Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
RE Eclipse Just about every programmer i know has eclipse installed. Just about every .net programmer i know uses VS for their development Just about every Java programmer i know use IntelJ IDEA for their development Just about every php programmer i lknow uses a php specific ide - there are numerous In fact i don't know of any programmer who uses eclipse as their main dev environment. Sure they all have it installed, and use it occasionally if they want to delve into some language or something that they don't normally use, but they all feel it tries to cater for everybody, but in so doing ends up being a horrible cludge and nowhere near as effective as the top domain specific ide's I don't think Brian, or anyone, is suggesting we use AE/ED, but there should be some great plugins into some other IDE's out there - or even a better domain specific IDE not based on eclipse. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch Sent: 14 July 2011 23:11 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? Hi Brian: Microsoft now has a plug-in for Eclipse see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg413285.aspx. Eclipse just released version 3.7 around June 22nd and they have had a million plus downloads. They released 62 projects with over 46 million lines of code see http://www.eclipse.org/org/press-release/20110622indigo.php. Eclipse is one of the premier IDE's out in the world. Do want to teach people to use ED/AE to create files, edit dictionaries, and edit code all in that pretty wrapper called Telnet? Or do you want to show them a MS based editor that only does that? Sorry, your free product does not cut the mustard here. We need to teach the young people coming into U2 world to use the finest tool that allows continuous compiling, templates, outlines, bookmarks, version control, copying and pasting data, listing files, and searching all within a single IDE to name just a few functions. Whether the Eclipse IDE is from U2logic or Rocket Software there is no other tools on the market that can compare feature to feature. We know you can do all of the above with wrappers, amazing VOC items, and scripts, but we must have time warped back to 1990's because we don't really need to explain these to a newbie. Those newbie's think we are just a bunch of old men and old women. We know we are the best so lets look like with our state of the art tools. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Version control for the rest of us using Eclipse And get rid of Eclipse. It's horrible. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3764 - Release Date: 07/14/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
It's the least worst response to a bad situation - not having business logic close to the database. It's more to test, develop, deploy and change control. And to be successful it still needs to call stored procedures at the back end.And to be successful it still needs to call stored procedures at the back end. Really? I've worked on lots of successful products that didn't use stored procedures at the back end. Again, it doesn't matter where the code is *physically*. What is this close to the database catch phrase *really* mean anyway? Are you talking about speed? I have to image you see some benefit, because IMHO you're giving up a lot of flexibility by writing your business rules in stored procedure languages like UniBasic and TSQL. I'd also argue that having code live with the database can make the application as a whole far less portable as you scatter code around. More moving parts is generally a bad thing. Yes, you should tier your code and keep your business logic separate from your presentation layer, but that doesn't mean it literally needs to be in a stored procedure. Look at the MVC pattern in Rails or ASP.NET MVC, for instance. In those frameworks, all of the business logic lives in model classes in the main application, not the database. It works really well -- if it didn't, people would break that mold and start putting code in sprocs. -Rob On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk wrote: I've missed this discussion because I've been busy designing a website and app for a client. This being the real world, the site will eventually - of course - be delivered using SQL Server and C#, with the front end using AJAX calls to JSON services delivered through WCF. Which will no doubt take an age to develop, test, deploy and then reconfigure all over all again. So before getting to that stage, I've written a fully functioning prototype. Which is - of course - written in UniVerse and mvScript. Which means I've developed it all front to back in a few hours and it's robust and flexible enough that I can work through it sitting with the clients tomorrow and make changes in near real time as they come up with ideas. Which tells the story, in one, of what I do and don't like about U2. As to some of the other points: 1. Someone mentioned SQL Server and the GUI word again. Please ... SQL Server has no UI. If you're coding a UI for SQL server you use C#. If you're coding a UI for U2 you can use C#. If you're coding business rules for SQL Server you can use SQL Manager. If you're coding business rules for U2 you can use BDT or mvDeveloper. It's a red herring. 