Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Wed May 02 2018 16:04:41 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington  wrote:
> I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents 
> in whatever file format I use.

For PF forms, it is one (or two?) checkboxes when exporting the document.

> I didn't find his pronouncements to be loud or arrogant, but rather
> to contain useful information that has led me to other useful
> information, just as I found the same with your original suggestion.

Well, I disagree.

Useful information? Personally, I don't find MIS-information all that
useful.

He absolutely slammed the door on PDF forms based on false and/or
mis-leading information. By loud/arrogant I mean he didn't even allow
for the possibility he may be wrong, and obviously didn't bother
checking his (false) claims before pronouncing them to the world,
thereby possibly precluding people (like yourself) from utilizing a
fabulous tool.

I suspect he may be one of the FSF nuts who reject PDF because it isn't
a 'free' file format - but I could be wrong (in which case I apologize).

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 05/02/2018 10:58 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
>  wrote:
>> On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>>> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
>>> possibility of doing it directly within LO.
>> Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do
>> something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?
> Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
> create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.
>
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms
>
>> I am not a lawyer.
>> This is not legal advice.
> So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
> especially without having all of the facts.
>

I found your suggestion to use fillable PDF forms intriguing and 
certainly something I will consider in future, more appropriate, 
situations. I also found Jonathon's legal concerns to be very helpful. I 
want to make sure that the resources I create are fully accessible, and 
I will have to weigh the effort it takes to create accessible documents 
in whatever file format I use. I didn't find his pronouncements to be 
loud or arrogant, but rather to contain useful information that has led 
me to other useful information, just as I found the same with your 
original suggestion.

Virgil

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Deleting columns in empty spreadsheet

[Krunose]

On 02.05.2018 19:38, Luuk wrote:

On 2-5-2018 19:35, Krunose wrote:

On 02.05.2018 18:56, Luuk wrote:

On 2-5-2018 16:51, Krunose wrote:

Hi,

I just tried to delete all columns but first two in empty spreadsheet
and seams that Delete columns option after selecting empty columns and
right clicking is doing nothing.

Is it possible to have only two columns in Calc and handful of rows
the same way it's possible in Google Sheets?

I'm using LO 5.4.6 on GNU/Linux Debian Stretch.

Kruno



Deleting is not possible,
But hiding is!

There should be no (functional) difference in hiding, or deleting, those
columns


Well, then Delete columns is misleading and should be grayed out in
such specific situations...

Thanks on the answer,
Kruno



No, it should not be greyed out, because checking if there IS content in
one of those columns takes time...





No, not really. Now row gets deleted no matter if it's empty or not. No 
warnings or anything. Selecting and deleting hundred rows doesn't matter 
as everything stays the same and user can't really see the difference.


But selecting all available rows and columns when user expect something 
like Google Sheets is doing, then Delete rows should be grayed out.


No checking is needed, but one: check if selected from current 
row/column to the end. If is, gray out Delete rows/columns option.


But I get it - it's not possible to delete rows and columns like that :)

Thanks,
Kruno

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Deleting columns in empty spreadsheet

[Luuk]

On 2-5-2018 19:35, Krunose wrote:
> On 02.05.2018 18:56, Luuk wrote:
>> On 2-5-2018 16:51, Krunose wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just tried to delete all columns but first two in empty spreadsheet
>>> and seams that Delete columns option after selecting empty columns and
>>> right clicking is doing nothing.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to have only two columns in Calc and handful of rows
>>> the same way it's possible in Google Sheets?
>>>
>>> I'm using LO 5.4.6 on GNU/Linux Debian Stretch.
>>>
>>> Kruno
>>>
>>>
>> Deleting is not possible,
>> But hiding is!
>>
>> There should be no (functional) difference in hiding, or deleting, those
>> columns
>>
>
> Well, then Delete columns is misleading and should be grayed out in
> such specific situations...
>
> Thanks on the answer,
> Kruno
>
>
No, it should not be greyed out, because checking if there IS content in
one of those columns takes time...



