Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
On 05/05/2013 at 15:22, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: But the company's goals should be to meet the user's goals first. If you don't meet your users goals, your level of success will never reach the top. Precisely: company's product should meet company's target users goals. I am sure that I am NOT target of neither RedHat not Novell. Probably you (and many other readers of this mailing list) are neither. Also: as far as RedHat and Novell are concerned, LibreOffice is not their core product. They are main contributors to LO, but LO is not their main point of interest. If LO or any product, open source, commercial, bucket making, is to increase the number of users, you've got to pay attention to the users that can not make the changes on their own. In open source world, you are supposed to scratch your own itch (that is: send patches or hire someone to do it for you). If you can't or are unable to, then you might be better off somewhere else. This is one of reasons why Linux and other open source apps never really get substantial share of desktop market. Most desktop users can't scratch their own itch, so they leave. Of course there are some exceptions, most notably Mozilla Firefox. But this is it: exceptions. And I'm one of those users that possesses neither the time, money, nor interest in creating a change. A change that may not be compatible with any other LO produced file. If you have no resources to offer, then I am afraid that you must just wait and pray someone will pick idea up. This is bitter and unfair, but it's the way world is. The main difference between open source and closed source software is when main force behind software is not interested in satisfying your request. In closed source world, that's it. Dead end. In open source world, you still has some margin of opportunity to see change made. But this is possibility, not necessity. It's not like open source software get every feature anyone has ever requested. I think it's important to understand specificity of open source software. It is definitely not for everyone. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
From: Miroslaw Zalewski [mini...@poczta.onet.pl] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 8:25 AM In open source world, you are supposed to scratch your own itch (that is: send patches or hire someone to do it for you). If you can't or are unable to, then you might be better off somewhere else. This is one of reasons why Linux and other open source apps never really get substantial share of desktop market. Most desktop users can't scratch their own itch, so they leave. +1 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Le 05/05/2013 02:10, Ken Springer a écrit : One of my other personal gripes about today's computer users and some employers. IMO, this is a long time marketting motto which I try to fight: IT is *not* easy and IT is *not* intuitive. Unfortunately, for more than 30 years, the powers-that-be believe marketters. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Dear Ken, could you please post numbers of these bugs here? The topic sounds to be interesting Thanks Milos Dňa 05.05.2013 00:32, Ken Springer wrote / napísal(a): As I noted in private email, LO still has not assigned two bugs I filed to anyone yet. They are classified a low priority. As I mentioned, the issues are *not* low priority to me, so if they don't want to fix them, I'll pay for a program where the developers do care to fix the low priority issues. -- email jabber: sramek.mi...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
On 05/05/2013 at 00:32, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: As I noted in private email, LO still has not assigned two bugs I filed to anyone yet. They are classified a low priority. As I mentioned, the issues are not low priority to me, so if they don't want to fix them, I'll pay for a program where the developers do care to fix the low priority issues. This is how open source works. There are some companies (in LO: mainly RedHat and Novell) that hire full-time developers. They work on anything that helps reaching companies goals. Also, there is bunch of guys who just hack in their spare time. They work on anything they find interesting or solve their own problems. If your issues does not fall to interest of any of above groups, there is still chance to get it solved: hire a freelance developer who will get thing done. Because LO is open source, you are not on the mercy of some company. You can take matters into your own hands and do something. Or you can buy some other software. You don't have to use LibreOffice. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Last night I replied to a posting from Andrew K., and I thought I sent it to the list, but apparently9 I didn't. So here it is: On 05/04/2013 11:14 PM, Andrew K wrote: Hi, I use styles as much as I can, just to achieve consistent formatting, to say nothing of time saving. I find that most people I know who use word processors as a (barely glorified) typewriter are those who are most resistant to using styles. Andrew O I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing. That's fine, altho there are probably better programs to do that, even available to Linux users. I'm not ashamed to say that I use word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very happy to have this glorified typewriter--one which can import whole paragraphs, move them, or existing ones around, correct spelling errors without retyping, so some editing--all the things I might have done on my typewriter, except now so much faster and easier. Let the publisher of my document format it with his desktop publishing app. He doesn't need a word processor, he needs its big brother--but I don't! --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Doug, Le 05/05/2013 17:29, Doug a écrit : I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing. Styles are, obviously, a step towards DTP but, as you emphasize, a word processor is no DTP (as much as a word processor is no typewriter). Styles are a very powerful tool that makes ordinary users -- who do not intend to publish, just have correctly crafted documents -- gain time and energy. And, in the business, time is money. But I can see what you're hinting: for those users who want to actually publish, such a tool like Scribus is the way to go. I share this thought, but DTP is a whole other beast that requires training on its own. I'm not ashamed to say that I use word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very happy to have this glorified typewriter There's a very wide gap between a typewriter -- as glorified as it could be -- and a word processor. I'm always insisting to users forget the typewriter (even if they never really use any, or even touched any) and acquire the concepts of word processors. BTW, do you know the hardware piece where the evil comes from? The keyboard. A typewriter kb and a computer one are not the same although they look alike. They just look too much alike and the trainer has to show they are different. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
