Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bob Sneidar wrote:

>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 12:01 , Randy Hengst wrote:
>>
>> Wow, if I set the cantSelect of my background graphic to true AND set
>> the grc to disabled…
>
> grc is not a token.

But is is, first introduced to the xTalk world by Bill Appleton in 
SuperCard 1.0, following the pattern established by HyperCard:


button = btn
field = fld
background = bg
card = ard

MC added a new one, almost too sparse for my tastes yet I don't mind 
using it:


scrollbar = sb

There are others as well.


> I guess you are using an acronym. I hate acronyms. ;-)

I don't mind acronyms, as long as any not in widespread common use are 
defined within the text later using the acronym.


There are just too many TLAs to memorize all of them, and since that one 
might mean anything from "Temporary Living Allowance" to "Top Level 
Architecture" it would be useful if I noted at least once at the outset 
that I mean "Three-Letter Acronym". :)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

so then disable the grc, not set the grc to disabled. Got it. 

Bob S


> On Aug 28, 2017, at 16:20 , Brian Milby via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> grc is a synonym for graphic actually


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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

ok I read back on the posts and that does in fact work. At that point you can 
set the geometry of any object so that no matter what you do with the size of 
the window they will adjust to compensate. I LIKE IT!!!

Bob S


> On Aug 28, 2017, at 16:15 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> grc is not a token. I guess you are using an acronym. I hate acronyms. ;-)
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 12:01 , Randy Hengst via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Wow, if I set the cantSelect of my background graphic to true AND set the 
>> grc to disabled… I can do exactly what I was talking about… nice. Both have 
>> to be set… just using one or the other doesn’t work.
>> 
>> Thanks Paul.
> 
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

grc is a synonym for graphic actually

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> grc is not a token. I guess you are using an acronym. I hate acronyms. ;-)
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Aug 28, 2017, at 12:01 , Randy Hengst via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wow, if I set the cantSelect of my background graphic to true AND set
> the grc to disabled… I can do exactly what I was talking about… nice. Both
> have to be set… just using one or the other doesn’t work.
> >
> > Thanks Paul.
>
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

grc is not a token. I guess you are using an acronym. I hate acronyms. ;-)

Bob S


> On Aug 28, 2017, at 12:01 , Randy Hengst via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Wow, if I set the cantSelect of my background graphic to true AND set the grc 
> to disabled… I can do exactly what I was talking about… nice. Both have to be 
> set… just using one or the other doesn’t work.
> 
> Thanks Paul.

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

RichardG  wrote:
> 
>> I have used cantSelect before to stop selection of a background image
>> that has lots of objects on top. It means you can drag select them and
>> won?t accidentally click-drag and move your background.
> 
> How?


Disable it in addition to setting the cantselect.

Jim Lambert
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Randy Hengst via use-livecode]

Wow, if I set the cantSelect of my background graphic to true AND set the grc 
to disabled… I can do exactly what I was talking about… nice. Both have to be 
set… just using one or the other doesn’t work.

Thanks Paul.

> On Aug 28, 2017, at 12:23 PM, Paul Hibbert via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Aug 28, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Randy Hengst via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
>> 
>> I would find it very handy if when the cantSelect is true, you could still 
>> drag to select objects that are above the control with cantSelect true… 
>> 
>> In other words, the ability to select the other controls with click and drag 
>> when the initial click is within the rect of the control (usually a grc for 
>> me) that has cantSelect set to true.
>> 
>> It certainly is possible to select the controls above the control with 
>> cantSelect true… but only if the initial click is outside that rect.
>> 
>> I hope all of that makes sense.
>> 
> 
> AFAIK you can achieve this if you also set the disabled of the control to 
> true.
> 
> Paul
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Paul Hibbert wrote:

> On Aug 28, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Randy Hengst wrote:
>>
>> I would find it very handy if when the cantSelect is true, you could
>> still drag to select objects that are above the control with
>> cantSelect true…
>>
>> In other words, the ability to select the other controls with click
>> and drag when the initial click is within the rect of the control
>> (usually a grc for me) that has cantSelect set to true.
>>
>> It certainly is possible to select the controls above the control
>> with cantSelect true… but only if the initial click is outside that
>> rect.
>
> AFAIK you can achieve this if you also set the disabled of the control
> to true.

Nice - thanks.

For things like buttons and fields where appearances change based on the 
value of the disabled property this may or may not work well depending 
on the specifics of the context.


