>It must be that there aren't very many BY hams that live in rural areas with
>low noise floors. Hopefully portable operations with verticals on the beach
>will catch on there.
They need to get phasing boxes and figure out how to use them -- those
things can't fix everything but they can clear
50 foot high inv. L here; total length 120 feet; 101 radials on
ground, but lengths vary from 10 feet to around 100 feet with most in
the 20, 30, 50 foot lengths. Also I have an aluminum sided garage
that I strapped into the ground system. Minimal reactance is at 1840
(I forget, but I think
A bit more field intensity extends in the direction opposite the
direction of the horizontal part of the inverted L element.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
>The radial height above ground clearly did not need to be 50 feet,. It did
>need to be high enough to easily be well above a tall truck, or more commonly,
>a horseback rider.
The advantage to this is that you can get away with wire composition
(copper clad steel, or even aluminum if handled
Since I am on a 50 x 100 foot lot, it is impossible for me to separate
my rx antennas from my tx antenna. Of course on transmit, preamps and
the NCC1 are deactivated, but even so, the NCC1 had internal relay
chatter (there are around nine PC board mounted relays inside). Small
RF chokes in
First, get some kind of portable receiver out and put it on 1820 and
verify you are hearing the harmonic. I doubt it is being generated in
your gear. You will probably hear it because you are only 2 miles
from the tx site and if the station is running 5 or more KW they're
likely suppressing the
>How do you operate QSK with that kind of setup ?
I don't operate QSK but I am sure there are QSK ways of protecting
preamps. This is a question for the QRO CW DX folks.
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
On those ICE preamps, check the small dipped inductors, because they
can blow open if the preamp is exposed to a high enough RF field. If
your preamp is on a rx antenna and you are transmitting with ham QRO
nearby that's enough to do it. IIRC powering down the preamp isn't
enough. It has to be
Okay thanks for the explanation.
Rob
K5UJ
> Depends on the efficiency of the antenna and whether there's a preamp at
> the feedpoint of those with low efficiency. It doesn't matter for higher
> efficiency RX antennas like Beverages, or where local noise levels are
> fairly high. And it doesn't
>Al shields and CCS centers can be fairly lossy below VHF. CATV coax tends to
>be much cheaper than the coax designed for transmitting, thanks both the the
>lower cost construction and the extremely large market for it.
Does this mean we are better off using something like RG8X with copper
There were a few electronic key designs that surfaced in the '50s,
maybe even late '40s, usually appearing in QST. But then Jim Ricks
W9TO designed his TO Keyer which Halicrafters started manufacturing
and that pretty much ended the other designs such as the MON-KEY.
Vibroplex made a single lever
I am always amazed at the hams who will buy a home within sight of a
broadcast tower. Rule no. 1 when looking for a new QTH is to find
where all the AM and FM plants are and avoid them; especially QRO AMs
vis a vis 160 and HF. I remember looking around the 670 site in
Glendale Heights IL around
>Just cut 20 more 70' radials. Time to go play in the yard.
If that were all I could add, I'd switch them to 40 35' radials.
The R component of my inverted L on around 1840 is 11 ohms. X is
around 20. That's with 101 radials. I look for a R of at least 15
ohms where X is minimal on an
>I'm surprised that the broadcast industry is just discoving [sic] this topic.
What makes you think it is just being discovered?
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Good question. I don't think you mentioned any cost limit. Given
that I would put up a substantial self supporting commercial tower ~
130' tall. Solid legs, 5 or 6' face tapering to 1 or 2 feet. Pyrod
or similar. I'd put a skirt on it, 3 vertical wires on insulated
standoffs with horizontal
Good luck with that voltage breakdown rating for foam RG6 running high
power through it and other than a flat line.
