Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

So, to come back to my original (possibly misunderstood) question, which I will try to clarify: When compiling a piece of software from source, can the configure script tell whether or not I have systemd installed on my machine, without me having to install a separate widget to tell me

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Well, I didn't say 'Debian package' or 'binary package'. If I download the git repository of source code for an application and compile/install it myself, couldn't that also be considered a 'package' of software? If not, then perhaps I used the term 'package' in an unusual way, which may

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

I've read back through the comments here, and it seems like we have actually been talking about two completely different things. That might be where the confusion is arising ;)

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

> No, when you're referring to what Debian package require in order to be installed, you're talking about packages. Compiling is not even involved in that process. When did I mention Debian packages? I have only ever been talking here about compilation of software from source. I repeat, I

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Isn't that how a lot of people look at the free software community though, to be fair?

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

> I'm not talking about package/distro maintainers, I'm talking about the process of compiling software in general. No, when you're referring to what Debian package require in order to be installed, you're talking about packages. Compiling is not even involved in that process. > Is not

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Yes, I understand that, but you don't seem to be addressing my point. I'm not talking about package/distro maintainers, I'm talking about the process of compiling software in general. E.g. if I was to download a source package and compile/install it myself on my machine. Is not the whole

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

> but according to this Wikipedia article, 'many programming languages support conditional compilation', which I assume would allow them to conditionally include libraries, depending on what sort of system they are being compiled on/for. Please do not make assumptions about how things

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

I sometimes think the "d" must stand for "drama".

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Well, my previous post was a bit 'tongue-in-cheek' ;-) I have to admit that I'm not exactly the world's most experienced programmer, but according to this Wikipedia article, 'many programming languages support conditional compilation', which I assume would allow them to conditionally

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

My biggest problem with systemd is that they skipped systems A, B and C .. >:(

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

That's about what I did with Ubuntu 16.04 but there were more subtle problems. I couldn't have gotten Icecat on at all if I hadn't created my profile on a different computer and done a lot of stuff Ubuntu's target users shouldn't have to do. My needs are modest. I'm still on Trisquel 7

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

PenGNUin, I bumbled across this for you while I was looking for memes: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5n069y/why_do_people_not_like_systemd/ I particularly liked the third post down, which listed technical, political, and personal reasons why init systems have become such a

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Yup. Memes rule. Now we have systemd porn too: "Savaged by Systemd [Privacy Badger has replaced this FacebookLike button.] an Erotic Unix Encounter Authored by Michael Warren Lucas Not your normal Friday night in the computer room. Not a normal night anywhere. Terry is the archetypal

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

> and yes it would and does matter if every system depended on systemd because, that wouldn't be freedom. You have the most bizarre definition of "freedom" imaginable. But even with that definition, no one is forcing you to use systemd. If you hate systemd so much, there are tons of old

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

They were probably bribed to be honest.

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

You and magic banana seem to be clueless. You think you know everything but you really don't. even linus the linux kernel creator said the design scope was insane. and yes it would and does matter if every system depended on systemd because, that wouldn't be freedom. Lock-ins are not

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Well, I don't know why when I tried even in devuan mind you removing libsystemd0 threatened to remove literally everything. same for debian... and yes, libsystemd0 is even worse than systemd itself in a sense... It is possible things have changed since I used debian last, and heard about

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

IIRC here's my attempt at a DIY-fully-free Manjaro. Would've been a few years back though so might not be 100% accurate: 1) Manjaro 2) I wanted linux-libre. I guess I could from time to time activate Parabola's repos to take the kernel from there, then disable the repos again before

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

> Ubuntu wasn't intending to, but when debian did... well you get the idea. Canonical voluntarily chose to abandon Upstart (its own new init project) when Debian chose systemd over it. They were never forced to use systemd; they just decide (correctly, in my opinion) that the effort of

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Those two alternatives sound good. Openrc works well for me.

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Well, have you ever installed debian 8 or later? because, most core packages require systemd. in fact there is a push to make everything in debian require systemd from now on. Dunno why... Arch by the way also requires systemd. Fedora is a given. Ubuntu wasn't intending to, but when debian

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

For those wanting to see criticisms of the "Unix philosophy", see ... and if they refer to "Lisp Machines", and if you don't know what it is, see . Hint: It's *not* a

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Thank you. I know that some of us are using Debian or Devuan with just the main repository. I didn't have much luck with my own DIY free-as-I-can-make-it Ubuntu 16.04, but I have read other posters talk about how they do it here. Manjaro is "E-Z Arch" to the best of my knowledge. I

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Nah, it may just be that I'm defensive. ;) Enjoy Slackware. I absolutely loved my time there but I'm at a different stage of life now and enjoying my 32 bit machines way too much to retire ALL of them as museum pieces. I'm not going to engage in any debate about systemd here. It's nice to

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

“Hyperbola is a Free Software and Free Culture project aiming to provide a fully free as in freedom GNU/Linux distribution called Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre. It is based on the packages of the Arch GNU/Linux plus security and stability patches of Debian GNU/Linux, with packages optimized