2. The other thread has been talking about locking. If there's one reason to use U2 over all else, it's pessimistic locking. The SQL world is full of script kiddies and wizard users who *think* they know SQL and don't have the first idea about concurrency, locking and merging. 3. Yes, we now have CLR in SQL server, but how many SQL developers are actually using it? The initial push to add it was a horrible cludge and put off many of those who might have experimented, and for the rest of the community it's too alien. I think we'll see TSQL as the main language for back end work for a long, long time - and that doesn't begin to measure up to UniBasic. (but read on before you jump on this...) 4. Having middle tier logic may be the norm but that does not mean it a good idea. It's the least worst response to a bad situation - not having business logic close to the database. It's more to test, develop, deploy and change control. And to be successful it still needs to call stored procedures at the back end. 5. But if you really want a middle tier, you can still add one and use C# and it's 'proper libraries' with U2. If you really, really want. 6. And either way, not having to stare at query optimizer output is a very good reason to like U2. BUT That doesn't mean U2 can't be improved by taking on some of the better features of the outside world. The indexing is still very primitive, the SQL support is weak, and it would be great to have some other languages built into the database runtime. Even java - shudder - would be better than nothing, and would provide those 'missing' OO and library features that people think they want. Add OpenQM's version of objects into Basic while you're at it and make the Basic on the two products more similar. It's just a pain having to use two sets of syntax: Rocket could easily create a superset on both. Nowadays you can at least integrate the query and Basic language by using SQLExecute() function calls to @HSTMT - something that was always missing from the original Pick model. But it's not obvious and doesn't work from phantoms. For the client side, we need javascript bindings made easy - especially to JSON - as that is the most important language for new developers today. Look at all the new development platforms
Re: [U2] JSON
The reason for nesting them is that there maybe subvalues or text marks or item marks. That way the syntax of using them does not have to change in JavaScript except to add another array position. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Makers of the 3 click resizer ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] JSON
George,
Individual MV's are pretty simple, but associated MV's can get interesting:
{
idCode: 178,
cusName: U2Logic,
contacts: [
{
name: David Aitken,
cellPhone: 303-555-1234
},
{
name: Doug Averch,
cellPhone: 303-555-6728
},
{
name: Carmen Electra,
cellPhone: 303-555-7726
}
]
}
rex
___
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Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
Bill But, obviously, not technology to a technologist! :-) It was a hard lesson to learn. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
From: Steve Romanow When i look at an eclipse application I see 80% ui that is not relevant to the task at hand. I agree that it and most every app implemented with it are trash. I agree with the first sentence that Eclipse is bloated, but most every app implemented with it are trash ?? That's unreasonable, as the IDE doesn't relate to the skills of the developer, nor the end-product, unless the IDE inherently precludes specific language/framework features from being used. Miscellaneous: Eclipse is now the recommended platform for Android apps and thus has attracted a new following. Personally I use NetBeans for both Java and PHP simply because it's convenient (and VS for .NET). It would be nice if we had more options for MV-oriented development using mainstream tools. There aren't enough companies building in such integration, and not enough adoption in this market to make it worth it for more companies to step up to the challenge. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote: From: Steve Romanow When i look at an eclipse application I see 80% ui that is not relevant to the task at hand. I agree that it and most every app implemented with it are trash. I agree with the first sentence that Eclipse is bloated, but most every app implemented with it are trash ?? That's unreasonable, as the IDE doesn't relate to the skills of the developer, nor the end-product, unless the IDE inherently precludes specific language/framework features from being used. Miscellaneous: Eclipse is now the recommended platform for Android apps and thus has attracted a new following. Personally I use NetBeans for both Java and PHP simply because it's convenient (and VS for .NET). It would be nice if we had more options for MV-oriented development using mainstream tools. There aren't enough companies building in such integration, and not enough adoption in this market to make it worth it for more companies to step up to the challenge. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users That was a trollish unreasonable statement. I apologize. I think a more appropriate statement would be: overwhelmed by eclipses gargantuan size, and underwhelmed by the applications presented. Does it bother anyone that all of the Rocket provided eclipse apps come with their own static copy of eclipse? I mean the editor in BDT, is it that great of an editor, besides being graphical and has syntax hilighting? Real IDE's are necessary for some projects like java and (also java, Droid) development since it helps with packaging and whatnot. That really doesnt seem necessary for an mv app. I'll stick to my old school vim, mercurial, and ssh. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] LIST TO DELIM on Windows
