Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[cfo]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:32:36 -0800, Arthur Dent wrote:

 The 6680 in the
> attached photo is a little different than most because it has a
> Datum/Symmetricom X72 rubidium oscillator I installed for the internal
> time base.
> 
> -Arthur
> 
> http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/
rjb1998/6680battery_zpsb93793b7.jpg

Thanx Arthur.

I have an X72 here and some FEI-5680A's 

Could you share some info , maybe off-list

TIA
CFO



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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I'm not quite sure if the 1740 is a counter or not. I have a few of them
sitting here, but they are a bear to do anything useful with. They make the
5371 look like a portable instrument.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:35 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

A bit late in the thread but I don't see the HP E1740A

-pete


On 1/14/13, Jonatan Walck  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 2013-01-11 02:48, Bob Camp wrote:
>> HI
>>
>> One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as
>> a timing device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after
>> frequency only, they occasionally show up for quite a bit less than
>> the 53131's. As a frequency counter, they have the same performance
>> as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, and 230's are small enough
>> to lug around.
>>
>> Bob
>
> I'll find uses for a full TIC rather than just a fequency counter, but
> I absorb all this knowledge happily either way and it's good to have
> that here as a reference.
>
> I initially found the 53131A and everything above it to steep for my
> first home lab TIC but you are right about the size, they are quite
> small. (Having access to 53131's through work.)
>
>
> As great luck would have it though, I found a second hand Pendulum
> CNT-90 and I got a too good deal to hold back my trigger finger.
> Picked it up yesterday! Made no measurements past "does it start up
> and can it detect any frequency?" yet but will put it to good use soon.
>
> I wouldn't have know what to look for and find this TIC without this
> list. A big thanks to all time-nuts once again!
>
> // jwalck
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> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Pete Lancashire]

A bit late in the thread but I don't see the HP E1740A

-pete


On 1/14/13, Jonatan Walck  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 2013-01-11 02:48, Bob Camp wrote:
>> HI
>>
>> One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as
>> a timing device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after
>> frequency only, they occasionally show up for quite a bit less than
>> the 53131's. As a frequency counter, they have the same performance
>> as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, and 230's are small enough
>> to lug around.
>>
>> Bob
>
> I'll find uses for a full TIC rather than just a fequency counter, but
> I absorb all this knowledge happily either way and it's good to have
> that here as a reference.
>
> I initially found the 53131A and everything above it to steep for my
> first home lab TIC but you are right about the size, they are quite
> small. (Having access to 53131's through work.)
>
>
> As great luck would have it though, I found a second hand Pendulum
> CNT-90 and I got a too good deal to hold back my trigger finger.
> Picked it up yesterday! Made no measurements past "does it start up
> and can it detect any frequency?" yet but will put it to good use soon.
>
> I wouldn't have know what to look for and find this TIC without this
> list. A big thanks to all time-nuts once again!
>
> // jwalck
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/
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>
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[time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Arthur Dent]

>> The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem ,
>> but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds
>> like that's not a good thing.
>> I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81.
>>
>> CFO - Tnut-Beginner
>> Denmark

The battery in the 6680 is just a CR2032 with legs so it isn't a big deal to 
replace it. Attached is a photo showing the 6680 battery in the lower left 
corner of the photo with the yellow plastic around it for those who would 
like to see what would be involved in changing it. Both the 6680 and the 
6680B counters that I own have batteries that have been in at least 6 
years and both batteries still read very good so replacing them isn't 
something you would have to do often. If you use the math or any of the 
other functions where you store a series of steps to recall later, the battery 
backed up memory is quite handy. The 6680 in the attached photo is a 
little different than most because it has a Datum/Symmetricom X72 
rubidium oscillator I installed for the internal time base. 

-Arthur

http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/6680battery_zpsb93793b7.jpg
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Jonatan Walck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 2013-01-11 02:48, Bob Camp wrote:
> HI
> 
> One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as
> a timing device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after
> frequency only, they occasionally show up for quite a bit less than
> the 53131's. As a frequency counter, they have the same performance
> as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, and 230's are small enough
> to lug around.
> 
> Bob

I'll find uses for a full TIC rather than just a fequency counter, but
I absorb all this knowledge happily either way and it's good to have
that here as a reference.

I initially found the 53131A and everything above it to steep for my
first home lab TIC but you are right about the size, they are quite
small. (Having access to 53131's through work.)


