was
presented.
Thanks, Peter. I am a real user. Please stop harping on your
unhappiness about they way in which it was presented. It is peevish.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
n-based,
not Hebrew, but I personally believe it would be correct to encode
Phoenician-language texts in Phoenician script with the
Phoenician-specific code points (unless you want to transliterate it
into Hebrew or Latin or Syriac or whatever).
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ation given after each Cyrillic name.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 12:13 -0400 2004-05-14, Dean Snyder wrote:
Michael Everson wrote at 2:13 PM on Friday, May 14, 2004:
>At 08:05 -0400 2004-05-14, Dean Snyder wrote:
>> Why make something we do all the time more difficult and non-standard,
>> when what we do now works very well?
Wha
You can't play around with Ogham directionality like that. Reversing
it makes it read completely differently! The first example reads
INGACLU; the second reads ULCAGNI.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 14:25 -0400 2004-05-14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
You can't play around with Ogham directionality like that. Reversing
it makes it read completely differently! The first example reads
INGACLU; the second reads ULCAGNI.
Which is as much to say that R2L Ogh
do anything. (Well, apart from using
smart font technology for a lot of scripts, but that's not relevant
here.) Unicode makes characters available for those who wish to use
them.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
its approval will only exacerbate the situation. Why add to the mess?
Because the reality of writing systems is untidy, and the Universal
Character Set is intended to be Universal.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
re interested in the technical content than in the justification.
Whether members of this list will forgive me for that focus is up to
them.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Unicode, or nothing. Here there is a fourth possibility:
decide that Phoenician is a "script variant" in the sense of ISO 15924.
But it would be wrong to do that.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
aking process.
Hear, hear.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
which was the earlier ATNAH HAFUKH document. Sorry
about that. It should read:
05BA;HEBREW POINT QAMATS QATAN;Mn;18;NSM;N;;*;;;
... unless there is an additional error ;-)
Thanks for reading the proposal.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
same does not obtain with Phoenician letterforms and
Hebrew.
Again, no, you can't use archaic forms of letters in many
situations, but that doesn't mean they aren't unified with the
modern forms of letters.
From where I sit, it sure does.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 11:42 -0700 2004-05-03, John Hudson wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
>> Hebrew has the same 22 characters, with the same character properties.
And a baroque set of additional marks and signs, none of which
apply to any of the Phoenician letterforms, EVER, in the history of
typography, r
At 12:13 -0700 2004-05-03, John Hudson wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
No Georgian can read Nuskhuri without a key. I maintain that no
Hebrew reader can read Phoenician without a key. I maintain that it
is completely unacceptable to represent Yiddish text in a
Phoenician font and have anyone
Unicode is not elitist.
It's universal.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ave been" is great, but fixing one point is
of no particular utility.
For my own part, I have no strong view on this matter.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
OK, I don't care whether it is 18 or 220, and I am not qualified to
decide. You and Mark (and whoever else cares) can duke this one out.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
.
(*jaw drops*)
Excuse me?
I don't think I am going to be able to discuss user communities of
the Universal Character Set with you if this kind of exclusivist
rubbish is what you think can possibly apply.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 09:47 -0700 2004-05-04, Peter Kirk wrote:
On 03/05/2004 19:04, Michael Everson wrote:
At 09:41 -0700 2004-05-03, Peter Kirk wrote:
If your support had been cited in the original proposal with your
arguments, rather a lot of spilled electrons could have been
saved. Well, I guess it is not too
about other scripts which are often transliterated).
If there are, they would provide a good justification for your
proposal, helping to supply what is currently missing.
Enshrining "justifications" in the proposal documents really all that
important? It sounds like busywork to me.
also several
people who contacted me about this character distinction when I
announced another Hebrew proposal on some other lists.
It would be really cool if you would ease up on your fetish for the
Proposal Summary Form. I think you believe that it is a lot more
important than it is.
--
Michael Ev
icode character positions and unique Samaritan
names (SHAN not SHIN). Not kosher, of course, and heaven knows what
kinds of display behaviour they managed to get, but they were
certainly making a particular effort.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Historical origin of characters and scripts is
one of the things which we take into account when
determining their identity.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 10:09 +0200 2004-05-05, Simon Montagu wrote:
Proposal to add QAMATS QATAN to the BMP of the UCS
Michael Everson & Mark Shoulson
Nice.