But those are among the rarer of this already-rarely-used property.  A 
more common use case would be as a background in a group, as Monte 
described, and since the graying effect that comes with disabling can be 
offset by brightening the colors and/or changing the ink, this could 
work well enough.


So:

cantSelect = alwaysBrowse

cantSelect + disabled + some combinations of adjusted colors and inks = 
cantSelect


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Ah! Yeah that makes my particular application unusable. I was hoping to have 
different sections of a card with different background images, and be able to 
drag-select everythign but the background images. Currently I have the 
background pattern of a card set to a hidden image, then I have other images as 
locked controls for the other sections. 

I suppose I could create a single image of the three and use that as the 
background pattern... right up until I need to resize the stack for some reason 
or other. 

What might be a possibility is to set only certain rects of the background 
pattern of a card to an image. Something like:

set the backgroundPattern of the topcard of this stack to 123 top -- only 
repeat the pattern once at the top of the card
set the backgroundPattern of the topcard of this stack to 123 area 0,0,500,86 
-- repeat the pattern within the specified rect

Subsequent commands would "overwrite" prior ones so you could set the pattern 
for the entire card, then put patterns over the top of that. 

Just a thot...

> On Aug 28, 2017, at 10:23 , Paul Hibbert via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> It certainly is possible to select the controls above the control with 
>> cantSelect true… but only if the initial click is outside that rect.

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Paul Hibbert via use-livecode]

On Aug 28, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Randy Hengst via use-livecode 
 wrote:
> 
> I would find it very handy if when the cantSelect is true, you could still 
> drag to select objects that are above the control with cantSelect true… 
> 
> In other words, the ability to select the other controls with click and drag 
> when the initial click is within the rect of the control (usually a grc for 
> me) that has cantSelect set to true.
> 
> It certainly is possible to select the controls above the control with 
> cantSelect true… but only if the initial click is outside that rect.
> 
> I hope all of that makes sense.
> 

AFAIK you can achieve this if you also set the disabled of the control to true.

Paul
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Monte Goulding wrote:

> I have used cantSelect before to stop selection of a background image
> that has lots of objects on top. It means you can drag select them and
> won’t accidentally click-drag and move your background.

How?

As designed, what we call "cantSelect" works like "alwaysBrowse", and 
both as documented as in practice it seems to do exactly that, which 
prevents drag-selecting across any object that has cantSelect set to 
true in order to attempt to select other objects which may be on top of it.


Is there some combination of properties that turn the alwaysBrowse 
behavior into a true cantSelect?


It would be very desirable to have such a thing, since we could then 
make things like a page-size graphic as a background for a drawing 
region, and drag-select across it.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Well, cantSelect is a step toward a solution for making multi-mode 
regions within a window, as I noted just above the section of my post 
you quoted:


   Scott Raney added the cantSelect property after a long discussion
   I had with him about building custom drawing environments.

   I had originally suggested to him that we extend the tool property
   to be local to groups (similar to the flexibility SuperCard provides
   with the tool being local to a window, years later submitted to
   RunRev as BZ#623)), and he found that interesting but more work than
   was available at that moment in the release cycle.

   So instead he came up with the cantSelect property as a workaround
   to tide us over in the meantime.



But like any hastily-added workaround, in practice it turns out to be 
only slightly less cumbersome than not having it at all, at least for 
the original intended purpose.


Imagine a common drawing app such as you describe, with a drawing region 
in a group occupying most of the window and a set of controls in a 
toolbar group to change tools, select colors and line widths, etc.


Let's explore how this plays out:

1. Drag selection

At first glance things seem pretty nice, you can drag-select within the 
drawing group, and also click the toolbar buttons.


But then you'll notice that the user can also drag a marquee in the 
toolbar group, and though it won't allow selection of any of the 
controls there (assuming they've all had their "cantSelect" set to true) 
the ability to drag a selection marquee is odd and confusing.



2. Object creation

For manipulating existing objects within the drawing region group, the 
setup works fine, allowing users to move and resize objects nicely.


And you have a toolbar that allows you to select object creation tools, 
so you're excited by the prospect of dragging out new controls within 
the drawing region.


Except you can't.  Since tool modes are global in LC, when you choose 
something like the graphic tool the entire window is the recipient of 
the object creation gestures, and as such will create newly dragged out 
objects above (outside) of the drawing region group.


Once created, this may only become confusing when the drawing region 
group is scrolled.