As great luck would have it though, I found a second hand Pendulum
CNT-90 and I got a too good deal to hold back my trigger finger.
Picked it up yesterday! Made no measurements past "does it start up
and can it detect any frequency?" yet but will put it to good use soon.

I wouldn't have know what to look for and find this TIC without this
list. A big thanks to all time-nuts once again!

// jwalck
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Chris Howard]

On 1/12/2013 7:40 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

> 
> At 250 ps you use interpolators. The typical coarse counter would be 100 MHz 
> and that means 10 ns in raw resolution, but you would then use an 
> interpolator to get higher resolution. By getting a start and stop measure, 
> roughly tau time inbetween each other you get
> f = (t_stop - t_start)/tau
> assuming t_start and t_stop trigger from the same source.
> 

This may not be of interest, and if so, I'll drop it.
But I was thinking that if they go to some kind of
fallback interpolation the time interval measurements
at a more-or-less fixed frequency might still be
pretty good.

(I think along these lines because maybe someday
a battery-bad unit might show up which is not so good
at umpty-GHz measurements but still OK for TIC)

If it had a systematic error at 10MHz it seems
like maybe that would just fall out in the wash. (?)

Chris





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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 01/12/2013 01:37 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

OK, but I wasn't able to find a single shot resolution specification in its
datasheet. Looking at the formulas to determine the accuracy, it looks like
the minimum resolution is 250pS... anyway, by reading the user and service
manual I found out that the PM6685 has an EEPROM memory and no battery is
needed.


At 250 ps you use interpolators. The typical coarse counter would be 100 
MHz and that means 10 ns in raw resolution, but you would then use an 
interpolator to get higher resolution. By getting a start and stop 
measure, roughly tau time inbetween each other you get

f = (t_stop - t_start)/tau
assuming t_start and t_stop trigger from the same source.

For frequency measures you can overcome the single-shot resolution by 
using multiple start and stop locations and process the estimates.


BTW, some counters use quite different approaches for triggering and 
routing their TI measures and their frequency measures, to such degree 
that frequency trimming requires separate calibration. SR620 is one such 
example. Typically would the calibration error cause a static time error 
between start and stop, and scaling with tau is a good way to track it. 
Measuring it's own time-base is a good way to measure this calibration 
error and trim it out.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Azelio Boriani]

OK, but I wasn't able to find a single shot resolution specification in its
datasheet. Looking at the formulas to determine the accuracy, it looks like
the minimum resolution is 250pS... anyway, by reading the user and service
manual I found out that the PM6685 has an EEPROM memory and no battery is
needed.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> On 01/11/2013 09:09 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:
>
>> The PM6685 is a frequency counter, not a TIC, so it shouldn't suffer from
>> the battery problem.
>>
>
> It's single shot resolution would still be from the interpolator, even if
> you measure on the same signal.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 01/11/2013 09:09 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

The PM6685 is a frequency counter, not a TIC, so it shouldn't suffer from
the battery problem.


It's single shot resolution would still be from the interpolator, even 
if you measure on the same signal.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Azelio Boriani]

The PM6685 is a frequency counter, not a TIC, so it shouldn't suffer from
the battery problem.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> On 01/11/2013 03:51 PM, Chris Howard wrote:
>
>>
>>  The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem ,
 but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds
 like that's not a good thing.
 I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81.

 CFO - Tnut-Beginner
 Denmark

>>>
>>
>> Would loss of interpolation calibration have much impact on its use as a
>> TIC?
>>
>
> Yes, as that is what gives you the precision. I don't recall how bad it
> will get, but I ended up having the PM6681 calibrated.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 01/11/2013 03:51 PM, Chris Howard wrote:



The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem ,
but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds
like that's not a good thing.
I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81.

CFO - Tnut-Beginner
Denmark



Would loss of interpolation calibration have much impact on its use as a TIC?


Yes, as that is what gives you the precision. I don't recall how bad it 
will get, but I ended up having the PM6681 calibrated.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Chris Howard]

>> The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem ,
>> but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds
>> like that's not a good thing.
>> I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81.
>>
>> CFO - Tnut-Beginner
>> Denmark


Would loss of interpolation calibration have much impact on its use as a TIC?




