date:20200814

On August 14, 2020 8:10:59 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
 wrote:



Oh, just to summarize the issue:
https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm


I'd hardly call 16 bugs "abandonware". They've fixed far more than that. 
LCFM is important. I know you don't believe it, but some day I think you will.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: Layers in PBrowser

2020-08-14 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode

Oh, just to summarize the issue:
https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm

If an object you wish to move between group layers is on the root of the
card it is not a problem. As soon as all of those layers (groups and
objects) get nested into a group, that's when things start bouncing
around and not going where you want them.

So, thinking about it, this is actually more likely an IDE issue and a bug
rather than an Engine problem with backwards compatibility side-effects.

Here's the main script:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/palettes/project%20browser/revprojectbrowserbehavior.livecodescript#L2121

Line 2121 >> 2302
By the look of line 870, Layers were going to be addressed but never saw
the light of day. It gets declared but never used.

And, of course, we have the raw:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/palettes/project%20browser/revideprojectbrowser.livecode

Awww, and I love this comment at the top of this file btw:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/libraries/revideprojectbrowserlibrary.livecodescript

This library has been added as a stopgap in order to prevent errors which
> occur because

of interactions between the old project browser and binary stacks which
> otherwise could

only be fixed by forking the binary stack for the 8.0 IDE.

5 effing years ago -- ;D LMAO

Ali did this bug fix, supposedly, back in Apr2016, which is second to the
last commit in Aug2016!:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/commit/a5d137688a2e1abe72823c6ce0d7cb8fa8fb1f22#diff-d70adda35c18162b698c70f94170c58d
Because it's part of the binary where he did the (non-) 'fix', there's no
way of seeing what he did. Only the behaviour had been scriptified way back
in 2015. All the rest is held either in other behaviour scripts or the
Stack object scripts which is where it gets exceedingly messy.

This one seems interesting for the drag-drop part, after line 420:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/palettes/project%20browser/behaviors/revideprojectbrowsercontainerrowbehavior.livecodescript

That's my homework assignment for you. See what you can faff with. For what
it's worth...

Mr Pi
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs    Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 01:25, Sean Cole (Pi)  wrote:

> Thanks Richard, Brian and Mark.
>
> Now that the rush is over I can breathe and try to work this out, again,
> to make it simple for even simpletons to understand! ;) It is, as said
> before, an issue that has been an issue for 6 years, gets poo-poo'd and
> ignored along with the plethora of other fundamental issues in favour of
> adding new features that get partially completed and stupid expensive $500
> plugins no one will buy!
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3vu13khoscqjvk/LayersFail.mov?dl=0
>
> I've tried it on Linux, Windoze and MacOS. This is created in LC9.6.0
> Stable. Not from a binary or an old version (thanks for the suggestion,
> Brian, but I was working on a brand new, quick turn-around project - 3 days
> to produce a fully working TV Gameshow onscreen graphics application from
> _**scratch**_ - LC rocks when it's not complete turd!),
>
> If it's, as Jacque infers, down to how layers are handled then it's
> probably an Engine thing. Indeed, Mark@LC does indeed infer this too in
> one of the bug reports. As Richard says, this could produce Backwards
> Compatibility issues. But I never understand why that should stop it from
> being fixed. The 'just the way it is' card should NEVER prevent progress
> and improvement. The old engines and versions still exist and can be used
> until the old apps are brought up to date. Old code and methods are often
> deprecated in our business in all languages. So why not improve, ney, FIX
> the g-damned dysfunctional layering? Pathetic excuses, that's why!
>
> I've looked through all of the IDE code and it's a serious mess! Much like
> the stupid dictionary browser that's got itself stuck in the 1950s somehow.
> I think Turing had something to do with it. :/ But, as Mark@AHS
> mentioned, even if I did find a fix and offered it, because it's a binary
> it cant be easily posted up on Github and LC seem to have gone to the
> isolation ward since lockdown (and about 6mths before as well). Our very
> breath here is wasted because, as is noted by the lack of noise from LC
> despite their chipping in on other conversations on this forum, PB is not a
> subject LC are even remotely interested in. Based on the volley of issues
> on Bugzilla I cherry-picked from related to PB not working, barely any

Re: Layers in PBrowser

2020-08-14 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode

Thanks Richard, Brian and Mark.

Now that the rush is over I can breathe and try to work this out, again, to
make it simple for even simpletons to understand! ;) It is, as said before,
an issue that has been an issue for 6 years, gets poo-poo'd and ignored
along with the plethora of other fundamental issues in favour of adding new
features that get partially completed and stupid expensive $500 plugins no
one will buy!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3vu13khoscqjvk/LayersFail.mov?dl=0

I've tried it on Linux, Windoze and MacOS. This is created in LC9.6.0
Stable. Not from a binary or an old version (thanks for the suggestion,
Brian, but I was working on a brand new, quick turn-around project - 3 days
to produce a fully working TV Gameshow onscreen graphics application from
_**scratch**_ - LC rocks when it's not complete turd!),

If it's, as Jacque infers, down to how layers are handled then it's
probably an Engine thing. Indeed, Mark@LC does indeed infer this too in one
of the bug reports. As Richard says, this could produce Backwards
Compatibility issues. But I never understand why that should stop it from
being fixed. The 'just the way it is' card should NEVER prevent progress
and improvement. The old engines and versions still exist and can be used
until the old apps are brought up to date. Old code and methods are often
deprecated in our business in all languages. So why not improve, ney, FIX
the g-damned dysfunctional layering? Pathetic excuses, that's why!

I've looked through all of the IDE code and it's a serious mess! Much like
the stupid dictionary browser that's got itself stuck in the 1950s somehow.
I think Turing had something to do with it. :/ But, as Mark@AHS mentioned,
even if I did find a fix and offered it, because it's a binary it cant be
easily posted up on Github and LC seem to have gone to the isolation ward
since lockdown (and about 6mths before as well). Our very breath here is
wasted because, as is noted by the lack of noise from LC despite their
chipping in on other conversations on this forum, PB is not a subject LC
are even remotely interested in. Based on the volley of issues on Bugzilla
I cherry-picked from related to PB not working, barely any have been
touched in the last 6yrs despite being confirmed.