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

AFAIK, Manjaro is not free enough to qualify for FSF endorsement. And according to DistroWatch, it's not systemd-free either. I'm not sure whether to trust that claim, however, since DistroWatch also claims that Linux Mint is systemd-free, which makes no sense since Ubuntu already uses

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Yeah I just thought that of the few, some of which somewhat obscure distros you remember has non-Systemd inits it would be strange that one of the even fewer fully-free ones that does do that would be forgotten (now that I've come to think of it I don't recall Dragora using systemd either)

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Isn't this whole "Unix Philosophy" more of a relic from a time when procedural programming was all that we had? With the merits of object oriented programming, it is possible for a program to consist of many loosely coupled components that to mainly one job and do it right, without breaking

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

It's pretty obvious and simple why it is the case. In most languages I'm aware of, you can't easily (if at all) conditionally include libraries. You have to include the library and depend on that. So systemd offers a way to check how much of systemd is actually installed in a part of its

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

It was Calmstorm that suggested above that there were unnecessary dependencies: > seriously, why should every package even ones that don't require it be dependent on systemd... I then said, *if* that is the case, then it is bad and shouldn't be happening. I have no idea what specific

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

So, for those that don't like/want systemd, what are the viable alternatives? Seems like Upstart isn't being maintained any more, right?

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

> So where are the horror stories? Have one -> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 Pottering, da man. He knows everything there is to know in the entire universe. You can see it clearly. He also acts like a hysterical grandma overdosed on MDMA, but then again that's because he

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

> A part of systemd, which is very small, has to be included so a program can determine whether or not systemd is actually available. So, you have to have systemd, before you can determine whether or not you have systemd? That sounds somewhat circular to me .. (good trick they pulled

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

A part of systemd, which is very small, has to be included so a program can determine whether or not systemd is actually available. That's all. It's needed for a program to optionally depend on systemd rather than forcefully depend on systemd or having to build separate versions with and

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

On 09/13/2017 09:15 AM, you wrote: > > Oh that, and Parabola can also be run without Systemd AFAIK (Arch can, > which in turn is why Manjaro can as well). Yes, and I also forgot Hyperbola but hopefully I have not forgotten that I don't know everything there is to know about everything and that

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

"Removing systemd is beyond the scope of the Trisquel project" Not what I'm asking at all though. I am on Slackware, and I guess I do enjoy the lack of Systemd, but the reason for me being here is unrelated to Systemd :) If things happen that make me want to move to e.g. post-Upstart

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

"Likewise, I can't think of anything people complain about in systemd that there is any legitimate ethical basis to be upset about." Me neither, in many ways, I can understand that a lot of people don't like systemd but yeah, it's free, and I'm not quite of the knowledge to decide it's

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

I agree that packages shouldn't have unnecessary dependencies - that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of free software. But, why would package developers include a dependency on systemd, if it's not required? Just because they're fanboys of it? Seems to me that this software that's

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

I think the point is that the criticisms of systemd are all technically minded. For example, yeah, you could say that you think having an "X" to close the window on the top-right instead of the top-left is morally wrong because it "goes against the philosophy" of some OS you're used to, but

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Systemd is, above all, one of those extremely controversial subjects like politics and infant feeding methods, that people are going to have strong opinions about. It's best not to bring it up unless you are genuinely interested in a quick survey of people's opinions, as th OP has here, or maybe

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

"there should be practical consequences for that supposed philosophical wrongdoing. So where are the horror stories? Why aren't distros fleeing from it? In fact it not only seems to work perfectly well, but outperform legacy software such as with boot times, and distros are flocking to it"

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Thanks for those links. I don't totally understand the details of this one https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=761658 but sending any sort of data to Google without informing the user does seem troubling. I hope such behavior isn't something that will end up in a libre distro.

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

https://systemd-free.org/ http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

The lock-in and the complex code is my problem with it. Because that makes bugs way too hard to remove. The lock-in though REALLY PISSES ME OFF! seriously, why should every package even ones that don't require it be dependent on systemd... that feels like embedding malware into the

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

Well, excluding the euphoric sensation one gets from hating the status quo (which may very well be a popular cause of SystemD hatred...), the following seem to be the major issues: 1. As you've already mentioned, it doesn't follow the Unix philosophy. A side-effect of this is that its

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

I don't really have a strong view on systemd myself. Tbh, I probably don't understand enough of what it does and how it differs from the alternatives to be able to judge its merits. From what I've read, the thing that concerns me the most is the potential 'lock-in' if it becomes a

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

According to hyperbola gnu/linux there are some issues with systemd https://www.hyperbola.info/news/end-of-systemd-support/ I am just a regular user and I don't have a founded opinion about it.

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

My view is, if it's pure enough for rms (since he accepts Trisquel and other systemd-using OS's), it's pure enough for anybody. As far as anything other than freedom is concerned, if systemd is inappropriately ambitious, there should be practical consequences for that supposed

Re: [Trisquel-users] About systemd

I, a userro of gnu/systemd or gnu + systemd as I've recently taken to calling it will try to illustrate it with a picture ->

[Trisquel-users] About systemd

Hello everyone, excuse the potentially stupid question: I've been reading about systemd lately and was wondering what exactly is the main issue that some people seem to have with it. My understanding so far is that it violates the Unix principle of doing one thing and doing it right and