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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Bob Camp]

HI

One thing missing from the list was the HP 53181. It's useless as a timing 
device and thus didn't get listed. If you are after frequency only, they 
occasionally show up for quite a bit less than the 53131's. As a frequency 
counter, they have the same performance as a '131. All of the 53131, 132, 181, 
and 230's are small enough to lug around.

Bob

On Jan 10, 2013, at 7:03 PM, Jonatan Walck  wrote:

> On 2013-01-10 23:14, Azelio Boriani wrote:
>> Yes, the battery on the PM6681 is a real problem, unless you have
>> the unobtainable calibration program. The program uses the GPIB to
>> perform the calibration: I have tried to figure out the GPIB
>> commands involved in the calibration process by looking at the
>> firmware dump... the commands are clear text. I wasn't able to find
>> anything.
> 
> I did read about the battery before, but did not know how severe the
> problem was. Thanks for the heads up! Does the PM6685 end up in the same
> category as 80 or 81 in this respect?
> 
> 
> I want to send a thank you to everyone participating on this thread, I'm
> sure I'm not alone looking for a (or another) time-nut friendly TIC.
> Finding one that's, "good enough" electrially (all parameters up to
> desired specs), user friendly, not humongous and affordable was harder
> than I initially thought it would be.
> 
> So far I've seen the Racal-Dana 1991/1992, horde of HP/Agilents and
> Philips/Fluke/Pendulum CNT-/PM66* mentioned here. Keeping a searching
> eye out for one that isn't 19" and doesn't weight too much given the
> frequency of which I will lug it around. Or failing that cheap enough
> to double up.:)
> 
> To me this so far means I'm primairly looking for Racal-Dana's as a
> cheap option or possibly PM66's if I can find them (much rarer here, but
> I like that they're made in Sweden!:). Are there any HP's I should keep
> a look out for, if I'm aiming for at least 1 ns resolution? Bob's list
> (a special thanks to you for the comprehensive list) left me with only
> finding either very expensive or very big ones in Europe.
> 
> 
> Any recommendations for where to look for timing equipment (TICs
> specifically but I guess it will be the same answer in general) in
> Europe besides the one all so familiar auction site? (Not that I have
> anything against ebay, just checking if there are any secondary sources.)
> 
> // jwalck
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Jonatan Walck]

On 2013-01-10 23:14, Azelio Boriani wrote:
> Yes, the battery on the PM6681 is a real problem, unless you have
> the unobtainable calibration program. The program uses the GPIB to
> perform the calibration: I have tried to figure out the GPIB
> commands involved in the calibration process by looking at the
> firmware dump... the commands are clear text. I wasn't able to find
> anything.

I did read about the battery before, but did not know how severe the
problem was. Thanks for the heads up! Does the PM6685 end up in the same
category as 80 or 81 in this respect?


I want to send a thank you to everyone participating on this thread, I'm
sure I'm not alone looking for a (or another) time-nut friendly TIC.
Finding one that's, "good enough" electrially (all parameters up to
desired specs), user friendly, not humongous and affordable was harder
than I initially thought it would be.

So far I've seen the Racal-Dana 1991/1992, horde of HP/Agilents and
Philips/Fluke/Pendulum CNT-/PM66* mentioned here. Keeping a searching
eye out for one that isn't 19" and doesn't weight too much given the
frequency of which I will lug it around. Or failing that cheap enough
to double up.:)

To me this so far means I'm primairly looking for Racal-Dana's as a
cheap option or possibly PM66's if I can find them (much rarer here, but
I like that they're made in Sweden!:). Are there any HP's I should keep
a look out for, if I'm aiming for at least 1 ns resolution? Bob's list
(a special thanks to you for the comprehensive list) left me with only
finding either very expensive or very big ones in Europe.


Any recommendations for where to look for timing equipment (TICs
specifically but I guess it will be the same answer in general) in
Europe besides the one all so familiar auction site? (Not that I have
anything against ebay, just checking if there are any secondary sources.)

// jwalck

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Azelio Boriani]

Yes, the battery on the PM6681 is a real problem, unless you have the
unobtainable calibration program. The program uses the GPIB to perform the
calibration: I have tried to figure out the GPIB commands involved in the
calibration process by looking at the firmware dump... the commands are
clear text. I wasn't able to find anything.