HTML5 deployment is abandonware (I'm going to have to ask for a refund
on my two three year licences for it after all the failed promises of it
NOT being abandonware). Project Browser is abandonware. Widgets and the LC
marketplace, abandonware. Script editor, Abandonware. Monte's mergext
suite, practically abandonware. LCFM Native, definitely abandonware (
https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm) for all the
money they fed into that amazing waste of time. LC itself?? Heading that
way.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 00:16, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 8/14/20 3:33 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > If I can get a stack that demonstrates the issue, I would like to poke
> around and see if anything jumps out.  If it is engine level, it is
> probably a bit out of my lane (although I have contributed a few lines of
> C++).  If it is IDE I may have a better chance.
>
> Brian-
>
> I'm pretty sure this is IDE-level and not in the engine. But I've stuck
> my toe into the PB pool before and I'm not inclined to go there again.
> Plus at the rate my pull requests get ignored I'm not very motivated to
> try to fix things.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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RE: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

There is a song to be written for
https://webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/. It may have multiple
time signatures... but I digress. Here's the code that's working for me:


if the environment = "mobile" and the platform = "iphone" and the machine
contains "iPad" then -- one can never be too careful

  switch

 case the systemversion begins with "12" -- iOS 12

set the userAgent of widget "BrowserW" to "Mozilla/5.0 (iPad;
CPU OS 12_4_8 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko)
Version/12.1.2 Mobile/15E148 Safari/604.1"

break

 case the systemversion begins with "13" -- iOS 13

set the userAgent of widget "BrowserW" to "Mozilla/5.0
(Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15_4) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko)
Version/13.1.1 Safari/605.1.15"

break

 default -- everybody else. This could get me into trouble later.
Maybe default should be deleted?  REVISIT

set the userAgent of widget "BrowserW" to "Mozilla/5.0 (iPad;
CPU OS 12_4_8 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko)
Version/12.1.2 Mobile/15E148 Safari/604.1"

  end switch

   end if


Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 7:17 PM
To: Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
Cc: Mark Wieder
Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

On 8/14/20 2:54 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Mark/Panos,
> 
> Thanks for all your help, this worked like a charm! I got the 
> userAgent from a v12 iPad and v13 iPad. For any other iPad OS version 
> I use the v13 version.

Just curious... what userAgent string worked for you?

--
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode


On 8/14/20 12:06 PM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote:


Same as winning the lottery - you have to have a ticket.


Winning the lottery is cheaper if you don't buy a ticket.
And the odds are about the same.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

2020-08-14 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode


On 8/14/20 2:54 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:

Mark/Panos,

Thanks for all your help, this worked like a charm! I got the userAgent from
a v12 iPad and v13 iPad. For any other iPad OS version I use the v13
version.


Just curious... what userAgent string worked for you?

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Layers in PBrowser

2020-08-14 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode


On 8/14/20 3:33 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:


If I can get a stack that demonstrates the issue, I would like to poke around 
and see if anything jumps out.  If it is engine level, it is probably a bit out 
of my lane (although I have contributed a few lines of C++).  If it is IDE I 
may have a better chance.


Brian-

I'm pretty sure this is IDE-level and not in the engine. But I've stuck 
my toe into the PB pool before and I'm not inclined to go there again. 
Plus at the rate my pull requests get ignored I'm not very motivated to 
try to fix things.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Layers in PBrowser

2020-08-14 Thread Brian Milby via use-livecode


Sean

I really didn’t mean to imply the issue didn’t exist and was truly attempting 
to reproduce the environment as closely as possible to see the issue.  I went 
as far as choosing the same object types and structure for the card as in the 
video including visibility.

Is this a stack that originated in an earlier binary format?  If so, then that 
first bug report contains a key piece of information that I didn’t have before.

If I can get a stack that demonstrates the issue, I would like to poke around 
and see if anything jumps out.  If it is engine level, it is probably a bit out 
of my lane (although I have contributed a few lines of C++).  If it is IDE I 
may have a better chance.