-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Deleting columns in empty spreadsheet

[Krunose]

On 02.05.2018 18:56, Luuk wrote:

On 2-5-2018 16:51, Krunose wrote:

Hi,

I just tried to delete all columns but first two in empty spreadsheet
and seams that Delete columns option after selecting empty columns and
right clicking is doing nothing.

Is it possible to have only two columns in Calc and handful of rows
the same way it's possible in Google Sheets?

I'm using LO 5.4.6 on GNU/Linux Debian Stretch.

Kruno



Deleting is not possible,
But hiding is!

There should be no (functional) difference in hiding, or deleting, those
columns



Well, then Delete columns is misleading and should be grayed out in such 
specific situations...


Thanks on the answer,
Kruno


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Deleting columns in empty spreadsheet

[Luuk]

On 2-5-2018 16:51, Krunose wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just tried to delete all columns but first two in empty spreadsheet
> and seams that Delete columns option after selecting empty columns and
> right clicking is doing nothing.
>
> Is it possible to have only two columns in Calc and handful of rows
> the same way it's possible in Google Sheets?
>
> I'm using LO 5.4.6 on GNU/Linux Debian Stretch.
>
> Kruno
>
>

Deleting is not possible,
But hiding is!

There should be no (functional) difference in hiding, or deleting, those
columns

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tim-L]

On 04/30/2018 05:22 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

On 04/30/2018 11:11 AM, James Knott wrote:

Recent versions of MS Office are supposed to be able to work with Open
Document files.  Have you tried to see what happens when you use it with
ODF files?


Thank you for the suggestion. My personal computer is Linux only, but
I'll check it out on the school's computers to see how well MSO reads
and writes to .odt. I don't even know what version of MSO the school uses.

Virgil
The last time I worked for a school, it was before 2005, so there was 
not LibreOffice. I do know many families cannot afford to buy, or rent, 
MSO and all of its upgrades as the school upgrades. I use to live next 
to a family who's adults will not let the students use the only computer 
in the household.  Now it seems that every writing assignments taken 
home required to be "typed" and no longer hand written. So from the 
start, we no longer have the students get use to hand written work, so 
their written documents are readable.  The built in spell checker makes 
the need to learn how to spell words anymore.





--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

HTML should good for screen readers.

See: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA for 
how to use it.


Although Writer have abilities...



  Support assistive technology tools (program restart required)

Allows you to use assistive tools, such as external screen readers, 
Braille devices or speech recognition input devices. The Java Runtime 
Environment must be installed on your computer before you can enable 
assistive support.



https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Accessibility

It is not clear to me how well HTML export works

See: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA for 
how to use it.


Sorry if I've duplicated, but this is long list of e-mails.



On 5/2/2018 9:08 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

On 05/02/2018 08:07 AM, toki wrote:

In order of accessibility:
* Plain text;
* MS Doc;
* MS Docx;
* RTF;
* ODT;


jonathon


Interesting list. I've always liked working with plain text files.

Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown
files (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).

This semester, I played with making slide presentations using AsciiDoc
and its "slidy" backend.

The source file might look something like:

===
Title
===

Slide Title
--

* A Bulleted item

** A nested bulleted item with *boldface* type.
** Another nested bulleted item with _italicized_ text.

Another Slide Title
--


After creating the document, I run it through AsciiDoc's converter and
it creates a very simple slide presentation in HTML format. However, the
source file remains plain text. Would a screen reader get tripped up by
the various formatting tags (* A Bulleted item; _italics_, *boldface*)?

Virgil




--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Krunose]

On 02.05.2018 16:58, Tanstaafl wrote:

On Mon Apr 30 2018 16:21:51 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tom Davies
 wrote:

Hi :)
Pdf is not meant to be editable.  It's purpose was to look the same
everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
small, easily installed program.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with PDF forms, which have fields built
into them that can easily be filled out by most any PDF reader, but the
form itself cannot be edited.