If created in a position that overlaps the drawing region's scrollbar, 
that they are above and outside the group is immediately evident.


We could turn on the editBackgound, but doing so will cause the toolbar 
region and even the drawing region's own scrollbars to disappear.


A workaround is to trap newGraphic and relayer it, after first being 
careful to set the relayerGroups to true and then set it back again when 
you're done.  This ultimately places the object within the group, but 
doesn't explain to the user why the object was first seen overlapping 
the scrollbar and extending beyond the drawing region, and is now 
clipped within the drawing region.  In the end the result is okay, but 
each time they make an object near the edges of the drawing region the 
app momentarily feels a bit broken.



3. Ancillary windows

Many apps will have other windows beyond the document, such as About, 
Preferences, etc.


If you open those in non-toplevel modes (such as modeless) they're fine, 
since LC's global tool mode only affects toplevel windows.


But often we have ancillary windows as toplevel, perhaps different views 
to other data in the document (consider an inventory list reflecting 
things drawn in the drawing window).


In such cases you'd have to carefully set the cantSelect of literally 
every control in every stack other than the ones inside the drawing 
region group, and even then you'd have to accept the user's ability to 
drag-select marquees across the surface of any of them, even those where 
such selection would not be in any way relevant.



Workaround to deal with the workaround:

After experiencing these and other challenges in trying to reproduce the 
sort of SampleDraw app so easily made in SuperCard with its local tool 
modes, the best workaround I've found is to not employ the cantSelect 
workaround at all, since something more complete is needed.


Whether or not one uses the cantSelect for toolbar objects in a drawing 
window, what's really needed is to turn off the global pointer tool and 
use the browse tool whenever the pointer it outside of the drawing group.


I hadn't pursued this at first for fear of the user of seeing their 
selected objects become deselected, sometimes annoying and other times 
making it impossible to use a button or menu outside the drawing group 
which would act on the selection.


But it turns out that MC/LC allows selection handles to be shown 
regardless of the current global tool mode.


So the workaround for the workaround is to track mouseMove, and when the 
mouse exits the drawing region you:


1. Get the selectedObjects
2. Change the global tool to browse 

Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/28/2017 07:53 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

But since the property that more accurately behaves as AlwaysBrowseMode 
is currently called "cantSelection", what might we name a property that 
was limited to non-selection without invoking a tool mode different than 
the current otherwise-global pointer tool?




Heh. Well, since the always-in-browse-mode property is called cantSelect 
then I suppose the can't-select property should be called alwaysBrowse.



--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

That would be useful to me now that I think about it. 

Bob S


> On Aug 27, 2017, at 13:36 , Monte Goulding via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have used cantSelect before to stop selection of a background image that 
> has lots of objects on top. It means you can drag select them and won’t 
> accidentally click-drag and move your background. It’s better than 
> lockLocation because of drag-select.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Monte

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Randy Hengst wrote:

> I would find it very handy if when the cantSelect is true, you could
> still drag to select objects that are above the control with
> cantSelect true…
>
> In other words, the ability to select the other controls with click
> and drag when the initial click is within the rect of the control
> (usually a grc for me) that has cantSelect set to true.
>
> It certainly is possible to select the controls above the control with
> cantSelect true… but only if the initial click is outside that rect.
>
> I hope all of that makes sense.

I does, and indeed it would be nice to have.

But since the property that more accurately behaves as AlwaysBrowseMode 
is currently called "cantSelection", what might we name a property that 
was limited to non-selection without invoking a tool mode different than 
the current otherwise-global pointer tool?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Randy Hengst via use-livecode]

I would find it very handy if when the cantSelect is true, you could still drag 
to select objects that are above the control with cantSelect true… 

In other words, the ability to select the other controls with click and drag 
when the initial click is within the rect of the control (usually a grc for me) 
that has cantSelect set to true.

It certainly is possible to select the controls above the control with 
cantSelect true… but only if the initial click is outside that rect.

I hope all of that makes sense.

> On Aug 27, 2017, at 5:04 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> In development it can be handy if you have an object that shouldn't move or 
> change, but you want to drag a selection around surrounding objects to select 
> them.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> 
> On August 27, 2017 3:31:22 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On 08/27/2017 01:10 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>> CantSelect is false by default, and since it isn't in the project
>>> browser, new users are unlikely to know about it. They're also unlikely
>>> to dig into the Plugins menu to show the app browser, so mistakes would
>>> probably be rare.
>> 
>> I don't think I've ever used the cantSelect property, and I've been
>> having a hard time trying to come up with a use case for it. Can you
>> clue me in as to a situation where this might be useful?
>> 
>> --
>>  Mark Wieder
>>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>> 
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

Richard:

Hmmm, this could be really useful

a whole responsive palette of control on the side of a card, (instead of a 
separate palette stack) while continuing to dev in the main region.  useful for 
dev.

