Re: [U2] .NET Developer
Allen wrote: Other onsite and offsite clients that didn't want to spend the time or just blurted out incorrect answers to end the questioning received finished projects that matched the quality of their answers and the quantity of their time invested. Hmmm, I dunno if this is good or bad in the eyes of the masses, but I won't deliver a finished product where there isn't a reasonably clear line from here to there. I'm not saying I'm going to hold out for every i to be dotted on a signed spec. I'm saying if there are obvious holes in the request, where we have a strong feeling that the project is going to end with a perception of failure, I personally prefer to withdraw from starting down the path that will lead to that failure, and possibly the blame for it. I've had to learn this the hard way, after eagerly trying (but failing) to please a few clients who couldn't express what they wanted, but they expected me to deliver 'it' anyway. I still get lots of inquiries like I want a website, how much will 'it' cost? Well, we can't estimate 'it' and we can't code 'it' until we know what 'it' is. I won't subscribe to the GIGO principle of development where I'll accept garbage for a spec, knowing that they're going to get garbage at the end of the project. No one is happy with that sort of solution. I provide two services - the first is to help determine what is needed, and the second is to create it. While the first part often isn't required, unfortunately some clients who need it don't have the patience for it. But I consider it my job to ask the questions that should lead to success. When I get vague specs, I don't deliver vague results. I tell my clients that the more time I need to spend on the clock asking questions, the less time I'm spending in code. I'll do what's required to get them where they want to go but we need to work out if I should be asking the questions or if they can get someone who can quickly provide the required specs and data. This is where a programmer becomes a consultant, and in most cases clients need and appreciate someone who can ask the right questions and get the right answers - more than they need or appreciate someone who just cranks out code. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
I agree Personally I use a network of experienced well known developers in my businesses, it allows me to concentrate on other tasks rather than specifying to the letter how to do things, these guys work from home and we meet up maybe once a month and are constant communication via skype, on liners generally do the job for them in terms of spec etc (well maybe not quite that but certainly not full blown 100 page documents). One thing i am worried about is using an unknown quantity remotely (the risk seems less if they are in your office for some reason ). I have used remote workforces in previous jobs where we basically had a team of ba's writing specs for 6 months for the team of programmers in india to then take 6 months to write, I am sure me and my team of experts could do that end to end in 5 months, but then again that is not scalable as there are only so many know quantity experts but any number of external resources. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Allen E. Elwood Sent: 11 September 2009 02:06 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer Allen steps up to the soapbox As someone that's done *quite a bit* of both the remote programmer gig (11 years) as well as on site (23 years), I think it's very interesting that people will balk at spending 1 to 2 hours for a kickoff meeting with a programmer on the speaker phone or even skype video, while they think *nothing* of spending that much time face to face. Even half an hour a day over skype or phone *during the thickest part* of working out a HUGE project seems excessive to some, while the same people will spend that much time *or more* next to the coffee maker just blabbing about the latest snooze topics. In my experience, it's the NOT the distance - it's the amount of TIME AND ATTENTION that one spends tending to the questions of the programmer that makes or breaks projects and deadlines. It's the quality of the thought that goes into the words that are exchanged that makes the difference. I've had onsite and offsite clients that understood this and they received quality work on time!!! Other onsite and offsite clients that didn't want to spend the time or just blurted out incorrect answers to end the questioning received finished projects that matched the quality of their answers and the quantity of their time invested. As Rodney Dangerfield once said I don't get no respect and this perhaps could be the slogan of the 'work from home' programmers of the world. I suspect that as monstrously large and cheap paper thin monitors you can hang on the wall like a piece of paper become the norm and bandwidth reaches the trillion bits per second range, that people will ***still*** say they prefer face to face because they can't *smell* the person as well over *UBER HD* skype of the future ;-) Allen steps off the virtual soapbox Btw, the paper thin flexable plastic monitors exist but they're still working the kinks out of mass production. Coming soon to a wall near you... Allen *currently doin' the on site gig in a tiny smelly cube* Elwood -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org]on Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 8:47 AM To: U2 Mail List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer I spoke with Bob Rasmussen a few months ago over Skype and he had a camera on his computer. A bit Max Headroom but face-to-face. :-) Bill P.S. If you're moving software to the web, or not, you might check with Bob. Print Wizard is pretty cool and well supported...and the price is right! Symeon Breen said the following on 9/10/2009 12:32 AM: Its an interesting one - i still have found it very difficult without a real heap of specification work to not have a face to face with contractors... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 09 September 2009 16:58 To: U2 Mail List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 9/9/2009 6:54 AM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Sorry Symeon... west coast - USA. But I've worked with a number of consultants from the east coast of the US to the British Isles to the Balkan states to India to Australia to Hawaii. I've found the time zone is much less of an issue than quality of the consultant. I've been told there are millions of .NET developers but have found very few qualified to work on business applications. Bill Symeon Breen said the following on 9/9/2009 2:08 AM: Sorry Bill - what country are you in ? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
'plain please then what I did wrong here then: Me Did you test it? Them Yes we tested it, please install Four weeks later: Them Hey the commissions aren't comming out for RMA returns Me I thought you said you didn't want RMA returns customized because you didn't do those? Them We did them manually. We just started doing them 2 weeks ago This continued for 6 more applications they SPECIFICALLY asked to NOT CUSTOMIZE because they didn't want to spend the money. Then I had to create a commissions routine that would go backwards through time to re-do the commissions and come up with a delta. Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote: Allen wrote: Other onsite and offsite clients that didn't want to spend the time or just blurted out incorrect answers to end the questioning received finished projects that matched the quality of their answers and the quantity of their time invested. Hmmm, I dunno if this is good or bad in the eyes of the masses, but I won't deliver a finished product where there isn't a reasonably clear line from here to there. I'm not saying I'm going to hold out for every i to be dotted on a signed spec. I'm saying if there are obvious holes in the request, where we have a strong feeling that the project is going to end with a perception of failure, I personally prefer to withdraw from starting down the path that will lead to that failure, and possibly the blame for it. I've had to learn this the hard way, after eagerly trying (but failing) to please a few clients who couldn't express what they wanted, but they expected me to deliver 'it' anyway. I still get lots of inquiries like I want a website, how much will 'it' cost? Well, we can't estimate 'it' and we can't code 'it' until we know what 'it' is. I won't subscribe to the GIGO principle of development where I'll accept garbage for a spec, knowing that they're going to get garbage at the end of the project. No one is happy with that sort of solution. I provide two services - the first is to help determine what is needed, and the second is to create it. While the first part often isn't required, unfortunately some clients who need it don't have the patience for it. But I consider it my job to ask the questions that should lead to success. When I get vague specs, I don't deliver vague results. I tell my clients that the more time I need to spend on the clock asking questions, the less time I'm spending in code. I'll do what's required to get them where they want to go but we need to work out if I should be asking the questions or if they can get someone who can quickly provide the required specs and data. This is where a programmer becomes a consultant, and in most cases clients need and appreciate someone who can ask the right questions and get the right answers - more than they need or appreciate someone who just cranks out code. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
'plain please then what I did wrong here then: Basic error: you forgot to translate from client-speak. When a client says 'yes' they mean 'mostly'. When a client says 'no' they mean 'not usually/yet'. When a client says 'always' they mean 'sometimes'. When a client says 'never' they mean 'until..' Like We never have option margins in currencies other that the option currency means we forgot about this one guy who we always margin in USD regardless and he's our biggest client and We never manufacture taller than 4 metres because our build bays won't take it means except for that lot we sent off to Australia as kits and We never charge below cost means until we really want that leader.. Simple :) Brian 'always ready for remote working'.. On 11 September 2009 at 16:03 aelw...@socal.rr.com wrote: Me Did you test it? Them Yes we tested it, please install Four weeks later: Them Hey the commissions aren't comming out for RMA returns Me I thought you said you didn't want RMA returns customized because you didn't do those? Them We did them manually. We just started doing them 2 weeks ago This continued for 6 more applications they SPECIFICALLY asked to NOT CUSTOMIZE because they didn't want to spend the money. Then I had to create a commissions routine that would go backwards through time to re-do the commissions and come up with a delta. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
LOL! How twu how twu I had sign offs from the head of sales, the head of accounting, the head of operations, the accounting/programmer liaison and it lasted all of three weeks. Oh, btw, each of the additional 5 applications that eventually needed to be ported over to the new commissions scheme were all brought up individually *months* later. So they didn't just screw up once, but 7 times. Now, don't get me wrong, I love clients. I've even had one extremely nice Czechoslovakian woman whose English was so bad that we had to communicate with PICTURES. And the funny thing is that went off without a hitch What I loved once was a client that refused to pay me for fixing an application because It works now Think about that ONE! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org]on Behalf Of br...@brianleach.co.uk Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 7:23 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer 'plain please then what I did wrong here then: Basic error: you forgot to translate from client-speak. When a client says 'yes' they mean 'mostly'. When a client says 'no' they mean 'not usually/yet'. When a client says 'always' they mean 'sometimes'. When a client says 'never' they mean 'until..' Like We never have option margins in currencies other that the option currency means we forgot about this one guy who we always margin in USD regardless and he's our biggest client and We never manufacture taller than 4 metres because our build bays won't take it means except for that lot we sent off to Australia as kits and We never charge below cost means until we really want that leader.. Simple :) Brian 'always ready for remote working'.. On 11 September 2009 at 16:03 aelw...@socal.rr.com wrote: Me Did you test it? Them Yes we tested it, please install Four weeks later: Them Hey the commissions aren't comming out for RMA returns Me I thought you said you didn't want RMA returns customized because you didn't do those? Them We did them manually. We just started doing them 2 weeks ago This continued for 6 more applications they SPECIFICALLY asked to NOT CUSTOMIZE because they didn't want to spend the money. Then I had to create a commissions routine that would go backwards through time to re-do the commissions and come up with a delta. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
Its an interesting one - i still have found it very difficult without a real heap of specification work to not have a face to face with contractors... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 09 September 2009 16:58 To: U2 Mail List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 9/9/2009 6:54 AM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Sorry Symeon... west coast - USA. But I've worked with a number of consultants from the east coast of the US to the British Isles to the Balkan states to India to Australia to Hawaii. I've found the time zone is much less of an issue than quality of the consultant. I've been told there are millions of .NET developers but have found very few qualified to work on business applications. Bill Symeon Breen said the following on 9/9/2009 2:08 AM: Sorry Bill - what country are you in ? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 08 September 2009 18:30 To: U2 Mail List Subject: [U2] .NET Developer I thought I'd let the list know that I've been using a .NET programmer to help with one of our applications. We use mv.NET and UniData with this application and this consultant is very responsive and, like all others, is looking for additional work. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you his name and number off list. Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
From the contractor side, I prefer a face to face inasmuch as possible. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
I spoke with Bob Rasmussen a few months ago over Skype and he had a camera on his computer. A bit Max Headroom but face-to-face. :-) Bill P.S. If you're moving software to the web, or not, you might check with Bob. Print Wizard is pretty cool and well supported...and the price is right! Symeon Breen said the following on 9/10/2009 12:32 AM: Its an interesting one - i still have found it very difficult without a real heap of specification work to not have a face to face with contractors... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 09 September 2009 16:58 To: U2 Mail List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 9/9/2009 6:54 AM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Sorry Symeon... west coast - USA. But I've worked with a number of consultants from the east coast of the US to the British Isles to the Balkan states to India to Australia to Hawaii. I've found the time zone is much less of an issue than quality of the consultant. I've been told there are millions of .NET developers but have found very few qualified to work on business applications. Bill Symeon Breen said the following on 9/9/2009 2:08 AM: Sorry Bill - what country are you in ? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 08 September 2009 18:30 To: U2 Mail List Subject: [U2] .NET Developer I thought I'd let the list know that I've been using a .NET programmer to help with one of our applications. We use mv.NET and UniData with this application and this consultant is very responsive and, like all others, is looking for additional work. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you his name and number off list. Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
Allen steps up to the soapbox As someone that's done *quite a bit* of both the remote programmer gig (11 years) as well as on site (23 years), I think it's very interesting that people will balk at spending 1 to 2 hours for a kickoff meeting with a programmer on the speaker phone or even skype video, while they think *nothing* of spending that much time face to face. Even half an hour a day over skype or phone *during the thickest part* of working out a HUGE project seems excessive to some, while the same people will spend that much time *or more* next to the coffee maker just blabbing about the latest snooze topics. In my experience, it's the NOT the distance - it's the amount of TIME AND ATTENTION that one spends tending to the questions of the programmer that makes or breaks projects and deadlines. It's the quality of the thought that goes into the words that are exchanged that makes the difference. I've had onsite and offsite clients that understood this and they received quality work on time!!! Other onsite and offsite clients that didn't want to spend the time or just blurted out incorrect answers to end the questioning received finished projects that matched the quality of their answers and the quantity of their time invested. As Rodney Dangerfield once said I don't get no respect and this perhaps could be the slogan of the 'work from home' programmers of the world. I suspect that as monstrously large and cheap paper thin monitors you can hang on the wall like a piece of paper become the norm and bandwidth reaches the trillion bits per second range, that people will ***still*** say they prefer face to face because they can't *smell* the person as well over *UBER HD* skype of the future ;-) Allen steps off the virtual soapbox Btw, the paper thin flexable plastic monitors exist but they're still working the kinks out of mass production. Coming soon to a wall near you... Allen *currently doin' the on site gig in a tiny smelly cube* Elwood -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org]on Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 8:47 AM To: U2 Mail List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer I spoke with Bob Rasmussen a few months ago over Skype and he had a camera on his computer. A bit Max Headroom but face-to-face. :-) Bill P.S. If you're moving software to the web, or not, you might check with Bob. Print Wizard is pretty cool and well supported...and the price is right! Symeon Breen said the following on 9/10/2009 12:32 AM: Its an interesting one - i still have found it very difficult without a real heap of specification work to not have a face to face with contractors... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 09 September 2009 16:58 To: U2 Mail List Subject: Re: [U2] .NET Developer u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 9/9/2009 6:54 AM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Sorry Symeon... west coast - USA. But I've worked with a number of consultants from the east coast of the US to the British Isles to the Balkan states to India to Australia to Hawaii. I've found the time zone is much less of an issue than quality of the consultant. I've been told there are millions of .NET developers but have found very few qualified to work on business applications. Bill Symeon Breen said the following on 9/9/2009 2:08 AM: Sorry Bill - what country are you in ? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 08 September 2009 18:30 To: U2 Mail List Subject: [U2] .NET Developer I thought I'd let the list know that I've been using a .NET programmer to help with one of our applications. We use mv.NET and UniData with this application and this consultant is very responsive and, like all others, is looking for additional work. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you his name and number off list. Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
Sorry Bill - what country are you in ? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 08 September 2009 18:30 To: U2 Mail List Subject: [U2] .NET Developer I thought I'd let the list know that I've been using a .NET programmer to help with one of our applications. We use mv.NET and UniData with this application and this consultant is very responsive and, like all others, is looking for additional work. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you his name and number off list. Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] .NET Developer
u2-users-ow...@listserver.u2ug.org said the following on 9/9/2009 6:54 AM: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed Sorry Symeon... west coast - USA. But I've worked with a number of consultants from the east coast of the US to the British Isles to the Balkan states to India to Australia to Hawaii. I've found the time zone is much less of an issue than quality of the consultant. I've been told there are millions of .NET developers but have found very few qualified to work on business applications. Bill Symeon Breen said the following on 9/9/2009 2:08 AM: Sorry Bill - what country are you in ? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: 08 September 2009 18:30 To: U2 Mail List Subject: [U2] .NET Developer I thought I'd let the list know that I've been using a .NET programmer to help with one of our applications. We use mv.NET and UniData with this application and this consultant is very responsive and, like all others, is looking for additional work. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you his name and number off list. Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] .NET Developer
I thought I'd let the list know that I've been using a .NET programmer to help with one of our applications. We use mv.NET and UniData with this application and this consultant is very responsive and, like all others, is looking for additional work. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you his name and number off list. Bill Haskett ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
