RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Noel J. Bergman]

Craig,

> From a technical perspective, people whose judgement I respect
> don't think that NIO will really help a servlet container much.
> Of course, you can't prove that assertion until you actually
> implement it and benchmark it ...

One of the things that I took away from from "Mr. Sun's" presentation is
that a blocking thread-pooled solution performed quite well.  A non-blocking
solution has the benefit of requiring vastly fewer threads to handle the
same number of active connections.  The other benefit that NIO adds is
improved buffer handling.

I have not looked at the connector protocols, but I'd expect to find a mux
with the web server rather than opening lots of connections.  Therefore, I
would not think of connection count as an issue.

That about right?

--- Noel


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Re: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On 11 Dec 2002, Joe Tomcat wrote:

> Date: 11 Dec 2002 12:39:11 -0800
> From: Joe Tomcat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Tomcat Users List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Tomcat Users List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
>
> On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 09:25, Jeanfrancois Arcand wrote:
> > The Servlet 2.4 (Tomcat 5) spec clearly say that we have to support JDK
> > 1.3...That's one of the reason why nio is not used. Once 1.4 will be
> > required, then we will evaluate the possibility of using nioGet
> > ready to submit patches at that time :-)
>
> I'll be working on those patches but the spec talks about the
> servlet container, not the connector, right?  So if Tomcat has a
> container which relies on NIO it would be ok, right?  And the container
> is where NIO would make the most difference.  Servlets still need to run
> in plain old threads, but static content (which is where Tomcat is
> weakest) are what would benefit from NIO.  In fact, I think that a pure
> Java web server using NIO properly (ie, select loop, not threads) may be
> able to outperform Apache (which uses threads, not a select loop).
> Maybe I will try to write a little select loop http, and then use it as
> a container
>

>From a spec perspective, making Tomcat 5 require JDK 1.4 is a non-issue --
any rev greater than or equal to 1.3 would be fine.

>From a market perspective (even though it's open source, that *is* a valid
issue), this would cause a somewhat significant reduction in the potential
market for Tomcat 5, because high quality JDK 1.4 implementations are not
available on all platforms where Tomcat users would like to run it.

>From a technical perspective, people whose judgement I respect don't think
that NIO will really help a servlet container much.  Of course, you can't
prove that assertion until you actually implement it and benchmark it ...

Craig


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Re: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Jeanfrancois Arcand]

Joe Tomcat wrote:


On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 09:25, Jeanfrancois Arcand wrote:
 

The Servlet 2.4 (Tomcat 5) spec clearly say that we have to support JDK 
1.3...That's one of the reason why nio is not used. Once 1.4 will be 
required, then we will evaluate the possibility of using nioGet 
ready to submit patches at that time :-)
   


I'll be working on those patches but the spec talks about the
servlet container, not the connector, right?  So if Tomcat has a
container which relies on NIO it would be ok, right?  

No, you cannot. The Specs (SRV.P.5) require supports HTTP 1.1 
(implemented as a connector). The container needs to run on 1.3/1.4 (not 
only parts of it)

We are currently discussing about modularity on tomcat-dev. I'm sure 
people (including me) will be interested to see how a connector written 
using nio perform against the actual connector implementation (they are 
quite optimized). We might be surprised and found that the actual 
connector is still faster than using nio ;-)


And the container
is where NIO would make the most difference.  Servlets still need to run
in plain old threads, but static content (which is where Tomcat is
weakest) are what would benefit from NIO.  In fact, I think that a pure
Java web server using NIO properly (ie, select loop, not threads) may be
able to outperform Apache (which uses threads, not a select loop). 
Maybe I will try to write a little select loop http, and then use it as
a container

I'm interested to see that live :-) If you have time to do it, I'm sure 
a lot of people will be interested by the result.

-- Jeanfrancois




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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Joe Tomcat]

On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 17:05, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I'll be working on those patches but the spec talks about the
> > servlet container, not the connector, right?  So if Tomcat has a
> > container which relies on NIO it would be ok, right?  And the container
> > is where NIO would make the most difference.
> 
> Don't you mean the CONNECTOR in those last two sentences?

Yes I meant connector, of course, not container.

> This was, in fact, the test case for java.nio performance testing last
> summer.  I don't want to reiterate the entirety of the findings, but I'll
> see if they are being published to the web.  Summary is that switching to
> java.nio didn't create miracles.

Interesting.  Well... one day when I have time to do it I will do some
benchmarks on it to see what the real-world difference is.  It may very
well be that _none_ of this matters; even an inefficient Java (or perl
or whatever) program can probably fill up a machine's WAN bandwidth
quite easily on modern hardware.  CPU/$ has improved vastly faster than
WAN/$ over the past few years so maybe conserving CPU is silly now.