Thanks,
Brian

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sean Cole wrote:
> 
>> Richard
>> Watch my videos I posted using Dropbox. It’s madness. And it’s been 
>> CONFIRMED and NOT FIXED for a very long time
> 
> There was more than one video, and several others also reported being unable 
> to reproduce the issue, so my question for Tom was seeking clarity on which 
> recipe I should be following.
> 
> With your guidance here, I've now simplified my effort to try to understand 
> the issue that prompted this thread by skipping your other posts, and have 
> reviewed only the first video.
> 
> If I get time to set up a sample stack, or if you have one to share, I'm 
> happy to try it here to see if I can help steward that toward a fix.
> 
> 
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18818
> 
> This seems directly related to the core issue of this thread, and I have 
> subscribed myself to that report. Thanks for providing the link.
> 
> 
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19455
> 
> Per Mark Waddingham's comment #2 there, this one is an engine issue, and may 
> have backward compatibility issues if changed.
> 
> Mark provides there guidance on using the relayerGroupedControls property to 
> do such scripting much more easily, as well as using the relayer command for 
> even greater ease.
> 
> It may be part of what brings about the core issue of this thread, but I'm 
> unable to determine of that's the case from the information in the report.
> 
> 
>> Probably FIXED but still marked as CONFIRMED
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21460
> 
> While status hasn't been changed since flagged as "Confirmed", another user 
> reports being unable to reproduce it in recent versions.
> 
> Is this one still affecting your work?
> 
> 
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22698
> 
> This one has a pull request submitted in May, and as far as I can tell would 
> seem fixed now.  If it's still affecting your work please note that in the 
> report, and if not please add a note there suggesting the status be changed 
> to "Resolved".
> 
> They're usually pretty good about closing bug reports related to the work 
> they're doing, but there's a lot in the DB and understandably the miss a 
> status update now and then.
> 
> 
> >  Frikin people who say ‘I can’t reproduce’ when it is clearly
> > demonstrated in a frikin video EXACTLY what is happening! Does my nut
> > in!!
> 
> Please understand that most folks here are earnestly trying to help.  I know 
> people like Brian and Jacque personally, and I feel very confident in saying 
> they only bring their best intentions to this list.
> 
> When Brian says he was unable to reproduce an issue, he isn't saying the 
> issue doesn't exist; like me, he's looking for details which might help it 
> become reproducible on his own machine so he can help further the process 
> toward a fix.
> 
> When Jacque suggests trying the App Browser as an alternative, she isn't 
> trying to undermine your desire to use the Project Browser, she's just 
> hearing very clearly that you have an immediate need based on a pressing 
> deadline, and offering a simple solution to get you through that task so your 
> project can meet with success within the time allowed.
> 
> 
> > 2c: I wasn’t after more workarounds. I want to highlight how crap
> > like this NEVER gets fixed or dealt with and continues being poop.
> > Someone (Mark, Ali, Sam, Ian, Kevin, Heather, anyone) needs to start
> > fixing shite like this that has been around the last 6 years!
> 
> Workarounds are for us; fixes are for us and the company.
> 
> We benefit with either; all we want is to finish our task and move on to the 
> next.
> 
> The company benefits most from true fixes, improving the out-of-the-box 
> experience to increase conversions while decreasing attrition.
> 
> Their priorities are theirs; mine are mine.  When I finish meeting my own 
> business' revenue and growth goals, I'll be happy to pass along to them what 
> I learned if they ask.  In the meantime, they have no shortage of guidance to 
> choose from, and much of it is mutually exclusive, so I'll leave their 
> business in their hands while I attend to my own.
> 
>

Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Brian Milby via use-livecode

“I'm just a citizen, like billions of others, looking at the 
ever-more-accelerated concentration of wealth, power, and control into the 
hands of just five people, and wondering if this is really in everyone's best 
interests...“

Probably not.  But anything considered must be done very carefully due to the 
law of unintended circumstances.  Some remedies could be worse for the consumer 
in the long run.

Sent from my iPhone

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RE: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

Mark/Panos,

Thanks for all your help, this worked like a charm! I got the userAgent from
a v12 iPad and v13 iPad. For any other iPad OS version I use the v13
version.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 9:12 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Mark Waddingham
Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

On 2020-08-14 14:01, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
> On 2020-08-14 13:31, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
>> Should I use the userAgent globally for all browser widget http(s) 
>> requests on platform = iphone?
> 
> Isn't the issue on iPad?

Hah - ignore this - I forgot to edit it when I realized 'the platform' 
returns iPhone (its the machine which distinguishes between iPad and
iPhone).

Whether to do it for all web-requests then I'm not sure - this is
twitter.com related thing as far as I can see.

It shouldn't do any harm to use the same useragent for all requests though
(although you might want to check if iPad latest iOS from Safari is
different from iPhone latest from Safari and switch on the machine if so).

I'd recommend removing this mitigation if/when twitter.com starts behaving
normally again though as you don't want to have to keep that up to date lest
it cause problems for other websites.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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RE: iOS 12 and browser widget

By the way you can put all local html files into the temp folder(or
subfolders of temp). That works for v13 and all v12 devices.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 5:23 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: iOS 12 and browser widget

On 8/14/20 3:01 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> On some but not all iOS 12 devices you must load local html files from 
> the temp folder. I went around this with Panos for a week before he 
> figured this out. See QCC 
> 22816https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22816

Oh wow. That's kind of weird, isn't it? But thanks, that helps a lot!

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: iOS 12 and browser widget


On 8/14/20 3:01 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:

On some but not all iOS 12 devices you must load local html files from the
temp folder. I went around this with Panos for a week before he figured this
out. See QCC 22816https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22816


Oh wow. That's kind of weird, isn't it? But thanks, that helps a lot!

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

On 8/14/20 9:46 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:

It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
*platform*! if YOU_choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
THEIR platform, YOU can_choose_ to go elsewhere.

We can't all choose.

Remember Mylan, the drug company that bought EpiPen, an emergency device that saved lives? It
used to cost about $90 and after obtaining the patent the new company increased the price to
$600 per unit. People who required it to save their life could no longer afford it. It was not
available elsewhere. This was not illegal but it was highly unethical, and in this case,
dangerous. (Mylan was charged with racketeering.)

Apple controls the only outlet for iOS apps. Some of us have no choice in which mobile platform
we develop for, our clients demand that we build for both.

I built a mobile app that reads NFC tags for use in hospital equipment tracking and the Android
app has been in use for almost 2 years. But Apple's rules prohibited us from releasing it for
iOS because they did not allow apps to read the UUID of NFC tags (you could read the data
partition but not the manufacturer's ID.) Hospitals could potentially have tens of thousands of
tags with no data, just the manufacturer's IDs. I contacted Apple dev support and they advanced
my inquiry up a couple of levels to a tech who seemed to sympathize but said we'd be out of
compliance and would be immediately rejected. My client reluctantly purchased used Android
phones for our test hospital because virtually all employees had iPhones. The client also did
surveys of hospitals in the US and found that almost all employees used iPhones. Hospitals were
very interested in the product but were demanding iOS apps for their workers. We couldn't
accomodate them.

I like to think my discussion with Apple dev support had an impact because some months later
the restriction was lifted.

There is often no choice to be made. Sometimes iOS users don't even know what they're missing.
My Android runs several network analyzer apps that give me comprehensive info across a wide
spectrum of network features. IOS has nothing like it; last time I looked, Apple doesn't allow
apps to access more than just the most superficial wifi information.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

Brian Milby wrote:

"Microsoft can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
_choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

Absolutely... on THEIR *XBox* platform.