From: Ken Springer [snowsh...@q.com] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 7:49 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44871 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46986 Will wonders never cease... The first one has been assigned to someone. Actually, FDO bug 44871 has been assigned since the date it was submitted during QA bug triage. But that means exactly squat since Cedric did not assign himself (indicating he accepted and was working on it). Assignment is just not a tool that has a lot of meaning in the LibreOffice project (and most other FOSS) because, as has been mentioned, development and quashing of bugs is driven by the interests of the respective developers. Some developers will assign to themselves, some will not--personal choice. Maybe there's hope after all, as I've got a list from long ago that I never bothered to file as these were never addressed and assigned, so I never bothered. Can't help but notice that in the ensuing time you have moved from OSX 10.6.8 to your current 10.8.3 build, yet YOU have not filed additional updates or status regards either issue. Truth is issues with OSX builds require a lot of care and feeding given the rapid changes to Apples APIs. If you want things fixed you have to be engaged and nurture the issues you raise. Please take the time to research the FDO Bugzilla ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/query.cgi?format=advancedproduct=LibreOffice ) and if not already identified, submit as new issues items from your list. You should have a look at the OSX issues meta bug https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42082 and you'll get some idea. Regarding fdo#44871, the labeling as Distribute Rows Equally is clearly wrong. Its function is documented as Space Rows Equally -- Adjusts the height of the selected rows to match the height of the tallest row in the selection, which it does. So what you were really asking for is an enhancement. Which as was pointed out in comments to 44871 would receive the best review on the UX-Advise list. Did you follow up there? Just looked and saw no record. So, I've opened a new enhancement request in fdo#64242 and asked the UX-Advise list for discussion--essentially for handling Table columns and rows the UX is a bit muddled between Distribute and Equal Spacing actions. Stuart -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
On 05/05/2013 01:19 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: Doug wrote, I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing. That's fine, altho there are probably better programs to do that, even available to Linux users. I'm not ashamed to say that I use word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very happy to have this glorified typewriter--one which can import whole paragraphs, move them, or existing ones around, correct spelling errors without retyping, so some editing--all the things I might have done on my typewriter, except now so much faster and easier. Let the publisher of my document format it with his desktop publishing app. He doesn't need a word processor, he needs its big brother--but I don't! Actually, Doug, it sounds like you're using word processors as text editors, simple programs that allow you to enter and edit text without worrying about final output. Most people using word processors are preparing documents to be printed, and if you're going to print a text file, you're going to have to format it. Styles provide a very effective way to quickly and consistently format a document. I agree, if you don't care about formatting, don't worry about styles. But, if you do care about formatting, and you want to do it efficiently, consistently, and quickly, then styles let you do that. Let's say you want to build a house. You can do it with a hand saw and a hammer if you want, but my guess is that a professional builder would want to take advantage of the most advanced power tools available even if s/he might need to invest some time to learn how to use them. Virgil I write letters--where I have a heading saved as a file that I can import--and I write occasionally for publication, in which case I write double-spaced, extra space for paragraph, and no indent. I don't need any kind of style to do that--I can set the double space once per article--that is no more trouble than finding and turning on a preset style, which I could only do if I knew how to create it in the first place. And I edit material sent for a newsletter of some 1000 circulation, for which the publisher uses Pagemaker on a Mac to format it. I don't know, but I think any kind of style setting would go bonkers seeing the formats that come in and trying to mold them into something consistent. I mold them fairly easily in a word processor, by hand. And I save in MS .doc 1997~2003 format, because everybody in the world can read that. And I write emails, and all I need to do is fix typos, which styles can't do! I rest my case. --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) I am not sure if people are aware but under Sun a lot of bugs just got ignored or left to rot because the aim at that time was stability. If a bug is known about and still exists in a new version then that qualifies as being stable. Unstable is where you can't rely on long running bugs still being around. If you are not sure whether something has been fixed or not then it really means the thing is unstable. Companies using the program may have written work-around or patches that they applied each time to each new release but if a particular problem had been sorted out in a newer version then should such a company apply their patch or not! So, Sun wanted stability so that companies could rely on all the problems being well known. Hmm, does that sound a tad bitter? I wasn't even around for that. I used Go-oo without even knowing that it wasn't pure OOo for the last couple of years that OOo was under Sun. Before that i was an MS fanboy. Under TDF the main aim has been to declutter all the code, streamline it, remove old outdate comments and translate the remaining ones into English. Also re-writting chunks done in weird languages, such as Java, in order to consolidate it into just 1 language throughout and generally de-spaghettfy it. At the same time they have also managed to add in 'new' functionality to help bring the program out of the late 90's and well into this century. They've also fixed quite a lot of bugs although mostly that has been to try to make it compatible with the latest changes in the MS formats. I think they have done a remarkable job. Now it should be easier to address individuals bugs. Many of which have probably just dropped out due to the de-spaghettifying. You could help by test-driving the latest beta-release each time and adding a comment to your bug-report to let people know that it still exists. if you leave bug-reports until after release then less people will be looking into it. Pre-release catches the attention of the most devs. I don't think it's fair to blame TDF for the failures of Oracle or Sun and it's not fair to assume that just because your pet peeves haven't been sorted by Sun that they are not going to be sorted under TDF. Regards from Tom :) From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 13:49 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On 5/5/13 2:35 AM, Milos Sramek wrote: Dear Ken, could you please post numbers of these bugs here? The topic sounds to be interesting Thanks Milos Dňa 05.05.2013 00:32, Ken Springer wrote / napísal(a): As I noted in private email, LO still has not assigned two bugs I filed to anyone yet. They are classified a low priority. As I mentioned, the issues are *not* low priority to me, so if they don't want to fix them, I'll pay for a program where the developers do care to fix the low priority issues. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44871 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46986 Will wonders never cease... The first one has been assigned to someone. grin Maybe there's hope after all, as I've got a list from long ago that I never bothered to file as these were never addressed and assigned, so I never bothered. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.3 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) +1 * Text editor = plain text with no formatting * Word-processors allow you to add little bits of formatting as and when you want. Results look a little different on each different machine but it's easy for people to edit and collaborate. It's more about the process of writing than about the final result * Desktop publishing is all about the final result. Consistent, well laid out. The same on every machine and every printer. LibreOffice seems to straddle both word-processing and, to some extent, desktop publishing. It can be used just as a word-processor, like Word, but then you miss the opportunity of getting faster and better results. The important thing, imo, is that it's your choice. Many of us start using it just as a word-processor and then take advantage of the extra bits once we have worked out the style we want to aim for with the document. Sometimes the document is already finished before we've even thought about layout and it looks fine. You don't need to have any clue about how the final document will look when you start. You can just jump in and figure it out as you go along. LaTex, Inkscape(?), Scribus and others are almost purely about Desktop Publishing. You kinda have to know what you are aiming for before you start. You probably can rough it a bit but it's going to be awkward. Just my thoughts from what people have written in this thread and from my own limited experiences. Regards from Tom :) From: Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com; users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 19:20 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On 05/05/2013 01:19 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: Doug wrote, I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing. That's fine, altho there are probably better programs to do that, even available to Linux users. I'm not ashamed to say that I use word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very happy to have this glorified typewriter--one which can import whole paragraphs, move them, or existing ones around, correct spelling errors without retyping, so some editing--all the things I might have done on my typewriter, except now so much faster and easier. Let the publisher of my document format it with his desktop publishing app. He doesn't need a word processor, he needs its big brother--but I don't! Actually, Doug, it sounds like you're using word processors as text editors, simple programs that allow you to enter and edit text without worrying about final output. Most people using word processors are preparing documents to be printed, and if you're going to print a text file, you're going to have to format it. Styles provide a very effective way to quickly and consistently format a document. I agree, if you don't care about formatting, don't worry about styles. But, if you do care about formatting, and you want to do it efficiently, consistently, and quickly, then styles let you do that. Let's say you want to build a house. You can do it with a hand saw and a hammer if you want, but my guess is that a professional builder would want to take advantage of the most advanced power tools available even if s/he might need to invest some time to learn how to use them. Virgil I write letters--where I have a heading saved as a file that I can import--and I write occasionally for publication, in which case I write double-spaced, extra space for paragraph, and no indent. I don't need any kind of style to do that--I can set the double space once per article--that is no more trouble than finding and turning on a preset style, which I could only do if I knew how to create it in the first place. And I edit material sent for a newsletter of some 1000 circulation, for which the publisher uses Pagemaker on a Mac to format it. I don't know, but I think any kind of style setting would go bonkers seeing the formats that come in and trying to mold them into something consistent. I mold them fairly easily in a word processor, by hand. And I save in MS .doc 1997~2003 format, because everybody in the world can read that. And I write emails, and all I need to do is fix typos, which styles can't do! I rest my case. --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) Yes, i can see your point and agree with it somewhat. However i wanted to point out that without new features LO falls behind the competition and fails to attract new people to join in. With the new features people are attracted to it because it becomes clearer that just about anyone can get involved. Like with the early stages of an app store. You don't have to apply for a job and go through the recruitment process and promise stuff and commit to a contracted number of hours to do as you are told for a time period of a year or something. Like with an app store people can just jump in, do their thing, maybe take on more and walk away when they feel like it or if other commitments take over. Just how easy is it to get the chance to write something that gets released within a year if trying to add functionality to MS Office? So, new features are important for many reasons. Also that a shed load of work has gone into LO that will make it easier to hunt down and fix bugs where previously it would have been a complete nightmare. We can start to expect more bugs to get fixed now. The momentum is changing from cleaning to doing. Regards from Tom :) From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 20:41 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On 5/5/13 12:53 PM, Tom Davies wrote: I don't think it's fair to blame TDF for the failures of Oracle or Sun and it's not fair to assume that just because your pet peeves haven't been sorted by Sun that they are not going to be sorted under TDF. I blame neither Oracle or Sun for anything. I've never even used those versions, I started with some version of NeoOffice, then to LO 3.x, I think. What irks me is there seem to have been time to add features (that may or may not work) yet not do much to address known issues. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.3 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Of course, everybody's work is different. From what you described you could use Notepad and get the job done. However, as an attorney, I write legal briefs. They require a title page with no page numbers, front matter consisting of a table of contents, and a table of authorities with lower case Roman numerals, and then the main body of the brief with Arabic page numbers. I will have headings and subheadings, set in boldface or italics, which I need to keep on the same page as the following paragraphs, normal paragraphs that are double spaced with the first line indented, quoted material that will be single spaced with left and right indented margins, and footnotes. I want to make sure I avoid widows and orphans to keep the brief readable for the judge. When I began doing this with Word for Windows, I formatted all of this manually, and it was a real pain. I found myself applying the same formatting characteristics over and over again on different parts of my document. After spending about a half hour setting up my styles, I can now write and format my documents with great speed and know that my headings will all be the same. Virgil -Original Message- From: Doug Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:20 PM To: Virgil Arrington ; users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On 05/05/2013 01:19 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: Doug wrote, I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing. That's fine, altho there are probably better programs to do that, even available to Linux users. I'm not ashamed to say that I use word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very happy to have this glorified typewriter--one which can import whole paragraphs, move them, or existing ones around, correct spelling errors without retyping, so some editing--all the things I might have done on my typewriter, except now so much faster and easier. Let the publisher of my document format it with his desktop publishing app. He doesn't need a word processor, he needs its big brother--but I don't! Actually, Doug, it sounds like you're using word processors as text editors, simple programs that allow you to enter and edit text without worrying about final output. Most people using word processors are preparing documents to be printed, and if you're going to print a text file, you're going to have to format it. Styles provide a very effective way to quickly and consistently format a document. I agree, if you don't care about formatting, don't worry about styles. But, if you do care about formatting, and you want to do it efficiently, consistently, and quickly, then styles let you do that. Let's say you want to build a house. You can do it with a hand saw and a hammer if you want, but my guess is that a professional builder would want to take advantage of the most advanced power tools available even if s/he might need to invest some time to learn how to use them. Virgil I write letters--where I have a heading saved as a file that I can import--and I write occasionally for publication, in which case I write double-spaced, extra space for paragraph, and no indent. I don't need any kind of style to do that--I can set the double space once per article--that is no more trouble than finding and turning on a preset style, which I could only do if I knew how to create it in the first place. And I edit material sent for a newsletter of some 1000 circulation, for which the publisher uses Pagemaker on a Mac to format it. I don't know, but I think any kind of style setting would go bonkers seeing the formats that come in and trying to mold them into something consistent. I mold them fairly easily in a word processor, by hand. And I save in MS .doc 1997~2003 format, because everybody in the world can read that. And I write emails, and all I need to do is fix typos, which styles can't do! I rest my case. --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) Virgil, is there any chance you you uploading your template or whatever to the Templates site? It sounds like something quite a lot of people could benefit from having. Regards from Tom :) From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com To: Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net; users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 21:21 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Of course, everybody's work is different. From what you described you could use Notepad and get the job done. However, as an attorney, I write legal briefs. They require a title page with no page numbers, front matter consisting of a table of contents, and a table of authorities with lower case Roman numerals, and then the main body of the brief with Arabic page numbers. I will have headings and subheadings, set in boldface or italics, which I need to keep on the same page as the following paragraphs, normal paragraphs that are double spaced with the first line indented, quoted material that will be single spaced with left and right indented margins, and footnotes. I want to make sure I avoid widows and orphans to keep the brief readable for the judge. When I began doing this with Word for Windows, I formatted all of this manually, and it was a real pain. I found myself applying the same formatting characteristics over and over again on different parts of my document. After spending about a half hour setting up my styles, I can now write and format my documents with great speed and know that my headings will all be the same. Virgil -Original Message- From: Doug Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:20 PM To: Virgil Arrington ; users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On 05/05/2013 01:19 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: Doug wrote, I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing. That's fine, altho there are probably better programs to do that, even available to Linux users. I'm not ashamed to say that I use word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very happy to have this glorified typewriter--one which can import whole paragraphs, move them, or existing ones around, correct spelling errors without retyping, so some editing--all the things I might have done on my typewriter, except now so much faster and easier. Let the publisher of my document format it with his desktop publishing app. He doesn't need a word processor, he needs its big brother--but I don't! Actually, Doug, it sounds like you're using word processors as text editors, simple programs that allow you to enter and edit text without worrying about final output. Most people using word processors are preparing documents to be printed, and if you're going to print a text file, you're going to have to format it. Styles