:49 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message <10a3ea7d-37f0-51bc-2470-35645d767...@comcast.net>, Peter Reilley 
writes:


The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.

Or the OCXO is not a 12V model ?




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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <10a3ea7d-37f0-51bc-2470-35645d767...@comcast.net>, Peter Reilley 
writes:

>The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.

Or the OCXO is not a 12V model ?


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Peter Reilley]

I did finally get it open.   I used a very large old style soldering
iron and .003 inch steel shim stock.   I would melt the solder on the
straight seams and insert small pieces of the shim.   Solder does not
stick well to steel so the shim kept the soldered seam open.
I used a soldering iron rather than a torch because I can control the
temperature.

I could not use the shim at the corners.   After all the straight seams
were separated I could pull each corner using a screw in the mounting
hole and melt the solder at the corner.   Slowly working my way around,
corner by corner, I got it opened.   I did not damage anything so I
should be able to close it up after I fix it.

Looking around with my scope it seems that the output driver chip is bad
as I expected.   It is a TI 14 pin surface mount DIP.   It says S30 on it
which if it is a 74S30 it is an 8 input positive NAND gate.   The board
layout confirms this as the 10 MHz signal is connected to pin 2 and all
other inputs are tied high.   Pin 8 is connected to the output.

The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.   But I cannot find any
chip like that that will run off 12 volts.   Any suggestions for a replacement?

Also, using an 8 input NAND chip for a driver seems an odd choice.

When I put 12 volts on the unit the S30 chip gets really hot. After I
removed the chip the unit seems to work OK.   The current jumps between
about .1 amp to .9 amps.   It seems like the temperature regulator is
an on/off type controller.

The device on eBay, item 261920574725, looks exactly like what I have.

I have placed a bunch of pictures in my dropbox.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/52e9d1rva9kpb3w/AABmbIj1aK7Zk2J9SNMmu-JAa?dl=0

Pete.



On 10/18/2016 10:57 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

Pete,

I'm not familiar with your OCXO but I found one shown on 'theBay' (item  
261920574725) and it appeared to have an option for 'mounting screws', four of 
them, on the bottom.  Interestingly, the 'link' to the datasheet for that unit 
did not show threads for mounting screws.

If your unit has that option, I would suggest placing four long screws, 
mounting the item in a vise, use a small torch (I've used a hand held propane 
torch turned down very low to open a number of units from 5061A's) around the 
bottom of the case while gripping the top with an appropriate sized Channel 
Lock plier and lifting off the top.

If you can repair the OCXO, it should be easy to reassemble the unit with 
solder.

TheBay unit looks like it has a screw cover (which likely has a rubber gasket) 
for mechanical adjustment of the frequency.  I'd remove that before applying 
the torch. :^).

If you get it open, I'd love to see some pictures of the insides.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Joe



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Reilley
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:11 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

I bought an Isotemp OCXO82-59 with a frequency of 10 MHz for a $3 at the MIT 
flea market.
As expected it was dead.   It heats up as expected but looking at the
output with a scope there
is nothing.   However looking at the output with a spectrum analyzer I
can see a faint 10 MHz
signal.   It seems that the oscillator is running but the output
circuitry is dead.   Reasonable
assumption?

Anyway, has anyone had any luck unsoldering the tin case without destroying it?

Pete.

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https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




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Re: [time-nuts] Timing from Iridium satellites

[paul swed]

Stewart,
Thank you for sharing this information. I had heard of the testing but
little detail and like all time-nuts curious.
I have the same question as Hal, whats available. I am spoiled by some of
the amazing freeware today that allows a time-nut to obtain some great
technology at a reasonable price.
But that said when I looked at the timing graphs, the performance did not
appear that great. Not throwing stones here as I simply maybe
misunderstanding what I am seeing.
Thanks again.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:07 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> stewart.c...@gmail.com said:
> > I hope this is not too blatantly commercial for this list
>
> Looks good to me.  Thanks.
>
> Are the specs for extracting timing from Iridium available without NDA or
> $$$?
>
> Page 6 shows several hardware boards/boxes.  The NooElec NESDR Mini 2 USB
> Stick seems like the only one that is both low cost and available.  Is any
> (free) software available?  I assume it would work with similar USB based
> RF front ends.
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Difference in manufacturing for fundamental tone, 3rd, and 5th overtone crystals

[jimlux]

On 10/28/16 5:03 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If you look at the mode shapes for the various overtones, their energy
maxima are at different locations on the blank. If you put an electrode on
top of the 3rd overtone energy pattern (and avoid the fundamental pattern)
you will boost the 3rd and reduce the fundamental. You can actually find
examples of this in production.

A more aggressive approach would be to “sort circuit” the fundamental energy
so that the fundamental went down even further. While it can be done, I have
never seen a production example of doing this.



Fascinating.. this is similar to the reason piano hammers strike 1/7th 
of the way from the end of the string - to suppress that particular 
overtone, which is dissonant.


And, the whole "playing a harmonic" on a guitar is exactly what you're 
talking about with picks replacing electrode positions..


https://www.guitarlessonworld.com/lessons/harmonics/ is the first hit I 
got on google and explains it.


There's all sorts of harmonic maps for guitar (where to pluck or push)

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Re: [time-nuts] Difference in manufacturing for fundamental tone, 3rd, and 5th overtone crystals

[Bob Camp]

HI

Roughly 99% of it is buried away in the heads of a few dozen people around 
the world.

Bob


> On Oct 28, 2016, at 4:24 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> Hoi Bob,
> 
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 19:50:46 -0400
> Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> Crystals are highly optimized for the specific overtone they are
>> intended to operate on. In fact, you can fiddle them to the point
>> that they no longer have a “fundamental” response.
> 
> Interesting, thanks!
> 
> Do you have any references I could read on how this is done?
> Or anything else on how crystals are manufactured and optimized?
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Difference in manufacturing for fundamental tone, 3rd, and 5th overtone crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you look at the mode shapes for the various overtones, their energy
maxima are at different locations on the blank. If you put an electrode on
top of the 3rd overtone energy pattern (and avoid the fundamental pattern)
you will boost the 3rd and reduce the fundamental. You can actually find
examples of this in production.

A more aggressive approach would be to “sort circuit” the fundamental energy 
so that the fundamental went down even further. While it can be done, I have
never seen a production example of doing this. 

Bob

> On Oct 27, 2016, at 11:31 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/27/2016 4:50 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Crystals are highly optimized for the specific overtone they are
>> intended to operate on. In fact, you can fiddle them to the point
>> that they no longer have a “fundamental” response.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
> 
> That's interesting.  Every overtone crystal I have played with
> would happily oscillate at the fundamental.  How do they
> get rid of the fundamental?
> 
> Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] Difference in manufacturing for fundamental tone, 3rd, and 5th overtone crystals

[Attila Kinali]

Hoi Bob,

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 19:50:46 -0400
Bob Camp  wrote:

> Crystals are highly optimized for the specific overtone they are
> intended to operate on. In fact, you can fiddle them to the point
> that they no longer have a “fundamental” response.

Interesting, thanks!

Do you have any references I could read on how this is done?
Or anything else on how crystals are manufactured and optimized?

Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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[time-nuts] Concrete basement moisture proofing

[Perry Sandeen via time-nuts]

Hi,
I have rehabed three houses that I have owned that have cement basements. All 
three were in Colorado.

Bare concrete will weep moisture.  The solution is to paint (actually spread) a 
product made by UGL.  It is $125 for a five gallon bucket.  It is a latex based 
product that seals the surface.

Any exterior concrete wall will suck out heat in the winter and needs to be 
insulated.

In the two housed with full basements I used 2 x 4 studs on 16 inch centers and 
filled the space with IIRC R 13 fiberglass insulation.  That was all that was 
practical at the time but still cold was conducted to the interior in the 
winter.

The third house we had in the mountains outside of Westcliffe, Co and had a 4 
foot stem wall.  About the upper third part of the shorter back wall was open 
to the elements.
I bought 4 x 8 foot panels of 2 inch foam that was covered on one side with 
aluminum foil at Home Depot.  They were about $25 a sheet.
I covered the stem wall on all sides with two layers of insulation as well as 
the rim joists.
Since we were at 9,000 ft moisture was not a problem.
Even though it was well below zero F much of the winter, the electronic 
thermometer probe on the floor which I monitored all winter stayed a 54F.
Now the fact that we had a 450 gallon water cistern in the crawl space probably 
helped to some extent as the crawl space was 30 x 40 ft.
If I was building a temperature controlled room with an exterior concrete wall 
I'd seal it with UGL and put a 4 inch layer of foam to stop exterior heat 
variations. 
When I had a work shop in TN, I stapled aluminium screening material from Home 
Depot to RF proof my exterior walls. If one chooses this method, an electric 
staple gun or better yet, an air driven staple gun makes it a relatively 
reasonable project.
Remember if one goes the old refrigerator route that  some states (CO, CA) for 
example have extremely strict requirements for the old refrigerant to be 
removed and tagged by  licensed  personal (or else...). Just FFT.
Regards,
Perrier



 
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