Of course, Wally is correct and I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement. Shame on me! :-( Bill Original Message Subject:RE: LIST TO DELIM on Windows Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:59:50 + From: Wally Terhune wterh...@rocketsoftware.com To: Bill Haskett wphask...@advantos.net I’m pretty buried in other stuff at the moment. It would be helpful if you created a small account and added the file with the 1 record, the dict, the test BP. Nothing obvious jumps out at me. I was mostly reacting to the blanket statement about ‘would be nice if TO DELIM worked’ As you have indicated -- it does work just fine for most queries. */Wally Terhune/* *U2 Support Architect* *Rocket Software* 4600 South Ulster Street, Suite 1100 · Denver, CO 80237 · USA Tel: +1.720.475.8055 Email: wterh...@rs.com mailto:wterh...@rs.com Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 http://www.rocketsoftware.com/u2 [snipped] ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
Re your Miscellaneous - eclipse may well be the recommended and i followed that course last year when i started droid apps, but intelij IDEA, the leading java ide, now does android out of the box, i have switched, and am much happier :) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 15 July 2011 19:29 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ? From: Steve Romanow When i look at an eclipse application I see 80% ui that is not relevant to the task at hand. I agree that it and most every app implemented with it are trash. I agree with the first sentence that Eclipse is bloated, but most every app implemented with it are trash ?? That's unreasonable, as the IDE doesn't relate to the skills of the developer, nor the end-product, unless the IDE inherently precludes specific language/framework features from being used. Miscellaneous: Eclipse is now the recommended platform for Android apps and thus has attracted a new following. Personally I use NetBeans for both Java and PHP simply because it's convenient (and VS for .NET). It would be nice if we had more options for MV-oriented development using mainstream tools. There aren't enough companies building in such integration, and not enough adoption in this market to make it worth it for more companies to step up to the challenge. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3766 - Release Date: 07/15/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
Neat. They have a community edition too. Their charm product has a good rep. On Jul 15, 2011 4:24 PM, Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com wrote: ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] IDEs
From: Steve Romanow Real IDE's are necessary for some projects like java and (also java, Droid) development since it helps with packaging and whatnot. That really doesnt seem necessary for an mv app. I'll stick to my old school vim, mercurial, and ssh. I remember Linux guys saying the same thing about 12 years ago, but these days they're using IDEs with build and version control, code completion, inline help, refactoring, and everything else expected in modern development. Technically, no IDE is necessary for any kind of development, whether Java, .NET, or MV. We can use NotePad and the command-line for any of them. But an IDE is helpful - which is why companies create and charge for them. If you look at Visual Studio, it has an integrated database explorer where you specify a connection string and it renders the database in a tree along with stored procedures and all associated metadata. That integration allows the developer to open and modify data, schema, code in one place, and to drag n drop data into forms for instant control binding. mv.NET does something like this within VS but that component is more of an add-in than true integration. (Disclaimer, Nebula RD is a Distributor for mv.NET.) Some months ago I wrote a database explorer provider for VS so that I can see my MV environments in that explorer, as first-class citizens right along with SQL Server and Oracle. I didn't publish anything about this because it wasn't suitable for publication and I didn't port it to VS2010, but maybe one of these days... The point here is that other environments have IDE integration because there is perceived value - a .NET developer would never go to NotePad after using Visual Studio, and Java developers wouldn't go back to vi either. I think MV people don't perceive value in MV/IDE integration, in large part as a self defense mechanism because we don't have the tools. But I think when given the opportunity, people would jump to true integration rather than having to manually setup a VCS here, with schema maintenance done in a separate SSH window there, and help from the PDF over there. BTW, if you've ever seen mvToolbox (no affiliation) you'd get an idea of what a REAL IDE for MV can be like. That thing has hundreds of features that every MV developer can use. It's simply amazing. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] JSON
And those kinds of relationships (as Rex pointed out) can be a beautiful thing. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Why Pick U2?