As to the milliwatt loss on transmit, okay FB but on rx with
microvolts, I'm already deaf and don't need for it to be any worse
than it is.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable
I know many will disagree but I wish the ham industry had never gone
to RG6 and F plugs and jacks for filters, preamps and various rx
antennas etc. I know that UHF/BNC/N take up more space and cost more
but the feedline and connector series that works for broadcast TV,
cable and broadcast FM
I can't comment on the folded counterpoise because I am not familiar
with it. The "broadcast model" which I take to mean 120 radials is
used because in the case of a 90 degree tower on medium wave, the
earth current intensity is far enough from the feed point to
necessitate a higher number of
For medium wave, every ham who transmits with a base excited vertical
radiator should get a copy of _Radio-Electronic Transmission
Fundamentals_ by B. Whitfield Griffith, Jr. 2nd ed., Noble Pub. Co.,
Atlanta Ga., c2000, ISBN 1884932134. 638 p. Griffith is a retired
principal engineer with
The problem with adding a top wire to your 43 foot vertical is that it
is probably not made to support a wire pulling on it at the top,
unless it's cross section is uniform and it is guyed at the mid-point
and top so it doesn't pull over. What is often done in this situation
is that a trap is
>Well he drove the 100 miles up here and arrived with a colleague about 2pm,
spent a while in the shack listening to the noise, and monitoring it on
their equipment connected to my Top Band dipole. After about 45 minutes they
both went out in the street, and an hour later they came back to say
> Dog electronic fence wire via ebay.
Bad idea, except maybe for field day or some other temporary setup due
to rust. Also, long thin runs of steel may not return RF well.
For permanence it's a lot better to invest in 3000 feet copper that
can provide sixty 50 foot radials. That will at least
I'd look into some kind of drone for this.
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
I have a NCC-1 with a pair of rotatable pixel loops. I have one
filter in the NCC-1, a high pass broadcast band filter. It really
hits the stations around 1000 and below. Doesn't have much
attenuation near the top of the band but the problem stations are down
below 1200 here (Chicago).
73
Rob
My hunch is that your problem is the wire you are using. My inv. L
is strung with hard drawn 7 strand bare AWG 14 copper. Multi-strand
or solid soft drawn will probably break on you eventually.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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My rx antennas are around 40 to 50 feet separated. I get good peaks
and nulls on 160 and the top of the AM broadcast band. 80 m. doesn't
work as well. But 160 is where you really want it to work. That's
where noise is a big problem. Use a groundwave broadcast station on
1400 or higher to
You probably have a preamp on your rx loop. The first thing to do is
kill the dc to it on transmit to shut it down. I have an Airspy
HF+Discovery SDR which has a fragile front end. To keep tx RF out of
it, in addition to shutting down the preamps, I put a pair of coax
relays in series, the
Tower base concrete should not be in series between the tower and
ground. There should not be a voltage gradient across the concrete
base. All ground paths should be strapped around the concrete base.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband -
No personal experience but I've heard repeatedly over the years that
the inverted L kit works way better than the loading coil. This makes
sense. I think the inverted L kit consists of a trap you hang off
the top of the BX section. You probably supply the wire but on that
I'm not sure. I
If you are having a problem it would be faster if you wrote what your
problem is.
Rob
K5UJ
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A ham can certainly try a voltage fed 180 degree vertical, but the
physical conditions at the feedpoint change dramatically because it's
quite possible a few KV of RF v. will be there, unlike what we have
with a current maxima at the feedpoint. So insulation and keeping
surfaces dry become much
>I have been trying to replace my inverted L, which broke a few weeks ago, and
>am having all sorts of puzzlements. Please be kind - I was a history major. 1.
> The inverted L broke at the turn, so I went looking for sturdier >wire. I
>wound up with some #14 insulated recommended by our local
It depends. If you have two or more verticals for a phased antenna,
and full length radials, the points where the ground systems intersect
is where the radials should be terminated and bonded to copper strap
running along the boundary where they cross each other. If you have
an out building in
Inspect your feedline you plan to use (sounds like it is Heliax) and
make sure the jacket is undamaged. If it is okay, you can bury it or
just lay it on the ground and it won't matter if water covers it. Of
more concern is keeping the junction where the feedline divides dry.
If you use enough
To clarify:
> The sign your antenna is efficient will be a
> narrow R and X sweet spot. R should drop down to around 14 ohms and
> (depending on the length of the driven element) X should hit zero over
> a few kc.
I should have written:
X should hit zero over a few kc at some point in the
> My questions are these - is a
> relatively flat curve to be expected, or a sign of something wrong?
A flat curve is to be expected and it's a sign something is wrong.
And that something is that you do not have nearly enough radials in
your ground system. Your radials are on the ground. Such a
Bi-directional loops lose their directivity for the most part, when
being applied to skywave signals. Is this mini-flag still
unidirectional on skywave? I would think not, but must ask.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
How much is "affordable?" I mean, if you pay junk money, you'll
probably get ... disappointment either right away or after a few
months.
A possible exception is some place warm all year with no broadcast
stations nearby, so fixing and improving any time is easy. OTOH if
you are in blizzard
I estimate that my receiving loops are 20 or 30 dB down from a full
sized antenna such as a 1/2 wave dipole at 50 or 60 feet, an antenna
that a lot of casual operators use (often to their detriment) on 160
m. Sometimes I'll just add 30 dB to the S meter reading.
Alternatively, I'll tell the guy
The problem with cages isn't electrical; the thing to consider is
physical. If you are in an area where you can have ice you have to
consider if your cage and its supports are strong enough to hold ice
under high winds. You don't want a relatively inexpensive wire cage
to pull down more costly
I've used a PVC pipe around 1.5 or 2" o.d. and ~ 3 feet long, for the
past 11 years. No problems so far but it is braced with dacron from
the insulator end, back up to the mast a few feet above where the PVC
is clamped to the mast. Mine is unprotected from sun but the sun
exposure is less in
> I do take offence at people suggesting that I am somehow lying about the
> results I have always had with a 160m Dipole at 50ft !
I don't think anyone believes you are lying, but perhaps instead, that
you seem to imply that your experience can be generalized and that you
are therefore,
> IMHO, for that number, on-the-ground radials do not need to be anywhere near
> that long. Personally, I subscribe to the same-length-as-the-vertical
> guideline.
The only thing about this I advise in the way of a change is something
W1BB recommended, which was that the radials on the ground
I've never understood what is gained by using a balun at the feedpoint
in this application. The feedline is unbalanced as is the load.
What's the point of a balun. The wild variations in R and X over the
range of the band will likely result in heat and loss at the balun.
If the point is to
Are you sure you want to homebrew a vacuum tube _transceiver?_ How
about starting with a separate transmitter and receiver? A tube CW
transmitter for 160 is certainly feasible. A transceiver is too in
theory at least, but kind of a tall order. If you pull that off,
you'll certainly have my
> There was also some mention to the effect that nickel was
> a "non-ferrous" metal and therefore would be good at RF.
> Nothing could be further from the truth. Although technically
> "non-ferrous", nickel is nevertheless "ferromagnetic".
> I once measured some nickel strap material for RF loss
> Rob, are you implying that I shouldn't use a steel lattice tower to conduct
> RF as a radiator?
Good question and I wondered the same thing. Firstly not "implying"
that at all.
It comes down to mass and surface area. The problem with steel, iron,
etc. is when you have a lot of RF current
We all learn this sooner or later: Don't use ferrous metals to
conduct RF. If a metal fails the magnet test, it's out. Every time
I get some item of homebrew or something that's had a previous owner,
(transmitter or matching network) I go through with a magnet and see
if a previous owner or
Scroll down to drawing 5 and 6 to see the proper way of handing
intersecting radials.
http://www.hatdaw.com/papers/groundsystem.pdf
73
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
If you want to find out about QRN somewhere you don't have to ask on
an email list. You can just go to windy.com or www.lightningmaps.org
and see for yourself. Also lightningmaps has a gray line plot so you
can see where dawn and dusk are.
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives:
The proper way to use a tower like yours as a base excited monopole is
to construct a pier of concrete with a bottom plate pin bowl that is
steel and bonded to copper strap that goes down on each of four sides
of the pier to the ground ring. The reason for this is so that there
is no voltage
Seems to me that for the money hams pay Flex in that annual service
fee, (or is it monthly?) you ought to get professional Windows
maintenance. There are ex-MS techs out there who can be hired.
I've had a Mac at home for the past 15 years at least. Since 2008
it's been a mac mini. So far,
Tnx for clarification.
> I don't know what "noise is usually AM" means.
Hi, I guess I was thinking of RFI from appliances and arcing contacts
on power lines.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
>All of this success for BCB listening doesn't mean jack on 160 meters.
>On the BCB, you are never fighting noise, rather just separating different
>stations. They did also do that on 160 meters, for example, letting me
>work JA's even when stateside stations were also calling me.
I'm not
For 160 m. frequencies, connectors on hardline that preserve the
geometry (Z) of the line aren't needed. You can dress the line (i.e.
strip back the jacket and dielectric) and make connections to
transmitters and loads with copper strap that's wrapped around the
center and shield and held with
On 5/15/2020 8:27 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:
""A more reliable approach is a tuner in your shack. The extra coax
cable loss from elevated VSWR is insignificant on topband.""
We don't really have enough information to make that claim. First,
you ought to get a copy of Radio-Electronic
Most AM plants have been where they are for decades. I remember being
at the local 670 site several years ago. That tx site has been there
since the 1930s. This is a ~800 foot tower, now with two signals on
it, 670 and 780, each 50 KW which means the total peak power on
positive modulation is
It is indeed true that variations in liquid soil moisture will
dramatically affect ground system performance and base fed vertical
impedance when an on, or below grade ground system is used. Frozen
ground moisture is on a par with dry ground. This is one of the
reasons for going beyond the
Last year I purchased an Airspy HF+ Discovery SD receiver. Eventually
I got around to trying to use it with a second hand Windows laptop. I
was concerned about blowing out the front end on transmit because I
had heard of that happening with these receivers that are not designed
exclusively for
>This is only half tongue-in-cheek.
>With the ambient noise going up, and there being limits to the size and cost
>of receiving arrays most amateurs can build, the next logical step is to raise
>the output power. Perhaps the FCC should be >petitioned to raise the legal
>limit? They were
My opinion: the PCB scare is overblown, just like lead in paint,
asbestos, etc. If you are intelligent about it, taking prudent
precautions, PCB in caps and dummy loads should be fine. I'm sure
hand wringers will weigh in with all kinds of nanny state far fetched
what ifs, but I have PCBs
>So how is it that I consistently work all over the world on 160m with my
>horizontal dipole at 50ft?!
Oh boy, here we go again. As I believe I have pointed out before,
your QTH is not that far from a fairly vast amount of salt water. You
can believe anything you want, but your experience if
>Modes over last 2 hours
Some may say this is nit picking but to me it is important:
MOST of those so called modes listed are NOT different modes of
transmission, they are digital protocols. A mode of transmission is a
method for altering a RF carrier so it conveys information. CW is a
mode.
Interesting information here:
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Antenna%20Book%20Supplemental%20Files/22nd%20Edition/Seawater%20Grounds%20-%20by%20N6LF.pdf
Rob
K5UJ
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Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Actually, if you have a quarter wave driven element and you are
disconnecting it at the feedpoint, your relay concern shouldn't be
voltage so much as current. Fast switching and large contact surface
is more important than voltage handling.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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If you open the tx antenna feedline for rx, from my experience, you
need to completely open the entire feedline, namely the coaxial cable
shield as well as the center conductor. coaxial relays that maintain
conductivity of the shield when N.O. won't detune/isolate the tx
antenna. I use a pair
>Curious as why non resistor spark plugs aren't on the list of choices. Easy to
>gap. Pt-Pt electrodes last forever (100k miles). There was a ham mounting two
>on a Cu plate for ladder line, but that was many years ago. <
That can work but the other construction methods offer a wider range
of
There are a number of ways of making a ball gap. but more important
is arriving at the correct spacing for the gap.
The way rain is handled is usually by positioning the balls one above
the other so a water bridge doesn't form between the balls.
Read this by Mark Persons:
Went through this about 2 years ago. Firstly, define "efficient." If
you mean over 90%, as in one of those two stage furnaces with PVC
handling moisture then you are consigned to having to use a variable
speed DC motor (there are no variable speed AC motors, only speed
settings you set manually
If you have a properly constructed typical inverted L, i.e. 50 or 60
foot vertical and similar length horizontal, AND a good ground system
serving as the other half of the antenna, your feedpoint Z will be 10
to 20 ohms. The reason you need a matching network is that most coax
(this assumes you
>This has got to be on a case-by case basis. I don't have any listening
>antennas, so i listen on my transmit vertical. It works fine. For me. Most
>of the time. Would I hear more stuff with listening antennas? I bet the
>answer is yes under certain conditions.
Yes under certain
> Over past few months, I have picked up an S5-S7 noise signature on my TB inv
> L antenna with K2AV FCP system.
I would not use an inverted L for receiving. Unusable for rx at my
QTH but FB for transmitting.
73
Rob
K5UJ
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> I can't get into any computer mode, mainly because I've been a software
>engineer for almost 40 year and dealing with computers at home is a
>non-starter with me.I like ARC-5s, BC-348s, and Navy RBB's
>myself..
Same here. Computer science major; 30 years in front of monitors and
I'd also put RF chokes in series with the DC relay lines, at the base
of the vertical antenna to further keep RF off it but also to break it
up so the relay line doesn't detune the 80 m. vertical, perhaps with
another pair at the shack entrance. All this sure seems like a lot
of work which is
There's activity and then there's "activity." I take it that
"activity" in this discussion really means DX. It so happens that
there's other kinds of operating going on on 160 m. besides DX chasing
if you can tolerate the tedium and torture of an enjoyable ragchew
with an ordinary ham nearby.
> It doesn't work very well. Last night it was much poorer on receive and
> transmit than my existing 43' vertical setup. I'm not sure what to think.
Your fundamental problem is a lack of understanding of how a monopole
works, specifically a base fed vertical with a ground system. Anyone
who
Hmmmyou DID relocate or rebuild your ground system so it converges
on a point below the bottom of the 100 foot tall wire right? I mean,
you aren't using the 43 foot vert. ground system with the 100' wire?
A series fed vertical isn't rocket science so let's not over think
this. If it doesn't
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year:
On 160 m. (probably due to the close proximity to my inverted L) my
NCC-1 rx antenna phasing box would snap crackle and pop on transmit,
most likely the result of RF getting into the nine relay coils inside.
If you employ phased rx antennas and a tx antenna,
If your inverted L is any good at all it will suck as a receiving
antenna. This is one of the key things to accept about medium wave
but many casual 160 m. operators can't wrap their heads around it. A
flame throwing tx antenna will probably have a completely unacceptable
noise level on
Some of you fellows who want to use Ns may benefit from this hint and kink:
https://www.radioworld.com/columns-and-views/repair-and-protect-type-n-connectors
Rob
K5UJ
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>>W6NL asked me this question - would you run 1500 watts with BNC connectors?
It depends on the duty cycle, length of transmission and vswr.
Brief contester type transmissons at 50% d/c into a load with Z = line
characteristic Z is probably okay.
AM broadcasting 1 KW carrier for 24 hours
My inv. L is 50 feet up and 70 horizontal. Wire is #14 bare 7 strand
hard drawn. 3 feet out from mast. 101 radials, two ground rods and
aluminum siding on garage strapped in to ground sys. on around 1840 Z
is 11 R and ~ 20 ohms X. A typical inverted L with a good ground
system should be down
>Why is it ever necessary to call on 1830, 1820, 1822 etc. exactly? Call CQ on
>1820.3, or 1820.4 or 1822.6 or 1827.8.
This only started with plastic radios and digital displays and got
worse with dial resolution down to one cycle. Back when everyone had
VFOs like the HA-5 with dial markers only
Don't re-invent the wheel. There are cable installers all over the
place--these are people who are given the tools and connectors by
Comcast and other big companies to make high reliability
installations. When you see a cable truck out on location stop and
ask the guy what he uses. If you
>Rob, Not barbed wire, but electric fence wire. This wire stays good for
>decades. Look at the horse and cattle farms around you. It has the same
>conductivity as your galvanized steel tower. Nor does anyone consider
>making a tower out of copper or copper clad steel.☺ A radial system of 60
>1/4
Oh man, any time this topic comes up anywhere the guys come out with
all kinds of suggestions for wire that won't last like galvanized
steel and electric fence wire. Nix nix nix...if you want a permanent
ground system go with copper, insulated or not. Stranded doesn't lie
down as well; you want
>Some folks have commented on WWV's
>minuscule operating expense when compared to the total federal budget, but
>the problem with that thinking is we have thousands of federal programs and
>departmental budgets that also contribute just a tiny fraction to federal
>expense. Collectively, it adds
>Finally I get an email from the FCC this morning , I won a lottery!!
FB on the new call, but is this all you get? Don't they mail out
something on paper?
Rob
K5UJ
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Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
I respectfully suggest the Baker Is. dxpedition be postponed for a few
years until band condx improve. It makes no sense to me to mount this
costly undertaking to a limited access location when propagation is in
the toilet. If USFWS is managing access, they've lately shown that
they'll only
for permanent installation it's a waste of time because thin wire
steel mesh (chicken fence mesh) will rust away in most ground in a
short time.
Recommend copper mesh but professionally it only seems to be employed
around the base pier of voltage fed towers. For a current fed tower a
lot of
Suggest that for Hawaii or other locations where you want specific
soil data, contact local small AM or walk in and ask to talk to C.E.
Big corp. owned stations will give corporate hq. run around.
>>#1 As far south in the country as possible due to better propagation.
bzzt, sorry but South =
1. You never use an inverted L or other vertical for receiving,
unless maybe, you are in a QTH so remote and noise free it might work.
But in-town, forget it.
2, From my experience, 7 or 8 out of 10 hams on 160 m., have poor
antennas, usually low horizontal wires. Most of these fellows are
I found I had to put a relay in the feedline to my inverted L to
completely open the line on rx. Your typical "coax relay" only opens
the center conductor. Fortunately on 160 m. an open frame relay that
opens the entire line isn't much of an impedance bump. It is
essential that the relay be
A 180 or 190 degree vertical radiator presents a few different
problems compared to one 90 degrees long, due to the high voltage at
the feedpoint. You can have ground loss there, but since it is more
of a coupling problem than a return current problem, the earth shield
is usually a copper mesh
>> I have researched Laport's material, and find nothing that compares
multi-tower array performance when using insulated radial wire versus
uninsulated wire when using a bus wire at the radial overlap points. Since
his worked in the 1950s mostly focused on directional broadcast tower arrays
--
> As is, its infuriating listening to high noise
> levels on 160m. If I cant hear on 160m...except for the usual louder
> stations, Im not going to even try TX.
Don't let noise stop you from transmitting.
>Right now, Im trying to evaluate if 160m is even worth
>the effort required. Are the
Actually the problem with the alleged QRM and FT8 is more about simply
identifying ham computerized modes of digital transmission and
reception and separating them out from the rest of the noise generated
by poorly filtered appliances, leaky cable TV, power line data
communications etc. I am
Posting for Rudi
R.A.
-- Forwarded message --
From: Rudolf Klos
Date: Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 2:58 PM
Subject: Fw: Solar Storm September 6th in real time Video - K5UJ de DK7PE
To: ranchoro...@gmail.com
Hi Rob,
I tried to post this infor regarding the latest
> Thanks for sharing this info.
> Would you please provide more information on the relay model number and how
> it is wired into your system.
I used a P open frame relay 4PDT but a single throw will work.
What's important is that the relay use metal other than steel (or
other magnetic metal) for
I discovered my rx antennas worked much better if my tx antenna was
completely disconnected from the station. Most coaxial relays or T/R
switches only break the center conductor. That's not good enough.
There has to be a complete disconnection which I provided by using an
open frame relay
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