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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Noel J. Bergman]

> I'll be working on those patches but the spec talks about the
> servlet container, not the connector, right?  So if Tomcat has a
> container which relies on NIO it would be ok, right?  And the container
> is where NIO would make the most difference.

Don't you mean the CONNECTOR in those last two sentences?

> Servlets still need to run in plain old threads, but static content
> (which is where Tomcat is weakest) are what would benefit from NIO.

Hence the reason for using apache as your front-end.  If your static content
isn't under a filtered domain, and therefore does not need to be seen by
tomcat, it needn't go to tomcat.

> In fact, I think that a pure Java web server using NIO properly
> (ie, select loop, not threads) may be able to outperform Apache
> (which uses threads, not a select loop).  Maybe I will try to
> write a little select loop http, and then use it as a container.

This was, in fact, the test case for java.nio performance testing last
summer.  I don't want to reiterate the entirety of the findings, but I'll
see if they are being published to the web.  Summary is that switching to
java.nio didn't create miracles.

Personally, I like java.nio.  And it might be worthwhile to see a connector
that uses java.nio.  But you'll find that you've still got real work to do.

--- Noel


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Re: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Joe Tomcat]

On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 09:25, Jeanfrancois Arcand wrote:
> The Servlet 2.4 (Tomcat 5) spec clearly say that we have to support JDK 
> 1.3...That's one of the reason why nio is not used. Once 1.4 will be 
> required, then we will evaluate the possibility of using nioGet 
> ready to submit patches at that time :-)

I'll be working on those patches but the spec talks about the
servlet container, not the connector, right?  So if Tomcat has a
container which relies on NIO it would be ok, right?  And the container
is where NIO would make the most difference.  Servlets still need to run
in plain old threads, but static content (which is where Tomcat is
weakest) are what would benefit from NIO.  In fact, I think that a pure
Java web server using NIO properly (ie, select loop, not threads) may be
able to outperform Apache (which uses threads, not a select loop). 
Maybe I will try to write a little select loop http, and then use it as
a container



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Re: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Rasputin]

* micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [1241 19:41]:
> PLEASE make them use JDK 1.4.

Please don't. 1.4 is unstable on many platforms at present.
 

-- 
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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Noel J. Bergman]

Micael,

> NIO is so important that we should do quite a lot to move to it.

IIRC, java.nio doesn't support SSL until probably JDK 1.5.  Even if you
discount JDK 1.3, java.nio is not quite an entire replacement, yet.

--- Noel


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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[micael]

All good points, of course.  I just don't understand why certain things 
move so slow.  This is one thing that seems to be much slower than 
reasonable conduct would dictate.  NIO is so important that we should do 
quite a lot to move to it.

At 02:51 PM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Howdy,
I can't make anyone use anything ;)  Like other Jakarta projects, things
like these must be voted upon among the developers, and only committers
(as opposed to plain contributors like me) can vote.

I would point out that like Mr. Arcand, said, the servlet spec 2.4
doesn't require JDK 1.4.  If the spec doesn't require it, Tomcat
certainly isn't going to require it.  So go bother the spec people ;)

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: micael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:41 PM
>To: Tomcat Users List
>Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
>
>PLEASE make them use JDK 1.4.
>
>At 08:22 AM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Howdy,
>>This is a common, and will become even more prevalent, question. ;)
Mr.
>>Schnack's answer explains a big part of it: right now we still have a
>>lot of users using JDK's older than 1.4.  A JDK 1.4 requirement is not
>>possible for the 4.x branch of tomcat.
>>
>>For Tomcat 5.x, there may be some discussion about this requirement,
but
>>I doubt it's going to happen.
>>
>>I also think most people working on tomcat recognize that the Apache
>>http is great at what it does: so why re-invent the wheel?  Especially
>>when we barely have enough time to keep our wheel (tomcat) rolling...
>>NIO fits in, IMHO (and I'm not speaking for any other developers) as a
>>cool thing to do once we have a JDK 1.4 requirement, but insufficient
by
>>itself to make JDK 1.4 required.
>>
>>Yoav Shapira
>>Millennium ChemInformatics
>>
>>
>> >-Original Message-
>> >From: Felipe Schnack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:14 AM
>> >To: Tomcat Users List
>> >Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
>> >
>> >  Yes... would be really cool, I took a look at these packages...
but I
>> >think probably tomcat will implement them in a year or more, 1.3 is
>> >being used by a lot of people yet.
>> >
>> >> It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very
>>high-performance IO
>> >> capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to
serve
>> >static
>> >> content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the
direction
>>of
>> >> using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these
>>high-performance
>> >> features?
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, 
e-mail:   <mailto:tomcat-user->[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
>Micael
>
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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Shapira, Yoav]

Howdy,
I can't make anyone use anything ;)  Like other Jakarta projects, things
like these must be voted upon among the developers, and only committers
(as opposed to plain contributors like me) can vote.  