Ta.
> 8a. Can any of the proposed characters be considered a presentation
form of an existing character or character sequence?
No.
Is this overstat
toire size.
Finally, I have read the Coptic proposal (I missed the announcement of
it, evidently) and praise it.
One is gratified to hear it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
nification of PH with Samaritan, or of
all three.
It is proposed that this would not be appropriate.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 16:21 -0400 2004-05-14, Dean Snyder wrote:
[repetition deleted]
Pete oun maaje mmof esotm maref sotm.
-- Gospel of Thomas 21.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
pose that
it be done?
What I meant was that I was amazed that you considered it even
remotely possible that anyone would "find a need to represent Ogham
in RTL".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ar, let him hear."
My apologies for the spelling error. There should be no space in "marefsotm".
P.S. Can we find something *else* to talk about this weekend?
I'll have a new and surprising proposal for you before the end of the
weekend, gods willing.
--
Michael Everson *
One last try.
At 16:21 -0400 2004-05-14, Dean Snyder wrote:
Michael Everson wrote at 7:29 PM on Thursday, May 13, 2004:
At 11:44 -0400 2004-05-13, Dean Snyder wrote:
occur side by side FOR THE SAME TEXTS IN THE SAME LANGUAGE.
In DIFFERENT SCRIPTS.
It's your dogmatic assertion that Phoen
x27;s 1976 Seder, or Jeffrey Shiovitz'
2001 B'kol Echad.
If anything, it should be some kind of glyph variant.
It's not a glyph variant. It's a rarely-used character, attested in
modern texts, which has its own name and shape, and which has a
different reading from QAMATS.
--
Mi
because one should be able
to differentiate between A, E written together as a single letter and AE. I
have intiated a discussion on this among the Yoruba scholars.
I don't know what that GB looks like; I don't
think I have encountered it before.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography
differentiated from G and B combined together.
GBOGBO WAON ARE G.B. TI DE?
The sequence g + b has special significance in Yoruba, but it is
still "G" + "B", not "GB".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 08:56 -0400 2004-05-03, John Cowan wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
You can buy books to teach you how to learn Sütterlin. Germans who
don't read Sütterlin recognize it as what it is -- a hard-to-read way
that everyone used to write German not so long ago.
Sure. At some point, the sam
enician glyphs? So what? There are Latin font hacks just the
same. You can map one-to-one to Hebrew? So what? You can map
one-to-one to Syriac and Greek, and probably others. You want to
encode Moabite texts in Hebrew transliteration? Go right ahead.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
In Yoruba, you treat "gb" as a letter. That is fine. But you encode
it with "g" + "b".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ould really do is say, go,
study, learn what I have. I have been writing on
this topic for three days now, and I have said
more than repeating "it's a different script".
It's a different script, though.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
text, then the solution is obvious:
I believe that it should be possible to encode it in plain text.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ication of Hebrew as encoded and the
Phoenician scripts. It is a false unification by everything I know
from my study of the writing systems of the world. The Universal
Character Set would be impoverished, foolishly and pointlessly, if
this false unification is accepted.
--
Michael Everson *
At 10:50 -0400 2004-05-03, John Cowan wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
> It is false to suggest that fully-pointed Hebrew text can be rendered
> in Phoenician script and that this is perfectly acceptable to any
> Hebrew reader
Of course it is.
Then it is false to pretend that the un
At 08:47 -0700 2004-05-03, Mark Davis wrote:
More explicitly: "But sometimes self-evident to Michael is self-evident to
Michael "
My track record is not all that bad, Mark. I do try my best.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
tands.
Please file the query according to the rules on the ISO 15924 website, then.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
mally use the Phoenician glyphs at all.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
have? While I am pleased
that you are happier, my own interest is in the technical accuracy of
the code chart and character names, not in *justifying* its inclusion.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 22:20 -0400 2004-05-03, John Cowan wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
Semiticists seem to transliterate Phoenican-script text into Latin
or Hebrew, and do not normally use the Phoenician glyphs at all.