In fact doesn't  this solve  a core UX, that is not "ancient"by any means?:

A drawing region with controls on the side/bottom. and all you have to do is 
turn on the pointer. (having preset all the other controls to 
cantSelect/AlwaysBrowseMode.)

I actually have a use case for this right in front of me if it works on Mobile.

BR



On 8/27/17, 1:29 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

In addition to what Jacque noted there's something more that can be very 
important in some contexts:

It doesn't just prevent the object from being acted on by the pointer 
tool, but moreover always acts as though its own object-local tool mode 
is the browse tool, regardless of whatever other tool is in effect.

"CantSelect" is a very Raney name; "AlwaysBrowseMode" would be more 
descriptive.

This means your object will get all the messages you'd expect to get 
with the browse tool regardless of the current global tool property, but 
only for that one object.

This can be useful for contexts in which you want to allow the user to 
use the pointer tool, but also provide a toolbar or other controls they 
can use to select shapes, colors, etc.

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

this is a really useful prop… too bad it is not exposed in the PI

"use case for it" 

OH Boy!  us page lay people lock background objects all the time… once a subset 
of elements are "locked down" design wise.. you don't what them moving about. 
I'll be using this a lot now that I found it…  But I guess the only UI in the 
IDE is to switch to  AB and toggle it in that column… 

that definitely qualifies as "mystery meat UX" 

is there an enhancement request  to expose this in the property inspector for 
all controls?  till then we can add it to a tool set  to toogle cantSelect for 
the selectedObject()


 

On 8/27/17, 10:37 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Monte Goulding via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

>I don't think I've ever used the cantSelect property, and I've been having 
a hard time trying to come up with a use case for it. Can you clue me in as to 
a situation where this might be useful?




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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

PR submitted...
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/pull/1713
http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20289

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Brian Milby  wrote:

> I think that may be better.
>
> Since JavaScript doesn't preserve pre-sort order, I think additional
> comparisons are needed to maintain the alpha sort.
>
> While we can use a trailing "\b" to match word ending (makes exact word be
> prioritized), using something like a quote character may be "easier"
> (replace " with \b in the regex) to allow exact match searches.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
>
>
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/27/2017 06:21 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:


The pointer tool, like any of the tools, is just an interaction mode.

Any capabilities beyond manipulating layout are defined by your scripts.



OK - so we're talking about outside the IDE. So the cantSelect property 
comes into play in a standalone app when you select the pointer tool and 
then define the allowable actions.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Wieder wrote:

> On 08/27/2017 04:49 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Drawing != development.
>
> Maybe I'm only partially understanding this then. My take on this is
> that the cantSelect property really only comes into play when the
> edit tool (or whatever it's called these days if it's not
> development) is active.

Aye, there's the rub: the tool's name is "pointer", introduced into our 
family of languages by SuperCard in 1989 and continued into MC when it 
was born in '92.  The name was chosen to reflect the cursor image choice 
that goes with it, a more traditional app-like look from the 
HyperCard-specific browse mode with its hand icon.


Just about any vector layout program (MacDraw, PageMaker, Word, etc.) 
uses a mode like that for selecting, moving, and resizing vector objects.



> So you have full edit capability, and that goes beyond just
> drawing or moving objects around on the screen.

What is "full edit capability"?

The pointer tool, like any of the tools, is just an interaction mode.

Any capabilities beyond manipulating layout are defined by your scripts.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/27/2017 04:49 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Mark Wieder wrote:

On 08/27/2017 01:42 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote:

I use this feature extensively in an app where there is card that has
objects that users can select to change properties (line width, color,
font, etc) and at the top of the window is a toolbar with font menu,
etc. I don't want the user to be able to select the toolbar controls and
accidentally delete them or alter them, so I use the cantSelect property
on those.


So you put the user in development mode? Sounds dangerous.


Drawing != development.