provide a very effective way to quickly and consistently format a document. I agree, if you don't care about formatting, don't worry about styles. But, if you do care about formatting, and you want to do it efficiently, consistently, and quickly, then styles let you do that. Let's say you want to build a house. You can do it with a hand saw and a hammer if you want, but my guess is that a professional builder would want to take advantage of the most advanced power tools available even if s/he might need to invest some time to learn how to use them. Virgil I write letters--where I have a heading saved as a file that I can import--and I write occasionally for publication, in which case I write double-spaced, extra space for paragraph, and no indent. I don't need any kind of style to do that--I can set the double space once per article--that is no more trouble than finding and turning on a preset style, which I could only do if I knew how to create it in the first place. And I edit material sent for a newsletter of some 1000 circulation, for which the publisher uses Pagemaker on a Mac to format it. I don't know, but I think any kind of style setting would go bonkers seeing the formats that come in and trying to mold them into something consistent. I mold them fairly easily in a word processor, by hand. And I save in MS .doc 1997~2003 format, because everybody in the world can read that. And I write emails, and all I need to do is fix typos, which styles can't do! I rest my case. --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Sure, I'll give it a try. Virgil -Original Message- From: Tom Davies Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 4:48 PM To: Virgil Arrington ; Doug ; users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Hi :) Virgil, is there any chance you you uploading your template or whatever to the Templates site? It sounds like something quite a lot of people could benefit from having. Regards from Tom :) From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com To: Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net; users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 21:21 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Of course, everybody's work is different. From what you described you could use Notepad and get the job done. However, as an attorney, I write legal briefs. They require a title page with no page numbers, front matter consisting of a table of contents, and a table of authorities with lower case Roman numerals, and then the main body of the brief with Arabic page numbers. I will have headings and subheadings, set in boldface or italics, which I need to keep on the same page as the following paragraphs, normal paragraphs that are double spaced with the first line indented, quoted material that will be single spaced with left and right indented margins, and footnotes. I want to make sure I avoid widows and orphans to keep the brief readable for the judge. When I began doing this with Word for Windows, I formatted all of this manually, and it was a real pain. I found myself applying the same formatting characteristics over and over again on different parts of my document. After spending about a half hour setting up my styles, I can now write and format my documents with great speed and know that my headings will all be the same. Virgil -Original Message- From: Doug Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 2:20 PM To: Virgil Arrington ; users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On 05/05/2013 01:19 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: Doug wrote, I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that all this fuss about styles is made by people who are trying to do desktop publishing. That's fine, altho there are probably better programs to do that, even available to Linux users. I'm not ashamed to say that I use word processors as word processors, not as desktop publishers. I am very happy to have this glorified typewriter--one which can import whole paragraphs, move them, or existing ones around, correct spelling errors without retyping, so some editing--all the things I might have done on my typewriter, except now so much faster and easier. Let the publisher of my document format it with his desktop publishing app. He doesn't need a word processor, he needs its big brother--but I don't! Actually, Doug, it sounds like you're using word processors as text editors, simple programs that allow you to enter and edit text without worrying about final output. Most people using word processors are preparing documents to be printed, and if you're going to print a text file, you're going to have to format it. Styles provide a very effective way to quickly and consistently format a document. I agree, if you don't care about formatting, don't worry about styles. But, if you do care about formatting, and you want to do it efficiently, consistently, and quickly, then styles let you do that. Let's say you want to build a house. You can do it with a hand saw and a hammer if you want, but my guess is that a professional builder would want to take advantage of the most advanced power tools available even if s/he might need to invest some time to learn how to use them. Virgil I write letters--where I have a heading saved as a file that I can import--and I write occasionally for publication, in which case I write double-spaced, extra space for paragraph, and no indent. I don't need any kind of style to do that--I can set the double space once per article--that is no more trouble than finding and turning on a preset style, which I could only do if I knew how to create it in the first place. And I edit material sent for a newsletter of some 1000 circulation, for which the publisher uses Pagemaker on a Mac to format it. I don't know, but I think any kind of style setting would go bonkers seeing the formats that come in and trying to mold them into something consistent. I mold them fairly easily in a word processor, by hand. And I save in MS .doc 1997~2003 format, because everybody in the world can read that. And I write emails, and all I need to do is fix typos, which styles can't do! I rest my case. --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) A couple of months ago someone gave an excellent link to a place where you could 'vote' on what you want some free-lance devs to work on and assign a value of cash you would pay of they fixed it. Typical amounts would be around 1 beer in a pub but some people were putting quite large amounts down. Sometimes a few different people would put small amounts for the same thing so the dev would get several beers or even enough for something useful like rent or a new power-supply, or keyboard or something. Of course some of the devs do get paid anyway because some do work for large organisations and get paid to work on LO as part of that but then it's probably for doing something they are ordered to work on. So, if they got an extra boost from the voting thing then they deserve it too. Can anyone remember the link or know of something similar? Regards from Tom :) From: Milos Sramek sramek.mi...