Microsoft leveraged anti-competitive practices to squeeze out competition on the *PC* platform with MS DOS. Therefore Microsoft gained a monopoly on the *PC* platform by unfair business practices. Very different situation.

True, all circumstances are ultimately different from others. As
Aristotle reminds us, this is why all metaphors ultimately break down.

I'm not an antitrust litigator, nor judge with expertise in that area,
nor corporate ethicist, nor economist, nor sociologist. I'm not even a
philosopher until well into a second Mai Tai. :)

I'm just a business owner longing for the olden days when I could hang
my shingle anywhere I feel is best for my business.

I'm just a computing enthusiast who enjoys open standards, open systems,
and open communications for learning, sharing, and deploying.

I'm just a citizen, like billions of others, looking at the
ever-more-accelerated concentration of wealth, power, and control into
the hands of just five people, and wondering if this is really in
everyone's best interests...

And in recognizing the limitations of my modest roles, I admit the
limits of my relevance in this discussion on a developer's list.

Carry on where you feel it's relevant for us to make choices as
developers. I don't believe I have anything more to contribute beyond
the questions I've already presented.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Brian Milby via use-livecode

 "Microsoft can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
   _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
   platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

Absolutely... on THEIR *XBox* platform.

Microsoft leveraged anti-competitive practices to squeeze out competition on 
the *PC* platform with MS DOS.  Therefore Microsoft gained a monopoly on the 
*PC* platform by unfair business practices.  Very different situation.  Had 
Microsoft started with the full stack like Apple did, the answer would have 
been different (and history too - I doubt they would have been as successful).

Sent from my iPhone
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RE: iOS 12 and browser widget

J,

On some but not all iOS 12 devices you must load local html files from the
temp folder. I went around this with Panos for a week before he figured this
out. See QCC 22816 https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22816

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 3:51 PM
To: LiveCode Mailing List
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: iOS 12 and browser widget

I have a browser widget that loads content from the local drive on iOS
devices. It works fine with iOS 13 but fails on iOS 12. The app was built
with LC 9.6.1 rc 2. I know webkit was changed since we last built a year
ago, but shouldn't it still work with iOS 12?

When it fails, the browser widget is just blank, a plain white display. The
user is on an older device that can't update to iOS 13.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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iOS 12 and browser widget

I have a browser widget that loads content from the local drive on iOS devices. It works fine 
with iOS 13 but fails on iOS 12. The app was built with LC 9.6.1 rc 2. I know webkit was 
changed since we last built a year ago, but shouldn't it still work with iOS 12?


When it fails, the browser widget is just blank, a plain white display. The user is on an older 
device that can't update to iOS 13.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

Lagi Pittas wrote:

> I didn't mean no marketing - it's like the folks that buy books about
> the law of attraction and sit on their fata arses visualizing a BMW.
>
> You can sit in your chair visualizing all you want but the BMW, and
>  bigger house won't come to you if you don't get off your ass and meet
> the universe halfway.

Yours and mine is apparently the minority view. ;)

> What I was saying is that the market on the Iphone is huge and in 1
> place, and if your program is any good it will make it big if Apple's
> editors pick it.
> or you at least try to JV with someone who is already there.
>
> But good luck if your program does not have something that
> differentiates from all the copycat wabnnabies.

I find nearly every conversation with you eventually winds up with you 
and I coming from the same place.

Business planning fundamentals used to be recognized as such, yet too 
often overlooked these days by starry-eyed aspirants hoping that getting 
a record in a database will be their ticket to success.

My only issue here, as with Andre and the EU, isn't that we're expected 
to hang our shingle if we want to be in business.  It's the vision of a 
world where we're prohibited from hanging our shingle in any property we 
may own, required to surrender an entire third of our company to have a 
cramped space in a massive shopping mall owned and controlled by a 
cartel of two of the wealthiest and most powerful companies on earth.

Just when the disintermediation inherent in the promise of the open web 
was beginning to make itself felt to publishers and consumers alike, we 
started seeing service aggregation reserving those benefits.

App store receipts are more than a third of Apple's services revenue.

My favorite period with Apple was when they made their money on their 
own work.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Layers in PBrowser

Sean Cole wrote:

Richard

Watch my videos I posted using Dropbox. It’s madness. And it’s been CONFIRMED 
and NOT FIXED for a very long time

There was more than one video, and several others also reported being 
unable to reproduce the issue, so my question for Tom was seeking 
clarity on which recipe I should be following.

With your guidance here, I've now simplified my effort to try to 
understand the issue that prompted this thread by skipping your other 
posts, and have reviewed only the first video.

If I get time to set up a sample stack, or if you have one to share, I'm 
happy to try it here to see if I can help steward that toward a fix.

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18818

This seems directly related to the core issue of this thread, and I have 
subscribed myself to that report. Thanks for providing the link.

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19455

Per Mark Waddingham's comment #2 there, this one is an engine issue, and 
may have backward compatibility issues if changed.

Mark provides there guidance on using the relayerGroupedControls 
property to do such scripting much more easily, as well as using the 
relayer command for even greater ease.

It may be part of what brings about the core issue of this thread, but 
I'm unable to determine of that's the case from the information in the 
report.

Probably FIXED but still marked as CONFIRMED

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21460

While status hasn't been changed since flagged as "Confirmed", another 
user reports being unable to reproduce it in recent versions.

Is this one still affecting your work?

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22698

This one has a pull request submitted in May, and as far as I can tell 
would seem fixed now.  If it's still affecting your work please note 
that in the report, and if not please add a note there suggesting the 
status be changed to "Resolved".

They're usually pretty good about closing bug reports related to the 
work they're doing, but there's a lot in the DB and understandably the 
miss a status update now and then.

>  Frikin people who say ‘I can’t reproduce’ when it is clearly
> demonstrated in a frikin video EXACTLY what is happening! Does my nut
> in!!