Maybe I'm only partially understanding this then. My take on this is 
that the cantSelect property really only comes into play when the edit 
tool (or whatever it's called these days if it's not development) is 
active. So you have full edit capability, and that goes beyond just 
drawing or moving objects around on the screen.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Wieder wrote:

On 08/27/2017 01:42 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote:

I use this feature extensively in an app where there is card that has
objects that users can select to change properties (line width, color,
font, etc) and at the top of the window is a toolbar with font menu,
etc. I don't want the user to be able to select the toolbar controls and
accidentally delete them or alter them, so I use the cantSelect property
on those.


So you put the user in development mode? Sounds dangerous.


Drawing != development.

MacDraw != MPW.

From the root tongue HyperTalk, through SuperTalk, OMO, Gain, to 
today's LiveCode, xTalks provide a wide range of tools, including 
button, field, browse, and others.


What distinguishes these from development isn't that they're used at 
all, but how.


After all, all code editors are fields, but not all fields are code editors.



On 08/27/2017 01:36 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:


I have used cantSelect before to stop selection of a background image that has 
lots of objects on top. It means you can drag select them and won’t 
accidentally click-drag and move your background. It’s better than lockLocation 
because of drag-select.


Thanks. That makes sense. Kind of like having editable and non-editable
layers.


Now you got it.  Having different tools has been useful since 
HyperCard's premier in 1987, and with LC's richer toolset only more so.



Monte's particular use, however, is compromised by not having a true 
cantSelect property, instead getting by with one that's really a 
control-specific tool mode, but limited to only those controls that 
aren't groups and to only one tool, the browse tool:


In the scenario he describes, the presence of an object that spans the 
drawing region but has it's AlwaysBrowse ("cantSelect") set to true 
means that he can't drag across it to marquee-select other objects.


In such a setup (I've made a few myself over the years) you must either 
limit multi-object selections to shift-clicking each one individually, 
or write code that emulates marquee selection in the image object using 
the browse tool.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

I sent this reply once already, several hours ago.  It hasn't arrived, 
so I thought I'd try again.  If you get two copies, I apologize on 
behalf of the listserver:


On 8/27/17 1:09 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:
> JQ wrote
>  CantSelect disallows selection by the edit tool, mostly used in
>  development, but doesn't change the message path.
>
> Hmm.. doesn't this comprise a Noobie Gotcha?
>
> cantSelect is not exposed in the PI for any object.


A little background may be helpful:

Scott Raney added the cantSelect property after a long discussion I had 
with him about building custom drawing environments.


I had originally suggested to him that we extend the tool property to be 
local to groups (similar to the flexibility SuperCard provides with the 
tool being local to a window, years later submitted to RunRev as 
BZ#623)), and he found that interesting but more work than was available 
at that moment in the release cycle.


So instead he came up with the cantSelect property as a workaround to 
tide us over in the meantime.


In addition to what Jacque noted there's something more that can be very 
important in some contexts:


It doesn't just prevent the object from being acted on by the pointer 
tool, but moreover always acts as though its own object-local tool mode 
is the browse tool, regardless of whatever other tool is in effect.


"CantSelect" is a very Raney name; "AlwaysBrowseMode" would be more 
descriptive.


This means your object will get all the messages you'd expect to get 
with the browse tool regardless of the current global tool property, but 
only for that one object.


This can be useful for contexts in which you want to allow the user to 
use the pointer tool, but also provide a toolbar or other controls they 
can use to select shapes, colors, etc.


This seemed like a good idea at the time, but in practice is far more 
tedious to build with than having the non-browse mode local to the 
drawing region group as I'd originally hoped for.  Better than having to 
completely emulate all pointer tool behaviors from scratch in script 
using the browse tool, but still more than I'd wish on a newcomer.


Given the difficulty of attempting to mix tool modes with this property 
in LC, in practice this property is seldom used.


The confusion you reported is something I see almost weekly in the 
forums with this very unusual property.


I'd suggested replacing that in the Project Browser to govern lockLoc 
instead, which is not only far more frequently used but also a much more 
common and anticipatable use of a lock icon.


--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/27/2017 01:36 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:


I have used cantSelect before to stop selection of a background image that has 
lots of objects on top. It means you can drag select them and won’t 
accidentally click-drag and move your background. It’s better than lockLocation 
because of drag-select.


Thanks. That makes sense. Kind of like having editable and non-editable 
layers.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/27/2017 01:42 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote:
I use this feature extensively in an app where there is card that has 
objects that users can select to change properties (line width, color, 
font, etc) and at the top of the window is a toolbar with font menu, 
etc. I don't want the user to be able to select the toolbar controls and 
accidentally delete them or alter them, so I use the cantSelect property 
on those.