Though we don't know to what extent that reflects the inability of
conventional printe
At 22:31 -0400 2004-05-03, John Cowan wrote:
Michael Everson scripsit:
A new contribution.
http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2755.pdf
N2755
Proposal to add QAMATS QATAN to the BMP of the UCS
Michael Everson & Mark Shoulson
Good stuff. What effect, if any, will this have on the stan
ch for human history....
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
A new contribution.
http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2755.pdf
N2755
Proposal to add QAMATS QATAN to the BMP of the UCS
Michael Everson & Mark Shoulson
rich typographic and font traditon of
Square Hebrew with any sense at all.
Wedding invitations are routinely set in
Blackletter and Gaelic typefaces. I bet you £20
that if an ordinary Hebrew speaker sent out a
wedding invitation in Palaeo-Hebrew no one would
turn up on the day.
--
Michael Evers
At 17:59 + 2004-05-03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the contents of the screen shot were encoded in plain text under
the false unification of Phoenician with Hebrew, script identity
would be lost.
We had the same argument to disunify Coptic from Greek.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography
At 02:50 + 2004-05-04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Encouraging users to review the proposal and comment on its merits
strikes me as a fairer approach than the questions you and I have
constructed.
Thank you.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 22:47 -0400 2004-05-03, John Cowan wrote:
Expense. Complication. Delays while the encoding gets into the Standard
and thence into popular operating systems, with all the accoutrements
such as keyboard software.
None of those are reasons to stop encoding historic scripts.
--
Michael Everson
pronunciation of Hebrew words is a different thing in any
case.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
rly
Phoenician language if they find it hard to read and prefer to
represent it in Hebrew script, or in Latin.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 20:02 -0400 2004-04-28, Dean Snyder wrote:
Michael Everson wrote at 12:15 PM on Wednesday, April 28, 2004:
Because Hebrew is only *one* of Phoenician's descendants and because
there is a requirement to distinguish the two in plain text. There
exist Hebrew texts and Greek texts which use
Phoenician letterforms isn't a
solution either.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
;t do that, for reasons which have been stated already.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 23:01 -0400 2004-04-28, Dean Snyder wrote:
Michael Everson is one of the authors of the proposal to encode 2400
years of cuneiform in one unified encoding. There is far greater
disparity between URIII Sumerian and Neo-Babylonian embodied in that
proposed single encoding than there is between
r, or Sinhala
scripts.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
It is not reasonable to set a Georgian restaurant menu in Nuskhuri script.
It is not reasonable to set a Hebrew restaurant menu in Phoenician script.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ther.
As have most other students of writing systems for generations.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
me indeed. That is a different user community from
students of ancient Semitic languages
Ah, so when you said "Scholars do what they want" I should have
interpreted it as "Certain scholars do what they want."
You might have said that "That expectation is of course not
acceptabl
a de facto unification.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
no de facto unification. This script has been on the
books for ages. This script has been described by historians of
writing as distinct from Hebrew for two hundred years.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
ew list is the best place to discuss the distinction
between Hebrew and Phoenician.
I don't think so. Phoenician and Hebrew are different scripts. ;-)
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At least some of us have tried.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
t is an isolated case, though.
It's not isolated at all. Ze'ev is transliterating Samaritan text
into Hebrew script. I have seen books on Ugaritic grammar that do
likewise. It doesn't mean that there is no Samaritan or Ugaritic
script.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
we need a few new ones?
It is a separate script.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 09:33 -0400 2004-04-30, John Cowan wrote:
The Initial Teaching Alphabet, which also favors dead-simple glyphs,
may be relevant, perhaps even unifiable.
They are Latin extensions.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
bet, and Etruscan derives from Euboean Greek.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
in Phoenician
glyphs, not Hebrew, but these glyphs are treated as typeface
variants of Hebrew.
I have plenty of fonts where the Phoenician glyphs are treated as
typeface variants of Latin.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
in Hebrew script if you wanted to encode it in the
script in which it was later written (after the Exile) and if you
wanted to encode it in the script in which it is currently written.
Just
as
you
would
encode a Pali text in Brahmi script or Devanagari script, etc.