Please understand that most folks here are earnestly trying to help.  I 
know people like Brian and Jacque personally, and I feel very confident 
in saying they only bring their best intentions to this list.

When Brian says he was unable to reproduce an issue, he isn't saying the 
issue doesn't exist; like me, he's looking for details which might help 
it become reproducible on his own machine so he can help further the 
process toward a fix.

When Jacque suggests trying the App Browser as an alternative, she isn't 
trying to undermine your desire to use the Project Browser, she's just 
hearing very clearly that you have an immediate need based on a pressing 
deadline, and offering a simple solution to get you through that task so 
your project can meet with success within the time allowed.

> 2c: I wasn’t after more workarounds. I want to highlight how crap
> like this NEVER gets fixed or dealt with and continues being poop.
> Someone (Mark, Ali, Sam, Ian, Kevin, Heather, anyone) needs to start
> fixing shite like this that has been around the last 6 years!

Workarounds are for us; fixes are for us and the company.

We benefit with either; all we want is to finish our task and move on to 
the next.

The company benefits most from true fixes, improving the out-of-the-box 
experience to increase conversions while decreasing attrition.

Their priorities are theirs; mine are mine.  When I finish meeting my 
own business' revenue and growth goals, I'll be happy to pass along to 
them what I learned if they ask.  In the meantime, they have no shortage 
of guidance to choose from, and much of it is mutually exclusive, so 
I'll leave their business in their hands while I attend to my own.

There's a maxim from a Chinese emperor many dynasties ago which I've 
found useful in all my relationships, personal and professional:

  When I feel the desire to discipline another,
  I first discipline myself two-fold.
  If I am successful,
  I then ask myself if I still feel
  the desire to discipline another.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Lagi Pittas via use-livecode

Hi Richard,

I didn't mean no marketing - it's like the folks that buy books about the
law of attraction and sit on their fata arses visualizing a BMW.

You can sit in your chair visualizing all you want but the BMW, and  bigger
house won't come to you if you don't get off your ass and meet the universe
halfway.

Same as winning the lottery - you have to have a ticket.

What I was saying is that the market on the Iphone is huge and in 1 place,
and if your program is any good it will make it big if Apple's editors pick
it.
or you at least try to JV with someone who is already there.

But good luck if your program does not have something that differentiates
from all the copycat wabnnabies.

Regards Lagi

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 19:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Lagi Pittas wrote:
>
> > If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
> > having to spend as much on advertising.
>
> Oh?
>
> The app store is a directory, not a substitute for marketing.
>
> Simply having one of a few million indistiguishably-uniform records in a
> database is insufficient to market a product.
>
> Relying on directly listing alone is the equivalent of any business
> choosing to do no marketing because they're in the phone book.
>
> I can't figure out where this notion that simply being in a directory is
> some sort of instant gold mine, but it may correlate with the number of
> answers provided here about anyone making more than $500 from ad revenue
> from apps, which was zero. ;)
>
> Mature businesses often have 2/3 to 3/4 of payroll in marketing and
> sales.  Startups can get by with half.  Less than that increases the
> odds of being one of the 60% of apps in the app store that never get
> downloaded at all.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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-- 
KIndest Regards Lagi
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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

Sean Cole wrote:

> It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use
> on THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
>
> The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung,
> Nike, AT, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.

Exactly. Let's try the same phrase with other company names we have less 
emotional attachment to:

"Microsoft can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
_choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

   "Bell Atlantic can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
_choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

   "Standard Oil can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
   _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
   platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

If the reader is sitting in a room filled with Apple logos, it may feel 
different to read that argument when applied to companies famously 
convicted of antitrust violations.

I agree it's not fair to target Apple with such inquiry, but neither 
should they get a free pass just because we may enjoy their products.

After all, the notion of Apple engaging in anti-competitive behavior is 
not merely theoretical - have we forgotten the ebook antitrust case of 
just a few years ago?:

   Apple’s liability for knowingly conspiring with book publishers
   to raise the prices of ebooks is settled once and for all,” said
   Bill Baer, head of the US Justice Department’s antitrust division.
   Baer called the price-fixing conspiracy “cynical misconduct”.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/07/apple-450-million-settlement-e-book-price-fixing-supreme-court

Your point about Google is well taken, raising a question of its own:

Ethically, what is the difference between a duopoly and a cartel?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple


Lagi Pittas wrote:


If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
having to spend as much on advertising.


Oh?

The app store is a directory, not a substitute for marketing.

Simply having one of a few million indistiguishably-uniform records in a 
database is insufficient to market a product.


Relying on directly listing alone is the equivalent of any business 
choosing to do no marketing because they're in the phone book.


I can't figure out where this notion that simply being in a directory is 
some sort of instant gold mine, but it may correlate with the number of 
answers provided here about anyone making more than $500 from ad revenue 
from apps, which was zero. ;)


Mature businesses often have 2/3 to 3/4 of payroll in marketing and 
sales.  Startups can get by with half.  Less than that increases the 
odds of being one of the 60% of apps in the app store that never get 
downloaded at all.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: More Standalone Building Weirdness...

2020-08-14 Thread JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode

What if you unload it.
Turn messages off. Load your stack and build it right away. Does that work?

