Re: Productivity metrics
- Original Message - From: "Ross Ferris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "U2 Users Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:49 PM Subject: RE: Productivity metrics > Do the metrics take the impact of tools into account ? The figures I've seen suggest that an IDE makes a big difference. Vanilla Java comes in at about 50-55 LOC/FP. But Visual Age, a Java IDE, comes in at about 1/2 those scores. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Productivity metrics
Do the metrics take the impact of tools into account ? Some of the examples I've looked at seem to include "all" lines of code produced from an environment like Delphi or VB, even though >80% of this "code" is produced from the IDE. I'm sure the same would be true of tools like SB+, and certainly with our Viságe product, though in both cases this would be offset to a degree by the effort involved in "smartening up" dictionaries Many of the "things" that historically required "hard code" can now be reduced to parameter settings for an "object" - how do you measure this ? Or the flow through effect of changing an output conversion from, say, D2/ to D4/, in an active dictionary environment. The productivity impact is obvious - but how do you quantify that sort of "gain" ? especially when it may be tempered by the fact that other parts of an organization/system may still be using "old fashioned", hand crafted PickBasic ? (I don't really want/need an answer to this, as I think the "results" could be skewed to show "anything", and the time taken to gain the result/insight could be longer than the time taken to get the job done ?!?) Ross Ferris Stamina Software Visage - an Evolution in Software Development >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Lee Leitner >Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2004 11:14 PM >To: U2 Users Discussion List >Subject: Re: Productivity metrics > >Sounds about right IMO. > >On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, Bob Dubery wrote: > >> Which'd put MV Basic at at about 35 LOC/FP. >> >> Interestingly that's not far off the score I arrived at by gut feel. >> >> -- >> u2-users mailing list >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users >> > >-- >Lee J. Leitner, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.leitner.org/~leitnerl > >The world can only be grasped by action, not by >contemplation. The hand is the cutting edge of the mind. > -- Jacob Bronowski V.13.0 >--- >-- >u2-users mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.658 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
Sounds about right IMO. On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, Bob Dubery wrote: > Which'd put MV Basic at at about 35 LOC/FP. > > Interestingly that's not far off the score I arrived at by gut feel. > > -- > u2-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > -- Lee J. Leitner, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.leitner.org/~leitnerl The world can only be grasped by action, not by contemplation. The hand is the cutting edge of the mind. -- Jacob Bronowski V.13.0 --- -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Productivity metrics
Ah, yes...one of those reguar ..."let's go around in circles and chase our tails" debates...again! ;-) It must be Friday! Regards, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob Dubery Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:43 PM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: Productivity metrics > It is complex topic and more than a bit off-topic for this forum...also a > very very dry subject. *Yawn* ;-) I'm not wanting to discuss the actual metric. We're having the regular debate about should we keep going with UV and if not what should we consider. One of the strengths of MV platforms has always been that they allow programmers to develop quickly. I'm hoping to be able to quantify that rather than give management the benefit of a gut feel. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
Goo'day, Bob,
You want to feel my gut?
That's extra! ~8^))
At 16:36 15/04/04, you wrote:
- Original Message -
From: "Bruce Nichol" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "U2 Users Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Productivity metrics
> Back in the days of yore, we "calculated" similar jobs at an overall rate
> of 2/5ths VM ("Pick" in those days) involvement to
> "normal" (then-)mainstream COBOL & "4GL" development. (I use the quotes
> advisedly! ).
Which'd put MV Basic at at about 35 LOC/FP.
Interestingly that's not far off the score I arrived at by gut feel.
--
u2-users mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
--
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 7.0.230 / Virus Database: 262.8.2 - Release Date: 15/04/04
Regards,
Bruce Nichol
Talon Computer Services
ALBURYNSW 2640
Australia
Tel: +61 (0)411149636
Fax: +61 (0)260232119
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!
--
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 7.0.230 / Virus Database: 262.8.2 - Release Date: 15/04/04
--
u2-users mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
- Original Message -
From: "Bruce Nichol" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "U2 Users Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Productivity metrics
> Back in the days of yore, we "calculated" similar jobs at an overall rate
> of 2/5ths VM ("Pick" in those days) involvement to
> "normal" (then-)mainstream COBOL & "4GL" development. (I use the quotes
> advisedly! ).
