Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Scott Stobbe]

I would be careful to get an all analog tcxo. The digi-trim ones while may
have a decent total error band over temperature  can hop up and down in 100
ppb steps when the temperature straddles two points on its temp comp table.

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 7:06 PM Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Dan Kemppainen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > If one prototypes any crystal oscillator, and runs it on a bench. Then
> builds an 'oven' of sorts and runs it on the same bench. Would you expect
> to see any improvement?
>
> Sure, the XO likely moves 50 to 100 ppm over -30 to +70. You will cut that
> down to a couple of ppm. It’s much easier these
> days to just buy (or salvage) a cheap TCXO to get the same level of
> stability.
>
> One very basic issue: If I just grab a random crystal, it likely is a cut
> that does *not* have a useful turn temperature at all. For
> a proper OCXO you need a crystal with a turn temperature in the practical
> range for your oven. There are many other
> issues.
>
> The key point (just as in the previous message) is that you must have good
> frequency vs temperature data to know if
> you are improving things or not. That involves having a real temperature
> test chamber than can be slewed in a controlled
> fashion and repeatably set to a sequence of temperatures. A typical run
> starts at room, steps down to cold (or up to hot).
> It then steps to the other end and finally steps back to room. Data is
> taken every 10C or so and analyzed to be sure that
> things are not all messed up. One obvious problem / issue would be drift
> during the run. A typical run takes several hours to
> most of a day.
>
> Bob
>
> >
> > In other words for a given oscillator (crystal and electronics, etc),
> will there be any improvements in an oven compared to not in an oven? Or,
> are there other things that outweigh the gains by temp controlling the
> whole thing.
> >
> > Yeah, this is a pretty open question, but I don't really have a feel for
> how good an oscillator needs to be before an oven starts to improve
> things...
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/15/2017 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency
> like
> >> that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a
> proper
> >> design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design
> for 5.00
> >> MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical
> evidence that
> >> this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that
> this is the way things
> >> work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s
> also a business decision)
> >>
> >> More or less the crystal needs to be:
> >>
> >> 1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense
> for your application.
> >> 2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
> >> 3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance
> weld)
> >> 4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
> >> 5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum
> (unless it’s at VHF).
> >> 6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range (
> normally = minimize)
> >> 7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut.
> >>
> >> This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a
> while, but that should
> >> give you a pretty good idea.
> >>
> >> Bob
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Ok, I missed that. 

Unless there is also a trimmer cap, the EFC will be >> 0.01Hz if it needs to be 
on frequency for any rational amount of time. If the crystals are the typical 
old fundamentals, 
they may age 5 to 10 ppm / year when heated to OCXO temperatures. That’s +/- 25 
to +/-
50 Hz just for the first year. 

Bob

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:11 PM, Bruce Griffiths  
> wrote:
> 
> Bob
> 
> He stated 0.01Hz EFC tuning range was adequate.
> Gave no spec as to how close to nominal frequency is required though.
> 
> Bruce
>> On 16 March 2017 at 10:53 Bob Camp  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> By most modern definitions, “high stability” starts around 1x10^-12 (1 ppt)  
>> at a tau of 1 second to 
>> 10 seconds. There are $20 eBay OCXO’s that run at that level.  With a 
>> fundamental crystal you 
>> aren’t going to get to that point. 
>> 
>> How much EFC range are you after? 
>> 
>> How good a CNC setup do you have?
>> 
>> What kind of temperature test setup do you have? 
>> 
>> Simply put, the design approach is a “test over temperature / collect data 
>> -> optimize” loop. 
>> Without good frequency vs temperature data, you are flying totally blind. 
>> Even on a production
>> design, this is how it’s done. The parts you fiddle are likely to be odd 
>> shaped chunks of metal 
>> that fit here or there. 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Gilles Clement  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, 
>>> I have a bunch of 5.184Mhz crystals. Large metallic tanks: HC33U case
>>> Maybe not OCXO grade, but I build a simple oscillator with a 4060 chip
>>> placed in a double oven, and reached 10E-9 short term stability up to 10sec 
>>> tau.
>>> Not bad, so wondering if I can get better with a more advanced design. 
>>> Gilles. 
>>> 
>>> 
 Le 15 mars 2017 à 12:45, Bob Camp  a écrit :
 
 Hi
 
 Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency 
 like 
 that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a 
 proper 
 design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
 5.00
 MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical 
 evidence that
 this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this 
 is the way things
 work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also 
 a business decision) 
 
 More or less the crystal needs to be:
 
 1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense for 
 your application.
 2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
 3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance weld)
 4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
 5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum 
 (unless it’s at VHF).
 6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range ( 
 normally = minimize)
 7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut. 
 
 This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a 
 while, but that should 
 give you a pretty good idea. 
 
 Bob
 
> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Gilles Clement  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi, 
> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? 
> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ 
> Thx, 
> Gilles. 
> 
> 
>> Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
>>  a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of 
>>> some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. 
>>> Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz 
>>> crystal and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  
>>> divide the 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave 
>>> output is required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an 
>>> LC filter.
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 
>> 
>> I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general 
>> oscillator design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
>> mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
>> suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
>> 
>> The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
>> package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
>> used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
>> all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
>> 
>> This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
>> ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
>> overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike 

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bruce Griffiths]

Bob

He stated 0.01Hz EFC tuning range was adequate.
Gave no spec as to how close to nominal frequency is required though.

Bruce
> On 16 March 2017 at 10:53 Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> By most modern definitions, “high stability” starts around 1x10^-12 (1 ppt)  
> at a tau of 1 second to 
> 10 seconds. There are $20 eBay OCXO’s that run at that level.  With a 
> fundamental crystal you 
> aren’t going to get to that point. 
> 
> How much EFC range are you after? 
> 
> How good a CNC setup do you have?
> 
> What kind of temperature test setup do you have? 
> 
> Simply put, the design approach is a “test over temperature / collect data -> 
> optimize” loop. 
> Without good frequency vs temperature data, you are flying totally blind. 
> Even on a production
> design, this is how it’s done. The parts you fiddle are likely to be odd 
> shaped chunks of metal 
> that fit here or there. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> > On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Gilles Clement  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hi, 
> > I have a bunch of 5.184Mhz crystals. Large metallic tanks: HC33U case
> > Maybe not OCXO grade, but I build a simple oscillator with a 4060 chip
> > placed in a double oven, and reached 10E-9 short term stability up to 10sec 
> > tau.
> > Not bad, so wondering if I can get better with a more advanced design. 
> > Gilles. 
> > 
> > 
> >> Le 15 mars 2017 à 12:45, Bob Camp  a écrit :
> >> 
> >> Hi
> >> 
> >> Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency 
> >> like 
> >> that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a 
> >> proper 
> >> design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
> >> 5.00
> >> MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical 
> >> evidence that
> >> this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this 
> >> is the way things
> >> work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also 
> >> a business decision) 
> >> 
> >> More or less the crystal needs to be:
> >> 
> >> 1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense for 
> >> your application.
> >> 2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
> >> 3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance weld)
> >> 4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
> >> 5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum 
> >> (unless it’s at VHF).
> >> 6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range ( 
> >> normally = minimize)
> >> 7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut. 
> >> 
> >> This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a 
> >> while, but that should 
> >> give you a pretty good idea. 
> >> 
> >> Bob
> >> 
> >>> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Gilles Clement  
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Hi, 
> >>> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? 
> >>> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ 
> >>> Thx, 
> >>> Gilles. 
> >>> 
> >>> 
>  Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
>   a écrit :
>  
>  
>  
>  On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>  
> > 
> > Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of 
> > some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. 
> > Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz 
> > crystal and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  
> > divide the 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave 
> > output is required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an 
> > LC filter.
> > 
> > Bruce
> > 
>  
>  I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general 
>  oscillator design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
>  mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
>  suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
>  
>  The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
>  package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
>  used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
>  all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
>  
>  This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
>  ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
>  overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
>  designs that were in use at Zeta.
>  
>  Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
>  to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
>  crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
>  of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
>  all the crystals started working again.
>  
>  Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
> 

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Dan Kemppainen  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> If one prototypes any crystal oscillator, and runs it on a bench. Then builds 
> an 'oven' of sorts and runs it on the same bench. Would you expect to see any 
> improvement?

Sure, the XO likely moves 50 to 100 ppm over -30 to +70. You will cut that down 
to a couple of ppm. It’s much easier these 
days to just buy (or salvage) a cheap TCXO to get the same level of stability. 

One very basic issue: If I just grab a random crystal, it likely is a cut that 
does *not* have a useful turn temperature at all. For
a proper OCXO you need a crystal with a turn temperature in the practical range 
for your oven. There are many other 
issues. 

The key point (just as in the previous message) is that you must have good 
frequency vs temperature data to know if 
you are improving things or not. That involves having a real temperature test 
chamber than can be slewed in a controlled 
fashion and repeatably set to a sequence of temperatures. A typical run starts 
at room, steps down to cold (or up to hot). 
It then steps to the other end and finally steps back to room. Data is taken 
every 10C or so and analyzed to be sure that 
things are not all messed up. One obvious problem / issue would be drift during 
the run. A typical run takes several hours to
most of a day. 

Bob

> 
> In other words for a given oscillator (crystal and electronics, etc), will 
> there be any improvements in an oven compared to not in an oven? Or, are 
> there other things that outweigh the gains by temp controlling the whole 
> thing.
> 
> Yeah, this is a pretty open question, but I don't really have a feel for how 
> good an oscillator needs to be before an oven starts to improve things...
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/15/2017 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like
>> that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a 
>> proper
>> design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
>> 5.00
>> MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical evidence 
>> that
>> this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this is 
>> the way things
>> work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also a 
>> business decision)
>> 
>> More or less the crystal needs to be:
>> 
>> 1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense for 
>> your application.
>> 2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
>> 3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance weld)
>> 4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
>> 5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum (unless 
>> it’s at VHF).
>> 6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range ( 
>> normally = minimize)
>> 7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut.
>> 
>> This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a while, 
>> but that should
>> give you a pretty good idea.
>> 
>> Bob
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

By most modern definitions, “high stability” starts around 1x10^-12 (1 ppt)  at 
a tau of 1 second to 
10 seconds. There are $20 eBay OCXO’s that run at that level.  With a 
fundamental crystal you 
aren’t going to get to that point. 

How much EFC range are you after? 

How good a CNC setup do you have?

What kind of temperature test setup do you have? 

Simply put, the design approach is a “test over temperature / collect data -> 
optimize” loop. 
Without good frequency vs temperature data, you are flying totally blind. Even 
on a production
design, this is how it’s done. The parts you fiddle are likely to be odd shaped 
chunks of metal 
that fit here or there. 