--
Michael Everson *
raser doesn't participate
in the normal behaviour of Latin, including its glyph variation, its
cursivity in writing, its casing behaviour, even italicization as
opposed to obliquity.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
I succeed sometimes
In making him win.
- Charles Peguy
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
asons.
Please do not put those words into my mouth. That is a
mischaracterization of this discussion and my part in it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
different script. The language has nothing to do with it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 15:57 -0400 2004-04-30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ego et Michael Everson inter se scripserunt:
>An alternate version of Michael could present a similarly
>technically impeccable proposal for Gaelic script, and then the
>question would be, is it the same as Latin, or is it a separate
Phoenician should be encoded because it has a demonstrable usage,
even if it's slight and mostly paedagogical, and as one of the main
pre-cursors to a lot of other scripts.
That pre-cursor was not Hebrew, which developed later and did not
engender additional scripts.
--
Michael Ev
been reading all the arguments carefully enough,
Mark. Historical principles HAVE informed and DO inform what is
encoded in the Unicode Standard.
Your "analogy" with Aldus is specious at best.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
oking lately.
I wholeheartedly concur.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
People who work with that *language* on computers can transcribe it
with whatever they want. The set of *scripts* proposed to be unified
under the Phoenician *script*, however, does include Palaeo-Hebrew as
a *script*.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
k the answer is not,
because essentially these charts are graphics of glyphs, not text.
Perhaps if you would look at the proposal you would see the
demonstrated use of the script given in the figures there.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 00:36 -0800 2004-05-02, D. Starner wrote:
And there are sites that consider Gaelic and Fraktur seperate scripts,
including one by Michael Everson.
My site certainly does not consider Gaelic to be a separate script from Latin.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http
Unless, of course, it is because I am not employed by a University as
an expert that you don't consider me "qualified" to give an expert
opinion -- in which case I should like to point you to the
bibliography of documents I have authored over the past decade.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 08:58 -0700 2004-05-01, Peter Kirk wrote:
On 29/04/2004 17:36, Michael Everson wrote:
At 10:34 -0700 2004-04-29, Peter Kirk wrote:
But what answer do you have to my point, made in more detail
elsewhere, that it will cause total confusion, and defeat the
purposes of Unicode, if some people use
, and trust that it will
be a useful standard for our work.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
. Neither case is a "failure" of the
Unicode Standard.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
l be encoded as a unique script,
separate from Hebrew.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
not.
Latg and Latf are variants of the Latin script, distinguished in ISO
15924 for the reasons stated in ISO 15924. Those reasons are
specific, and are not in the least bit analogous to the question of
the identity of Phoenician and Hebrew scripts.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typogra
using our intelligence and
common sense. :-)
Do you really think it necessary that the proposal be a thesis
reprising a hundred years of script analysis?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
are not?
Please read the standard, John.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 14:03 -0700 2004-05-02, Paul Nelson \(TYPOGRAPHY\) wrote:
It seems funny that a two or three character script, like Yi, must have
a weird name just so it has four alpha characters (Yiii).
Yes, it does.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
At 11:10 -0700 2004-05-02, Peter Kirk wrote:
On 01/05/2004 11:42, Michael Everson wrote:
At 10:36 -0700 2004-05-01, Peter Kirk wrote:
This pedagogical usage is not in plain text, or at least plain
text usage has not been demonstrated. I think I asked before and
didn't receive an answer: s
At 11:06 -0700 2004-05-02, Peter Kirk wrote:
Michael Everson, who knows so little Phoenician that he doesn't know
how similar it is to Hebrew?
You are confusing language and script. I am not encoding the
Phoenician language. I am encoding a set of genetically related
scripts with si
#x27;t very common, and
sometimes it isn't very sensible. :) In my life, one central lesson
I have learned the hard way is to never assume that someone else
will grasp what you consider obvious.
Clearly some people have not grasped it, much to the surprise of a
number of us.
--
Mich
ters in the Unicode Standard are
informative.
Common sense says that you should not use the Hebrew block for
Phoenician script with a masquerading font, since the Hebrew script
and the Phoenician script are different scripts.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
saying that I agree wholeheartedly with the contra-argument,
but don't think you can duck the argument by begging the question.
I think I didn't duck here.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
scripts, in print certainly if not yet on the web.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
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