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 6:37 PM, cfo  wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:48:00 +0100, Azelio Boriani wrote:
>
> > and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS)
> >
> I have a PM6680 (250 or 300pS) i think , but it was within my budget.
>
> I just read the Service manual , and noticed that both the PM6680 & the
> 6681 has a battery inside that holds the settings.
> The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem ,
> but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds
> like that's not a good thing.
> I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81.
>
> CFO - Tnut-Beginner
> Denmark
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[cfo]

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:48:00 +0100, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS)
> 
I have a PM6680 (250 or 300pS) i think , but it was within my budget.

I just read the Service manual , and noticed that both the PM6680 & the 
6681 has a battery inside that holds the settings.
The manual states that loosing the settings on a 6680 is no big problem , 
but on the 6681 you loose the interpolator calibtation. And it sounds 
like that's not a good thing.
I didn't know you had to watch out for Battery on a PM6680/81.

CFO - Tnut-Beginner
Denmark
 


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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 01/10/2013 12:02 AM, Rex wrote:

On 1/9/2013 12:48 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS)


The PM6681 was sold by Fluke/Philips. The same counter is also
occasionally seen as the Pendulum CNT-81. Additional good features:
small, light, and quiet.


A bit more history then.

Philips had a sub-sidary called Philips Industrier Järfälla, located 
just outside Stockholm. They made amongst other things OCXOs and 
counters, but a numerous of other measuring gadgets. As Philips merged 
with Fluke for instruments, the Philips Industrier measurments gear also 
re-occured in their Fluke variant for the US market. They kept their 
PM model numbers. As Philips was retracting from the market, they 
sold of the T&F reminder of Philips Industrier and that was named 
Pendulum, which kept the connection with Fluke. This meant that the new 
counters coming out also came out in their Fluke variants. However, 
pendulum decided to strike out the PM66 prefix (for counters) for their 
Pendulum branded gear and had different prefixes such as 
CNT-80/81/85/90/90XL/91, GPS-12/88/89 and WM-10/11. Pendulum was sold 
off to SpectraCom, and it was run as a separate business for some time, 
but eventually the old company was dismantled and Pendulum remains as a 
brand within SpectraCom. The product range exists, except for the CNT-8x 
series which died off then the last of the custom counter chips ran out, 
besides what was kept for service of course. The CNT-9x series uses a 
FPGA as counter core. Today only a few of the original staff remains 
with SpectraCom. The CNT-90 has also appeared in Tektronix format.


I had some exchange with them as they where local to me.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Rex]

On 1/9/2013 12:48 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS)


The PM6681 was sold by Fluke/Philips. The same counter is also 
occasionally seen as the Pendulum CNT-81. Additional good features: 
small, light, and quiet.




On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Magnus Danielson
wrote:
On 01/09/2013 05:39 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:


In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the
relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the
5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even
better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized.


The 5371/5372 has a 200 ps resolution. They where designed to allow
extension to 100 ps resolution. The FLASH-interpolators have 200 ps steps,
sufficiently good trigger such that you get 150 ps resolution performance
on the white-noise limit.


Cheers,
Magnus




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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Azelio Boriani]

and don't forget the PM6681 (50pS)

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> On 01/09/2013 05:39 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
>
>> In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the
>> relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the
>> 5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even
>> better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized.
>>
>
> The 5371/5372 has a 200 ps resolution. They where designed to allow
> extension to 100 ps resolution. The FLASH-interpolators have 200 ps steps,
> sufficiently good trigger such that you get 150 ps resolution performance
> on the white-noise limit.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 01/09/2013 05:39 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:

In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the
relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the
5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units. There are other units that have even
better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized.


The 5371/5372 has a 200 ps resolution. They where designed to allow 
extension to 100 ps resolution. The FLASH-interpolators have 200 ps 
steps, sufficiently good trigger such that you get 150 ps resolution 
performance on the white-noise limit.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Keep in mind that the "good" prices are generally for gear that is in the
"don't know if it works at all" category. The prices go up quickly for stuff
that has had even basic checks run on it. 
It's rare to find any of this stuff with a believable iron clad guarantee /
certification that it runs 100% to original specs. I've seen a lot of gear
with cal stickers on it that doesn't do this or that correctly...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of dlewis6767
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 8:07 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

Thank you Bob, Ed, Magnus , ..and all.

Excellent reviews, ...detailed and clear.   I REALLY do appreciate it.

HP has turned out so much equipment over the years, it is often good to see 
a comparison.  This was excellent.

