Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
A non-sampling oscilloscope with limited bandwidth could just as easily miss a narrow pulse because of bandwidth constraints no matter how high its sampling rate. That is the point of the thread. Even a wide bandwidth analog scope used to show a 500nS pulse at a 200Hz repetition rate will have a hard time, while any DSO worth the name will have no problem with it. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: David davidwh...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:11:29 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:56:18 +, shali...@gmail.com wrote: That's why the default mode for a DSO should always be pulse detect or whatever the manufacturer calls it, unless you know what you are doing. As far as I know, all DSOs have this or an equivalent mode where the ADC runs at full speed regardless of sweep speed, and the min and max readings between two display points are stored. If you are in a condition that would otherwise result in aliasing, the trace will look like a big fat trace, just like on an analog scope if you are probing a 10MHz signal at 1mS/div. Do the low end Rigol oscilloscopes actually support peak detection? The manual only describes an envelope mode without any ability to set the number of envelopes like a Tektronix 2440 can for single shot peak detection. When I was in the market for a DSO a couple years ago, the Rigol representatives could not answer. I ended up rebuilding an old Tektronix 2230. You get the same issue with an analog sampling scope, except that those don't have a pulse detect mode, so they WILL lie to you unless you know what you are doing. It is not a digital storage issue, it is a sampling issue. Sampling oscilloscopes are in a class all to their own and very specialized. Their low sample rates hinder capturing infrequent events but if a repetitive glitch is there, they can still see it. A non-sampling oscilloscope with limited bandwidth could just as easily miss a narrow pulse because of bandwidth constraints no matter how high its sampling rate. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
I would agree that a DSO with a peak detect mode is the way to go for general purpose work. I just wish the cheap ones had delayed sweep and faster waveform acquisition rates instead of long record lengths. When I was diagnosing an offline switching power supply a few weeks ago that was stuck in pulse mode, digital storage mode on my Tektronix 2230 saved the day. On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:54:16 +, shali...@gmail.com wrote: A non-sampling oscilloscope with limited bandwidth could just as easily miss a narrow pulse because of bandwidth constraints no matter how high its sampling rate. That is the point of the thread. Even a wide bandwidth analog scope used to show a 500nS pulse at a 200Hz repetition rate will have a hard time, while any DSO worth the name will have no problem with it. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: David davidwh...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:11:29 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:56:18 +, shali...@gmail.com wrote: That's why the default mode for a DSO should always be pulse detect or whatever the manufacturer calls it, unless you know what you are doing. As far as I know, all DSOs have this or an equivalent mode where the ADC runs at full speed regardless of sweep speed, and the min and max readings between two display points are stored. If you are in a condition that would otherwise result in aliasing, the trace will look like a big fat trace, just like on an analog scope if you are probing a 10MHz signal at 1mS/div. Do the low end Rigol oscilloscopes actually support peak detection? The manual only describes an envelope mode without any ability to set the number of envelopes like a Tektronix 2440 can for single shot peak detection. When I was in the market for a DSO a couple years ago, the Rigol representatives could not answer. I ended up rebuilding an old Tektronix 2230. You get the same issue with an analog sampling scope, except that those don't have a pulse detect mode, so they WILL lie to you unless you know what you are doing. It is not a digital storage issue, it is a sampling issue. Sampling oscilloscopes are in a class all to their own and very specialized. Their low sample rates hinder capturing infrequent events but if a repetitive glitch is there, they can still see it. A non-sampling oscilloscope with limited bandwidth could just as easily miss a narrow pulse because of bandwidth constraints no matter how high its sampling rate. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
On 04/17/2012 06:38 AM, Robert Atkinson wrote: I quite like the HP 546xx series 'scopes. An analog like interface but good DSO facilities. My regular 'scope at home is a 54645D mixed signal. Ideal for lower speed logic/anlog circuits and 8 bit PICs. Takes up a lot less space than a 16500x logic analyser! I still keep an older analog 'scope tucked away though. Agreed. I have two of the 54645Ds - my favorite scopes. I added the 54657A module to one of them - gives it GPIB, more storage, and more measurements (FFT, waveform math, ...) I also have Tek 7000 and 5000 series analog scopes, along with a older Tek digital (Oh! - am I becoming a collector? :-). These mainly gather dust these days. You can sometimes find the 54645Ds for $400 - $500 on EBay. Really nice scopes. -- Politics: The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. Ambrose ... attachment: smither.vcf___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
That's why the default mode for a DSO should always be pulse detect or whatever the manufacturer calls it, unless you know what you are doing. As far as I know, all DSOs have this or an equivalent mode where the ADC runs at full speed regardless of sweep speed, and the min and max readings between two display points are stored. If you are in a condition that would otherwise result in aliasing, the trace will look like a big fat trace, just like on an analog scope if you are probing a 10MHz signal at 1mS/div. You get the same issue with an analog sampling scope, except that those don't have a pulse detect mode, so they WILL lie to you unless you know what you are doing. It is not a digital storage issue, it is a sampling issue. To summarize, the instrument you have is ALWAYS more useful than the one you don't have, no exceptions. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:39:56 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes Well, if you doubt aliasing issues, see the attached, downloaded from my Tek TDS1002. This is a simulator for LORAN-A -John === ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:56:18 +, shali...@gmail.com wrote: That's why the default mode for a DSO should always be pulse detect or whatever the manufacturer calls it, unless you know what you are doing. As far as I know, all DSOs have this or an equivalent mode where the ADC runs at full speed regardless of sweep speed, and the min and max readings between two display points are stored. If you are in a condition that would otherwise result in aliasing, the trace will look like a big fat trace, just like on an analog scope if you are probing a 10MHz signal at 1mS/div. Do the low end Rigol oscilloscopes actually support peak detection? The manual only describes an envelope mode without any ability to set the number of envelopes like a Tektronix 2440 can for single shot peak detection. When I was in the market for a DSO a couple years ago, the Rigol representatives could not answer. I ended up rebuilding an old Tektronix 2230. You get the same issue with an analog sampling scope, except that those don't have a pulse detect mode, so they WILL lie to you unless you know what you are doing. It is not a digital storage issue, it is a sampling issue. Sampling oscilloscopes are in a class all to their own and very specialized. Their low sample rates hinder capturing infrequent events but if a repetitive glitch is there, they can still see it. A non-sampling oscilloscope with limited bandwidth could just as easily miss a narrow pulse because of bandwidth constraints no matter how high its sampling rate. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:38:52 -0500, Bob Smither smit...@c-c-i.com wrote: On 04/17/2012 06:38 AM, Robert Atkinson wrote: I quite like the HP 546xx series 'scopes. An analog like interface but good DSO facilities. My regular 'scope at home is a 54645D mixed signal. Ideal for lower speed logic/anlog circuits and 8 bit PICs. Takes up a lot less space than a 16500x logic analyser! I still keep an older analog 'scope tucked away though. Agreed. I have two of the 54645Ds - my favorite scopes. I added the 54657A module to one of them - gives it GPIB, more storage, and more measurements (FFT, waveform math, ...) My favorite oscilloscope is my 2230. I did not buy a Rigol because as far as I was able to determine, they do not support single shot peak detect. I also have Tek 7000 and 5000 series analog scopes, along with a older Tek digital (Oh! - am I becoming a collector? :-). These mainly gather dust these days. The more I use my 7000 series oscilloscopes the more I like them. 7A13 differential amplifiers allow safe probing of offline switching power supplies, the dual independent time bases can trigger from and view separate asynchronous signals, and the samplers while tricky to use are great for high speed design. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
IMO, the Tek 7000s are just wonderful. Everything a scope should be, especially if complemented by a Logic Analyzer. The 5000s not so much. -John I also have Tek 7000 and 5000 series analog scopes, along with a older Tek digital (Oh! - am I becoming a collector? :-). These mainly gather dust these days. The more I use my 7000 series oscilloscopes the more I like them. 7A13 differential amplifiers allow safe probing of offline switching power supplies, the dual independent time bases can trigger from and view separate asynchronous signals, and the samplers while tricky to use are great for high speed design. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
I quite like the HP 546xx series 'scopes. An analog like interface but good DSO facilities. My regular 'scope at home is a 54645D mixed signal. Ideal for lower speed logic/anlog circuits and 8 bit PICs. Takes up a lot less space than a 16500x logic analyser! I still keep an older analog 'scope tucked away though. I'm supriesd no-one has mentioned latency (or maybe I missed it) My last work place had a Lecroy Waverunner that was PC based and it was very annoying to use. Both signal and control response was poor. It also went off into self calibration at the most awkward moments. The 546xx has 3 lowerpower processors, each dedicated to a function and it shows. Used to have a HP 1980B and quite liked it. It was an analog 'scope with a digitiser attached. It was intened for ATE use so the single knob was not considered an issue. Robert G8RPI From: gandal...@aol.com gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, 16 April 2012, 23:29 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes In a message dated 16/04/2012 22:15:50 GMT Daylight Time, lstosk...@cox.net writes: I bought one of the 50 MHz versions at Dayton last year. OK for my needs. Not mentioned here is that the difference between the 50 and 100 MHz scopes is software control of roll off on the input. I haven't done it, but procedure was available on the WEB on how to spoof the software. -- It's still there, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it earlier, it's on the eevblog forum, topic 553.. Changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide That forum's been running for a couple of years now and I can testify that the software modification works very well. I've seen it suggested that all 1052s are just 1102s that failed to meet the 100MHz spec so have been sold as the lesser version and that upgraded units will be somehow inferior to a proper 1102, but that's just a load of rubbish and I've performed the measurements to prove it. This is a classic example of software defined equipment in general where the same hardware can be sold at different prices depending on what's enabled, or crippled, in the firmware. Given the price of the 1052, especially following the reductions sometime after I bought mine and even without the bonus conversion, it's an absolute steal. Cue the seller isn't really my wife or unclehonest message:-) The menu system can be a bit of a pain but it's intuitive enough to manage without the manual, and of course one has to be aware of the limitations, but I'm actually finding it far more user friendly than my Tek CRT based DSO. Perhaps one of the problems is that the Rigols really do offer so much for so little, and in a relatively small box, that it's sometimes difficult to take them as seriously as they deserve. I still think of the Tek, and an older HP1740 that's tucked away somewhere, as my real scopes but it's interesting that the 1052/1102 is always now the first one I turn to as my general purpose bench unit. Interesting too to consider that it's had no problem displaying the 1PPS pulse from several 5680A Rubidium units whilst half the list was still querying whether or not such pulses even existed:-) There was an earlier post mentioned the spontaneous splitting of knobs and I have to agree this can be a problem. Having had three that split, without provocation or a by your leave, I was eventually sent some replacements only to find it was impossible to force them on to the shafts without pushing the attached PCB out of the back of the scope and into never never land. On that basis I decided it probably wasn't so much another case of poor quality Chinese plastics as just another case of poor Chinese not quite getting the size right! So now I have some substitute knobs that do fit, don't quite match but what the heck, and a scope that still works remarkably well. I can live with that:-) Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
In a message dated 16/04/2012 22:15:50 GMT Daylight Time, lstosk...@cox.net writes: I bought one of the 50 MHz versions at Dayton last year. OK for my needs. Not mentioned here is that the difference between the 50 and 100 MHz scopes is software control of roll off on the input. I haven't done it, but procedure was available on the WEB on how to spoof the software. -- It's still there, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it earlier, it's on the eevblog forum, topic 553.. Changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide That forum's been running for a couple of years now and I can testify that the software modification works very well. I've seen it suggested that all 1052s are just 1102s that failed to meet the 100MHz spec so have been sold as the lesser version and that upgraded units will be somehow inferior to a proper 1102, but that's just a load of rubbish and I've performed the measurements to prove it. This is a classic example of software defined equipment in general where the same hardware can be sold at different prices depending on what's enabled, or crippled, in the firmware. Given the price of the 1052, especially following the reductions sometime after I bought mine and even without the bonus conversion, it's an absolute steal. Cue the seller isn't really my wife or unclehonest message:-) The menu system can be a bit of a pain but it's intuitive enough to manage without the manual, and of course one has to be aware of the limitations, but I'm actually finding it far more user friendly than my Tek CRT based DSO. Perhaps one of the problems is that the Rigols really do offer so much for so little, and in a relatively small box, that it's sometimes difficult to take them as seriously as they deserve. I still think of the Tek, and an older HP1740 that's tucked away somewhere, as my real scopes but it's interesting that the 1052/1102 is always now the first one I turn to as my general purpose bench unit. Interesting too to consider that it's had no problem displaying the 1PPS pulse from several 5680A Rubidium units whilst half the list was still querying whether or not such pulses even existed:-) There was an earlier post mentioned the spontaneous splitting of knobs and I have to agree this can be a problem. Having had three that split, without provocation or a by your leave, I was eventually sent some replacements only to find it was impossible to force them on to the shafts without pushing the attached PCB out of the back of the scope and into never never land. On that basis I decided it probably wasn't so much another case of poor quality Chinese plastics as just another case of poor Chinese not quite getting the size right! So now I have some substitute knobs that do fit, don't quite match but what the heck, and a scope that still works remarkably well. I can live with that:-) Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
Hi John Not sure if this a response to my post or if the timing's just coincidence, either way I still contend the Rigols offer a lot of bangs per buck but that one still has to be very aware of the limitations. Never any free lunches, but the snacks are sometimes quite good value:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 16/04/2012 23:45:09 GMT Daylight Time, j...@quikus.com writes: Well, if you doubt aliasing issues, see the attached, downloaded from my Tek TDS1002. This is a simulator for LORAN-A ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
Please don't interpret what I said to mean that no 'scope is better than an asian one. Without question, any halfway capable product is far better than nothing. But, IMO, a high end (used) analog scope beats the newer mid range digital scopes. Furtheremore, if you really don't know what you're looking at, I far prefer a scope that cannot add pathologies. YMMV, -John Hi John Not sure if this a response to my post or if the timing's just coincidence, either way I still contend the Rigols offer a lot of bangs per buck but that one still has to be very aware of the limitations. Never any free lunches, but the snacks are sometimes quite good value:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 16/04/2012 23:45:09 GMT Daylight Time, j...@quikus.com writes: Well, if you doubt aliasing issues, see the attached, downloaded from my Tek TDS1002. This is a simulator for LORAN-A ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
High speed without storage is really junk. You just can't do much with them. I recall a PO to fix an old 7904 in the 1980 running about $1500. Serious money back then. I bet they are unrepairable today. -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quikus.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:11:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quikus.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes Please don't interpret what I said to mean that no 'scope is better than an asian one. Without question, any halfway capable product is far better than nothing. But, IMO, a high end (used) analog scope beats the newer mid range digital scopes. Furtheremore, if you really don't know what you're looking at, I far prefer a scope that cannot add pathologies. YMMV, -John Hi John Not sure if this a response to my post or if the timing's just coincidence, either way I still contend the Rigols offer a lot of bangs per buck but that one still has to be very aware of the limitations. Never any free lunches, but the snacks are sometimes quite good value:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 16/04/2012 23:45:09 GMT Daylight Time, j...@quikus.com writes: Well, if you doubt aliasing issues, see the attached, downloaded from my Tek TDS1002. This is a simulator for LORAN-A ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Rigol scopes
lstoskopf@... writes: I bought one of the 50 MHz versions at Dayton last year. OK for my needs. Not mentioned here is that the difference between the 50 and 100 MHz scopes is software control of roll off on the input. I haven't done it, but procedure was available on the WEB on how to spoof the software. N0UU On the other hand, the prices have dropped since that procedure came out, with the 100MHz model going for what the 50MHz used to cost, and the 50MHz selling for about 80% of the price of the 100MHz. Those who want to avoid the hassle might prefer to just buy the DS1102E directly. It's really pretty decent, for what it is, and the interface is not nearly as bad as it could be. Andrew ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
