Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
--+--
 Reporter:  twim  |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement   | Status:  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium|  Milestone:  Tor: unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor  |Version:
 Severity:  Normal| Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:| Points:
 Reviewer:  teor  |Sponsor:
--+--

Comment (by dgoulet):

 This doesn't apply to prop224 because we've removed that delay.

 And for legacy HS, iirc with a discussion I had with asn is that we aren't
 *that* comfortable merging this in the legacy system which could introduce
 bug/instability/... in a system we basically want to go away.

 My take on this is that "yes it should be changed in legacy but do we
 really want to go down there"?

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
--+--
 Reporter:  twim  |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement   | Status:  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium|  Milestone:  Tor: unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor  |Version:
 Severity:  Normal| Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:| Points:
 Reviewer:  teor  |Sponsor:
--+--

Comment (by nickm):

 If there's any progress fixing the review we can pull this into a more
 recent milestone

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
--+--
 Reporter:  twim  |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement   | Status:  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium|  Milestone:  Tor: unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor  |Version:
 Severity:  Normal| Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:| Points:
 Reviewer:  teor  |Sponsor:
--+--
Changes (by dgoulet):

 * sponsor:  SponsorR-can =>


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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, review-group-11,   |  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201611  |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by dgoulet):

 * status:  needs_review => needs_revision


Comment:

 Commented on the gitlab merge. I made some suggestion on simplifying this
 even more. I might have said stupid things so feel free to express any
 disagreement :). Thanks twim!

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, review-group-11,   |  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201611  |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by twim):

 * status:  needs_information => needs_review


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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_information
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, review-group-11,   |  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201611  |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-

Comment (by twim):

 Unmessing even further by detaching the discussion about initial shuffling
 of services to #20524. It's good to have this feature implemented
 separately.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_information
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research,|  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201610, review-group-11 |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-

Comment (by twim):

 I revisited the patch, fixed some culprits there and simplified the code.
 Updated code lies in my `ticket20082_030_02` branch and PR is
 https://gitlab.com/nogoegst/tor/merge_requests/2.
 To reduce noise this branch will be rebased in future.

 So at the moment I removed code that used to introduce initial post delay
 for non-ephemeral services. It was unclear how it should work and there
 was neither agreement upon delay value nor real security research. There
 should be a discussion about how it should implemented against the specs.

 For now it works this way (timeline of an onion service uploads):

 {{{
  ^^  ^^
  ||  ||
  |   +---(x)--+   +--(x)-+|
 [a]-[b]--[d]-[d]--> t
   |<--y-->|
   |
   +---[w]->


 ^ - upload
 a - initial upload (descriptor is dirty and never uploaded)
 b - unscheduled upload (descriptor got dirty, uploaded before)
   x - 'stabilizing' period = 3s
   y - 'unstable' period = 30s
   w - warning if descriptor has changed (d) less than y after
   last upload
 d - next scheduled upload (next_upload_time, 1h after last upload,
 may be rescheduled)
 }}}

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_information
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research,|  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201610, review-group-11 |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-

Comment (by twim):

 Replying to [comment:37 dgoulet]:
 > Ok so I can see how this is useful and plausibly works well. But my main
 concern here is that we are making that function _more_ complicated now
 with more if/else thus possible culprit for something that is very
 important to get right.
 >
 > We could maybe break it down more in more granular functions and improve
 testing drastically. Thoughts?

 I do agree that it would be great to have it simpler. atm I don't see any
 point where it could be broken down.
 Please leave your comments at
 https://gitlab.com/nogoegst/tor/merge_requests/1 if you have any
 ideas/confusions. Thanks!

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_information
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research,|  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201610, review-group-11 |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by dgoulet):

 * status:  needs_review => needs_information


Comment:

 Ok so I can see how this is useful and plausibly works well. But my main
 concern here is that we are making that function _more_ complicated now
 with more if/else thus possible culprit for something that is very
 important to get right.

 We could maybe break it down more in more granular functions and improve
 testing drastically. Thoughts?

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  assigned
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research,|  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201610, review-group-11 |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by nickm):

 * owner:   => twim
 * status:  needs_review => assigned


Comment:

 setting owner

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:  twim
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research,|  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201610, review-group-11 |
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by nickm):

 * status:  assigned => needs_review


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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, TorCoreTeam201610  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by twim):

 * status:  needs_revision => needs_review


Comment:

 I've squashed and fixed the patch up. Please see `ticket20082_030_01`
 branch at https://gitlab.com/nogoegst/tor.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, TorCoreTeam201610  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-

Comment (by twim):

 Replying to [comment:30 asn]:
 > My understanding is that the patc makes the default delay be 3s but we
 will have a torrc option to bump it up to 30s + random()?
 > I'm having trouble understanding the point of this torrc option? Who
 would enable it and for what reason? IMO, it's just going to go unused and
 contribute to our increasing torrc option bloat.

 Nope, please see changes file about how it works. `torrc` option is for
 hiding startup time for those who need it and is being discussed in
 #20262. There is not `torrc` option here.

 Plus see my previous comment.

 > I feel that there is no point in doing probabilistic delays here without
 a proper security analysis of what they offer, and I have not seen one of
 those yet. Just saying "it obfuscates startup time" is not a security
 analysis IMO. Who does it obfuscate it from, what attacks are prevented,
 and why did we choose that random value? Most importantly, _who_ should
 enable that torrc option?

 Again, there is no `torrc` option here. I have eliminated deterministic
 delay here. 3s is only for the case when networks fails and we have to
 reupload descriptor suddenly. Also, as dgoulet has mentioned, I've
 introduced small random delay in order to unlink on-disk onion services
 from each other. It's absolutely different delay (see above).