Which'd put MV Basic at at about 35 LOC/FP.
Interestingly that's not far off the score I arrived at by gut feel.
--
u2-users mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
Goo'day, Bob,
At 15:42 15/04/04, you wrote:
I'm not wanting to discuss the actual metric. We're having the regular
debate about should we keep going with UV and if not what should we
consider. One of the strengths of MV platforms has always been that they
allow programmers to develop quickly. I'm hoping to be able to quantify that
rather than give management the benefit of a gut feel.
Back in the days of yore, we "calculated" similar jobs at an overall rate
of 2/5ths VM ("Pick" in those days) involvement to
"normal" (then-)mainstream COBOL & "4GL" development. (I use the quotes
advisedly! ).
As often as it was checked, it seemd to work out at about that rate -
sufficient for manpower/estimating/costing/quoting, anyway. And it
wasn't only the 5 "normal" people (I use the quotes advisedly! ) vs 2
Pickies either.
But, put it this way: 2 ("qualified S&P") Pickies seemed to achieve about
what the 5 ( S/A, S&P, programmers + 1 trainee) others did in their
suiteAt the same time, salary comparisons were at about a 4:1
ratio, so Pick jobs cost about 1/4 t'other - as far as labour was
concerned. On-costs, secretarial, management, offices, furniture, phone,
etc, lessened that ratio a bit..
YMMV.
--
u2-users mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
--
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 7.0.230 / Virus Database: 262.8.2 - Release Date: 15/04/04
Regards,
Bruce Nichol
Talon Computer Services
ALBURYNSW 2640
Australia
Tel: +61 (0)411149636
Fax: +61 (0)260232119
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!
--
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 7.0.230 / Virus Database: 262.8.2 - Release Date: 15/04/04
--
u2-users mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
> It is complex topic and more than a bit off-topic for this forum...also a > very very dry subject. *Yawn* ;-) I'm not wanting to discuss the actual metric. We're having the regular debate about should we keep going with UV and if not what should we consider. One of the strengths of MV platforms has always been that they allow programmers to develop quickly. I'm hoping to be able to quantify that rather than give management the benefit of a gut feel. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
In the words from Hitchhiker's Guide, "Oh, no. Not again." On Apr 14, 2004, at 19:42, Mark Johnson wrote: reducing lines of code. Could this be where GOTO's have their day. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
Oh boy, I can smell the debates regarding programming styles in lieu of reducing lines of code. Could this be where GOTO's have their day. my 1 cent. - Original Message - From: "Bob Dubery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:24 AM Subject: Productivity metrics > Hi all, > > IBM initiated a metric called "Function Points" that attempts to provide a > means for measuring programming tools by the amount of code that has to be > written in order to produce a program of a certain complexity. > > There have been several studies by which programming languages have been > ranked in terms of lines of code (LOC) per function point (FP) > > Smalltalk, for example, is reckoned to have a ratio of 20 LOC per FP. Java > and C++ come in around the 50 mark. > > Is anybody aware of studies that have applied this kind of scoring to the > BASIC used in MV databases, or any other study that seeks to rank > programming languages in terms of programmer producivity and that includes > MV BASIC? > > Thanks > > Bob > > -- > u2-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Productivity metrics
The other interesting thing I noted @ the HELLO WORLD site was that we had FULL source code for things like delphi - even though 99.9% was produced automatically from the IDE ! Ross Ferris Stamina Software Visage – an Evolution in Software Development >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Brian Leach >Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 2004 11:25 PM >To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' >Subject: RE: Productivity metrics > >Ok I see. >Meaningless then. >You can write some pretty hairy nested stuff into a single 'C' statement. >How is that counted? >If you call a library function, do you count all the lines in that >function? >If you execute a SQL command under TSQL, how much of the SQL library is >included in the tally? > >It's like those old programming competitions - write the shortest program >in >any computer language that prints itself, and so forth (before anyone pipes >up, my entry: pg $0) > >I used a class generator a while back to generate VB classes to access a >data source. The classes are horrible, complicated, long winded things - >but >since they were machine generated and provide just about every method I >might need my productivity was actually improved by using them. > >A uvCase screen is built using a screen designer or from a short script. >But >the screen interpreter includes thousands of lines of Delphi code. Again, >which is counted? > >As a measure it all sounds a bit pointless - I can't see how number of >statements relates to programmer productivity when there are so many >different ways to pare a moggie. > >Brian > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Bob Dubery >Sent: 14 April 2004 12:59 >To: U2 Users Discussion List >Subject: Re: Productivity metrics > > >- Original Message - >From: "Brian Leach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "'U2 Users Discussion List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:55 