I've been using them since forever.



I had hard time filling some of them out (created in LO) as fonts get 
squashed to a thin line and I was not been able to read anything.


Testing mainly done in Ocular. Maybe due to some "non-standard" 
characters like š, č, ć, ž, đ... Could not figure out is it PDF reader 
or LO when creating PDF.


Kruno

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Mon Apr 30 2018 16:21:51 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Tom Davies
 wrote:
> Hi :) 
> Pdf is not meant to be editable.  It's purpose was to look the same
> everywhere on any machine and be easy to open on anything with a free,
> small, easily installed program. 

Apparently you are unfamiliar with PDF forms, which have fields built
into them that can easily be filled out by most any PDF reader, but the
form itself cannot be edited.

I've been using them since forever.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Mon Apr 30 2018 17:49:32 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Ben Oliver
 wrote:
> On 18-04-30 21:43:00, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in
>> saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a
>> "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?
>>
>> Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format,
>> although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known
>> how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

> My understanding is that it's a feature pretty much only covered by 
> Adobe software. That includes filling out a form.

Nope. I've created numerous PDF fillable forms, first in OpenOffice,
then in Libreoffice, and have used different PDF viewers to fill them
out (Adobe Reader, PDF XChange Viewer, Sumatra PDF, etc)...

> Things may have changed since I last checked.

Some time ago, in fact...

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Tue May 01 2018 14:06:17 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), toki
 wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 09:53 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> That was my thinking as well, which is why I'm intrigued by the
>> possibility of doing it directly within LO.

> Is it worth US$5,000 plus court costs plus attorney fees, to do 
> something that is a known Section 508/ADA violation?

Probably not, but this is irrelevant, since it is entirely possible to
create a PDF Fillable Form that isn't in violation of anything.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=screen+reader+friendly+fillable+PDF+forms

> I am not a lawyer.
> This is not legal advice.

So, maybe you shouldn't make such loud, arrogant pronouncements,
especially without having all of the facts.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Deleting columns in empty spreadsheet

[Krunose]

Hi,

I just tried to delete all columns but first two in empty spreadsheet 
and seams that Delete columns option after selecting empty columns and 
right clicking is doing nothing.


Is it possible to have only two columns in Calc and handful of rows the 
same way it's possible in Google Sheets?


I'm using LO 5.4.6 on GNU/Linux Debian Stretch.

Kruno


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Tanstaafl]

On Mon Apr 30 2018 17:43:00 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time), Virgil
Arrington  wrote:
> This is intriguing. I just looked over my options with LO 6.0.3 in 
> saving as a PDF and I don't easily see any method of saving as a 
> "fillable PDF form." Can you give a quick explanation of how to do that?
> 
> Like Tom, I've always thought of PDF as a generally non-editable format, 
> although I have used fillable PDF forms before. I've just never known 
> how to create a fillable PDF. Can it be done from within LO?

You create the form in Libreoffice using form fields, then when you want
to save it as a fillable PDF, choose 'Export', then select PDF as the
type, then after you click OK, you have additional options, one of which
is 'Create PDF form'...

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 05/02/2018 08:07 AM, toki wrote:
> In order of accessibility:
> * Plain text;
> * MS Doc;
> * MS Docx;
> * RTF;
> * ODT;
>
>
> jonathon
>

Interesting list. I've always liked working with plain text files.

Do you have any information/opinion about various forms of markdown 
files (i.e. Markdown, RestructureText, AsciiDoc).

This semester, I played with making slide presentations using AsciiDoc 
and its "slidy" backend.

The source file might look something like:

===
Title
===

Slide Title
--

* A Bulleted item

** A nested bulleted item with *boldface* type.
** Another nested bulleted item with _italicized_ text.

Another Slide Title
--


After creating the document, I run it through AsciiDoc's converter and 
it creates a very simple slide presentation in HTML format. However, the 
source file remains plain text. Would a screen reader get tripped up by 
the various formatting tags (* A Bulleted item; _italics_, *boldface*)?