Thanks for the reply Rob, As to cherry picking, I wasn't calling out anyone in particular, but the thread in general. I believe some of our disagreement involves around the statement MongoDB, which falls into the same class of database as U2.: MongoDB is *not* an enterprise class database. As per Charles Shaffer post, would you honestly use MongoDB for his system? I wouldn't. You would either go with a major SQL DB or an MVDB (such as a U2 system). As I and others have noted, U2 gives you a unique value proposition in that it generally has faster change turn-around, cheaper associated costs and stability of platform (it will still be fine in 20 years without major architectural changes). MongoDB just doesn't fit into this realm. It isn't enterprise class; it doesn't have the maturity to provide the guarantees needed in serious enterprise systems, even if only for the mere fact it hasn't been around long enough to prove it. As to FourSquare, please re-note the link to FS's 11 hour outage caused by MongoDB as an actual example. Can you imagine Bank of America having an 11 hour outage on all money transactions and how much money/customers they would lose? People have been conditioned to accept website outages from time to time. No-one is going to die because FS is down for a day. Other things in life are not forgiven/forgotten so easily. Emergency systems run on U2. I would consider myself insanely negligent if I convinced those emergency services to drop U2 and replace it with an immature (even if exciting) database such as MongoDB. I cannot really comment on your issues with UniData, not knowing when or what they were. We ran UD at a Bank and out of our 20+ systems (most on MS SQL) it was by far the most stable with the least down time. It had to be, lest it put us out of business. U2 does not (and cannot) target EVERY market out there. Comparing it to other databases outside of the its core markets and saying MongoDB destroys U2 in every single aspect. And it's free (http://goo.gl/7O5Hm) is a catchy, yet ultimately flawed statement. I don't think anyone would argue that 'Big Blue' and 'Agile' are the wine and cheese combination of the tech world. Please remember that U2 is now Rocket U2, not IBM U2. Rocket Software is an amazingly agile company in comparison. How long did it take them to release DataVu? Also remember that in the company scale of time U2 hasn't been with Rocket for that long. Take into account ramp up time for a new working environment, complete office move, rebranding of all products and documentation when determining how sluggish U2 is. Expect more developments to come out quicker. There are some exciting changes coming down the pipes that will address some of the issues people have raised in this thread. UniObjects (COM) is an ancient interface. Don't forgot that there is now EDA, a SOAP-based web-service provider and a RESTful web-service provider (in beta). Better resources: more is coming. U2DevZone is up, it is now open (no sign in required anymore) with articles, video tutorials and podcasts. You can take this as a solid indication that the folks here are committed to providing material that makes U2 a more attractive option. Yes, times are interesting in the database world right now. There has not been this much attention and diversity for as long as I can remember. I'd love to see you (and everyone else) at U2U next year, meet some of management engineering and see what is happening in the U2/MV world and maybe even provide some insight into what keeps you interested in the MV world and what doesn't. Obviously there is something in there that interests your technical mind for you still to be posting on this list. :) Cheers, Dan PS: Thanks also to all those that sent direct replies to me. If I haven't got back to you yet, I will endeavor to do so next week. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:41 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2? Hey Dan, Great response! Thanks for chiming in. Let me address some of your points. Cherry-picking individual features from one database to compare them, then cherry-picking from completely different database when counter-points are raised is not exactly a technically sound (or fair) way to do comparisons. You're certainly right, but that's not I'm doing. I believe the only direct feature comparison I made was to MongoDB, which falls into the same class of database as U2. Besides, the discussion isn't purely about technical capabilities (though they certainly matter and U2 has been sluggish with new feature development) as much as it is about the overall value proposition. I'm not trying to be a troll, or incite the folks that love U2, or call out Rocket. As a long-time U2 user, I'm simply making an honest and blunt statement