PM >Subject: RE: Productivity metrics > > >> By 'lines of code' I wonder what they mean? >> >> Lines of source code? Number of Actions? Source or executable statements? >I've seen it expressed as lines of source code or as "statements" > >-- >u2-users mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > >This email was checked by MessageLabs SkyScan before entering Microgen. > > > >This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar >malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. > >DISCLAIMER > >This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be >privileged. > >If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender >immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other >person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. > >In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please >contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Microgen Information Management Solutions >http://www.microgen.co.uk >-- >u2-users mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.656 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.656 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 9/04/2004 -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Productivity metrics
I did a course of Function Point count years ago...we use it for a client of ours...althought it is being phased out somewhat... Here's the first thing we were told...and quote: "Definition of Function Points: - Function Points are a unit of measure - Function Points measure the work product of software development - The work-product is expressed in terms of functionality as seen by the customer - Function points DO NOT MEASURE the internal architectural or technological complexity of an application" There are there types of function point counts (FPC) (representing work done by developers): - Development (new development project) - Enhancement (enhancement to an existing application) - Application (counting an existing installed application) It is complex topic and more than a bit off-topic for this forum...also a very very dry subject. *Yawn* ;-) "Advantages of Function Points: - Based on well-defined counting standards - Based of the customer's logical perspective - Applicable to new development, enhancements and maintenance - Independent of technology and languages - A consistent sizing metric" It's not for everyone, but FPC has its place. Regards, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob Dubery Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 9:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Productivity metrics Hi all, IBM initiated a metric called "Function Points" that attempts to provide a means for measuring programming tools by the amount of code that has to be written in order to produce a program of a certain complexity. There have been several studies by which programming languages have been ranked in terms of lines of code (LOC) per function point (FP) Smalltalk, for example, is reckoned to have a ratio of 20 LOC per FP. Java and C++ come in around the 50 mark. Is anybody aware of studies that have applied this kind of scoring to the BASIC used in MV databases, or any other study that seeks to rank programming languages in terms of programmer producivity and that includes MV BASIC? Thanks Bob -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
- Original Message - From: "Lee Leitner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "U2 Users Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Productivity metrics > The other thing to do is try to interpolate using existing, measured > langauges. Indeed it might be fair to say MV BASIC is more COBOL-like in > productivity than traditional Dartmouth BASIC. Both have known LOC/FP > ratios. MV BASIC has got to have more "whipuptitude" than COBOL. For a start there's no need for the data division. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
In a message dated 4/14/2004 6:36:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I've worked with the function point methods for some time and I don't > think MV BASIC has been mapped. You could check with Dave Garmus, who is > a central figure in FP (Google him, he comes up near the front). http://www.ifpug.org Will Johnson Fast Forward Santa Cruz "Surf City" -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
I've worked with the function point methods for some time and I don't think MV BASIC has been mapped. You could check with Dave Garmus, who is a central figure in FP (Google him, he comes up near the front). In order to do it you need to run some statistics against a number of carefully selected projects that have application function point counts and their source code. That hopefully will average out all the implementation variations. The other thing to do is try to interpolate using existing, measured langauges. Indeed it might be fair to say MV BASIC is more COBOL-like in productivity than traditional Dartmouth BASIC. Both have known LOC/FP ratios. A more careful assessment of where our BASIC lies relative to other languages would probably come up with a reasonably close ratio value. Lee On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Bob Dubery wrote: > Hi all, > > IBM initiated a metric called "Function Points" that attempts to provide a > means for measuring programming tools by the amount of code that has to be > written in order to produce a program of a certain complexity. > > There have been several studies by which programming languages have been > ranked in terms of lines of code (LOC) per function point (FP) > > Smalltalk, for example, is reckoned to have a ratio of 20 LOC per FP. Java > and C++ come in around the 50 mark. > > Is anybody aware of studies that have applied this kind of scoring to the > BASIC used in MV databases, or any other study that seeks to rank > programming languages in terms of programmer producivity and that includes > MV BASIC? > > Thanks > > Bob > > -- > u2-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > -- Lee J. Leitner, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.leitner.org/~leitnerl The world can only be grasped by action, not by contemplation. The hand is the cutting edge of the mind. -- Jacob Bronowski V.13.0 --- -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Productivity metrics