I would point out that like Mr. Arcand, said, the servlet spec 2.4
doesn't require JDK 1.4.  If the spec doesn't require it, Tomcat
certainly isn't going to require it.  So go bother the spec people ;)

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: micael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:41 PM
>To: Tomcat Users List
>Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
>
>PLEASE make them use JDK 1.4.
>
>At 08:22 AM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Howdy,
>>This is a common, and will become even more prevalent, question. ;)
Mr.
>>Schnack's answer explains a big part of it: right now we still have a
>>lot of users using JDK's older than 1.4.  A JDK 1.4 requirement is not
>>possible for the 4.x branch of tomcat.
>>
>>For Tomcat 5.x, there may be some discussion about this requirement,
but
>>I doubt it's going to happen.
>>
>>I also think most people working on tomcat recognize that the Apache
>>http is great at what it does: so why re-invent the wheel?  Especially
>>when we barely have enough time to keep our wheel (tomcat) rolling...
>>NIO fits in, IMHO (and I'm not speaking for any other developers) as a
>>cool thing to do once we have a JDK 1.4 requirement, but insufficient
by
>>itself to make JDK 1.4 required.
>>
>>Yoav Shapira
>>Millennium ChemInformatics
>>
>>
>> >-Original Message-
>> >From: Felipe Schnack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:14 AM
>> >To: Tomcat Users List
>> >Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
>> >
>> >  Yes... would be really cool, I took a look at these packages...
but I
>> >think probably tomcat will implement them in a year or more, 1.3 is
>> >being used by a lot of people yet.
>> >
>> >> It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very
>>high-performance IO
>> >> capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to
serve
>> >static
>> >> content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the
direction
>>of
>> >> using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these
>>high-performance
>> >> features?
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:tomcat-user-
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:tomcat-user-
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Micael
>
>---
>
>This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents
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>privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
>individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent
as
>indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
>copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of
the
>information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If
you
>have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.
Thank
>you
>
>
>
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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[micael]

PLEASE make them use JDK 1.4.

At 08:22 AM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:

Howdy,
This is a common, and will become even more prevalent, question. ;)  Mr.
Schnack's answer explains a big part of it: right now we still have a
lot of users using JDK's older than 1.4.  A JDK 1.4 requirement is not
possible for the 4.x branch of tomcat.

For Tomcat 5.x, there may be some discussion about this requirement, but
I doubt it's going to happen.

I also think most people working on tomcat recognize that the Apache
http is great at what it does: so why re-invent the wheel?  Especially
when we barely have enough time to keep our wheel (tomcat) rolling...
NIO fits in, IMHO (and I'm not speaking for any other developers) as a
cool thing to do once we have a JDK 1.4 requirement, but insufficient by
itself to make JDK 1.4 required.

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: Felipe Schnack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:14 AM
>To: Tomcat Users List
>Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
>
>  Yes... would be really cool, I took a look at these packages... but I
>think probably tomcat will implement them in a year or more, 1.3 is
>being used by a lot of people yet.
>
>> It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very
high-performance IO
>> capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to serve
>static
>> content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the direction
of
>> using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these
high-performance
>> features?

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Micael

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Re: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Jeanfrancois Arcand]

The Servlet 2.4 (Tomcat 5) spec clearly say that we have to support JDK 
1.3...That's one of the reason why nio is not used. Once 1.4 will be 
required, then we will evaluate the possibility of using nioGet 
ready to submit patches at that time :-)

-- Jeanfrancois

Joe Tomcat wrote:

It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very high-performance
IO capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to serve
static content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the
direction of using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these
high-performance features?

I'm curious and hoping to hear what the deverlopers' thoughts are on
this.



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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Rademacher Tobias]

Hi Folks,

you can wrap a ServletInputStream or ServlertOuputStream with a Channel.

Just use:

 java.nio.Channels.newChannel(inStream);

So you are able to use nio into your servlets. I understand that's hard to
port
form "old" io to nio. But when you are able to use 1.4+ and you are also
able
to benefit from nio. nio is interesting for file upload/file download
because
if you use it wisely you can write fast and memory-safe filehandlings
(mapped files
does not wast JVM memory...).