So you put the user in development mode? Sounds dangerous.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

In development it can be handy if you have an object that shouldn't move or 
change, but you want to drag a selection around surrounding objects to 
select them.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On August 27, 2017 3:31:22 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
 wrote:



On 08/27/2017 01:10 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:


CantSelect is false by default, and since it isn't in the project
browser, new users are unlikely to know about it. They're also unlikely
to dig into the Plugins menu to show the app browser, so mistakes would
probably be rare.


I don't think I've ever used the cantSelect property, and I've been
having a hard time trying to come up with a use case for it. Can you
clue me in as to a situation where this might be useful?

--
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

  
  

 I think that may be better.
  

  
Since JavaScript doesn't preserve pre-sort order, I think additional 
comparisons are needed to maintain the alpha sort.
  

  
While we can use a trailing "\b" to match word ending (makes exact word be 
prioritized), using something like a quote character may be "easier" (replace " 
with \b in the regex) to allow exact match searches.
  

  
  

  
Thanks,
  
Brian
  
  
>   
> On Aug 27, 2017 at 3:42 PM,   (mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   >  On 28 Aug 2017, at 4:08 am, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:  >   
> >>  I've been working on the dictionary and would like to improve it even 
> more.  >   >  Your name will be praised. :) Brian’s name is praised already! 
> He’s certainly pitching in! As far as the dictionary goes perhaps the search 
> term needs to prioritise if found anywhere in the name of an entry? Cheers 
> Monte ___ use-livecode mailing 
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>
>   
  
  
 
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 28 Aug 2017, at 4:08 am, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I've been working on the dictionary and would like to improve it even more.
> 
> Your name will be praised. :)

Brian’s name is praised already! He’s certainly pitching in!

As far as the dictionary goes perhaps the search term needs to prioritise if 
found anywhere in the name of an entry?

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Marty Knapp via use-livecode]

I use this feature extensively in an app where there is card that has 
objects that users can select to change properties (line width, color, 
font, etc) and at the top of the window is a toolbar with font menu, 
etc. I don't want the user to be able to select the toolbar controls and 
accidentally delete them or alter them, so I use the cantSelect property 
on those.


Marty K

On 08/27/2017 01:10 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

CantSelect is false by default, and since it isn't in the project 
browser, new users are unlikely to know about it. They're also 
unlikely to dig into the Plugins menu to show the app browser, so 
mistakes would probably be rare.


I don't think I've ever used the cantSelect property, and I've been 
having a hard time trying to come up with a use case for it. Can you 
clue me in as to a situation where this might be useful? 



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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 28 Aug 2017, at 6:29 am, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> CantSelect is false by default, and since it isn't in the project browser, 
>> new users are unlikely to know about it. They're also unlikely to dig into 
>> the Plugins menu to show the app browser, so mistakes would probably be rare.
> 
> I don't think I've ever used the cantSelect property, and I've been having a 
> hard time trying to come up with a use case for it. Can you clue me in as to 
> a situation where this might be useful?


I have used cantSelect before to stop selection of a background image that has 
lots of objects on top. It means you can drag select them and won’t 
accidentally click-drag and move your background. It’s better than lockLocation 
because of drag-select.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 28 Aug 2017, at 4:09 am, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>CantSelect disallows selection by the edit tool, mostly used in 
>development, but doesn't change the message path.
> 
> Hmm.. doesn't this comprise a Noobie Gotcha?
> 
> cantSelect is not exposed in the PI for any object.
> 
> if it was, then toggling this in the ABrowser would trigger the checkbox on 
> and off and you would get it'
> 
> "Oh selectable it toggling the cantSelect" property.

If you had an inspector open on the selected control and toggled cantSelect and 
boom it disappeared because the selected object wasn’t selected would you 
report that as a bug? That’s why it’s not on the inspector. Mind you it might 
be feasible to switch the inspector to locked on object mode at that point...
> 
> I don't think that prop is exposed at all in the new Project Browser and

Actually it is but the toolTip is wrong! I’m about to submit a patch for that.
> 
> "worse" the PB allowed me to double click on the list and it *did* select the 
> object that had "cantSelect" = "true"
> 
> @monte perhaps this is the crux of the crash: PB  allows selection of an 
> object with cantSelect set to true?