Bob

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Gilles Clement  wrote:
> 
> Hi, 
> I have a bunch of 5.184Mhz crystals. Large metallic tanks: HC33U case
> Maybe not OCXO grade, but I build a simple oscillator with a 4060 chip
> placed in a double oven, and reached 10E-9 short term stability up to 10sec 
> tau.
> Not bad, so wondering if I can get better with a more advanced design. 
> Gilles. 
> 
> 
>> Le 15 mars 2017 à 12:45, Bob Camp  a écrit :
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like 
>> that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a 
>> proper 
>> design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
>> 5.00
>> MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical evidence 
>> that
>> this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this is 
>> the way things
>> work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also a 
>> business decision) 
>> 
>> More or less the crystal needs to be:
>> 
>> 1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense for 
>> your application.
>> 2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
>> 3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance weld)
>> 4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
>> 5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum (unless 
>> it’s at VHF).
>> 6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range ( 
>> normally = minimize)
>> 7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut. 
>> 
>> This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a while, 
>> but that should 
>> give you a pretty good idea. 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Gilles Clement  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, 
>>> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? 
>>> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ 
>>> Thx, 
>>> Gilles. 
>>> 
>>> 
 Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  
 a écrit :
 
 
 
 On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
 
> 
> Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of 
> some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. 
> Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz 
> crystal and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  
> divide the 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave 
> output is required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an LC 
> filter.
> 
> Bruce
> 
 
 I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general 
 oscillator design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
 mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
 suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
 
 The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
 package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
 used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
 all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
 
 This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
 ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
 overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
 designs that were in use at Zeta.
 
 Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
 to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
 crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
 of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
 all the crystals started working again.
 
 Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
 your right going south on 237 just before passing over
 Central Expressway in Mountain View.
 
 Rick N6RK
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- 

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bruce Griffiths]

Most likely AT cut fundamental (although there are other possibilities.) 
designed for operation around room temperature.

Do you have the manufacturer's specs for these?

What is the change in frequency between room temperature and oven temperature?

What is the operating temperature of the inner oven?

Bruce

> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 08:36 Gilles Clement  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I have a bunch of 5.184Mhz crystals. Large metallic tanks: HC33U case
> Maybe not OCXO grade, but I build a simple oscillator with a 4060 chip
> placed in a double oven, and reached 10E-9 short term stability up to 
> 10sec tau.
> Not bad, so wondering if I can get better with a more advanced design.
> Gilles.
> 
> > > 
> > Le 15 mars 2017 à 12:45, Bob Camp  a écrit :
> > 
> > Hi
> > 
> > Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd 
> > frequency like
> > that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. 
> > Doing a proper
> > design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a 
> > design for 5.00
> > MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical 
> > evidence that
> > this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed 
> > that this is the way things
> > work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, 
> > it’s also a business decision)
> > 
> > More or less the crystal needs to be:
> > 
> > 1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes 
> > sense for your application.
> > 2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
> > 3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are 
> > resistance weld)
> > 4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
> > 5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or 
> > aluminum (unless it’s at VHF).
> > 6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range 
> > ( normally = minimize)
> > 7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut.
> > 
> > This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for 
> > a while, but that should
> > give you a pretty good idea.
> > 
> > Bob
> > 
> > > > > 
> > > On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Gilles Clement 
> > >  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi,
> > > So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO 
> > > ?
> > > I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 
> > > 5184kHZ
> > > Thx,
> > > Gilles.
> > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
> > > >  a écrit :
> > > > 
> > > > On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A 
> > > > > will give some idea of some of the additional complexity required for 
> > > > > a overtone operation. Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. 
> > > > > Some start with a 10MHz crystal and a Colpitts sustaining stage and 
> > > > > use a 74HC74 or similar to divide the 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output 
> > > > > pin. Even when a sinewave output is required often a CMOS inverter 
> > > > > drives the output pin via an LC filter.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Bruce
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > I don't agree here. The 10811 is not a good tutorial 
> > > > for general oscillator design. Because it is SC cut, it has a 
> > > > complicated
> > > > mode suppression network across the base emitter 
> > > > junction to
> > > > suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
> > > > 
> > > > The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low 
> > > > profile
> > > > package). You can read my paper about it and see that I
> > > > used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit. That 
> > > > is
> > > > all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
> > > > 
> > > > This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 
> > > > years
> > > > ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
> > > > overtone. It simply worked every time, unlike various 
> > > > other
> > > > designs that were in use at Zeta.
> > > > 
> > > > Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial 
> > > > Communications
> > > > to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO. Only about half of 
> > > > the
> > > > crystals would work in their circuit. They had thousands
> > > > of "reject" crystals. I just used my old Zeta circuit 
> > > > and
> > > > 

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Dan Kemppainen]

Hi Bob,

If one prototypes any crystal oscillator, and runs it on a bench. Then 
builds an 'oven' of sorts and runs it on the same bench. Would you 
expect to see any improvement?


In other words for a given oscillator (crystal and electronics, etc), 
will there be any improvements in an oven compared to not in an oven? 
Or, are there other things that outweigh the gains by temp controlling 
the whole thing.


Yeah, this is a pretty open question, but I don't really have a feel for 
how good an oscillator needs to be before an oven starts to improve 
things...


Dan




On 3/15/2017 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Hi

Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like
that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper
design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
5.00
MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical evidence 
that
this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this is 
the way things
work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also a 
business decision)

More or less the crystal needs to be:

1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense for your 
application.
2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance weld)
4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum (unless 
it’s at VHF).
6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range ( normally = 
minimize)
7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut.

This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a while, but 
that should
give you a pretty good idea.

Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Gilles Clement]

Hi, 
I have a bunch of 5.184Mhz crystals. Large metallic tanks: HC33U case
Maybe not OCXO grade, but I build a simple oscillator with a 4060 chip
placed in a double oven, and reached 10E-9 short term stability up to 10sec tau.
Not bad, so wondering if I can get better with a more advanced design. 
Gilles. 
 

> Le 15 mars 2017 à 12:45, Bob Camp  a écrit :
> 
> Hi
> 
> Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like 
> that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a 
> proper 
> design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
> 5.00
> MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical evidence 
> that
> this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this is 
> the way things
> work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also a 
> business decision) 
> 
> More or less the crystal needs to be:
> 
> 1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense for your 
> application.
> 2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
> 3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance weld)
> 4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
> 5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum (unless 
> it’s at VHF).
> 6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range ( normally 
> = minimize)
> 7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut. 
> 
> This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a while, 
> but that should 
> give you a pretty good idea. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Gilles Clement  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, 
>> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? 
>> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ 
>> Thx, 
>> Gilles. 
>> 
>> 
>>> Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  a 
>>> écrit :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>>> 
 
 Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of 
 some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. 
 Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz 
 crystal and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  
 divide the 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave 
 output is required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an LC 
 filter.
 
 Bruce
 
>>> 
>>> I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general 
>>> oscillator design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
>>> mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
>>> suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
>>> 
>>> The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
>>> package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
>>> used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
>>> all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
>>> 
>>> This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
>>> ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
>>> overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
>>> designs that were in use at Zeta.
>>> 
>>> Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
>>> to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
>>> crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
>>> of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
>>> all the crystals started working again.
>>> 
>>> Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
>>> your right going south on 237 just before passing over
>>> Central Expressway in Mountain View.
>>> 
>>> Rick N6RK
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Magnus Danielson]

On 03/15/2017 05:30 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 3/15/2017 4:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency
like
that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing
a proper
design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design
for 5.00
MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical
evidence that
this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that
this is the way things
work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s
also a business decision)



Some 30 years ago when GPS was in its infancy, the hardware utilized
OCXO's at 10.23 MHz.  Somehow, HP got suckered into trying to make
modified 10811's that ran at that frequency vs 10 MHz.  Jack Kusters
tried to explain to anyone who would listen that this was a major
redesign of the crystal, because he would have to deal with a new
set of anharmonic spurious modes.  Although only a 2.3% frequency
change, everything is different.  In terms of business decisions,
only something with as much "juice" as GPS could have gotten Jack
to make a custom frequency.  As it turned out, a few dozen crystals
were made, and that was the end of it.  I managed to snag them
before they were thrown out, in case they might be useful for
something.

The original poster wanted not only an odd frequency (which I don't
recommend for the reasons above) but also wanted to varactor tune
the oscillator.  I also don't recommend doing that because of the
difficulty of generating a clean enough DC voltage.  Against my
advice, the HP smart clocks were tuned with DAC's driving varactors.
They never really got that to work up to their expectations.
Synthesis is so advanced now, 20 years later, that there is
no reason IMHO to voltage tune an OXCO.


Agree. Synthesis chips is cheap now and should be sufficiently good.

Also, it may not be a good strategy to zero-beat to the carrier, so such 
a frequency may actually be a bad choice. Modern DDS chips allows the 
tuning of the LO1 such that different IF frequencies can be tried.


For instance, the RTL-SDR is typically operated in 0 Hz beat, such that 
the front-end mixes down to 0 Hz for the carrier and lets the RTL chip 
sample the signal. This causes a distinct "blimp" from the 1/f noise.
Shifting the IF from 0 Hz and then let the RTL downconvert after 
sampling removes this blimp since the 1/f noise can be brought out of 
spectrum. When I dug around, this was available as an option even in GNU 
Radio if you only knew it.


This just to illustrate that best result is not always achieved by 
bringing it straight on carrier. Sure, it makes the design very very 
simple, but has its drawbacks.


Now, the 164 kHz carrier, as sampled by a 48 kHz clock produces a 20 kHz 
beat frequency as it wrapps down in the undersampling. To digitally 
convert it to DC or lock straight to 20 kHz digitally is fairly trivial.


Similarly, a typical GPS receiver often has the digitized signal offset.

With a more modern view on receiver design and considering the synthesis 
tools available, you can play around quite easily and move things around 
in interesting ways. For instance, consider that you have an IF filter, 
you can with some care sweep the filter and "tune" the LOs to the IF 
frequency working best for your needs. We do that in ham receivers to 
shift filtering to where it helps from nearby strong signals.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/15/2017 4:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like
that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper
design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
5.00
MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical evidence 
that
this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this is 
the way things
work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also a 
business decision)



Some 30 years ago when GPS was in its infancy, the hardware utilized
OCXO's at 10.23 MHz.  Somehow, HP got suckered into trying to make
modified 10811's that ran at that frequency vs 10 MHz.  Jack Kusters
tried to explain to anyone who would listen that this was a major
redesign of the crystal, because he would have to deal with a new
set of anharmonic spurious modes.  Although only a 2.3% frequency 
change, everything is different.  In terms of business decisions,

only something with as much "juice" as GPS could have gotten Jack
to make a custom frequency.  As it turned out, a few dozen crystals
were made, and that was the end of it.  I managed to snag them
before they were thrown out, in case they might be useful for
something.

The original poster wanted not only an odd frequency (which I don't
recommend for the reasons above) but also wanted to varactor tune
the oscillator.  I also don't recommend doing that because of the
difficulty of generating a clean enough DC voltage.  Against my
advice, the HP smart clocks were tuned with DAC's driving varactors.
They never really got that to work up to their expectations.
Synthesis is so advanced now, 20 years later, that there is
no reason IMHO to voltage tune an OXCO.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Mike Cook]

> Le 15 mars 2017 à 08:11, Gilles Clement  a écrit :
> 
> Hi, 
> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? 
> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ 

Crystals have existed for this frequency. A quick scan of the bay threw up item 
252813375636 which is an old radio crystal. If you can figure what you need to 
drive it, it could be installed into a home-brew oven. How stable you can get 
it would be the subject of a nice project.


> Thx, 
> Gilles. 
> 
> 
>> Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of 
>>> some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. 
>>> Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal 
>>> and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  divide the 
>>> 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave output is 
>>> required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an LC filter.
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 
>> 
>> I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general oscillator 
>> design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
>> mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
>> suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
>> 
>> The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
>> package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
>> used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
>> all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
>> 
>> This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
>> ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
>> overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
>> designs that were in use at Zeta.
>> 
>> Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
>> to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
>> crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
>> of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
>> all the crystals started working again.
>> 
>> Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
>> your right going south on 237 just before passing over
>> Central Expressway in Mountain View.
>> 
>> Rick N6RK
>> 
>> 
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> 
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like 
that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper 
design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 
5.00
MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I have empirical evidence 
that
this isn’t the case. Many years later, I’m still utterly amazed that this is 
the way things
work in the crystal business ….( = it’s not just a design issue, it’s also a 
business decision) 

More or less the crystal needs to be:

1) Cut specifically to have a turn at a temperature that makes sense for your 
application.
2) A “large blank” design (for it’s frequency)
3) In a cold weld package (most of the normal crystals are resistance weld)
4) Run through a high vacuum / high temperature process
5) Be plated with gold rather than something like silver or aluminum (unless 
it’s at VHF).
6) Have a motional capacitance that makes sense for your EFC range ( normally = 
minimize)
7) Preferably be an SC or modified SC cut. 

This is for a high stability part. The list does keep going on for a while, but 
that should 
give you a pretty good idea. 

Bob

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:11 AM, Gilles Clement  wrote:
> 
> Hi, 
> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? 
> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ 
> Thx, 
> Gilles. 
> 
> 
>> Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of 
>>> some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. 
>>> Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal 
>>> and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  divide the 
>>> 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave output is 
>>> required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an LC filter.
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 
>> 
>> I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general oscillator 
>> design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
>> mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
>> suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
>> 
>> The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
>> package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
>> used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
>> all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
>> 
>> This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
>> ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
>> overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
>> designs that were in use at Zeta.
>> 
>> Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
>> to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
>> crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
>> of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
>> all the crystals started working again.
>> 
>> Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
>> your right going south on 237 just before passing over
>> Central Expressway in Mountain View.
>> 
>> Rick N6RK
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Gilles Clement]

Hi, 
So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? 
I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ 
Thx, 
Gilles. 


> Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  a 
> écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of some 
>> of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. Dissecting a 
>> few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal and a 
>> Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  divide the 10Mhz 
>> by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave output is required often 
>> a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an LC filter.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
> 
> I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general oscillator 
> design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
> mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
> suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
> 
> The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
> package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
> used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
> all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
> 
> This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
> ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
> overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
> designs that were in use at Zeta.
> 
> Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
> to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
> crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
> of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
> all the crystals started working again.
> 
> Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
> your right going south on 237 just before passing over
> Central Expressway in Mountain View.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bruce Griffiths]

Gilles

What is the required tuning range for the OCVXO?

Bruce

> 
> On 15 March 2017 at 20:11 Gilles Clement  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ?
> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ
> Thx,
> Gilles.
> 
> > > 
> > Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
> >  a écrit :
> > 
> > On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> > 
> > > > > 
> > > Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give 
> > > some idea of some of the additional complexity required for a overtone 
> > > operation. Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 
> > > 10MHz crystal and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar 
> > > to divide the 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave 
> > > output is required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an LC 
> > > filter.
> > > 
> > > Bruce
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > I don't agree here. The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general 
> > oscillator design. Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
> > mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
> > suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
> > 
> > The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
> > package). You can read my paper about it and see that I
> > used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit. That is
> > all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
> > 
> > This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
> > ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
> > overtone. It simply worked every time, unlike various other
> > designs that were in use at Zeta.
> > 
> > Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
> > to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO. Only about half of the
> > crystals would work in their circuit. They had thousands
> > of "reject" crystals. I just used my old Zeta circuit and
> > all the crystals started working again.
> > 
> > Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
> > your right going south on 237 just before passing over
> > Central Expressway in Mountain View.
> > 
> > Rick N6RK
> > 
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> > > 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Van Horn, David]

In my design I need 10ppM, and then I divide by 8.  Software can't correct for 
anything.

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Bownes
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:50 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

not to mention +/- a few hundred ppm is not a big deal.

You can always correct for it in software. ;)


On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:49 AM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a 
>> simple
>>> crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board 
>>> space or engineering time.
>>>
>>
>> Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a 
>> complete XO is enormous. You will see at least a 10:1 cost savings on 
>> the crystal and likely more than that.  Simply attaching a crystal to 
>> the internal oscillator inside a chip is nearly zero engineering 
>> cost.  If your product is cost sensitive and not super tight 
>> tolerance … you go with the crystal.
>>
>>
> And that crystal business (gazillions of inexpensive 16 MHz crystals) 
> is very different from making an approximately 12 MHz crystal used in 
> a VCXO that will be FMed and multiplied up by 36 to make a 430 MHz 
> transmitter, oh, and that matches whatever temperature compensation 
> scheme GE used in 1970.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/14/17 3:49 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:


There is a number of more or less odd-ball frequences that occur. For
instance, 25 MHz isn't used as much as 125 MHz these days for Ethernet,
as it matches the needs of GE. 148,5 MHz is another, in that range there
is a number of numbers that fit various gigabit-pipes divided by numbers
like 10, 16, 20, 32, 64, 66 and such. SAW oscillators is another
approach used there.



I would suggest we look to our Babylonian forebears and choose 360 as 
the mother of all frequencies. Just because we have ten fingers and ten 
toes is no reason to be slaves to frequencies like 10 or 100 MHz.  Cast 
off the shackles deriving from Roman counting.




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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bruce Griffiths]

Rick

Yes, the 10811A is a good example of the sort of kludge that is required when 
one tries to adapt the Colpitts XO to work with an overtone crystal.
However, apart from that, the design is still a lot better than those in most 
of the ham publications (eg. clamp diodes on JFET gates to limit the amplitude 
etc).

The E1938A bridged T oscillator along with some of Driscoll's many XO circuits 
are simpler and more effective.  

Bruce

> On 15 March 2017 at 06:02 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> 
> >
> > Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of 
> > some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. 
> > Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal 
> > and a Colpitts sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  divide the 
> > 10Mhz by 2 and drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave output is 
> > required often a CMOS inverter drives the output pin via an LC filter.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> 
> I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general 
> oscillator design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated
> mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
> suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.
> 
> The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
> package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
> used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
> all you need to select the right overtone and mode.
> 
> This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
> ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
> overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
> designs that were in use at Zeta.
> 
> Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
> to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
> crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
> of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
> all the crystals started working again.
> 
> Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
> your right going south on 237 just before passing over
> Central Expressway in Mountain View.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/14/17 3:17 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:



So well yes, you learn the hard way what those 4-leggers do when you
have a bit of requirements. Later I dug up the patent for the process,
which was focused more on the production of one standard product and
late setting the frequency for customer needs. For it's purpose a great
concept, not for all cases thought.



actually, we use a lot of them in breadboards where you want to get 
"cycle accurate" timing from FPGA logic at oddball clock rates when 
developing software.


Historically, deep space radios have had a crystal that is related to 
the assigned deep space channel number.  This would be referred to as 
the f0 (f-naught) frequency and is around 9-10 MHz.


So if your assigned channel was 14, and your S-band downlink is at 
2295.00, you'd have a VCXO crystal cut for f0=9.5625 MHz (240xf0). 
Your uplink frequency would be 2113.3125 or 221*f0.  The receiver LO 
would be 220*f0, the IF at f0, and you'd set your VCXO PLL to lock to 
the received IF.  If you work all the multipliers and such carefully, 
all the drifts and noises mostly cancel out.


If you had a different channel assignment, you'd have a different crystal.

Same for X-band, except the ratio is 880/749

It took 2-3 years to get the crystal, but you're applying for your 
frequency allocation years before anyway.   These days, the oscillator 
runs at 4*f0 or 8*f0.


In any case, when we started using digital tracking loops, you'd run the 
ADC and DAC at the same f0, and the FPGA at that same f0 (or some 
multiple, like 76.5 MHz).


Similarly, for near earth comm, they use PN spreading codes at around 3 
MHz where the chip rate is a integer fraction of the carrier frequency 
(just like GPS), and it's convenient to have the DACs running at an 
exact multiple of the chip rate, so you have an even number of samples/chip.


The GPS folks like a frequency that's something like 48.xxx MHz, because 
sampling at that rate makes all the signals alias down to somewhere 
convenient even at max negative Doppler.


Then you have a microprocessor that might be running at some other 
convenient speed (like 66 MHz).  Since it takes years go get your 
crystal (and what if you want to re-use the breadboard for another 
mission on a different channel) it's handy to have a plug in oscillator 
at the "right" frequency- yeah, it's got a lot of jitter, but at least 
you can do things like test the logic behavior for all possible values 
of register settings and stuff like that, which would be impractical 
with the simulator which runs very, very slowly compared to real time.


The other reason we might run at something like 45 MHz is that it allows 
us to use a converter rated at 50 MHz without having to explain why 
we're running right at the rated speed with no design margin.


Woe to the poor guy or gal, though who starts to run bit error rate 
tests on the RF generated from these convenient devices.


BTW, there are two spacecraft at Mars with the same channel number.. 
because one of them used the spare radio from the previous mission - if 
you have dual redundancy, and a project with a nice budget, you buy 
three radios.  Then, when you've launched, that spare can be adopted by 
a subsequent mission, so you might wind up with a spacecraft with prime 
and redundant on different channels (a pain in test and operationally), 
and yet another channel in the testbed.


Our newer designs use DDS synthesis, so we're going to standard clock 
frequencies like 50 or 80 or 100 MHz.


For missions doing radio science that carry a USO, all this same stuff 
about getting the frequency right also counts (most of our radios have 
an "ext ref" input for this purpose). ANd for the same "what if the 
channel changes" reason, Applied Physics Lab (who make USOs) has a uso 
design with a DDS in it.


Both we and APL (and I imagine anyone else in this limited business 
area, like Thales) have spent some time working on DDS designs with 
"good" spur behavior, but overall, having a radio that tunes the entire 
band is a good thing.


Today, I'd build a radio with a reference oscillator at a "nice 
frequency" (probably 100 MHz), multiply that up for a block converter, 
then digitize the entire band (or maybe a chunk) (X-band is only 50 MHz 
wide, Ka-band is 500 MHz wide) and do the carrier recovery and tracking 
entirely in digital.







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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Magnus Danielson]

Attila,

On 03/14/2017 08:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100
Magnus Danielson  wrote:


Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good
market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature
enough compared to crystals.


MEMS is quite mature, it's just that it is playing a different game.
While with quartz (and other piezoelectric crystals) we know how
to design a crystal to frequency, things aren't so simple for MEMS.
Simply scaling the design doesn't work apparently.

What they instead do is to use the MEMS oscillator as a reference
for a PLL locked VCO. As the whole thing is going to be a few mm^2
of silicon anyways, reserving some µm^2 for the PLL and VCO don't
cost much. And it gives the ability to "tune" the oscillator
for the frequency needed after production (the same technique is used
with "programmable" crystal oscillators). Of course, having a PLL,
mostly a fractional-N PLL, causes a lot of spurs in the output,
which can cause problems, depending on the application.


Actually, as I described in a post before, all this actually started 
with crystal oscillators and was motivated by much simplified production 
as a fixed crystal frequency could be manufactured and then 
resynthesized to any of a large set of frequencies much later. When MEMS 
came along, the whole pipe was already cleaned and "a minor 
implementation detail" could be changed.



The big promise of MEMS oscillators was, that they'd be cheaper (due to
integration in silicon) and used less power. As far as I am aware,
neither promise could be upheld. MEMS need a quite different production
process than normal digital electronics, hence it's usually more economic
to have the oscillator on a different die than the digital chip. As for
power consumption, the low power MEMS are about at the same level as the
low power 32kHz crystal oscillators (and also in the same frequency).
One place where MEMS are exceedingly good is temperature characteristics.
Silabs demonstrated an oscillator, which, prior to any compensation,
exhibited only <5ppm shift over the full temperature range.


For many purposes, I see MEMS as a nice complementary technology.
The market cut and splices up a bit differently between them than it 
used to be, but not very drastic.



As for the demise of single quartz crystal units, I think that is not
going to happen any soon. It is rather that the economics shift. Most
of the single crystals are used as reference oscillators for digital
and analog/RF chips. Ie most these chips have an internal oscillator
that uses an external crystal to drive their internall VCO+PLL.
As the crystal frequency is dictated by the frequencies these chips
have to generate, there is a kind of standardization going on due to
the limited number of protocols that need special frequencies. Two very
common frequencies are 12MHz, for USB, and 25MHz, for Ethernet.
16MHz is base for CAN, some Wifi chipsets and USB as well. Then there
are a couple of frequencies that are related to GSM, UMTS and the various
other telephone standards. There are maybe a handfull of these frequencies,
which "everyone" needs (ie are used in many high volume products). These are
the crystals we will be able around for the forseeable future. There are
other frequencies that are less used, which you will still get, but need
to pay more or are made to order. Frequencies for protocols that are
not used much anymore, or can be easily generated from another frequency
that is more common, are bound to die out (as has happend with all those
UART crystals, which are only used in legacy systems or for historical reasons).


In general, the miniatyrization of synthesis is a much greater change to 
the scenery than MEMS. There is plenty of chips out there that allows 
you to synthesize several frequencies. A re-occurring structure is a 
high-frequency CMOS oscillator, possibly multi-phase, which is locked to 
a reference (say 20 MHz or 26 MHz) and then output dividers provide 
variants. Fractional synthesis is also in there for more uneven 
frequency shifts. FPGAs also comes which multiple DLLs and lately PLLs 
on chip that does essentially the same thing, but maybe not as elaborate 
as the dedicated chips. DDS chips is another branch. In general, these 
types of chips have become much much better in terms of jitter, 
frequency range, control etc.


In this context, MEMS does much less to affect the market. The whole 
synthesiz part have made huge difference for a whole range of products 
already.



For specialized applications, where the crystal is not directly interfaced
to a chip that provides the oscillator, it is more convenient for the
designer to just use a complete oscillator than to design his own oscillator
with all the problems that it involves. Getting such a device reliable to
work in production volumes is nothing an average engineer without prior
experience in can just pull 

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

Oh yes. I remember a certain design from a certain vendor. It was an 
crystal oscillator, sort of. Available in many diverse frequencies 
(hint). It was really a crystal oscillator and a PLL that could be 
programmed relatively inexpensively. Solves many problems, so it's a 
fine product, but it is a no-go for gigabit serial links, such as 
fibre-channel, gigabit ethernet and the like, as the PLL caused some 
serious systematics. This systematics along with the noise was scaled up 
as the step-up PLL just did a wide-band step-up (as it should). The 
combination causes excessive bit-errors rendering the link quite 
unusefull. With the tools at my hand, a sub-sampling scope with some 
cool histogram capabilities I used a resistive divider and a coax delay 
so that I could measure the trigger point and also the 1 cycle jitter, 
which is essentially what dominates for this kind of setup. I could see 
the systematic jitter clearly this way, and I could also get numbers for 
the random jitter. The vendors rep said "you can't measure that!" where 
I insisted I could. We ended up using other products for that purpose. I 
ended up measuring many oscillators to approve their jitter properties.


So well yes, you learn the hard way what those 4-leggers do when you 
have a bit of requirements. Later I dug up the patent for the process, 
which was focused more on the production of one standard product and 
late setting the frequency for customer needs. For it's purpose a great 
concept, not for all cases thought.


I know of MEMS issues. One MEMS I measured was tossed into a lock-loop, 
but the noise of it made the scope-view completely smeared out, despite 
being locked on average. I only showed the scope, pointiing out it was 
locked and that was the end of that discussion.


There is nothing wrong with these devices for many purposes, but expect 
that it may not solve everything, so measure and learn what 
characteristics is important for that particular application.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/14/2017 04:02 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Some (but not all) of the resonant structures in the MEMS parts are effectively 
multi
resonator / multi peak structures. Because of this the phase noise has multiple 
major
bumps in it as you get into the region of all the peaks. Thats not going to 
give you
great close in phase noise or ADEV. Since the manufacturers are often a bit 
unclear
on “what’s inside” you need be a bit careful as you sort through the different 
parts out
there. Even after sorting, you still run the risk of an “improved” design 
suddenly
replacing the one you decided on.

So much fun !!!

Bob


On Mar 14, 2017, at 8:39 AM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
wrote:

Hi,

Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good market 
share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature enough 
compared to crystals.

Another aspect is that various forms of synthesis technologies now exists, so 
that a high frequency CMOS oscillator is locked and divided down. Works 
sufficiently well for a whole bunch of applications.

Again, your milage may vary and there is applications where you need the real 
deal or the right stuff.

Cheers,
Magnus


On 03/14/2017 01:06 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:19 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four
terminals not two.  It looks like a crystal because it is inside a
little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output"
and the fourth lead might not be used.  It is an "XO" not an "X".

But I argue that every one of these device has a crystal inside.  So
they still make crystals, just you don't see them


These days, they may well have a MEMS resonator in them. No quartz and
no crystal. Good luck on the close in noise if that’s what they are doing ….

Bob



On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:

sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
crystals?


-=Bryan=-



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
<rich...@karlquist.com>
Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
crystals.

Rick N6RK

On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
replacing
broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since 
the last of the
non-synthesized radios came out. The business p

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/14/17 12:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100
Magnus Danielson  wrote:


Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good
market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature
enough compared to crystals.






The big promise of MEMS oscillators was, that they'd be cheaper (due to
integration in silicon) and used less power. As far as I am aware,
neither promise could be upheld.


Well, the SiLabs parts are quite attractive for places where they are 
appropriate. They're cost competitive in small quantities with the 
"XO+PLL" modules, and physically much smaller.




As for the demise of single quartz crystal units, I think that is not
going to happen any soon.


sources>


I think the "individual crystal" market will remain, but it will be 
expensive.  I fully expect that folks like  Bliley  and Croven (part of 
Wenzel since 2006) will be around for a long long time.


What probably won't last much longer is companies like ICM that you 
could send your "frequency control module" to and have them "recrystal" 
it for a new frequency.


The low budget folks (ham radio) will go to little synthesizer board 
retrofits of some sort or another - which they've already started doing, 
since really nice 10 MHz GPSDOs became available, rather than using that 
special oscillator at around 90 MHz (I can't remember the magic 
frequency) that you could double and triple up to microwave frequencies 
step by step while using your trusty 28 or 144 MHz transceiver as a back 
end.


And some day, all those 1970s and 1980s FM repeaters still on the air 40 
years later having been repurposed from land mobile radio service will 
be replaced by something else.  My friends with a garage full of old 
Moto and GE gear that they've been saving just in case will have to 
dispose of it.





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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Jim Harman]

For other common crystal frequencies, let's not forget
3.579545 MHz and 4x that - NTSC TV color burst

and others listed here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator_frequencies



On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100
> Magnus Danielson  wrote:
>
> > Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good
> > market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature
> > enough compared to crystals.
>
> MEMS is quite mature, it's just that it is playing a different game.
> While with quartz (and other piezoelectric crystals) we know how
> to design a crystal to frequency, things aren't so simple for MEMS.
> Simply scaling the design doesn't work apparently.
>
> What they instead do is to use the MEMS oscillator as a reference
> for a PLL locked VCO. As the whole thing is going to be a few mm^2
> of silicon anyways, reserving some µm^2 for the PLL and VCO don't
> cost much. And it gives the ability to "tune" the oscillator
> for the frequency needed after production (the same technique is used
> with "programmable" crystal oscillators). Of course, having a PLL,
> mostly a fractional-N PLL, causes a lot of spurs in the output,
> which can cause problems, depending on the application.
>
> The big promise of MEMS oscillators was, that they'd be cheaper (due to
> integration in silicon) and used less power. As far as I am aware,
> neither promise could be upheld. MEMS need a quite different production
> process than normal digital electronics, hence it's usually more economic
> to have the oscillator on a different die than the digital chip. As for
> power consumption, the low power MEMS are about at the same level as the
> low power 32kHz crystal oscillators (and also in the same frequency).
> One place where MEMS are exceedingly good is temperature characteristics.
> Silabs demonstrated an oscillator, which, prior to any compensation,
> exhibited only <5ppm shift over the full temperature range.
>
>
> As for the demise of single quartz crystal units, I think that is not
> going to happen any soon. It is rather that the economics shift. Most
> of the single crystals are used as reference oscillators for digital
> and analog/RF chips. Ie most these chips have an internal oscillator
> that uses an external crystal to drive their internall VCO+PLL.
> As the crystal frequency is dictated by the frequencies these chips
> have to generate, there is a kind of standardization going on due to
> the limited number of protocols that need special frequencies. Two very
> common frequencies are 12MHz, for USB, and 25MHz, for Ethernet.
> 16MHz is base for CAN, some Wifi chipsets and USB as well. Then there
> are a couple of frequencies that are related to GSM, UMTS and the various
> other telephone standards. There are maybe a handfull of these frequencies,
> which "everyone" needs (ie are used in many high volume products). These
> are
> the crystals we will be able around for the forseeable future. There are
> other frequencies that are less used, which you will still get, but need
> to pay more or are made to order. Frequencies for protocols that are
> not used much anymore, or can be easily generated from another frequency
> that is more common, are bound to die out (as has happend with all those
> UART crystals, which are only used in legacy systems or for historical
> reasons).
>
>
> For specialized applications, where the crystal is not directly interfaced
> to a chip that provides the oscillator, it is more convenient for the
> designer to just use a complete oscillator than to design his own
> oscillator
> with all the problems that it involves. Getting such a device reliable to
> work in production volumes is nothing an average engineer without prior
> experience in can just pull off. Heck, I design my stuff to use oscialltors
> instead of crystals, because that's one thing less I have to care about.
> But even with these oscillators, there is only a limited number of
> frequencies
> that are easy to get. Those are again the standard frequencies from above,
> and a couple of round numbers (like multiples of 10MHz)
>
>
> Attila Kinali
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 

--Jim Harman
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100
Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good 
> market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature 
> enough compared to crystals.

MEMS is quite mature, it's just that it is playing a different game.
While with quartz (and other piezoelectric crystals) we know how
to design a crystal to frequency, things aren't so simple for MEMS.
Simply scaling the design doesn't work apparently.

What they instead do is to use the MEMS oscillator as a reference
for a PLL locked VCO. As the whole thing is going to be a few mm^2
of silicon anyways, reserving some µm^2 for the PLL and VCO don't
cost much. And it gives the ability to "tune" the oscillator
for the frequency needed after production (the same technique is used
with "programmable" crystal oscillators). Of course, having a PLL,
mostly a fractional-N PLL, causes a lot of spurs in the output,
which can cause problems, depending on the application.

The big promise of MEMS oscillators was, that they'd be cheaper (due to
integration in silicon) and used less power. As far as I am aware,
neither promise could be upheld. MEMS need a quite different production
process than normal digital electronics, hence it's usually more economic
to have the oscillator on a different die than the digital chip. As for
power consumption, the low power MEMS are about at the same level as the
low power 32kHz crystal oscillators (and also in the same frequency).
One place where MEMS are exceedingly good is temperature characteristics.
Silabs demonstrated an oscillator, which, prior to any compensation,
exhibited only <5ppm shift over the full temperature range.


As for the demise of single quartz crystal units, I think that is not
going to happen any soon. It is rather that the economics shift. Most
of the single crystals are used as reference oscillators for digital
and analog/RF chips. Ie most these chips have an internal oscillator
that uses an external crystal to drive their internall VCO+PLL.
As the crystal frequency is dictated by the frequencies these chips
have to generate, there is a kind of standardization going on due to
the limited number of protocols that need special frequencies. Two very
common frequencies are 12MHz, for USB, and 25MHz, for Ethernet.
16MHz is base for CAN, some Wifi chipsets and USB as well. Then there
are a couple of frequencies that are related to GSM, UMTS and the various
other telephone standards. There are maybe a handfull of these frequencies,
which "everyone" needs (ie are used in many high volume products). These are
the crystals we will be able around for the forseeable future. There are
other frequencies that are less used, which you will still get, but need
to pay more or are made to order. Frequencies for protocols that are
not used much anymore, or can be easily generated from another frequency
that is more common, are bound to die out (as has happend with all those
UART crystals, which are only used in legacy systems or for historical reasons).


For specialized applications, where the crystal is not directly interfaced
to a chip that provides the oscillator, it is more convenient for the
designer to just use a complete oscillator than to design his own oscillator
with all the problems that it involves. Getting such a device reliable to
work in production volumes is nothing an average engineer without prior
experience in can just pull off. Heck, I design my stuff to use oscialltors
instead of crystals, because that's one thing less I have to care about.
But even with these oscillators, there is only a limited number of frequencies
that are easy to get. Those are again the standard frequencies from above,
and a couple of round numbers (like multiples of 10MHz)


Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Scott Stobbe]

Not only that. Good luck finding a datasheet with *any* analog
specifications for its internal oscillator. Here are the pins for an
external crystal. The microchip PICs are nice, they give you the goldilocks
selection for drive level a little cool, a little hot, maybe just right.

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Mar 14, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> >
> >
> > artgod...@gmail.com said:
> >> I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't
> need
> >> to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make
> >> something crude that will resonate.
> >
> > Are you doing this for fun or ???
> >
> > Feasible?  Sure.  Cheaper?  That depends.
> >
> > The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
> > crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
> > engineering time.
>
> Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a
> complete XO
> is enormous. You will see at least a 10:1 cost savings on the crystal and
> likely
> more than that.  Simply attaching a crystal to the internal oscillator
> inside a
> chip is nearly zero engineering cost.  If your product is cost sensitive
> and
> not super tight tolerance … you go with the crystal.
>
> Bob
>
> >
> > Is your background digital or analog?  Do you want a sine wave or a
> clock?
> >
> > My background is primarily digital.  If the chip you are using has 2 pins
> > setup to drive a crystal, you can probably get it to run reliably by
> > following the data sheet and/or app notes.  The usual recipe is 2 tiny
> caps
> > and a big resistor.  (big in resistance, not physically big)
> >
> > An advantage of using a crystal with the on-chip amplifier that I didn't
> > mention last time is that you save the osc power if you power down that
> > corner of the chip.
> >
> > If you want a sine wave, you are out of my comfort zone.  I'd probably
> look
> > in ham radio literature.
> >
> > They make logic chips like a 74HCU04, U for unbuffered.  One of their
> uses is
> > for making oscillators.  I've never done it.  Try google.
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:



Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of some of 
the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. Dissecting a few 
ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal and a Colpitts 
sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  divide the 10Mhz by 2 and 
drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave output is required often a CMOS 
inverter drives the output pin via an LC filter.

Bruce



I don't agree here.  The 10811 is not a good tutorial for general 
oscillator design.  Because it is SC cut, it has a complicated

mode suppression network across the base emitter junction to
suppress mode B as well as the fundamental.

The E1983A oscillator uses the same crystal (in a low profile
package).  You can read my paper about it and see that I
used a very simple bridged tee oscillator circuit.  That is
all you need to select the right overtone and mode.

This is the same circuit that I used at Zeta Labs 40 years
ago to design hundreds of custom VCXO's, up to the 9th
overtone.  It simply worked every time, unlike various other
designs that were in use at Zeta.

Around 1985, I got a consulting gig at Equatorial Communications
to redesign their 5th overtone VCXO.  Only about half of the
crystals would work in their circuit.  They had thousands
of "reject" crystals.  I just used my old Zeta circuit and
all the crystals started working again.

Equatorial owned the 10 meter dish that you used to see on
your right going south on 237 just before passing over
Central Expressway in Mountain View.

Rick N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Some (but not all) of the resonant structures in the MEMS parts are effectively 
multi 
resonator / multi peak structures. Because of this the phase noise has multiple 
major 
bumps in it as you get into the region of all the peaks. Thats not going to 
give you
great close in phase noise or ADEV. Since the manufacturers are often a bit 
unclear 
on “what’s inside” you need be a bit careful as you sort through the different 
parts out 
there. Even after sorting, you still run the risk of an “improved” design 
suddenly 
replacing the one you decided on. 

So much fun !!!

Bob 

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 8:39 AM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good market 
> share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature enough 
> compared to crystals.
> 
> Another aspect is that various forms of synthesis technologies now exists, so 
> that a high frequency CMOS oscillator is locked and divided down. Works 
> sufficiently well for a whole bunch of applications.
> 
> Again, your milage may vary and there is applications where you need the real 
> deal or the right stuff.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> 
> On 03/14/2017 01:06 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>>> On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:19 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.ch...@gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four
>>> terminals not two.  It looks like a crystal because it is inside a
>>> little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output"
>>> and the fourth lead might not be used.  It is an "XO" not an "X".
>>> 
>>> But I argue that every one of these device has a crystal inside.  So
>>> they still make crystals, just you don't see them
>> 
>> These days, they may well have a MEMS resonator in them. No quartz and
>> no crystal. Good luck on the close in noise if that’s what they are doing ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
>>>> crystals?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -=Bryan=-
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) 
>>>> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
>>>> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
>>>> 
>>>> I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
>>>> was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
>>>> ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
>>>> so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
>>>> crystals.
>>>> 
>>>> Rick N6RK
>>>> 
>>>> On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> 
>>>>> International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios 
>>>>> and replacing
>>>>> broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years 
>>>>> since the last of the
>>>>> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping 
>>>>> off pretty steadily
>>>>> for many years …
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>>>>>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of 
>>>>>>> credit,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started 
>>>>>> it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is 
>>>>>>> getting a huge boost in spending
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There's also a change in what kinds o

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Bownes]

not to mention +/- a few hundred ppm is not a big deal.

You can always correct for it in software. ;)


On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:49 AM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
>>> crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
>>> engineering time.
>>>
>>
>> Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a
>> complete XO
>> is enormous. You will see at least a 10:1 cost savings on the crystal and
>> likely
>> more than that.  Simply attaching a crystal to the internal oscillator
>> inside a
>> chip is nearly zero engineering cost.  If your product is cost sensitive
>> and
>> not super tight tolerance … you go with the crystal.
>>
>>
> And that crystal business (gazillions of inexpensive 16 MHz crystals) is
> very different from making an approximately 12 MHz crystal used in a VCXO
> that will be FMed and multiplied up by 36 to make a 430 MHz transmitter,
> oh, and that matches whatever temperature compensation scheme GE used in
> 1970.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 8:49 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>>> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
>>> crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
>>> engineering time.
>> 
>> Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a complete 
>> XO
>> is enormous. You will see at least a 10:1 cost savings on the crystal and 
>> likely
>> more than that.  Simply attaching a crystal to the internal oscillator 
>> inside a
>> chip is nearly zero engineering cost.  If your product is cost sensitive and
>> not super tight tolerance … you go with the crystal.
>> 
> 
> And that crystal business (gazillions of inexpensive 16 MHz crystals) is very 
> different from making an approximately 12 MHz crystal used in a VCXO that 
> will be FMed and multiplied up by 36 to make a 430 MHz transmitter, oh, and 
> that matches whatever temperature compensation scheme GE used in 1970.

Well, what GE did in 1970 was to test every single assembly over temperature 
(multiple times)  
and pick parts for that specific assembly to compensate it. There never was a 
magic single crystal 
design to match the compensation in a given unit ….

Bob

> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
engineering time.


Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a complete XO
is enormous. You will see at least a 10:1 cost savings on the crystal and likely
more than that.  Simply attaching a crystal to the internal oscillator inside a
chip is nearly zero engineering cost.  If your product is cost sensitive and
not super tight tolerance … you go with the crystal.



And that crystal business (gazillions of inexpensive 16 MHz crystals) is 
very different from making an approximately 12 MHz crystal used in a 
VCXO that will be FMed and multiplied up by 36 to make a 430 MHz 
transmitter, oh, and that matches whatever temperature compensation 
scheme GE used in 1970.



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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good 
market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature 
enough compared to crystals.


Another aspect is that various forms of synthesis technologies now 
exists, so that a high frequency CMOS oscillator is locked and divided 
down. Works sufficiently well for a whole bunch of applications.


Again, your milage may vary and there is applications where you need the 
real deal or the right stuff.


Cheers,
Magnus


On 03/14/2017 01:06 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:19 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four
terminals not two.  It looks like a crystal because it is inside a
little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output"
and the fourth lead might not be used.  It is an "XO" not an "X".

But I argue that every one of these device has a crystal inside.  So
they still make crystals, just you don't see them


These days, they may well have a MEMS resonator in them. No quartz and
no crystal. Good luck on the close in noise if that’s what they are doing ….

Bob



On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:

sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
crystals?


-=Bryan=-



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
<rich...@karlquist.com>
Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
crystals.

Rick N6RK

On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
replacing
broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since 
the last of the
non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off 
pretty steadily
for many years …

Bob


On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,


Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started it in 
1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.



Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a 
huge boost in spending


Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.

There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect most things being built and 
designed today use the crystal as a "master oscillator" that is used to drive some sort 
of synthesis chain. The need for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.





On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:

Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is 
interesting, classic.


http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/

[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>

So Long, and Thanks for all the 
Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
hackaday.com
There was a time when anyone involved with radio transmitting -- ham operators, 
CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or remote control model fans -- had a collection 
of ...







-=Bryan=-
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/14/17 12:19 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four
terminals not two.  It looks like a crystal because it is inside a
little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output"
and the fourth lead might not be used.  It is an "XO" not an "X".

But I argue that every one of these device has a crystal inside.  So
they still make crystals, just you don't see them


A lot of those have micromachined silicon as the resonator, though

http://www.silabs.com/products/timing/oscillators/xo-silicon







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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:19 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.ch...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four
> terminals not two.  It looks like a crystal because it is inside a
> little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output"
> and the fourth lead might not be used.  It is an "XO" not an "X".
> 
> But I argue that every one of these device has a crystal inside.  So
> they still make crystals, just you don't see them

These days, they may well have a MEMS resonator in them. No quartz and
no crystal. Good luck on the close in noise if that’s what they are doing ….

Bob

> 
> On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
>> sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
>> crystals?
>> 
>> 
>> -=Bryan=-
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) 
>> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
>> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
>> 
>> I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
>> was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
>> ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
>> so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
>> crystals.
>> 
>> Rick N6RK
>> 
>> On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
>>> replacing
>>> broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years 
>>> since the last of the
>>> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping 
>>> off pretty steadily
>>> for many years …
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>>>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of 
>>>>> credit,
>>>> 
>>>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started 
>>>> it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is 
>>>>> getting a huge boost in spending
>>>> 
>>>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.
>>>> 
>>>> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect 
>>>> most things being built and designed today use the crystal as a "master 
>>>> oscillator" that is used to drive some sort of synthesis chain. The need 
>>>> for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom 
>>>>>> is interesting, classic.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
>> [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
>> 
>> So Long, and Thanks for all the 
>> Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
>> hackaday.com
>> There was a time when anyone involved with radio transmitting -- ham 
>> operators, CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or remote control model fans -- had 
>> a collection of ...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -=Bryan=-
>>>>>> ___
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>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>> www.febo.com
>> time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time 
>&

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> artgod...@gmail.com said:
>> I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't need
>> to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make
>> something crude that will resonate.
> 
> Are you doing this for fun or ???
> 
> Feasible?  Sure.  Cheaper?  That depends.
> 
> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple 
> crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or 
> engineering time.

Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a complete XO
is enormous. You will see at least a 10:1 cost savings on the crystal and likely
more than that.  Simply attaching a crystal to the internal oscillator inside a 
chip is nearly zero engineering cost.  If your product is cost sensitive and 
not super tight tolerance … you go with the crystal. 

Bob

> 
> Is your background digital or analog?  Do you want a sine wave or a clock?
> 
> My background is primarily digital.  If the chip you are using has 2 pins 
> setup to drive a crystal, you can probably get it to run reliably by 
> following the data sheet and/or app notes.  The usual recipe is 2 tiny caps 
> and a big resistor.  (big in resistance, not physically big)
> 
> An advantage of using a crystal with the on-chip amplifier that I didn't 
> mention last time is that you save the osc power if you power down that 
> corner of the chip.
> 
> If you want a sine wave, you are out of my comfort zone.  I'd probably look 
> in ham radio literature.
> 
> They make logic chips like a 74HCU04, U for unbuffered.  One of their uses is 
> for making oscillators.  I've never done it.  Try google.
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bruce Griffiths]

For a sinewave oscillator

http://www.wenzel.com/wp-content/uploads/xtalosc.pdf

is a start for fundamental crystals.

However the npn transistor operates a little too close to saturation for my 
liking.

A small change to the biasing of the npn will fix this.

With overtone crystal operation mode suppression is necessary to ensure the 
crystal operates on the desired overtone.

Amateur literature on crystal oscillators and even LC oscillators includes 
quite a few relatively poor circuits.

Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of some of 
the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. Dissecting a few 
ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal and a Colpitts 
sustaining stage and use a 74HC74 or similar to  divide the 10Mhz by 2 and 
drive the output pin. Even when a sinewave output is required often a CMOS 
inverter drives the output pin via an LC filter.

Bruce

> 
> On 14 March 2017 at 21:44 Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> artgod...@gmail.com said:
> 
> > > 
> > I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it 
> > doesn't need
> > to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to 
> > make
> > something crude that will resonate.
> > 
> > > 
> Are you doing this for fun or ???
> 
> Feasible? Sure. Cheaper? That depends.
> 
> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
> crystal is tiny. The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
> engineering time.
> 
> Is your background digital or analog? Do you want a sine wave or a clock?
> 
> My background is primarily digital. If the chip you are using has 2 pins
> setup to drive a crystal, you can probably get it to run reliably by
> following the data sheet and/or app notes. The usual recipe is 2 tiny caps
> and a big resistor. (big in resistance, not physically big)
> 
> An advantage of using a crystal with the on-chip amplifier that I didn't
> mention last time is that you save the osc power if you power down that
> corner of the chip.
> 
> If you want a sine wave, you are out of my comfort zone. I'd probably look
> in ham radio literature.
> 
> They make logic chips like a 74HCU04, U for unbuffered. One of their uses 
> is
> for making oscillators. I've never done it. Try google.
> 
> --
> These are my opinions. I hate spam.
> 
> ___
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> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Adrian Godwin]

For interest, and as part of art project involving crystals. I want to show
a less third-age usage than is common in that space :).Acceleration effect
on frequency may also be featured. No way would I do it for cost or quality.

Like you, I normally use packaged oscillators for most things - though I do
still encounter plenty of the passive crystals on cheap microprocessor
boards. The oscillators may be $1, but I suspect those crystals are 10c.

My first encounters with crystals were probably with the inverter
oscillators of early micros. I gather there's a lot more black magic in
their design than analysis, and as a result they used to have problems
oscillating. The oscillators built into modern micros are a lot better.
I'll probably use a more carefully characterised amplifier if i cut my own
crystal.

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> artgod...@gmail.com said:
> > I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't
> need
> > to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make
> > something crude that will resonate.
>
> Are you doing this for fun or ???
>
> Feasible?  Sure.  Cheaper?  That depends.
>
> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
> crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
> engineering time.
>
> Is your background digital or analog?  Do you want a sine wave or a clock?
>
> My background is primarily digital.  If the chip you are using has 2 pins
> setup to drive a crystal, you can probably get it to run reliably by
> following the data sheet and/or app notes.  The usual recipe is 2 tiny caps
> and a big resistor.  (big in resistance, not physically big)
>
> An advantage of using a crystal with the on-chip amplifier that I didn't
> mention last time is that you save the osc power if you power down that
> corner of the chip.
>
> If you want a sine wave, you are out of my comfort zone.  I'd probably look
> in ham radio literature.
>
> They make logic chips like a 74HCU04, U for unbuffered.  One of their uses
> is
> for making oscillators.  I've never done it.  Try google.
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Chris Albertson]

I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four
terminals not two.  It looks like a crystal because it is inside a
little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output"
and the fourth lead might not be used.  It is an "XO" not an "X".

But I argue that every one of these device has a crystal inside.  So
they still make crystals, just you don't see them

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
> sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
> crystals?
>
>
> -=Bryan=-
>
>
> 
> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) 
> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
>
> I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
> was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
> ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
> so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
> crystals.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
> On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
>> replacing
>> broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years 
>> since the last of the
>> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off 
>> pretty steadily
>> for many years …
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of 
>>>> credit,
>>>
>>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started it 
>>> in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting 
>>>> a huge boost in spending
>>>
>>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.
>>>
>>> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect 
>>> most things being built and designed today use the crystal as a "master 
>>> oscillator" that is used to drive some sort of synthesis chain. The need 
>>> for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom 
>>>>> is interesting, classic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
> [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
>
> So Long, and Thanks for all the 
> Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
> hackaday.com
> There was a time when anyone involved with radio transmitting -- ham 
> operators, CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or remote control model fans -- had a 
> collection of ...
>
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -=Bryan=-
>>>>> ___
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
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> and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior 
> postings to ...
>
>
>
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> and frequency measurement and related topics. To se

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Hal Murray]

artgod...@gmail.com said:
> I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't need
> to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make
> something crude that will resonate.

Are you doing this for fun or ???

Feasible?  Sure.  Cheaper?  That depends.

The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple 
crystal is tiny.  The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or 
engineering time.

Is your background digital or analog?  Do you want a sine wave or a clock?

My background is primarily digital.  If the chip you are using has 2 pins 
setup to drive a crystal, you can probably get it to run reliably by 
following the data sheet and/or app notes.  The usual recipe is 2 tiny caps 
and a big resistor.  (big in resistance, not physically big)

An advantage of using a crystal with the on-chip amplifier that I didn't 
mention last time is that you save the osc power if you power down that 
corner of the chip.

If you want a sine wave, you are out of my comfort zone.  I'd probably look 
in ham radio literature.

They make logic chips like a 74HCU04, U for unbuffered.  One of their uses is 
for making oscillators.  I've never done it.  Try google.

-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[William H. Fite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b--FKHCFjOM

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> jim...@earthlink.net said:
> > what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino,
> for
> > instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside  the
> > Atmel part)
>
> I assume you can save a few pennies if you use a raw crystal rather than an
> oscillator.  That probably matters in high volume low cost applications.
>
> Atmel has the technology for making oscillators.  That's an analog-ish
> corner
> on what is mostly a digital chip.  A lot of their chips are low standby
> power
> which generally means an older digital process with thicker oxides that
> don't
> leak as much.  That probably makes analog corners easier, but I'm far from
> a
> wizard at that area.
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If your application is happy with 0.1% accuracy, you use a simple crystal that 
costs 
< 10 cents. If your application requires <0.001% accuracy, you probably are 
better 
off using a packaged oscillator. 

Bob

> On Mar 13, 2017, at 8:11 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> jim...@earthlink.net said:
>> what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino,  for
>> instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside  the
>> Atmel part) 
> 
> I assume you can save a few pennies if you use a raw crystal rather than an 
> oscillator.  That probably matters in high volume low cost applications.
> 
> Atmel has the technology for making oscillators.  That's an analog-ish corner 
> on what is mostly a digital chip.  A lot of their chips are low standby power 
> which generally means an older digital process with thicker oxides that don't 
> leak as much.  That probably makes analog corners easier, but I'm far from a 
> wizard at that area.
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you are not to picky, you can buy crystals in bulk for < 5 cents each. Why 
make
them from scratch? Best guess is that in small volume, they will cost you > $20 
each
to make. Labor cost something ….

Bob

> On Mar 13, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
> 
> I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't
> need to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to
> make something crude that will resonate.
> 
> On 14 Mar 2017 1:00 a.m., "Hal Murray"  wrote:
> 
> 
> jim...@earthlink.net said:
>> what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino,  for
>> instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside  the
>> Atmel part)
> 
> I assume you can save a few pennies if you use a raw crystal rather than an
> oscillator.  That probably matters in high volume low cost applications.
> 
> Atmel has the technology for making oscillators.  That's an analog-ish
> corner
> on what is mostly a digital chip.  A lot of their chips are low standby
> power
> which generally means an older digital process with thicker oxides that
> don't
> leak as much.  That probably makes analog corners easier, but I'm far from a
> wizard at that area.
> 
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

…. ummm …… errr ….. 10 MHz sweet spot is a fiction. 

