Re: Emoji Haggadah
I cannot; definitely it requires first good knowldge of English (to find possible synonyms, plus phonetic approximations, including using abbreviatable words), and Hebrew culture (to guess names and the context). All this text looks completely random and makes no sense otherwise. Le mar. 16 avr. 2019 à 04:22, Tex via Unicode a écrit : > Oy veh! > > > > *From:* Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark > E. Shoulson via Unicode > *Sent:* Monday, April 15, 2019 5:27 PM > *To:* unicode@unicode.org > *Subject:* Emoji Haggadah > > > > The only thing more disturbing than the existence of The Emoji Haggadah ( > https://www.amazon.com/Emoji-Haggadah-Martin-Bodek/dp/1602803463/) is the > fact that I'm starting to find that I can read it... > > > > ~mark >
Re: Emoji Haggadah
On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, James Kass via Unicode wrote: > http://historyview.blogspot.com/2011/10/yukaghir-girl-writes-love-letter.html According to a comment, the Yukaghir love letter as semasiographic communication was debunked by John DeFrancis in 1989 who asserted that it was merely a prop in a Yukaghir parlor game. Perhaps that debunking was in the very book cited by Martin J. Dürst earlier in this thread. The blog page comment went on to say that Geoffrey Sampson, who wrote the book from which the blogger learned of the Yukaghir love letter, published a retraction in 1994. Thank you. I read about it in Sampson's book, but had not heard about the debunking or the retraction. Almost too bad; it seems to work so well. The closest thing I know to something like that, expressing ideas but not language-dependent, would be mathematical notation. ~mark
Re: Emoji Haggadah
> Perhaps that debunking was in the very book > cited by Martin J. Dürst earlier in this thread. Yes, starting on page 24. https://books.google.com/books?id=hypplIDMd0IC=PA24=isbn:0824812077+Yukaghir=en=X=0ahUKEwj1n4r719zgAhWJn4MKHcdyCHIQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage=isbn%3A0824812077%20Yukaghir=false
Re: Emoji Haggadah
> http://historyview.blogspot.com/2011/10/yukaghir-girl-writes-love-letter.html According to a comment, the Yukaghir love letter as semasiographic communication was debunked by John DeFrancis in 1989 who asserted that it was merely a prop in a Yukaghir parlor game. Perhaps that debunking was in the very book cited by Martin J. Dürst earlier in this thread. Martin J. Dürst via Unicode wrote, >> There is a well-known thesis in linguistics that every script has to be >> at least in part phonetic, and the above are examples that add support >> to this. For deeper explanations (unfortunately not yet including >> emoji), see e.g. "Visible Speech - The Diverse Oneness of Writing >> Systems", by John DeFrancis, University of Hawaii Press, 1989. The blog page comment went on to say that Geoffrey Sampson, who wrote the book from which the blogger learned of the Yukaghir love letter, published a retraction in 1994.
Re: Emoji Haggadah
On 4/16/19 4:00 AM, James Kass via Unicode wrote: On 2019-04-16 7:09 AM, Martin J. Dürst via Unicode wrote: All the examples you cite, where images stand for sounds, are typically used in some of the oldest "ideographic" scripts. Egyptian definitely has such concepts, and Han (CJK) does so, too, with most ideographs consisting of a semantic and a phonetic component. Using emoji as rebus puzzles seems harmless enough but it defeats the goals of those emoji proponents who want to see emoji evolve into a universal form of communication because phonetic recognition of symbols would be language specific. Users of ancient ideographic systems typically shared a common language where rebus or phonetic usage made sense to the users. (Of course, diverse CJK user communities were able to adapt over time.) All of the reviews of this publication on the page originally linked seemed positive, so it appears that people are having fun with emoji. But I suspect that this work would be jibber-jabber to any non-English speaker unfamiliar with the original Haggadah. No matter how otherwise fluent they might be in emoji communication. You are certainly correct that you need to be an English-speaker to read it. Knowing the original (and Hebrew) helps, and maybe sometimes is necessary too (How can Rabbi Akiva be translated as ?? Well, "rabbit" for "Rabbi" [English-speaking knowledge], and "Akiva" comes from the root AYIN-QOF-BET, meaning "heel" [Hebrew knowledge]). There is a section in the back that purports to explain the workings of some of this, but I actually haven't read it, and have been avoiding it. Just working it out on my own. The back of the book also has the actual text in both Hebrew and English, and sometimes I'll look there to see what the English was that they were translating to get whatever it was they got to. I think the notion that emoji could evolve into a "universal form of communication" is unrealistic. Emoji are in many ways *definitionally* culture-specific, far from culturally neutral (at best they can try to be kinda inclusive, but that only goes so far.) Crafting specific sentences to meet the demands of a language-speaking population needs more than the cute-looking symbols. It also needs boring ones to express their relationships, or at least some cool way to join them together (see the famous "Yukaghir Love Letter"; one description here: historyview.blogspot.com/2011/10/yukaghir-girl-writes-love-letter.html) At any rate, emoji are not designed or selected with completeness for communication in mind. For them to fill that role, there would have to be some work done on figuring out what's missing, etc. (see also a whole slew of conlang projects from the zany to the scholarly (but mostly zany) attempting to distill all meaning down to a ridiculously small set of symbols for expressing anything. What's coming to mind to me right now is aUI, which if I recall correctly had all of communication boiled down to 36 symbols—of which 10 were numerals). It's still kinda fun to work out what the book is trying to say, though... ~mark
Re: Emoji Haggadah
I suspect that this work would be jibber-jabber to any non-English speaker unfamiliar with the original Haggadah. No matter how otherwise fluent they might be in emoji communication. You can't escape fundamental theses: There is a well-known thesis in linguistics that every script has to be at least in part phonetic, and the above are examples that add support to this. For deeper explanations (unfortunately not yet including emoji), see e.g. "Visible Speech - The Diverse Oneness of Writing Systems", by John DeFrancis, University of Hawaii Press, 1989. Going further: emoji are also subject to being "conventionalized" if that is the term, that is that conventions come about so that some image stands for a concept even if that image isn't directly connected. Some examples are telephone handsets and other early form of technology standing in for later versions of the same thing. (Floppy disk icon for "save"). More of that will happen with the full spectrum of emoji and these conventions may then also no longer be universal but specific to some group of users. At which point, you are back at where the other pictographic writing systems started to evolve. A./
Re: Emoji Haggadah
On 2019-04-16 7:09 AM, Martin J. Dürst via Unicode wrote: All the examples you cite, where images stand for sounds, are typically used in some of the oldest "ideographic" scripts. Egyptian definitely has such concepts, and Han (CJK) does so, too, with most ideographs consisting of a semantic and a phonetic component. Using emoji as rebus puzzles seems harmless enough but it defeats the goals of those emoji proponents who want to see emoji evolve into a universal form of communication because phonetic recognition of symbols would be language specific. Users of ancient ideographic systems typically shared a common language where rebus or phonetic usage made sense to the users. (Of course, diverse CJK user communities were able to adapt over time.) All of the reviews of this publication on the page originally linked seemed positive, so it appears that people are having fun with emoji. But I suspect that this work would be jibber-jabber to any non-English speaker unfamiliar with the original Haggadah. No matter how otherwise fluent they might be in emoji communication.
Re: Emoji Haggadah
Hello Mark, others,
On 2019/04/16 12:18, Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode wrote:
> Yes. But the sentences aren't just symbolic representations of the
> concepts or something. They are frequently direct
> transcriptions—usually by puns—for *English* sentences, so left-to-right
> makes sense. So for example, the phrase "️⌛️️" translates "The LORD
> our God". For whatever reason, the author decided to go with ️ for
> "God" and such, and the hourglass in the middle is for "our", which
> sounds like "hour". See? Ugh. I think he uses for "us" (U.S. =
> us). In the story of the five Rabbis discussing the laws in Bnei Brak,
> for one thing the word "Rabbi" is transcribed ("rabbit" instead of
> "rabbi"), and it says they were in "" (boy - boy -
> cloud-with-lightning). The two boys for "sons" (which translates the
> word "Bnei" in the name of the city), and the lightning, "barak" in
> Hebrew, is for "brak", the second part of the name. The front cover,
> which you can see on the amazon page... That (shell) in the title?
> Because it's saying "Haggadah shel Pesach", the Hebrew word "shel"
> meaning "of." The author's name? ♥♢♣♠ (or whatever the exact
> ordering is): "Martin Bodek", that is martini-glass, bow, and the four
> suits of a DECK of cards. Sorry; see what I mean about getting carried
> away by being able to read the silly thing? Anyway. The sentences are
> definitely ENGLISH sentences, not Hebrew or any sort of language-neutral
> semasiography or whatever, so LTR ordering makes sense (to the extent
> any of this makes sense.)
All the examples you cite, where images stand for sounds, are typically
used in some of the oldest "ideographic" scripts. Egyptian definitely
has such concepts, and Han (CJK) does so, too, with most ideographs
consisting of a semantic and a phonetic component.
There is a well-known thesis in linguistics that every script has to be
at least in part phonetic, and the above are examples that add support
to this. For deeper explanations (unfortunately not yet including
emoji), see e.g. "Visible Speech - The Diverse Oneness of Writing
Systems", by John DeFrancis, University of Hawaii Press, 1989.
Regards, Martin.
> ~mark
>
> On 4/15/19 10:56 PM, Beth Myre via Unicode wrote:
>> This is amazing.
>>
>> It's also really interesting that he decided to make the sentences
>> read left-to-right.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:05 PM Tex via Unicode > > wrote:
>>
>> Oy veh!
>>
>> *From:*Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org
>> ] *On Behalf Of *Mark E.
>> Shoulson via Unicode
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 15, 2019 5:27 PM
>> *To:* unicode@unicode.org
>> *Subject:* Emoji Haggadah
>>
>> The only thing more disturbing than the existence of The Emoji
>> Haggadah
>> (https://www.amazon.com/Emoji-Haggadah-Martin-Bodek/dp/1602803463/)
>> is the fact that I'm starting to find that I can read it...
>>
>> ~mark
Re: Emoji Haggadah
On 2019-04-16 3:18 AM, Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode wrote: > For whatever reason, the author decided to go with ️ for "God" and such, ... "OM"igod. Just a thought. If the emoji OM SYMBOL is to be used for "god", shouldn't it be casing to enable distinction between the common noun and the deity?
Re: Emoji Haggadah
Yes. But the sentences aren't just symbolic representations of the
concepts or something. They are frequently direct
transcriptions—usually by puns—for *English* sentences, so left-to-right
makes sense. So for example, the phrase "️⌛️️" translates "The LORD
our God". For whatever reason, the author decided to go with ️ for
"God" and such, and the hourglass in the middle is for "our", which
sounds like "hour". See? Ugh. I think he uses for "us" (U.S. =
us). In the story of the five Rabbis discussing the laws in Bnei Brak,
for one thing the word "Rabbi" is transcribed ("rabbit" instead of
"rabbi"), and it says they were in "" (boy - boy -
cloud-with-lightning). The two boys for "sons" (which translates the
word "Bnei" in the name of the city), and the lightning, "barak" in
Hebrew, is for "brak", the second part of the name. The front cover,
which you can see on the amazon page... That (shell) in the title?
Because it's saying "Haggadah shel Pesach", the Hebrew word "shel"
meaning "of." The author's name? ♥♢♣♠ (or whatever the exact
ordering is): "Martin Bodek", that is martini-glass, bow, and the four
suits of a DECK of cards. Sorry; see what I mean about getting carried
away by being able to read the silly thing? Anyway. The sentences are
definitely ENGLISH sentences, not Hebrew or any sort of language-neutral
semasiography or whatever, so LTR ordering makes sense (to the extent
any of this makes sense.)
~mark
On 4/15/19 10:56 PM, Beth Myre via Unicode wrote:
This is amazing.
It's also really interesting that he decided to make the sentences
read left-to-right.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:05 PM Tex via Unicode > wrote:
Oy veh!
*From:*Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org
] *On Behalf Of *Mark E.
Shoulson via Unicode
*Sent:* Monday, April 15, 2019 5:27 PM
*To:* unicode@unicode.org
*Subject:* Emoji Haggadah
The only thing more disturbing than the existence of The Emoji
Haggadah
(https://www.amazon.com/Emoji-Haggadah-Martin-Bodek/dp/1602803463/)
is the fact that I'm starting to find that I can read it...
~mark
Re: Emoji Haggadah
This is amazing. It's also really interesting that he decided to make the sentences read left-to-right. On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:05 PM Tex via Unicode wrote: > Oy veh! > > > > *From:* Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark > E. Shoulson via Unicode > *Sent:* Monday, April 15, 2019 5:27 PM > *To:* unicode@unicode.org > *Subject:* Emoji Haggadah > > > > The only thing more disturbing than the existence of The Emoji Haggadah ( > https://www.amazon.com/Emoji-Haggadah-Martin-Bodek/dp/1602803463/) is the > fact that I'm starting to find that I can read it... > > > > ~mark >
RE: Emoji Haggadah
Oy veh! From: Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Mark E. Shoulson via Unicode Sent: Monday, April 15, 2019 5:27 PM To: unicode@unicode.org Subject: Emoji Haggadah The only thing more disturbing than the existence of The Emoji Haggadah (https://www.amazon.com/Emoji-Haggadah-Martin-Bodek/dp/1602803463/) is the fact that I'm starting to find that I can read it... ~mark