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, TorCoreTeam201610  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-

Comment (by twim):

 Replying to [comment:29 dgoulet]:
 > @twim, yeah you'll need a Gitlab account, sorry about that but it's
 worth it. If you had more commit, I can add them to that branch so we
 don't lose our discussion.

 Sure, I prefer to move review-specific code to something ephemeral to not
 litter trac.


 > Removing `proposal-needed?` as we don't define upload delays in the
 specification only time period HOWEVER I found this in rend-spec.txt:
 > {{{
 >When uploading descriptors, the hidden service needs to make sure
 that
 >descriptors for different clients are not uploaded at the same time
 (cf.
 >Section 1.1) which is also a limiting factor for the number of
 clients.
 > }}}
 >
 > We should make sure we actually follow this as this might be important?

 Sure, it's really important and somehow I forgot about it. I think there
 should be some __short__ random initial delay __only for on-disk
 services__ since they are being started at the same time (note that this
 code doesn't actually work now). I'll soon update my branch.
 The delay for hiding startup time has different purpose and should be
 treated separately (see #20262 and my branch `obfuscate-startup-time`).

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, TorCoreTeam201610  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-

Comment (by asn):

 Hello, I haven't had the time to review the patch yet.

 My understanding is that the patc makes the default delay be 3s but we
 will have a torrc option to bump it up to 30s + random()?

 I'm having trouble understanding the point of this torrc option? Who would
 enable it and for what reason? IMO, it's just going to go unused and
 contribute to our increasing torrc option bloat.

 I feel that there is no point in doing probabilistic delays here without a
 proper security analysis of what they offer, and I have not seen one of
 those yet. Just saying "it obfuscates startup time" is not a security
 analysis IMO. Who does it obfuscate it from, what attacks are prevented,
 and why did we choose that random value? Most importantly, _who_ should
 enable that torrc option?

 Till this security analysis actually arrives, I'm inclined to just change
 the default delay to constant 3s, and get done with it without extra torrc
 options. Please let me know if I'm too absolute.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, TorCoreTeam201610  |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by dgoulet):

 * keywords:  tor-hs, research, proposal-needed?, TorCoreTeam201610,
 030-proposed => tor-hs, research, TorCoreTeam201610


Comment:

 Thanks teor and twim! This required from me a bit more text and trac is
 the worst so I did a Gitlab merge request for code review here. See my
 comments there! Let's make the discussion happened there now which will
 make our life so much easier :).

 @twim, yeah you'll need a Gitlab account, sorry about that but it's worth
 it. If you had more commit, I can add them to that branch so we don't lose
 our discussion.

 https://gitlab.com/dgoulet/tor/merge_requests/12

 Removing `proposal-needed?` as we don't define upload delays in the
 specification only time period HOWEVER I found this in rend-spec.txt:
 {{{
When uploading descriptors, the hidden service needs to make sure that
descriptors for different clients are not uploaded at the same time
 (cf.
Section 1.1) which is also a limiting factor for the number of clients.
 }}}

 We should make sure we actually follow this as this might be important?

 Finally, to answer your question twim:
 > btw, can we actually get this in 029?

 Nope, no chance sorry, 029 is freezed and 030 alpha is coming around the
 corner.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, proposal-needed?,  |  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201610, 030-proposed|
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-

Comment (by twim):

 Replying to [comment:27 teor]:
 Thanks, reworded changes file. Also note that there is no initial post
 delay anymore. The `changes` file describes precisely what the code does.

 btw, can we actually get this in 029?

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Re: [tor-bugs] #20082 [Core Tor/Tor]: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services (was: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for ephemeral services)

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#20082: Lower initial descriptor upload delay for hidden services
-+-
 Reporter:  twim |  Owner:
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  Medium   |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.0.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  tor-hs, research, proposal-needed?,  |  Actual Points:
  TorCoreTeam201610, 030-proposed|
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:  teor |Sponsor:
 |  SponsorR-can
-+-
Changes (by teor):

 * reviewer:   => teor
 * milestone:  Tor: 0.2.??? => Tor: 0.3.0.x-final


Comment:

 Replying to [comment:26 twim]:
 > Replying to [comment:25 teor]:
 >
 > > Removed references to rend_service_reveal_startup_time():
 > > * there are references in the comments as well. grep is your friend.
 > > Add REND_DIRTY_DESC_STABILIZING_PERIOD_TESTING
 > > * The logic here is inverted: the testing period needs to be used when
 TestingTorNetwork is 1.
 >
 > Thanks, good catches! Fixed.
 >
 > > In future, please add a short message to the commit saying what's
 changed.
 > > (These ones look like they will squash nicely into one commit, so no
 need to fix them.)
 > These ones are supposed to be squashed. There is no need to store thashy
 commits in `master`. ;)

 These all look good.

 > > This also needs a changes file. See tor/changes/ for examples, or read
 doc/HACKING/CodingStandards.md
 > Yeap, added changes file. As always, not sure about 'feature on ...'
 string.

 We don't use "feature on", only "bugfix on". And the changes file is
 usually shorter.

 Here's what I suggest we write for the changes file - they can be hard to
 get right:
 {{{
 o Minor features (onion services):
   - Reduce onion service initial descriptor upload delay from 30s to 3s.
 If descriptor changes too soon after this (< 30s), log a warning about
 unreliable network connections. Closes ticket 20082.
 o Minor bugfixes (onion services):
   - Remove code that claimed to introduce an initial descriptor upload
 delay,
 but never actually worked. Closes ticket 12500, bugfix on
 tor-0.0.9pre6.
 }}}

 Here are the commands I used to find which release the bug was introduced
 in:
 {{{
 git blame src/or/rendservice.c
 (look at the commits that changed the function)
 git show 4b76fe803
 git describe --contains 4b76fe8
 }}}

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