I'll wait for a good deal, and don the road bid alongside many of you , 
I presume.   :-)

I may opt for one of the better units, ...as this disease progresses.

-Don







--
From: "Bob Camp" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 6:43 AM
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

> Hi
>
> There are a number of counters that are a lot better than what you have. 
> There's also a limited amount of money in the universe. I'd suggest 
> setting a rational budget and time frame. This is all used gear. You 
> *might* get a perfect one that never ever breaks. More likely you will 
> need to get a couple and swap things around. I'd plan on buying 3 or 4 
> with what ever the budget is. If you get lucky, you come in under budget.
>
> Less fancy:
>
> 5334 - couple of ns resolution, nice and small, B is *very* different than

> the A so get one or the other
> 5335 - faster bigger heavier, one ns resolution.
>
> both should be around $100 before shipping.
>
> Very cool:
>
> 53131 500 ps resolution
> 53132 150 ps resolution
>
> both have displays that can wear out. They are no longer supported by HP 
> so you *might* find somebody dumping them. Hard to find for less than 
> $800.
>
> Big and heavy:
>
> 5371, 5372 same resolution as the 53132
>
> They don't show up much. I've seen them for $200. You probably should 
> expect to pay $400. Expect shipping to be non-trivial.
>
> High end:
>
> SR620
> 5370
> 53230a
>
> All are in the 20 ps range. You do see 5370's for $200. More commonly you 
> see them for quite a bit more. The 620's show up anywhere between $800 and

> $3000. The 53230a is brand new with a warranty from Agilent for about 
> $3700.
>
> That's just one set of parts. There are others. There are more issues than

> just price to consider. The 5371 is a *big* piece of gear. The 53xxx boxes

> are all small enough to carry around.
>
> Lots of choices.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 PM, dlewis6767  wrote:
>
>> Hi Magnus, good day.
>>
>> Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed.  I 
>> think I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a 
>> reasonably priced unit pops up.
>>
>> If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know.
>>
>> -Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Magnus Danielson" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
>>
>>> Hi Don,
>>>
>>> On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote:
>>>> I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with 
>>>> greater resolution.
>>>>
>>>> In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) 
>>>> and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one 
>>>> period.
>>>>
>>>> The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period

>>>> at 1 period).
>>>>
>>>> I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is 
>>>> the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one 
>>>> period)?
>>>>
>>>> Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is 
>>>> the better unit?  (Their display technology, age and cost not 
>>>> withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on 
>>>> eBay, seems, too. Not sure why

Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[dlewis6767]

Thank you Bob, Ed, Magnus , ..and all.

Excellent reviews, ...detailed and clear.   I REALLY do appreciate it.

HP has turned out so much equipment over the years, it is often good to see 
a comparison.  This was excellent.


I'll wait for a good deal, and don the road bid alongside many of you , 
I presume.   :-)


I may opt for one of the better units, ...as this disease progresses.

-Don







--
From: "Bob Camp" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 6:43 AM
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation


Hi

There are a number of counters that are a lot better than what you have. 
There's also a limited amount of money in the universe. I'd suggest 
setting a rational budget and time frame. This is all used gear. You 
*might* get a perfect one that never ever breaks. More likely you will 
need to get a couple and swap things around. I'd plan on buying 3 or 4 
with what ever the budget is. If you get lucky, you come in under budget.


Less fancy:

5334 - couple of ns resolution, nice and small, B is *very* different than 
the A so get one or the other

5335 - faster bigger heavier, one ns resolution.

both should be around $100 before shipping.

Very cool:

53131 500 ps resolution
53132 150 ps resolution

both have displays that can wear out. They are no longer supported by HP 
so you *might* find somebody dumping them. Hard to find for less than 
$800.


Big and heavy:

5371, 5372 same resolution as the 53132

They don't show up much. I've seen them for $200. You probably should 
expect to pay $400. Expect shipping to be non-trivial.


High end:

SR620
5370
53230a

All are in the 20 ps range. You do see 5370's for $200. More commonly you 
see them for quite a bit more. The 620's show up anywhere between $800 and 
$3000. The 53230a is brand new with a warranty from Agilent for about 
$3700.


That's just one set of parts. There are others. There are more issues than 
just price to consider. The 5371 is a *big* piece of gear. The 53xxx boxes 
are all small enough to carry around.