Op vr 14 aug. 2020 17:25 schreef Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:

> The stack where building a Windows Standalone just stays on "Attaching
> Engine..." forever had no 'closeStack' handlers at all.
>
> I added the following:
>
> on closeStack
> -build close issue--
> if the environment is "development" and \
>   there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
>   the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
>exit closeStack
> end if
> ---
> pass closeStack
> end closeStack
>
> An there was no change in behavior. Under LC960 (I have not tried other
> versions), it builds the standalone, but then just remains on "Attaching
> engine..." and I have to force LC to exit.
>
> If no one else has seen anything like this, then it is probably
> something about the stack. I don't have problems building other
> standalones in LC960.
>
>
> On 8/13/2020 1:06 PM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> > Put this in every stack you build, and i mean the "build close issue"
> part
> > in the on closeStack Handler
> >
> > It was in one of the release notes.
> >
> > Maybe that is holding your build to complete
> >
> >
> >
> > on shutdownRequest
> > answer question "Are you sure you want to stop?" with "Y" or "N"
> > if it is "Y" then
> >pass shutdownRequest
> > end if
> > end shutdownRequest
> >
> > on closeStack
> > -build close issue--
> > if the environment is "development" and \
> >   there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
> >   the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
> >exit closeStack
> > end if
> > ---
> > lock messages
> > quit --triggers shutdownrequestmessage, if not handled then it hangs
> > pass closeStack
> > end closeStack
> >
> > Op wo 12 aug. 2020 om 20:32 schreef Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> >> I have a stack that when I build into a Windows Standalone (only
> >> Windows) in LC 9.6.0 under Windows, the dialog that says "Attaching
> >> Engine..." never finishes.
> >>
> >> The Standalone gets built and runs properly, but the "Attaching
> >> engine..." dialog in the building process never finishes (waiting over
> >> an hour for a tiny stack) and I have to bring up teh Task Manager and
> >> force the LiveCode app to exit.
> >>
> >> Anyone seen anything like this? Have any idea what causes it?
> >>
> >> Since the app does get built and runs fine, and I am under a deadline, I
> >> don't really have time to troubleshoot it. It is easier to just force LC
> >> to exit, but if someone has seen this and knows the cause, please let me
> >> know.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Andre Garzia via use-livecode

Also folks, EPIC didn't do that because "they thought they could get away
with it". These are all strategic attacks at Apple at the same time that
the EU is looking to maybe mount an antitrust case against them. So you
have multiple companies taking action that will either prompt a reaction
from Apple and make Apple look as bad as it actually is, or set a precedent
that can be explored later. Facebook note about App Stores, Protonmail,
EPIC, all that has a reason to be happening now. I believe soon other
companies will pull similar stunts and Apple will yield their banhammer.
Then these companies can use their cases as bullet points for the antitrust
case that is brewing.

This was not a "spur of the moment" thing for EPIC. Remember the size of
EPIC and how fast it came out with the "nineteen eighty fortnite" ad that
mimics Apple's 1984 ad against IBM. That Ad took a long time to be
produced, there is no reason to make it if you're not sure that Apple will
remove your app. This is a strategic attack to mount antitrust case, two
massive companies spitting at each other.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 18:02, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
> People are missing something here.
>
> Apple allows programs from Argos, Sams, Amazon (not books) , Free software
> access for the yearly fee of $99.
>
> They take 30% the FIRST years and subsequently 15% - that second figure to
> me is the important one.
>
> You have access to that market and IF you have a successful product you
> reap the ongoing benefits.
>
> If You sell 100 Apps in the first year and you are charging $5 I
> don't think it matters whether you get 70% or 100% your product has failed.
>
> If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
> having to spend as much on advertising.
>
> The elephant in the room is Google - they charge 30% by just  copying
> Apple's charges and because Google hasn't budged in 12 years Apple has no
> reason to either.
>
> A bit of maths 100% of Zilch is still Zilch. (expletive deleted for the
> snowflakes/woke/offended crowd ;-) )
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
>
> As Sean said :-
>
> "If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
> high-ground (which does not exist)"
>
> If I were a betting man i'd say EPIC will blink first.
>
> Lagi
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:45, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> > *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
> > THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
> >
> > The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung,
> Nike,
> > AT, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.
> >
> > If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> > potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> > nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some
> moral
> > high-ground (which does not exist).
> >
> > Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> > crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including
> iOS.
> > They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> > can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> > one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> > purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there.
> I'm
> > sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> > rattles laying around their prams. ;)
> >
> > Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
> > order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
> > Better the 'devils' you know for now!
> >
> > Sean
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of
> apps
> > > have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when
> > > doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg
> > Amazon)
> > > they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are
> > > required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got
> > > booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they
> > would
> > > get away with it.
> > >
> > > Kee Nethery
> > >
> > > > On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> > > > because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then
> > Apple
> > > > don't get

Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Lagi Pittas via use-livecode

Hi

People are missing something here.

Apple allows programs from Argos, Sams, Amazon (not books) , Free software
access for the yearly fee of $99.

They take 30% the FIRST years and subsequently 15% - that second figure to
me is the important one.

You have access to that market and IF you have a successful product you
reap the ongoing benefits.

If You sell 100 Apps in the first year and you are charging $5 I
don't think it matters whether you get 70% or 100% your product has failed.

If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
having to spend as much on advertising.

The elephant in the room is Google - they charge 30% by just  copying
Apple's charges and because Google hasn't budged in 12 years Apple has no
reason to either.

A bit of maths 100% of Zilch is still Zilch. (expletive deleted for the
snowflakes/woke/offended crowd ;-) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

As Sean said :-

"If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
high-ground (which does not exist)"

If I were a betting man i'd say EPIC will blink first.

Lagi




On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:45, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
> THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
>
> The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung, Nike,
> AT, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.
>
> If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
> high-ground (which does not exist).
>
> Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
> They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there. I'm
> sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> rattles laying around their prams. ;)
>
> Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
> order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
> Better the 'devils' you know for now!
>
> Sean
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps
> > have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when
> > doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg
> Amazon)
> > they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are
> > required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got
> > booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they
> would
> > get away with it.
> >
> > Kee Nethery
> >
> > > On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> > > because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then
> Apple
> > > don't get 30%
> >
>
>
> > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > >>
> > >> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that
> is
> > >> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
> > >> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you
> > can't
> > >> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it
> > harder
> > >> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users
> > because it
> > >> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
> >
>
>
> > >> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> BrianM wrote:
> >  One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point
> of
> > >>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
> > >>>
> > >>> True.
> > >>> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> > >>> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are
> > >> there
> > >>> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of
> consumers.
> > >> Or
> > >>> our end users.
> > >>>
> > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > Consumer
> > >>> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers
> are
> > >>> willing to

Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Andre Garzia via use-livecode

Sean,

> Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
> They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there.
I'm
> sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> rattles laying around their prams. ;)

I am talking specifically about iOS and about the fact that every single
browser on iOS is running the same engine as Safari, even Firefox. Believe
me, I know browsers more than most people on this list. I know Brave
founders; we had beers together last year. I actually met and in some cases
even collaborated with engineers from every single major browser. Heck, a
feature I made for Firefox became so popular that Google adopted the same
feature and came to tell me that in person during the DWeb Summit 2018.