Roughly speaking the Q of a crystal is inversely proportional to the frequency. 
Drop the frequency 2:1 and the Q doubles. That
assumes you don’t run into size constraints. If your package is a bit larger, 
the sweet spot is 2.5 MHz. If it’s a bit smaller the sweet
spot is 30 MHz. As package size has gotten smaller and smaller over the last 70 
years, the idea of the “ideal frequency” has gone
up. This of course leads to the interesting question of reversing package size 
history …. If anybody has a few million dollars to toss 
around, it’s an interesting thing to dig into. 

Bob

> On Mar 13, 2017, at 8:03 PM, Jeff AC0C <keepwalking...@ac0c.com> wrote:
> 
> Making a finished crystal, especially a high-Q one of a target frequency far 
> removed from the 8-10 Mhz sweet spot, is definitely one of those projects 
> that is a lot harder than you would think it is.  I was down at ICM a few 
> years back when we were building some high-Q 70 Mhz VHF crystals for a filter 
> project and it was amazing the amount of stuff they had there.
> 
> 73/jeff/ac0c
> www.ac0c.com
> alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
> 
> -Original Message- From: Bob Camp
> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:19 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
> 
> Hi
> 
> …. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
> 
> X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are 
> sawing
> Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
> Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped
> Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging 
> them
> Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
> Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
> Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition
> High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do 
> much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes
> Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
> Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
> Plate to frequency gear
> 
> That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The 
> cleaning gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Attila Kinali <att...@kinali.ch> wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +
>> Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
>> 
>> The equipment is quite minimal:
>> 
>> * A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
>> * Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
>> * a lapping/grinding machine
>> * an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
>> * either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
>> * vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
>> * something to (cold) weld the case close
>> 
>> 
>> All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
>> The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
>> in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
>> to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
>> at the frequency you want.
>> 
>> If you managed to do that, you can further improve
>> your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
>> the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
>> on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
>> time as holder.
>> But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
>> but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
>> managed to produce a economically viable product.
>> 
>> 
>> Attila Kinali
>> 
>> [1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
>> [2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2
>> 
>> -- 
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
>> use without that foundation.
>>-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Adrian Godwin]

I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't
need to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to
make something crude that will resonate.

On 14 Mar 2017 1:00 a.m., "Hal Murray"  wrote:


jim...@earthlink.net said:
> what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino,  for
> instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside  the
> Atmel part)

I assume you can save a few pennies if you use a raw crystal rather than an
oscillator.  That probably matters in high volume low cost applications.

Atmel has the technology for making oscillators.  That's an analog-ish
corner
on what is mostly a digital chip.  A lot of their chips are low standby
power
which generally means an older digital process with thicker oxides that
don't
leak as much.  That probably makes analog corners easier, but I'm far from a
wizard at that area.

--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Gary Woods]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +, you wrote:

>What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?

There was a WWII era "how they spend your war bonds" film that showed the
process pretty well.  Diamond saws to cut the raw quartz, X-ray diffraction
to find the proper axes prior to cutting out blanks, assorted
polishing/lapping stuff, etching with truly nasty stuff.  ISTR that if you
put a piece of foil under the plate glass you're grinding on, you can hear
a noise peak on a receiver at the approximate frequency.
I once raised a cheapo surplus crystal 60Kc plus to put it into the
40-meter CW band; worked fine!

IOW, not a trivial thing.

-- 
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

---
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Jeff AC0C]

Making a finished crystal, especially a high-Q one of a target frequency far 
removed from the 8-10 Mhz sweet spot, is definitely one of those projects 
that is a lot harder than you would think it is.  I was down at ICM a few 
years back when we were building some high-Q 70 Mhz VHF crystals for a 
filter project and it was amazing the amount of stuff they had there.


73/jeff/ac0c
www.ac0c.com
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie

-Original Message- 
From: Bob Camp

Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:19 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi

…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:

X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are 
sawing

Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are 
lapped
Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging 
them

Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition
High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do 
much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes

Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
Plate to frequency gear

That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The 
cleaning gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application.


Bob



On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Attila Kinali <att...@kinali.ch> wrote:

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +
Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:


What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?


The equipment is quite minimal:

* A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
* Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
* a lapping/grinding machine
* an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
* either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
* vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
* something to (cold) weld the case close


All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
at the frequency you want.

If you managed to do that, you can further improve
your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
time as holder.
But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
managed to produce a economically viable product.


Attila Kinali

[1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
[2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2

--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Hal Murray]

jim...@earthlink.net said:
> what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino,  for
> instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside  the
> Atmel part) 

I assume you can save a few pennies if you use a raw crystal rather than an 
oscillator.  That probably matters in high volume low cost applications.

Atmel has the technology for making oscillators.  That's an analog-ish corner 
on what is mostly a digital chip.  A lot of their chips are low standby power 
which generally means an older digital process with thicker oxides that don't 
leak as much.  That probably makes analog corners easier, but I'm far from a 
wizard at that area.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

> On Mar 13, 2017, at 7:12 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 3/13/17 3:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> …. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
>> 
>> X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are 
>> sawing
>> Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
>> Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are 
>> lapped
>> Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging 
>> them
>> Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
>> Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
>> Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition
>> High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do 
>> much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes
>> Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
>> Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
>> Plate to frequency gear
>> 
>> That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The 
>> cleaning gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Just get the Kurt J. Lesker catalog out and start ordering

… since a lot of it goes into a single “never break vacuum” enclosure, it gets 
complicated fast. Toss in the 
fact that you want a *good* vacuum and there’s a lot of stainless steel all 
over the place. 

Bob

> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/13/17 2:59 PM, Alan Melia wrote:

.and some micro-soldering kit to attach the plated unit to the lead
frame. Our factory used homemade hot air jets, I have no idea what the
solder was prob LMP.

Lapping a single blank is difficult, one tends to get rounded edges(even
with the best machine) which affect the activity. See the video, they
are lapping several at the same time. The unplated blanks are put into a
skelton holder and measured and the most promising one proceded with.
First an evaporated contact to fix the blank to the lead frame. Then
electrode evaporation which brings the frequency down, so the final
stage evaporates electrode while measuring the mounted crystal
frequency. Allowances need to be made for the can.

I doubt most small modern firms would have a X-ray goniometer (?) The
one I saw in the 60s would never pass H criteria now. They probably
buy cut blanks in bulk, I think they are relatively cheap this way. My
supplier in the 90s did this.
The whole job is quite labour intensive, making a single crystal might
easily eat $1000 worth of manhours for an amateur, not even allowing for
the occasional "oops".
:-))



But you would wind up with some nice "artisanally hand crafted" crystals 
to plug into a retro radio.

Definitely good for one-upsmanship at the local craft brewery.

I put this in the same sort of bucket as grinding your own telescope 
mirrors - maybe something to try once.


Not all crystals are plated, either. I recall pulling crystals out of 
holders and using toothpaste to raise their frequency, and a pencil to 
lower it. (I will not claim high quality or stability or anything good 
about it).




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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/13/17 3:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:

X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are 
sawing
Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped
Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging them
Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition
High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do 
much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes
Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
Plate to frequency gear

That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The cleaning 
gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application.




Just get the Kurt J. Lesker catalog out and start ordering


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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Jim Harman]

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Jim Harman  wrote:

> Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use ceramic
> resonators,


Sorry, the Leonardo does have a crystal. The original Uno had a resonator.


-- 

--Jim Harman
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Alexander Pummer]

actually the process  started as Statek started to etch the crystals
http://www.statek.com/corporateoverview.php in 1970, and produces high
quality crystal since than.

73
Alex
KJ6UHN


On 3/13/2017 11:05 AM, Richard Solomon wrote:

I don't think it's as much the manufacturing process as it is procuring the

raw material.


73, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>

From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Adrian Godwin 
<artgod...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.

What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?


On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:


Probably true for many things.   My current design has six crystals, and
exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
Power and space considerations mostly.

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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:

X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are 
sawing
Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped 
Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging them
Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition 
High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do 
much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes
Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
Plate to frequency gear 

That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The cleaning 
gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application. 

Bob


> On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +
> Adrian Godwin  wrote:
> 
>> What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
> 
> The equipment is quite minimal:
> 
> * A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
> * Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
> * a lapping/grinding machine
> * an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
> * either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
> * vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
> * something to (cold) weld the case close
> 
> 
> All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
> The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
> in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
> to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
> at the frequency you want.
> 
> If you managed to do that, you can further improve
> your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
> the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
> on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
> time as holder.
> But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
> but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
> managed to produce a economically viable product.
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> [1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
> [2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Jim Harman]

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:53 PM, jimlux  wrote:

> I think the Arduino, for instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator
> electronics are inside the Atmel part)


You're right. Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use
ceramic resonators, which make them truly awful for timekeeping
applications.


-- 

--Jim Harman
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Alan Melia]

.and some micro-soldering kit to attach the plated unit to the lead 
frame. Our factory used homemade hot air jets, I have no idea what the 
solder was prob LMP.


Lapping a single blank is difficult, one tends to get rounded edges(even 
with the best machine) which affect the activity. See the video, they are 
lapping several at the same time. The unplated blanks are put into a skelton 
holder and measured and the most promising one proceded with. First an 
evaporated contact to fix the blank to the lead frame. Then electrode 
evaporation which brings the frequency down, so the final stage evaporates 
electrode while measuring the mounted crystal frequency. Allowances need to 
be made for the can.


I doubt most small modern firms would have a X-ray goniometer (?) The one I 
saw in the 60s would never pass H criteria now. They probably buy cut 
blanks in bulk, I think they are relatively cheap this way. My supplier in 
the 90s did this.
The whole job is quite labour intensive, making a single crystal might 
easily eat $1000 worth of manhours for an amateur, not even allowing for the 
occasional "oops".

:-))
Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Attila Kinali" <att...@kinali.ch>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts@febo.com>

Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals



On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +
Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:


What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?


The equipment is quite minimal:

* A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
* Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
* a lapping/grinding machine
* an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
* either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
* vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
* something to (cold) weld the case close


All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
at the frequency you want.

If you managed to do that, you can further improve
your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
time as holder.
But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
managed to produce a economically viable product.


Attila Kinali

[1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
[2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2

--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/13/17 11:29 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:

With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut.

Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's:

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/after-class-Quartz-Crystals-january-1957-popular-electronics.htm

It was very common for hams to regrind crystals for other nearby
frequencies at home:
http://www.bliley.net/XTAL/docs/misc/XTAL_grinding/grinding.html






"Grinding your own crystals can be lots of fun, and you can have the 
freedom of a v.f.o. without the danger of a pink ticket."


why, it's as simple as spinning the knob on the VFO

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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Alex Pummer]

actually the process started as Statek started to etch the crystals  
http://www.statek.com/corporateoverview.php in 1970 and produces high 
quality crystal since than


73

KJ6UHN


On 3/13/2017 11:05 AM, Richard Solomon wrote:

I don't think it's as much the manufacturing process as it is procuring the

raw material.


73, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>

From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Adrian Godwin 
<artgod...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.