Other tomcat performace is quite okay. I guess nio would only help to make
the container
more stable which make the tandem to apache not longer relevant. As the
tandem works fine - 
why should we replace it... 

Bye
Toby

> -Original Message-
> From: Shapira, Yoav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:23 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
> 
> 
> Howdy,
> This is a common, and will become even more prevalent, 
> question. ;)  Mr.
> Schnack's answer explains a big part of it: right now we still have a
> lot of users using JDK's older than 1.4.  A JDK 1.4 requirement is not
> possible for the 4.x branch of tomcat.  
> 
> For Tomcat 5.x, there may be some discussion about this 
> requirement, but
> I doubt it's going to happen.  
> 
> I also think most people working on tomcat recognize that the Apache
> http is great at what it does: so why re-invent the wheel?  Especially
> when we barely have enough time to keep our wheel (tomcat) rolling...
> NIO fits in, IMHO (and I'm not speaking for any other developers) as a
> cool thing to do once we have a JDK 1.4 requirement, but 
> insufficient by
> itself to make JDK 1.4 required.
> 
> Yoav Shapira
> Millennium ChemInformatics
> 
> 
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Felipe Schnack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:14 AM
> >To: Tomcat Users List
> >Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
> >
> >  Yes... would be really cool, I took a look at these 
> packages... but I
> >think probably tomcat will implement them in a year or more, 1.3 is
> >being used by a lot of people yet.
> >
> >> It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very
> high-performance IO
> >> capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to serve
> >static
> >> content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in 
> the direction
> of
> >> using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these
> high-performance
> >> features?
> 
> --
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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Shapira, Yoav]

Howdy,
This is a common, and will become even more prevalent, question. ;)  Mr.
Schnack's answer explains a big part of it: right now we still have a
lot of users using JDK's older than 1.4.  A JDK 1.4 requirement is not
possible for the 4.x branch of tomcat.  

For Tomcat 5.x, there may be some discussion about this requirement, but
I doubt it's going to happen.  

I also think most people working on tomcat recognize that the Apache
http is great at what it does: so why re-invent the wheel?  Especially
when we barely have enough time to keep our wheel (tomcat) rolling...
NIO fits in, IMHO (and I'm not speaking for any other developers) as a
cool thing to do once we have a JDK 1.4 requirement, but insufficient by
itself to make JDK 1.4 required.

Yoav Shapira
Millennium ChemInformatics


>-Original Message-
>From: Felipe Schnack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:14 AM
>To: Tomcat Users List
>Subject: RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
>
>  Yes... would be really cool, I took a look at these packages... but I
>think probably tomcat will implement them in a year or more, 1.3 is
>being used by a lot of people yet.
>
>> It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very
high-performance IO
>> capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to serve
>static
>> content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the direction
of
>> using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these
high-performance
>> features?

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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Felipe Schnack]

  Yes... would be really cool, I took a look at these packages... but I
think probably tomcat will implement them in a year or more, 1.3 is
being used by a lot of people yet.

On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 04:13, Nicholas Orr wrote:
> You might get a faster reply from "developers" if you post this in the
> developers mailing list.
> 
> It would be good to see something like this.  I only use apache for this
> fact of fast static content serving and nothing else.
> 
> Nicholas Orr
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Tomcat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 December 2002 12:32 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: The future of Tomcat and java.nio
> 
> 
> It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very high-performance IO
> capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to serve static
> content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the direction of
> using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these high-performance
> features?
> 
> I'm curious and hoping to hear what the deverlopers' thoughts are on this.
> 
> 
> 
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RE: The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Nicholas Orr]

You might get a faster reply from "developers" if you post this in the
developers mailing list.

It would be good to see something like this.  I only use apache for this
fact of fast static content serving and nothing else.

Nicholas Orr

-Original Message-
From: Joe Tomcat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Wednesday, 11 December 2002 12:32 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: The future of Tomcat and java.nio


It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very high-performance IO
capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to serve static
content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the direction of
using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these high-performance
features?

I'm curious and hoping to hear what the deverlopers' thoughts are on this.



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The future of Tomcat and java.nio

[Joe Tomcat]

It seems like Java 1.4's NIO package offers some very high-performance
IO capabilities, such as select loops, which could allow Java to serve
static content as fast as Apache can.  Will Tomcat be going in the
direction of using a NIO-based connector that might incorporate these
high-performance features?

I'm curious and hoping to hear what the deverlopers' thoughts are on
this.



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