@gmail.com To: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 9:35 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Dear Ken, could you please post numbers of these bugs here? The topic sounds to be interesting Thanks Milos Dňa 05.05.2013 00:32, Ken Springer wrote / napísal(a): As I noted in private email, LO still has not assigned two bugs I filed to anyone yet. They are classified a low priority. As I mentioned, the issues are *not* low priority to me, so if they don't want to fix them, I'll pay for a program where the developers do care to fix the low priority issues. -- email jabber: sramek.mi...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Tom, Were you thinking of this? http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Microfund-your-favourite-Issue-tc4035685.html#none Stuart From: Tom Davies [tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 4:10 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Hi :) A couple of months ago someone gave an excellent link to a place where you could 'vote' on what you want some free-lance devs to work on and assign a value of cash you would pay of they fixed it. Typical amounts would be around 1 beer in a pub but some people were putting quite large amounts down. Sometimes a few different people would put small amounts for the same thing so the dev would get several beers or even enough for something useful like rent or a new power-supply, or keyboard or something. Of course some of the devs do get paid anyway because some do work for large organisations and get paid to work on LO as part of that but then it's probably for doing something they are ordered to work on. So, if they got an extra boost from the voting thing then they deserve it too. Can anyone remember the link or know of something similar? Regards from Tom :) From: Milos Sramek sramek.mi...@gmail.com To: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 9:35 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Dear Ken, could you please post numbers of these bugs here? The topic sounds to be interesting Thanks Milos Dňa 05.05.2013 00:32, Ken Springer wrote / napísal(a): As I noted in private email, LO still has not assigned two bugs I filed to anyone yet. They are classified a low priority. As I mentioned, the issues are *not* low priority to me, so if they don't want to fix them, I'll pay for a program where the developers do care to fix the low priority issues. -- email jabber: sramek.mi...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) Brilliant, yes. http://blog.freedomsponsors.org/about/ Thanks Stuart. Looks like an excellent idea to me. Regards from Tom :) From: V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu To: users@global.libreoffice.org users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 22:45 Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Tom, Were you thinking of this? http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Microfund-your-favourite-Issue-tc4035685.html#none Stuart From: Tom Davies [tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 4:10 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Hi :) A couple of months ago someone gave an excellent link to a place where you could 'vote' on what you want some free-lance devs to work on and assign a value of cash you would pay of they fixed it. Typical amounts would be around 1 beer in a pub but some people were putting quite large amounts down. Sometimes a few different people would put small amounts for the same thing so the dev would get several beers or even enough for something useful like rent or a new power-supply, or keyboard or something. Of course some of the devs do get paid anyway because some do work for large organisations and get paid to work on LO as part of that but then it's probably for doing something they are ordered to work on. So, if they got an extra boost from the voting thing then they deserve it too. Can anyone remember the link or know of something similar? Regards from Tom :) From: Milos Sramek sramek.mi...@gmail.com To: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 9:35 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles Dear Ken, could you please post numbers of these bugs here? The topic sounds to be interesting Thanks Milos Dňa 05.05.2013 00:32, Ken Springer wrote / napísal(a): As I noted in private email, LO still has not assigned two bugs I filed to anyone yet. They are classified a low priority. As I mentioned, the issues are *not* low priority to me, so if they don't want to fix them, I'll pay for a program where the developers do care to fix the low priority issues. -- email jabber: sramek.mi...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) At my work place they have just run a 3 month training course in MS Office 2010. We are 2 months in and people still don't know how to select a printer or turn the machine on or off. The tutor has to do all that. I was also expecting a few to teach me how to place images to get the flexibility that LibreOffice gives me but they don't know how to get an imagine in let alone how to set it up or move it around. One or 2 do have skills and 1 of those has talked about going on the course himself but for the most part people just don't know and have trouble learning. If only the course had been about LibreOffice they would all be so much more skilled and flexible. As it is they are stumped if facing something as different as MSO 2007. Regards from Tom :) From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2013, 0:49 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles I tend to agree with Wolfgang on this one. I think the difference for Felmon is that you are the master of documents. Sounds like its your job to clean up everyone's mess and you seem to get the final say on how the document will be structured. In the legal arena, it's rare that one person will be the master. Rather, you have a bunch of individuals, plus their administrative assistants all adding to the confusion. The master is the person who performs the final edit. The obvious problem is that there are simply too many different ways of accomplishing a task with our one size fits all office suites. Want it to work like a typewriter? You can do that. Want it to work like a typesetting printing press? You can do that, too. In the world of DOS, we all had to learn how our programs worked. Then as GUIs became popular, programs expanded to allow many different ways of working. In 2007, MS added yet another method with the Ribbon. It would be great to use a more structured environment like LyX/LaTeX. But, the learning curve there is so steep that I can't imagine any business professional having the patience to learn it. Virgil -Original Message- From: Felmon Davis Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 12:41 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On Fri, 3 May 2013, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I never even try to share documents between different programs, such as Word and LO or OO. I never even try to share