What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?


On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:


Probably true for many things.   My current design has six crystals, and
exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
Power and space considerations mostly.

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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/13/17 10:09 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the
electronics.  A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has to
supply his own electronics.  You rarely see the latter any more in
applications other  than oven oscillators.  The same thing happened in
SAW resonators.  About all you can buy now are SAW oscillators.



what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino, 
for instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside 
the Atmel part)


The Arduino Ethernet I have sitting in front of me has a fairly large 
can labeled T25.000 that looks an awful lot like a crystal, rather than 
an oscillator.

The published Arduino Uno schematic shows a crystal.


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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/13/17 8:01 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote:

The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.

What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?


Lapping compound and a hunk of glass/polished granite?
You can probably buy blanks that are approximately the right size and 
with the correct cut.

If not, you'll need the appropriate saw and jigs and a source of quartz

A supply of crystal holders, and the technology to seal them (welding 
these days, I would imagine)



the actual mechanics is probably less of a challenge than establishing 
the supply chains.


For a "one off", it would be pretty easy.




On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:



Probably true for many things.   My current design has six crystals, and
exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
Power and space considerations mostly.

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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Attila Kinali]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +
Adrian Godwin  wrote:

> What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?

The equipment is quite minimal:

* A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
* Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
* a lapping/grinding machine
* an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
* either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
* vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
* something to (cold) weld the case close


All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
at the frequency you want.

If you managed to do that, you can further improve
your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
time as holder.
But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
managed to produce a economically viable product.


Attila Kinali

[1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
[2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[David Armstrong]

I work for a company that builds electronics products, low volume,
highly complex units.  

It used to be that you bought a crystal and then made an oscillator
that would use that crystal.  Or you had a single chip micro that used
a crystal for the time base, in the early days you might have to fight
with that oscillator to make it work acceptably.

Now for under a dollar one can have an oscillator without the hassle.
If the oscillator is a (very) small part of the unit cost, one can
spend the engineering effort on more complex parts of the design.

You can chose the parameters you want to optimize cost, phase noise,
stability etc.



On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:09:39 -0700
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:

> A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the 
> electronics.  A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has
> to supply his own electronics.  You rarely see the latter any more in 
> applications other  than oven oscillators.  The same thing happened
> in SAW resonators.  About all you can buy now are SAW oscillators.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
> On 3/13/2017 12:07 AM, Bryan _ wrote:
> > sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered
> > loose crystals?
> >
> >
> > -=Bryan=-
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard
> > (Rick) Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38
> > PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
> >
> > I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
> > was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40
> > years ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years
> > ago or so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales
> > of loose crystals.
> >
> > Rick N6RK
> >
> > On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:  
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized
> >> radios and replacing broken crystals in various pieces of com
> >> gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since the last of the
> >> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been
> >> dropping off pretty steadily for many years …
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>  
> >>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:  
> >>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled
> >>>> line of credit,  
> >>>
> >>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad
> >>> started it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years
> >>> later. 
> >>>>
> >>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which
> >>>> is getting a huge boost in spending  
> >>>
> >>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.
> >>>
> >>> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I
> >>> suspect most things being built and designed today use the
> >>> crystal as a "master oscillator" that is used to drive some sort
> >>> of synthesis chain. The need for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz
> >>> crystal" is going away.
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>>  
> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at
> >>>>> the bottom is interesting, classic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/ 
> >>>>>  
> > [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
> >
> > So Long, and Thanks for all the
> > Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
> > hackaday.com There was a time when anyone involved with radio
> > transmitting -- ham operators, CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or
> > remote control model fans -- had a collection of ...
> >
> >
> >  
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -=Bryan=-
> >>>>> ___
> &

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Tim Shoppa]

With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut.

Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's:

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/after-class-Quartz-Crystals-january-1957-popular-electronics.htm

It was very common for hams to regrind crystals for other nearby
frequencies at home:
http://www.bliley.net/XTAL/docs/misc/XTAL_grinding/grinding.html

I have a large assortment of 50's/60's/early 70's FT-243 crystals and they
are uniformly crummy from a Q or frequency accuracy perspective. Sometimes
opening the holder and cleaning the electrodes and crystal helps a bit -
there's some attempt at sealing, like a rubber grommet, in some of the
FT-243 holders but mostly there's no attempt at sealing. It's possible the
rubber grommets just made things worse through outgassing.

Tim N3QE



On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

> The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
>
> What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
> david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Probably true for many things.   My current design has six crystals, and
> > exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
> > Power and space considerations mostly.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Richard Solomon]

I don't think it's as much the manufacturing process as it is procuring the

raw material.


73, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>

From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Adrian Godwin 
<artgod...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.

What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?


On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> Probably true for many things.   My current design has six crystals, and
> exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
> Power and space considerations mostly.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the 
electronics.  A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has to 
supply his own electronics.  You rarely see the latter any more in 
applications other  than oven oscillators.  The same thing happened in 
SAW resonators.  About all you can buy now are SAW oscillators.


Rick N6RK

On 3/13/2017 12:07 AM, Bryan _ wrote:

sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
crystals?


-=Bryan=-



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
<rich...@karlquist.com>
Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
crystals.

Rick N6RK

On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
replacing
broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since 
the last of the
non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off 
pretty steadily
for many years …

Bob


On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,


Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started it in 
1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.



Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a 
huge boost in spending


Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.

There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect most things being built and 
designed today use the crystal as a "master oscillator" that is used to drive some sort 
of synthesis chain. The need for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.





On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:

Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is 
interesting, classic.


http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/

[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>

So Long, and Thanks for all the 
Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
hackaday.com
There was a time when anyone involved with radio transmitting -- ham operators, 
CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or remote control model fans -- had a collection 
of ...







-=Bryan=-
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_

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Adrian Godwin]

The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.

What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?


On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> Probably true for many things.   My current design has six crystals, and
> exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
> Power and space considerations mostly.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Van Horn, David]

Probably true for many things.   My current design has six crystals, and 
exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module. 
Power and space considerations mostly. 

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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

There also was an intermediate phase between channel frequency -> crystal 
frequency -> you buy a crystal and synthesizers.
My early fun and games at Motorola involved designing TCXO’s and OCXO’s that 
had non-replicable crystals in them. We shipped
them as a fully sealed unit. The compensation on them was very specific to the 
crystal involved. The assembly was such that
replacing the crystal likely broke the part in some way. At the very least it 
required you to re-weld the case on the TCXO’s. 

So yes, in this context (as opposed to the market in general) radios based on 
complete oscillators dominated a *long* time ago. 

Bob


> On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:07 AM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
> 
> sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
> crystals?
> 
> 
> -=Bryan=-
> 
> 
> 
> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) 
> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
> 
> I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
> was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
> ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
> so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
> crystals.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
> On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
>> replacing
>> broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years 
>> since the last of the
>> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off 
>> pretty steadily
>> for many years …
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of 
>>>> credit,
>>> 
>>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started it 
>>> in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting 
>>>> a huge boost in spending
>>> 
>>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.
>>> 
>>> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect 
>>> most things being built and designed today use the crystal as a "master 
>>> oscillator" that is used to drive some sort of synthesis chain. The need 
>>> for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom 
>>>>> is interesting, classic.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
> [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
> 
> So Long, and Thanks for all the 
> Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
> hackaday.com
> There was a time when anyone involved with radio transmitting -- ham 
> operators, CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or remote control model fans -- had a 
> collection of ...
> 
> 
> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -=Bryan=-
>>>>> ___
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> www.febo.com
> time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time 
> and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior 
> postings to ...
> 
> 
> 
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
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> time-nut

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bryan _]

sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose 
crystals?


-=Bryan=-



From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) 
Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
crystals.

Rick N6RK

On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
> replacing
> broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years 
> since the last of the
> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off 
> pretty steadily
> for many years …
>
> Bob
>
>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of 
>>> credit,
>>
>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started it 
>> in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.
>>
>>>
>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting 
>>> a huge boost in spending
>>
>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.
>>
>> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect most 
>> things being built and designed today use the crystal as a "master 
>> oscillator" that is used to drive some sort of synthesis chain. The need for 
>> "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom 
>>>> is interesting, classic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>

So Long, and Thanks for all the 
Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/>
hackaday.com
There was a time when anyone involved with radio transmitting -- ham operators, 
CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or remote control model fans -- had a collection 
of ...



>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -=Bryan=-
>>>> ___
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> ___
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
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>>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios.  That's over 40 years
ago.  The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
crystals.

Rick N6RK

On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
replacing
broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since 
the last of the
non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off 
pretty steadily
for many years …

Bob


On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux  wrote:

On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,


Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started it in 
1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.



Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a 
huge boost in spending


Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.

There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect most things being built and 
designed today use the crystal as a "master oscillator" that is used to drive some sort 
of synthesis chain. The need for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.





On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _  wrote:

Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is 
interesting, classic.


http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/



-=Bryan=-
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Jim,

On 03/12/2017 10:39 PM, jimlux wrote:

On 3/12/17 5:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:


I don't like how higher Q is confused with higher frequency stability.
As most here should know, it is a bit of a mix-up of two different
stability aspects.



That is indeed a "time-nuts" vs "frequency-nuts" level distinction.


Well, Q does have it's influence on phase-noise and thus ADEV, but 
doesn't really say much about frequency in regard to temperature 
stability or drift.


Yeah, I'm a bit picky about details like that, and I think others should 
learn it right.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/12/17 5:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:


I don't like how higher Q is confused with higher frequency stability.
As most here should know, it is a bit of a mix-up of two different
stability aspects.



That is indeed a "time-nuts" vs "frequency-nuts" level distinction.


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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 03/11/2017 10:56 PM, Bryan _ wrote:

Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is 
interesting, classic.


http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/


At the bottom is a 1964 U.S. Air Force training film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUZFxMTEss0

Haven't seen that one before. Enjoy.

I could use that to toss at my amateur radio students that wants to 
learn more about crystals than I cover in my lecture for them.


I don't like how higher Q is confused with higher frequency stability.
As most here should know, it is a bit of a mix-up of two different 
stability aspects.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Bob Camp]

Hi

International’s main business  was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and 
replacing 
broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since 
the last of the 
non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off 
pretty steadily 
for many years …

Bob

> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,
> 
> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started it 
> in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.
> 
>> 
>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a 
>> huge boost in spending
> 
> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.
> 
> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect most 
> things being built and designed today use the crystal as a "master 
> oscillator" that is used to drive some sort of synthesis chain. The need for 
> "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.
> 
> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is 
>>> interesting, classic.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -=Bryan=-
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[jimlux]

On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,


Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on.  His dad started 
it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970.  It's 47 years later.




Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a 
huge boost in spending


Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around.

There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed.   I suspect 
most things being built and designed today use the crystal as a "master 
oscillator" that is used to drive some sort of synthesis chain. The need 
for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away.






On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _  wrote:

Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is 
interesting, classic.


http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/



-=Bryan=-
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Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

[Scott McGrath]

>From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,  
> 

Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a 
huge boost in spending 

> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _  wrote:
> 
> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is 
> interesting, classic.
> 
> 
> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
> 
> 
> 
> -=Bryan=-
> ___
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