Ok I see. Meaningless then. You can write some pretty hairy nested stuff into a single 'C' statement. How is that counted? If you call a library function, do you count all the lines in that function? If you execute a SQL command under TSQL, how much of the SQL library is included in the tally? It's like those old programming competitions - write the shortest program in any computer language that prints itself, and so forth (before anyone pipes up, my entry: pg $0) I used a class generator a while back to generate VB classes to access a data source. The classes are horrible, complicated, long winded things - but since they were machine generated and provide just about every method I might need my productivity was actually improved by using them. A uvCase screen is built using a screen designer or from a short script. But the screen interpreter includes thousands of lines of Delphi code. Again, which is counted? As a measure it all sounds a bit pointless - I can't see how number of statements relates to programmer productivity when there are so many different ways to pare a moggie. Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Dubery Sent: 14 April 2004 12:59 To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: Productivity metrics - Original Message - From: "Brian Leach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'U2 Users Discussion List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: RE: Productivity metrics > By 'lines of code' I wonder what they mean? > > Lines of source code? Number of Actions? Source or executable statements? I've seen it expressed as lines of source code or as "statements" -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This email was checked by MessageLabs SkyScan before entering Microgen. This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. DISCLAIMER This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microgen Information Management Solutions http://www.microgen.co.uk -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: Productivity metrics
- Original Message - From: "Brian Leach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'U2 Users Discussion List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: RE: Productivity metrics > By 'lines of code' I wonder what they mean? > > Lines of source code? Number of Actions? Source or executable statements? I've seen it expressed as lines of source code or as "statements" -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: Productivity metrics
By 'lines of code' I wonder what they mean? Lines of source code? Number of Actions? Source or executable statements? Ok, so how about an alternative - volume of typing? I've been doing some thread work with Delphi, which relies heavily on Borland's snappily named TMultipleReadExclusiveWriteSynchronizer class... .Net has useable code completion, but it's still bad enough... And as for java - MyStupidlyLongClassName stupidlyLongClassNameThingy = new MyStupidlyLongClassName It's enough to give anyone RSI Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Dubery Sent: 14 April 2004 12:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Productivity metrics Hi all, IBM initiated a metric called "Function Points" that attempts to provide a means for measuring programming tools by the amount of code that has to be written in order to produce a program of a certain complexity. There have been several studies by which programming languages have been ranked in terms of lines of code (LOC) per function point (FP) Smalltalk, for example, is reckoned to have a ratio of 20 LOC per FP. Java and C++ come in around the 50 mark. Is anybody aware of studies that have applied this kind of scoring to the BASIC used in MV databases, or any other study that seeks to rank programming languages in terms of programmer producivity and that includes MV BASIC? Thanks Bob -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This email was checked by MessageLabs SkyScan before entering Microgen. This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. DISCLAIMER This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microgen Information Management Solutions http://www.microgen.co.uk -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Productivity metrics
Hi all, IBM initiated a metric called "Function Points" that attempts to provide a means for measuring programming tools by the amount of code that has to be written in order to produce a program of a certain complexity. There have been several studies by which programming languages have been ranked in terms of lines of code (LOC) per function point (FP) Smalltalk, for example, is reckoned to have a ratio of 20 LOC per FP. Java and C++ come in around the 50 mark. Is anybody aware of studies that have applied this kind of scoring to the BASIC used in MV databases, or any other study that seeks to rank programming languages in terms of programmer producivity and that includes MV BASIC? Thanks Bob -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
