Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-03-31 Thread Adrian Godwin
Replied off-list but suggestions welcome. On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 6:00 PM Mod Mix wrote: > Hi Adrian, > sorry for cantacting you directly... > I've got a pair of KS-24361 showing now the red FAULT led on just after > applying power. > As I don't know much about these electronics: could you pls

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-03-31 Thread Mod Mix
Hi Adrian, sorry for cantacting you directly... I've got a pair of KS-24361 showing now the red FAULT led on just after applying power. As I don't know much about these electronics: could you pls give me an indication where to find a possibly failed tant? Thank you in advance Ulli Am

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-25 Thread Bob kb8tq
Hi Well …. ummm …. errr …. it turns out that there *are* (or were) papers published on the topic that are “well known” in the … e …. space community and pop right out of the stack of papers that the guys from …. errr …. a well known space outfit in California bring with them …. The issue

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-25 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message <1f48decf-dee6-220f-f7ce-948642724...@rubidium.se>, Magnus Danielson writes: >The trouble with aluminium electrolytics is [...] Thanks for proving the exact point I made in my email yesterday. Now please go read it, because it contains some important details :-) --

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-25 Thread Magnus Danielson
Hi, On 2019-02-25 07:48, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message , Dana Whitlow writes: This would seem to imply that purposely overrating a 'lyt is pretty pointless. Any comments on this notion? I've always wondered that myself, and found very little documentation or wisdom

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-25 Thread jimlux
On 2/25/19 5:48 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi Indeed there is both a minimum and a maximum working voltage for a properly derated electrolytic capacitor. We found that out in the middle of a design review when the customer’s team brought it up … (much to our surprise). Bob The Cornell Dubilier

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-25 Thread Bob kb8tq
Hi Indeed there is both a minimum and a maximum working voltage for a properly derated electrolytic capacitor. We found that out in the middle of a design review when the customer’s team brought it up … (much to our surprise). Bob > On Feb 25, 2019, at 1:48 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-25 Thread Alex Pummer
I do not know, if the brake down voltage decreases if the electrolyte capacitor is used well bellow the original rated voltage, but I know from experience, that if you cautiously and slowly increase the voltage across the capacitor it will work at higher than the rated voltage, but with

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message , Dana Whitlow writes: >This would seem to imply that purposely overrating a 'lyt is pretty pointless. > >Any comments on this notion? I've always wondered that myself, and found very little documentation or wisdom available. As I understand it, even very brief voltage

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Dana Whitlow
I remember often reading that if you run a 'lyt at a voltage much reduced from its rating, the oxide layer would get thinner over time so that in the end, the effective rating of the capacitor was about what you had been running it at. This would seem to imply that purposely overrating a 'lyt is

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Gerhard Hoffmann
Am 24.02.19 um 14:39 schrieb Richard (Rick) Karlquist: yet they got a pass and became SOP.  The R lab manager at Santa Clara Division famously said "no customer chooses HP products because they have great power supplies." G..  My HP16500C has a defective PS and my 4274A RLC bridge

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread paul swed
Adrian I had the same thing in the same unit. I guess the electrolytic's were bad in allowing hum through. The tants go Bang and burn. Though all caps can go bang I suspect. Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 5:04 PM Adrian Godwin wrote: > Just to sneak that back on-topic .. the most recent

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message , Adrian Godwin writes: >I think I've had as many shorted-out tants as dried-out electrolytics. I doubt Len worried about dry-out, he was worried about shorts. A lot of people failed, and still fail, to realize that tube-voltage electrolytics are an entirely different

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Adrian Godwin
Just to sneak that back on-topic .. the most recent tant failure I had was in a KS-24361. It was after the dc-dc converter so it didn't look like a short to the input - it just increased the current draw. Running off a cheap laptop supply, which overheated and melted instead of shutting down or

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Adrian Godwin
I think I've had as many shorted-out tants as dried-out electrolytics. It's just that they appear in 80s gear instead of 60s. Then there was the flood of high-esr electrolytics from when - early 2000s ? On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 1:10 PM Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems) < hugh.r...@hp.com> wrote:

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
On 2/24/2019 4:02 AM, Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems) wrote: Several people have asked about the Len Cutler ban on Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors in HP Frequency Standards. Rick Karlquist could shed more light on this too. The legend of the ban was passed along to me, perhaps by Lou

Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: An architectural view of the HP 5060/5061 and awkward oscillator adjustments.

2019-02-24 Thread Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems)
Several people have asked about the Len Cutler ban on Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors in HP Frequency Standards. Rick Karlquist could shed more light on this too. The legend of the ban was passed along to me, perhaps by Lou Mueller, who liked to tell stories of the old days. In 1985, we