Lots of choices.

Bob

On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 PM, dlewis6767  wrote:


Hi Magnus, good day.

Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed.  I 
think I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a 
reasonably priced unit pops up.


If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know.

-Don






--
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation


Hi Don,

On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote:
I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with 
greater resolution.


In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) 
and just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one 
period.


The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period 
at 1 period).


I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is 
the best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one 
period)?


Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is 
the better unit?  (Their display technology, age and cost not 
withstanding.) All three models seem greatly overstated in price on 
eBay, seems, too. Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume.


Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts.


Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot 
resolution compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording 
high rate events.


I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also 
have counters of better performance than these.


Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns 
resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

There are a number of counters that are a lot better than what you have. 
There's also a limited amount of money in the universe. I'd suggest setting a 
rational budget and time frame. This is all used gear. You *might* get a 
perfect one that never ever breaks. More likely you will need to get a couple 
and swap things around. I'd plan on buying 3 or 4 with what ever the budget is. 
If you get lucky, you come in under budget. 

Less fancy:

5334 - couple of ns resolution, nice and small, B is *very* different than the 
A so get one or the other
5335 - faster bigger heavier, one ns resolution. 

both should be around $100 before shipping. 

Very cool:

53131 500 ps resolution
53132 150 ps resolution

both have displays that can wear out. They are no longer supported by HP so you 
*might* find somebody dumping them. Hard to find for less than $800.

Big and heavy:

5371, 5372 same resolution as the 53132

They don't show up much. I've seen them for $200. You probably should expect to 
pay $400. Expect shipping to be non-trivial. 

High end:

SR620
5370
53230a

All are in the 20 ps range. You do see 5370's for $200. More commonly you see 
them for quite a bit more. The 620's show up anywhere between $800 and $3000. 
The 53230a is brand new with a warranty from Agilent for about $3700. 

That's just one set of parts. There are others. There are more issues than just 
price to consider. The 5371 is a *big* piece of gear. The 53xxx boxes are all 
small enough to carry around. 

Lots of choices.

Bob

On Jan 8, 2013, at 9:50 PM, dlewis6767  wrote:

> Hi Magnus, good day.
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed.  I think 
> I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a reasonably 
> priced unit pops up.
> 
> If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know.
> 
> -Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> From: "Magnus Danielson" 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
> 
>> Hi Don,
>> 
>> On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote:
>>> I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with 
>>> greater resolution.
>>> 
>>> In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and 
>>> just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period.
>>> 
>>> The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 
>>> 1 period).
>>> 
>>> I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is the 
>>> best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)?
>>> 
>>> Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the 
>>> better unit?  (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) 
>>> All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. Not 
>>> sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts.
>> 
>> Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot resolution 
>> compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording high rate 
>> events.
>> 
>> I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also have 
>> counters of better performance than these.
>> 
>> Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns 
>> resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>> 
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Mark Spencer]

Re the price for HP5370's.   I've purchased several HP5370B's over the last few 
years.One of the better ones cost me a little over $200.00 plus shipping.  
Some sellers still seem to have more reasonable expectations than others but 
good deals are getting harder to come by.   

If you have not already done so you might also want to review the list archives 
vis a vis the calibrating a HP5370 series counter. 

Good luck and best regards.

Mark Spencer


> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:39:20 -0600
> From: Ed Palmer 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>     
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation
> Message-ID: <50ecf478.6020...@sasktel.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> In the past there has been much discussion on this list
> regarding the 
> relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps
> resolution) and the 
> 5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units.  There are other
> units that have 
> even better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or
> more specialized.
> 
> Moving down another step in resolution, the Racal-Dana 1991
> and 1992 (1 
> ns resolution) counters also have their fans (like me), but
> they do have 
> problems with their front panel buttons (actually the
> switches under the 
> buttons).
> 
> Yes, the prices on ebay are becoming increasingly
> ridiculous. 
> Occasionally a seller will have an attack of sanity and post
> a 
> reasonable price.  You may also get lucky with a unit
> that is defective, 
> or advertised as such, but has either no fault or a
> repairable one.
> 
> More info on all of these topics is available by using
> Google with the 
> site:www.febo.com advanced search term.
> 
> Ed
> 
> On 1/8/2013 7:32 PM, dlewis6767 wrote:
> > I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/
> timer to one with greater resolution.
> >
> > In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing
> modules (receivers) and just want to start measuring their
> 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period.
> >
> > The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second
> pulse (.1us period at 1 period).
> >
> > I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/
> timers.  What is the best resolution they can provide
> for a one second pulse (over one period)?
> >
> > Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the
> three models is the better unit?  (Their display
> technology, age and cost not withstanding.)  All three
> models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems,
> too.   Not sure why, ...just supply and
> demand; I presume.
> >
> > Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts.
> >
> > Don Lewis
> > Austin, TX (Hyde Park)
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> ___
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> 
> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 102, Issue 33
> **
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