documents between two users using both the same program *and* the same document template, if the program is Word (or LO /OO). With these applications, the re-use of content is exclusively limited to raw, unformatted text. Trying anything else will drive you up the walls. your walls must be very adhesive. I share documents with people all the time because a couple of committees I've been on had me as the 'master of documents', that is, I would take other people's work and bundle it together, edit and produce drafts for them to work on, then I would do up the final report. they almost always are using some version of Word. sure, there are problems but my walls are pretty footprint-free. but I think this goes to show not only are there different standards of tolerance for problems, there different magnitudes of problems, thus, if I were dealing with 100 people instead of six or seven, it might be a different issue. of course I'm not denying there are other solutions which are technically superior in some way. but for many of us the situation is not as dire as you paint it, walls and all. F. If you need collaborative authoring, you need something that *imposes* a pre-defined document structure (such as e.g. an XML schema, LaTeX document classes unfortunately are not as restrictive) and thus absolutely locks out *any* possiblity of finger-painting, and preferrably something that also provides seamless integration for revision control systems such as e.g. Subversion. With LyX/LaTeX, structured XML authoring applications (or some document processing applications like Worperfect or Framemaker, provided the authors are perfectly disciplined), collaborative authoring is possible to a certain degree. With Word (or LO/OO) it is strictly impossible at any reasonable degree of efficiency. If there was a way in LO/OO to imperatively re-strict the user interface for a certain document to the application of styles defined within the document, this might improve things, but given how styles are implemented in LO/OO, I doubt that it would really work. Besides that styles don't hold structure information anyway, since templates aren't schemas in LO/OO. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- Felmon Davis You'd like to do it instantaneously, but that's too slow. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
I never even try to share documents between different programs, such as Word and LO or OO. I never even try to share documents between two users using both the same program *and* the same document template, if the program is Word (or LO /OO). With these applications, the re-use of content is exclusively limited to raw, unformatted text. Trying anything else will drive you up the walls. If you need collaborative authoring, you need something that *imposes* a pre-defined document structure (such as e.g. an XML schema, LaTeX document classes unfortunately are not as restrictive) and thus absolutely locks out *any* possiblity of finger-painting, and preferrably something that also provides seamless integration for revision control systems such as e.g. Subversion. With LyX/LaTeX, structured XML authoring applications (or some document processing applications like Worperfect or Framemaker, provided the authors are perfectly disciplined), collaborative authoring is possible to a certain degree. With Word (or LO/OO) it is strictly impossible at any reasonable degree of efficiency. If there was a way in LO/OO to imperatively re-strict the user interface for a certain document to the application of styles defined within the document, this might improve things, but given how styles are implemented in LO/OO, I doubt that it would really work. Besides that styles don't hold structure information anyway, since templates aren't schemas in LO/OO. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
On Fri, 3 May 2013, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I never even try to share documents between different programs, such as Word and LO or OO. I never even try to share documents between two users using both the same program *and* the same document template, if the program is Word (or LO /OO). With these applications, the re-use of content is exclusively limited to raw, unformatted text. Trying anything else will drive you up the walls. your walls must be very adhesive. I share documents with people all the time because a couple of committees I've been on had me as the 'master of documents', that is, I would take other people's work and bundle it together, edit and produce drafts for them to work on, then I would do up the final report. they almost always are using some version of Word. sure, there are problems but my walls are pretty footprint-free. but I think this goes to show not only are there different standards of tolerance for problems, there different magnitudes of problems, thus, if I were dealing with 100 people instead of six or seven, it might be a different issue. of course I'm not denying there are other solutions which are technically superior in some way. but for many of us the situation is not as dire as you paint it, walls and all. F. If you need collaborative authoring, you need something that *imposes* a pre-defined document structure (such as e.g. an XML schema, LaTeX document classes unfortunately are not as restrictive) and thus absolutely locks out *any* possiblity of finger-painting, and preferrably something that also provides seamless integration for revision control systems such as e.g. Subversion. With LyX/LaTeX, structured XML authoring applications (or some document processing applications like Worperfect or Framemaker, provided the authors are perfectly disciplined), collaborative authoring is possible to a certain degree. With Word (or LO/OO) it is strictly impossible at any reasonable degree of efficiency. If there was a way in LO/OO to imperatively re-strict the user interface for a certain document to the application of styles defined within the document, this might improve things, but given how styles are implemented in LO/OO, I doubt that it would really work. Besides that styles don't hold structure information anyway, since templates aren't schemas in LO/OO. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- Felmon Davis You'd like to do it instantaneously, but that's too slow. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Hi :) A big +1 to that. Regards from Tom :) From: Felmon Davis dav...@union.edu To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Friday, 3 May 2013, 17:41 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On Fri, 3 May 2013, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I never even try to share documents between different programs, such as Word and LO or OO. I never even try to share documents between two users using both the same program *and* the same document template, if the program is Word (or LO /OO). With these applications, the re-use of content is exclusively limited to raw, unformatted text. Trying anything else will drive you up the walls. your walls must be very adhesive. I share documents with people all the time because a couple of committees I've been on had me as the 'master of documents', that is, I would take other people's work and bundle it together, edit and produce drafts for them to work on, then I would do up the final report. they almost always are using some version of Word. sure, there are problems but my walls are pretty footprint-free. but I think this goes to show not only are there different standards of tolerance for problems, there different magnitudes of problems, thus, if I were dealing with 100 people instead of six or seven, it might be a different issue. of course I'm not denying there are other solutions which are technically superior in some way. but for many of us the situation is not as dire as you paint it, walls and all. F. If you need collaborative authoring, you need something that *imposes* a pre-defined document structure (such as e.g. an XML schema, LaTeX document classes unfortunately are not as restrictive) and thus absolutely locks out *any* possiblity of finger-painting, and preferrably something that also provides seamless integration for revision control systems such as e.g. Subversion. With LyX/LaTeX, structured XML authoring applications (or some document processing applications like Worperfect or Framemaker, provided the authors are perfectly disciplined), collaborative authoring is possible to a certain degree. With Word (or LO/OO) it is strictly impossible at any reasonable degree of efficiency. If there was a way in LO/OO to imperatively re-strict the user interface for a certain document to the application of styles defined within the document, this might improve things, but given how styles are implemented in LO/OO, I doubt that it would really work. Besides that styles don't hold structure information anyway, since templates aren't schemas in LO/OO. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- Felmon Davis You'd like to do it instantaneously, but that's too slow. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
I tend to agree with Wolfgang on this one. I think the difference for Felmon is that you are the master of documents. Sounds like its your job to clean up everyone's mess and you seem to get the final say on how the document will be structured. In the legal arena, it's rare that one person will be the master. Rather, you have a bunch of individuals, plus their administrative assistants all adding to the confusion. The master is the person who performs the final edit. The obvious problem is that there are simply too many different ways of accomplishing a task with our one size fits all office suites. Want it to work like a typewriter? You can do that. Want it to work like a typesetting printing press? You can do that, too. In the world of DOS, we all had to learn how our programs worked. Then as GUIs became popular, programs expanded to allow many different ways of working. In 2007, MS added yet another method with the Ribbon. It would be great to use a more structured environment like LyX/LaTeX. But, the learning curve there is so steep that I can't imagine any business professional having the patience to learn it. Virgil -Original Message- From: Felmon Davis Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 12:41 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles On Fri, 3 May 2013, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I never even try to share documents between different programs, such as Word and LO or OO. I never even try to share documents between two users using both the same program *and* the same document template, if the program is Word (or LO /OO). With these applications, the re-use of content is exclusively limited to raw, unformatted text. Trying anything else will drive you up the walls. your walls must be very adhesive. I share documents with people all the time because a couple of committees I've been on had me as the 'master of documents', that is, I would take other people's work and bundle it together, edit and produce drafts for them to work on, then I would do up the final report. they almost always are using some version of Word. sure, there are problems but my walls are pretty footprint-free. but I think this goes to show not only are there different standards of tolerance for problems, there different magnitudes of problems, thus, if I were dealing with 100 people instead of six or seven, it might be a different issue. of course I'm not denying there are other solutions which are technically superior in some way. but for many of us the situation is not as dire as you paint it, walls and all. F. If you need collaborative authoring, you need something that *imposes* a pre-defined document structure (such as e.g. an XML schema, LaTeX document classes unfortunately are not as restrictive) and thus absolutely locks out *any* possiblity of finger-painting, and preferrably something that also provides seamless integration for revision control systems such as e.g. Subversion. With LyX/LaTeX, structured XML authoring applications (or some document processing applications like Worperfect or Framemaker, provided the authors are perfectly disciplined), collaborative authoring is possible to a certain degree. With Word (or LO/OO) it is strictly impossible at any reasonable degree of efficiency. If there was a way in LO/OO to imperatively re-strict the user interface for a certain document to the application of styles defined within the document, this might improve things, but given how styles are implemented in LO/OO, I doubt that it would really work. Besides that styles don't hold structure information anyway, since templates aren't schemas in LO/OO. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- Felmon Davis You'd like to do it instantaneously, but that's too slow. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Paragraph styles
Alex wrote, 4. Document collaboration is a real bugaboo. We lawyers share documents repeatedly. I would create a document using styles, and send it off to a colleague for further edits. I would get it back with a mess of styles and direct formatting. I see no answer to this conundrum, simply because our programs allow so many different ways of accomplishing the same tasks, and I couldn't expect a colleague to listen to my styles tutorial when all he wanted to do was make a small edit to my proposed contract. Exactly. Try maintaining consistency when drafting a consortium contract between 7 or 8 parties, using MS Word, LO or OOo, and see what the document ends up like - a complete disaster ! I never even try to share documents between different programs, such as Word and LO or OO. Even though they may be compatible, that is an relative concept. There are so many subtle difference between the way the programs handle document files that I found it futile to try to convert from one to the next. Thus, in my law office, my computer had Word, OpenOffice, and WordPerfect all installed. Even today, many lawyers still use WordPerfect, so I could adapt to whatever my counterpart was using. Virgil -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