Hmm… it does appear it does allow it… perhaps the select command works 
regardless of cantSelect? It does not appear to crash for me though.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/27/2017 01:10 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

CantSelect is false by default, and since it isn't in the project 
browser, new users are unlikely to know about it. They're also unlikely 
to dig into the Plugins menu to show the app browser, so mistakes would 
probably be rare.


I don't think I've ever used the cantSelect property, and I've been 
having a hard time trying to come up with a use case for it. Can you 
clue me in as to a situation where this might be useful?


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 8/27/17 1:09 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

JQ wrote

 CantSelect disallows selection by the edit tool, mostly used in
 development, but doesn't change the message path.

Hmm.. doesn't this comprise a Noobie Gotcha?

cantSelect is not exposed in the PI for any object.


CantSelect is false by default, and since it isn't in the project 
browser, new users are unlikely to know about it. They're also unlikely 
to dig into the Plugins menu to show the app browser, so mistakes would 
probably be rare.


But yes, it could be an issue if they did find it.


"worse" the PB allowed me to double click on the list and it *did* select the object that had 
"cantSelect" = "true"

@monte perhaps this is the crux of the crash: PB  allows selection of an object 
with cantSelect set to true?


If you can reproduce that, it would be worth a bug report. The behavior 
does sound suspicious.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

JQ wrote

CantSelect disallows selection by the edit tool, mostly used in 
development, but doesn't change the message path.

Hmm.. doesn't this comprise a Noobie Gotcha?

cantSelect is not exposed in the PI for any object.

if it was, then toggling this in the ABrowser would trigger the checkbox on and 
off and you would get it'

"Oh selectable it toggling the cantSelect" property.

I don't think that prop is exposed at all in the new Project Browser and

"worse" the PB allowed me to double click on the list and it *did* select the 
object that had "cantSelect" = "true"

@monte perhaps this is the crux of the crash: PB  allows selection of an object 
with cantSelect set to true?

BR





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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 8/27/17 12:48 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:

I've been working on the dictionary and would like to improve it even more.


Your name will be praised. :)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

 
 

 I've been working on the dictionary and would like to improve it even more.
Changes to the selection logic will probably need concurrence from the LC 
folks.Right now the search is performed on the name and the syntax.
Priority is given to terms that match the start of a word.Multiple words 
are currently supported (space delimited, treated as AND).See bug report 
20289 (specifically for "me" being difficult to find).
 

 
Maybe the dictionary should default to a "definition" with some hints on 
searching.
 

 
 

 
TinyDict is much more space efficient and will probably remain so unless the 
built in dictionary is replaced.I do believe that the functionality of the 
built in one can be made pretty close (exception possibly being the search of 
multiple dictionaries at once).It already is more powerful since full RegEx 
is supported in the search field (admittedly limited to advanced users).
 
 Thanks,  
Brian
 

 
>  
> On Aug 27, 2017 at 9:05 AM,   (mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Yes, Tiny Dictionary is brilliant. But does it integrate with the script 
> editor yet? Will new users know they should download a third party solution 
> to get a fully functional dictionary? I can usually find what I need because 
> I know most of the terminology but others won't. . -- Jacqueline Landman Gay 
> | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | 
> http://www.hyperactivesw.com 
>
>  
 
 
 
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

Ah - thanks

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 27, 2017, at 11:39 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> CantSelect disallows selection by the edit tool, mostly used in development, 
> but doesn't change the message path.
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On August 27, 2017 9:25:28 AM Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> If you click a button with cantselect set to true, what object receives the 
>> click?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 27, 2017, at 6:20 AM, hh via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
 JLG wrote:
 ... But it should be easier.
>>> 
>>> You could use tinyDictionary.
>>> 
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

CantSelect disallows selection by the edit tool, mostly used in 
development, but doesn't change the message path.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On August 27, 2017 9:25:28 AM Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
 wrote:


If you click a button with cantselect set to true, what object receives the 
click?


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 27, 2017, at 6:20 AM, hh via use-livecode 
 wrote:



JLG wrote:
... But it should be easier.


You could use tinyDictionary.

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

If you click a button with cantselect set to true, what object receives the 
click?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 27, 2017, at 6:20 AM, hh via use-livecode 
 wrote:

>> JLG wrote:
>> ... But it should be easier.
> 
> You could use tinyDictionary.
> 
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Yes, Tiny Dictionary is brilliant. But does it integrate with the script 
editor yet? Will new users know they should download a third party solution 
to get a fully functional dictionary?


I can usually find what I need because I know most of the terminology but 
others won't.

.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On August 27, 2017 5:22:43 AM hh via use-livecode 
 wrote:



JLG wrote:
... But it should be easier.


You could use tinyDictionary.

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[hh via use-livecode]

> JLG wrote:
> ... But it should be easier.

You could use tinyDictionary.

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Thanks. But it should be easier.


On 8/26/17 11:53 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
  
  


  "select\b" will make finding it a little easier.
 
  
On Aug 26, 2017 at 11:49 PM,  mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com)>  wrote:
  
  
  
  On 8/26/17 10:41 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:  >  So, what is this "selectable" property? It's the cantSelect property, which doesn't show up in any search I did in the dictionary. But if you search for "select" and scroll forever, it's in the list. It's also the first hit if you search for "cant". CantSelect, if true, prevents the object from being selected with the pointer tool. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 


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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

 
 

 "select\b" will make finding it a little easier.
 

 
 

 
 
>  
> On Aug 26, 2017 at 11:49 PM,   (mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  On 8/26/17 10:41 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:  >  
> So, what is this "selectable" property? It's the cantSelect property, which 
> doesn't show up in any search I did in the dictionary. But if you search for 
> "select" and scroll forever, it's in the list. It's also the first hit if you 
> search for "cant". CantSelect, if true, prevents the object from being 
> selected with the pointer tool. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
> jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 8/26/17 10:41 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

So, what is this "selectable" property?


It's the cantSelect property, which doesn't show up in any search I did 
in the dictionary. But if you search for "select" and scroll forever, 
it's in the list. It's also the first hit if you search for "cant".


CantSelect, if true, prevents the object from being selected with the 
pointer tool.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

OK so editing groups was crashing LC on my Mac again today.

I had pasted a grc into a group, could not select it, then closed the stack and 
LC crashed (reported here bug 20299)

But when I reopened the stack the grc was there on the top layer of the group 
that I had edited before crashing. so hmm that paste did work.

OK so I begin to suspect the IDE's scripts that are trying to track changes and 
update the Project Browser (wild guess) and I switch over to the 
revApplicationOverivew

Ahha! look the graphic has no check mark under the "selectable" column.

Hmm I could not recall a prop called "selectable"   

So go to the dictionary. enter "selectable"  oops… no such property, so what is 
this column in the revApplicationOverview tracking.. gotta get work done here… 
turn vis of all objects on, check "selectable" whatever that is.. and now, yes! 
I can edit the group, select the grc on top layer, send to to back, refresh 
overview.. yep it's not the bottom object of the group. Save  and no crashes.

in the AP I can toggle the vis and it toggles in the PI for the object, but if 
I go object type and toggle "selectable" I don't see any change in any prop in 
the PI… So, what is this "selectable" property?   

 

On 8/22/17, 8:26 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Monte Goulding via 
use-livecode"  wrote:

>On 23 Aug 2017, at 1:47 pm, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode 
 wrote:
>Before I report… anyone seeing this or know this has been addressed in 
more recent versions.

A crash log should help us find this relatively quickly if you can’t come 
up with a good recipe.

Cheers

Monte

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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 23 Aug 2017, at 1:47 pm, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Before I report… anyone seeing this or know this has been addressed in more 
> recent versions.

A crash log should help us find this relatively quickly if you can’t come up 
with a good recipe.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Bad Crash on Attempt to Group Radio Buttons

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

All crashes are bugs and need reporting. It sounds like in this case you 
had individual objects selected and tried to edit those as you would a 
group. The engine couldn't handle it. I've not had a crash if a group 
itself is selected when I choose "edit group".


To create a group inside another one, edit the "outside" group and then 
create the inner group.


On 8/22/17 10:47 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

I had just now a really bad crash in 8.1.6

created custom control/group

then I needed to create two groups of five @ radio buttons in that group.

I layed out the radio buttons and then with selectedGroupedControls selected, I tried to 
group one set of radio buttons by selecting them and click "Group" but the IDE 
beeped at me.

So that thought, well maybe I have to added the group before I can group any 
child controls

So I went to the edit group in the menu bar, with those five controls still selected and 
LC crashed, "winked out"

This is not the first time I've experience issues with sub groups of a parent 
group, but rarely has it completely bombed like this.

fortunately no corrupt stack…

Before I report… anyone seeing this or know this has been addressed in more 
recent versions.

BR

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--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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