Apple doesn't allow any other engine on iOS, every single browser is
WebKit. Chrome, Brave, Firefox, they are all WebKit on iOS. You can add
features on top of it, but you can't replace the engine with your engine.
So Google can't ship Blink and Mozilla can't ship Gecko on iOS. We used to
joke that Firefox for iOS should be called MozSafari. The reason those
companies are shipping browsers on iOS even though they are prohibited from
shipping their own engines is because they want to:

1 - They have a presence in the platform. This is a marketing/strategic
reason to keep your brand awareness strong with that platform users.
2 - So they can add their own services on top such as bookmark
synchronizing. This is beneficial for the users and the vendor. The fear
vendors have that the users might migrate to full Safari on mobile and then
on Desktop as well is reason enough to compell them to work even with these
limitations.

It used to be worse. Not long ago Apple had an engine that you were allowed
to use for your apps and used a more modern one for Safari on iOS. That
caused every single other browser to perform worse than Safari on iOS. That
is no longer the case but it was true up to not a couple years ago. As for
engines, Apple took KHTML from the KDE project and created WebKit and
Safari. Google picked WebKit and had a divergence with Apple, so they
created Blink. With the exception of Firefox which uses Gecko, and Safari
that uses WebKit, most of the other browsers are all Blink based, that
means that Chrome, Microsoft Edge, Opera, Vivaldi, Samsung Internet, are
all running the same engine. I wrote about it in 2018:

  https://andregarzia.com/2018/12/while-we-blink-we-lose-the-web.html

This is a problem and it plays a role in the whole antitrust and fair play
conversation regarding iOS. Reading things like "It is their platform, you
can either agree or go somewhere else" is naive. The lives of millions are
passing through these devices, we need better legal tools to make companies
accountable. If Microsoft tried to pull such a stunt of not allowing any
other browser engine on Windows, the EU commission would wrath would be
upon them as fast as lightning, iOS shouldn't be different.

Best
Andre

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:46, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
> THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
>
> The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung, Nike,
> AT, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.
>
> If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
> high-ground (which does not exist).
>
> Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
> They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there. I'm
> sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> rattles laying around their prams. ;)
>
> Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
> order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
> Better the 'devils' you know for now!
>
> Sean
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps
> > have done it for

Re: More Standalone Building Weirdness...

2020-08-14 Thread Paul Dupuis via use-livecode

The stack where building a Windows Standalone just stays on "Attaching 
Engine..." forever had no 'closeStack' handlers at all.


I added the following:

on closeStack
   -build close issue--
   if the environment is "development" and \
 there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
 the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
  exit closeStack
   end if
   ---
   pass closeStack
end closeStack

An there was no change in behavior. Under LC960 (I have not tried other 
versions), it builds the standalone, but then just remains on "Attaching 
engine..." and I have to force LC to exit.


If no one else has seen anything like this, then it is probably 
something about the stack. I don't have problems building other 
standalones in LC960.



On 8/13/2020 1:06 PM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:

Put this in every stack you build, and i mean the "build close issue" part
in the on closeStack Handler

It was in one of the release notes.

Maybe that is holding your build to complete



on shutdownRequest
answer question "Are you sure you want to stop?" with "Y" or "N"
if it is "Y" then
   pass shutdownRequest
end if
end shutdownRequest

on closeStack
-build close issue--
if the environment is "development" and \
  there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
  the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
   exit closeStack
end if
---
lock messages
quit --triggers shutdownrequestmessage, if not handled then it hangs
pass closeStack
end closeStack

Op wo 12 aug. 2020 om 20:32 schreef Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:


I have a stack that when I build into a Windows Standalone (only
Windows) in LC 9.6.0 under Windows, the dialog that says "Attaching
Engine..." never finishes.

The Standalone gets built and runs properly, but the "Attaching
engine..." dialog in the building process never finishes (waiting over
an hour for a tiny stack) and I have to bring up teh Task Manager and
force the LiveCode app to exit.

Anyone seen anything like this? Have any idea what causes it?

Since the app does get built and runs fine, and I am under a deadline, I
don't really have time to troubleshoot it. It is easier to just force LC
to exit, but if someone has seen this and knows the cause, please let me
know.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode

Hi all,

It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
*platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.

The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung, Nike,
AT, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.

If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
high-ground (which does not exist).

Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there. I'm
sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
rattles laying around their prams. ;)

Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
Better the 'devils' you know for now!

Sean

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps
> have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when
> doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg Amazon)
> they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are
> required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got
> booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they would
> get away with it.
>
> Kee Nethery
>
> > On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> > because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then Apple
> > don't get 30%
>


> >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> >>
> >> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that is
> >> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
> >> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you
> can't
> >> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it
> harder
> >> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users
> because it
> >> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
>


> >> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> BrianM wrote:
>  One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of
> >>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
> >>>
> >>> True.
> >>> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> >>> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are
> >> there
> >>> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of consumers.
> >> Or
> >>> our end users.
> >>>
> >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> Consumer
> >>> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers are
> >>> willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
> >>>
> >>> Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system. But
> >>> that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic
> >> one.
> >>> And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is
> nothing
> >>> iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want
> to
> >>> buy into Apple’s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers can
> >>> choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
> >>> consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen if
> >>> Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's
> >> strict
> >>> proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
> >>>
> >>> Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us jump
> >>> through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly
> >>> changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is it?
> Or
> >>> is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?
> >>>
> >>> There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
> >>> outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you
> think
> >>> you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your
> app
> >>> on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
> >>>
> >>> The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little or
> >> no
> >>> money, regardless of OS.
> >>> So is it

Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

2020-08-14 Thread Kee Nethery via use-livecode

Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps have 
done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when doing so. 
Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg Amazon) they cannot 
use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are required to use IAP. 
Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got booted. Nothing surprising 
about it other than that they thought they would get away with it.

Kee Nethery

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then Apple
> don't get 30%
> 
> https://tweakers.net/nieuws/170916/apple-verwijdert-fortnite-uit-app-store.html
> It's in dutch but you get the message.
> or this one
> https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21366438/apple-fortnite-ios-app-store-violations-epic-payments
> 
> Op zo 9 aug. 2020 om 16:52 schreef Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
>> 
>> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that is
>> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
>> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you can't
>> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it harder
>> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users because it
>> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
>> 
>> Since you can't sideload apps, you as a user need to have Apple permission
>> before installing software on the device you purchased and should own. You
>> as a developer are allowed to sell software outside of Apple's blessing,
>> even if you have customers interested in the software you make. Apple is a
>> gatekeeper and a very picky one.
>> 
>> Gatekeepers are harmful to consumers and sellers. Since you as a developer
>> can't simply compile software and sell it own your own page without Apple
>> double blessing, you're not really in control of your platform and Apple
>> may exercise the right to cut you out of the platform at any time. This is
>> harmful.
>> 
>>> Consumer behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary,
>> consumers are willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services
>> 
>> That is totally not true because you can't measure it. You can't measure
>> "iOS with a more open ecosystem" vs "iOS with its current draconian
>> ecosystem" because that you don't have the more open version to match it
>> against the current one. The choice here is not between Apple and Android.
>> Apple could still offer the same software, services, and hardware, and be
>> more open. People would still choose them. No one chooses the option with
>> less options and gatekeepers if they have an alternative. The tight
>> integration between iOS and macOS devices is wonderful and people are happy
>> to pay a premium for such quality. If you ask any Apple user why they buy
>> Apple, no one will answer: "Because I like the way they don't allow
>> developers to compete with Apple itself" which is why the EU and other
>> companies are crying wolf in the direction of one infinite loop. People
>> will say they choose Apple because of the attention to detail, the quality
>> of service, hardware, and software, none of which would be gone if Apple
>> was more open.
>> 
>> The key to understand this is that all that you like about Apple can still
>> be there, including the App store. If you want to stay in an environment
>> like what we have today, it should be possible to do so. But you should
>> also have options for when you want to step outside. There should be
>> alternative stores or alternative ways to distribute software.
>> 
>> I'm not saying "burn iOS and Apple". I'm saying the current practices
>> benefit no one but Apple and are harmful to a healthy ecosystem. They could
>> still be Apple and not be a bully. For example, the need of notarizing apps
>> is going to make distributing FOSS on macOS a bit harder. Once Apple moves
>> to its own ARM CPUs, it will be harder for every third-party vendor to
>> compete with Apple solutions as they'll be able to cram custom silicon like
>> T2 and lock down the machine in a way that has not been done in ages.
>> 
>> If I was LC I'd be throwing some more people into making sure LC runs
>> really well under Linux and Windows, both of which are second class
>> citizens when compared to macOS. Heck the IDE under windows is horribly
>> slow, I have no idea how it performs under Linux. When dealing with Apple
>> you always need a plan b.
>> 
>> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> BrianM wrote:
 One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of
>>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
>>>

Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

2020-08-14 Thread Mark Waddingham via use-livecode


On 2020-08-14 14:01, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2020-08-14 13:31, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
Should I use the userAgent globally for all browser widget http(s) 
requests

on platform = iphone?


Isn't the issue on iPad?


Hah - ignore this - I forgot to edit it when I realized 'the platform' 
returns iPhone (its the machine which distinguishes between iPad and 
iPhone).


Whether to do it for all web-requests then I'm not sure - this is 
twitter.com related thing as far as I can see.


It shouldn't do any harm to use the same useragent for all requests 
though (although you might want to check if iPad latest iOS from Safari 
is different from iPhone latest from Safari and switch on the machine if 
so).


I'd recommend removing this mitigation if/when twitter.com starts 
behaving normally again though as you don't want to have to keep that up 
to date lest it cause problems for other websites.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

2020-08-14 Thread Mark Waddingham via use-livecode


On 2020-08-14 13:31, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:

Thanks Panos and Mark!

So... to recap..
1) get the userAgent in Safari on my 10.14.6 Mac
2) in App (If the platform="iphone" then set userAgent to this value).


Pretty much - although I recommend not using the userAgent string from a 
mac. Instead, get the userAgent string from an iPad which allows you to 
access twitter.com through the browser widget. Just in case anything 
mac-ish in the user agent string causes twitter.com to do something 
different (e.g. specialize for desktop rather than mobile).


Should I use the userAgent globally for all browser widget http(s) 
requests

on platform = iphone?


Isn't the issue on iPad?


Will this affect any other tsNet functions?


The browser widget uses WKWebView which uses system HTTP functionality 
so tsNet isn't involved.



Should it be reset back to empty for any reason?


I can't think of one.


Should I file a bug report?


No - this isn't anything we can do anything about. I strongly suspect 
the iPad issue your client is having is one of;
  - it isn't running the very latest iOS version, and Twitter is 
blocking the default userAgent string for that version and older ones 
which come from WKWebView
  - Twitter's (new?) block-list isn't actually correct and not taking 
into account enough variations (e.g. those coming from WKWebView).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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RE: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13