Wasn't this the exact application the PicTic was developed for "So one
would not have to tie up an expensive counter for something like comparing
two standards."   It would in fact be perfect.  You'd need to build several
of them one for every two GPSes


> In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and
>>> just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period.
>>>
>>> The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period
>>> at 1 period).
>>>
>>> I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is the
>>> best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)?
>>
>> --

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Ed Palmer]

In the past there has been much discussion on this list regarding the 
relative strengths and weaknesses of the 5370 (20ps resolution) and the 
5371/5372 (150ps resolution) units.  There are other units that have 
even better resolution, but they tend to be pricey and/or more specialized.


Moving down another step in resolution, the Racal-Dana 1991 and 1992 (1 
ns resolution) counters also have their fans (like me), but they do have 
problems with their front panel buttons (actually the switches under the 
buttons).


Yes, the prices on ebay are becoming increasingly ridiculous. 
Occasionally a seller will have an attack of sanity and post a 
reasonable price.  You may also get lucky with a unit that is defective, 
or advertised as such, but has either no fault or a repairable one.


More info on all of these topics is available by using Google with the 
site:www.febo.com advanced search term.


Ed

On 1/8/2013 7:32 PM, dlewis6767 wrote:

I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater 
resolution.

In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just 
want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period.

The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 
period).

I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is the best 
resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)?

Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the 
better unit?  (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.)  All 
three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too.   Not sure 
why, ...just supply and demand; I presume.

Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts.

Don Lewis
Austin, TX (Hyde Park)




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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[dlewis6767]

Hi Magnus, good day.

Thanks for the thoughts, ...that was pretty much where I was headed.  I 
think I will hold out a while for a 5370, watch eBay, see if a 
reasonably priced unit pops up.


If anyone has one for sale for a nice price, please let me know.

-Don






--
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 7:42 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation


Hi Don,

On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote:
I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with 
greater resolution.


In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and 
just want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period.


The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period 
at 1 period).


I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is the 
best resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one 
period)?


Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the 
better unit?  (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.) 
All three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too. 
Not sure why, ...just supply and demand; I presume.


Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts.


Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot resolution 
compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording high rate 
events.


I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also have 
counters of better performance than these.


Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns 
resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Don,

On 01/09/2013 02:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote:

I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater 
resolution.

In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just 
want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period.

The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 
period).

I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is the best 
resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)?

Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the 
better unit?  (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.)  All 
three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too.   Not sure 
why, ...just supply and demand; I presume.

Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts.


Of the given set, the HP5370 will have much better single shot 
resolution compared to the HP5371/5372. The later is better at recording 
high rate events.


I have both HP5370 and HP5372 as they fill different purposes. I also 
have counters of better performance than these.


Trouble is, with PPS signals you experience jitter such that a 1 ns 
resolution of a HP5335 will suffice for most usages.


Cheers,
Magnus

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[time-nuts] Interval Timer Recommendation

[dlewis6767]

I am looking to upgrade my older HP 5245L counter/ timer to one with greater 
resolution.  

In my home lab, I have been collecting GPS timing modules (receivers) and just 
want to start measuring their 1PPS jitter, etc. over one period.

The 5245L will only measure to 100ns with a 1 second pulse (.1us period at 1 
period).

I was looking at the HP5370/ 71/ 72 series counter/ timers.  What is the best 
resolution they can provide for a one second pulse (over one period)?  

Do you have any recommendation as to which one of the three models is the 
better unit?  (Their display technology, age and cost not withstanding.)  All 
three models seem greatly overstated in price on eBay, seems, too.   Not sure 
why, ...just supply and demand; I presume.

Thank you for your advice; I appreciate your thoughts.

Don Lewis
Austin, TX (Hyde Park)
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