Virgil

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[Virgil Arrington]

On 05/01/2018 08:31 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> Sounds like using .doc is the best answer after all.  The Pdf route is
> intriguing.  I think Virgil probably knows whether any of his students have
> relevant accessibility issues.
>

Yes, none of my students are visually impaired and none need a screen 
reader, so I'm not concerned about lawsuits. However, I also teach 
several on-line courses, and this discussion has caused me to rethink 
some of my practices. After some very preliminary searching, it appears 
that the problem is not limited to PDF files.

Apparently, at least one of the problems is with graphics. As I 
understand it (and I admit I understand very little of it), screen 
readers turn text into speech and read the document to the user whose 
vision prevents him/her from reading it visually. I guess screen readers 
stumble on pictures. One problem with PDF is that, depending on how its 
created, the entire file can be a graphic instead of text. For example, 
if I scan a text document and save it as a PDF, what I have is not a 
text file, but a picture of a text file. Jonathan suggested that the 
fillable box in a PDF file is a graphic that screen readers don't 
comprehend. I'll defer to his greater knowledge of the subject.

Since graphics aren't limited to PDF files, neither is the potential for 
ADA violations. In my cursory search, I found articles explaining how to 
make DOC files and HTML files more accessible as well as PDF files. 
(See, e.g., 
https://www.section508.gov/content/build/create-accessible-documents). I 
found an interesting article from 2011 dealing with making 
OpenOffice.org files more accessible. 
(https://webaim.org/techniques/ooo/) One recommendation was to use 
paragraph styles for headings as they not only make the headings look 
nice, but also provide logical organization of the document, so here's 
yet another benefit of using styles!

Having said all this, I also had the opportunity to experiment with LO's 
creation of fillable PDF forms. I like the way it works, but from what I 
have found, it would seem to work best if the fillable text is only one 
line -- a short box here or there. My test is an essay test with answers 
that will be several paragraphs long. At least with the PDF I created, 
all of the fillable text was input on one line that didn't initially 
wrap. Only after I typed the entire fill-in text and hit  did the 
text wrap and become formatted to the text box that I had created. 
Assuming this is the way it always works, I don't think this would be 
very convenient for students trying to write a three paragraph essay. I 
think it it would be better for students to simply type their answers 
into the word processing file rather than a PDF. But, it's nice to know 
that LO has this capability. I'm sure I'll use it in other situations.

I also checked one of my school's computers and it appears that it has 
MSO 2006 on it -- at least that's what the Program Files menu says. It 
has been several years since I have used any version of MSO, so I'm not 
up to speed on the different versions of it over the years, and I found 
no way to open an "about MS Word" dialog to see what version it actually 
was. I say this to confirm that I have no confidence that my students' 
unique version of Word (whatever it might be) would be able to 
adequately read an ODT file created by my LO 6.0.3. However, to date, 
I've never had a problem with an LO generated DOC file being read by my 
students' computers.

So, as Tom suggests, I've come full circle. When I create an essay exam, 
I always save it in ODT format until I'm ready to share with my 
students. Then, I save a copy of the final draft to DOC and send it to 
my students. LO's conversion has really grown over the years, and I very 
impressed with the results. My students then type their answers onto the 
DOC file and send it back to me. It's a very easy solution to create 
and, thus far, has worked very well.

Virgil

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] How many of you deal with the Linux Users Group [Facebook]?

[toki]

On 05/01/2018 07:19 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
>> IOW, fill-able PDF is an extremely bad idea.

> What's the 'approved' solution?

In order of accessibility:

* Plain text;
* MS Doc;
* MS Docx;
* RTF;
* ODT;

The issue with RTF is that screen readers trip up on some of the markup
syntax.

The issue with both MS DocX and ODT is that the software doesn't play
nicely with screen readers. ODT has a further issue with software not
playing nicely with speech input systems.

jonathon

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted