Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-10 1:01 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak and...@pitonyak.org wrote: No wait, that is in account settings. probably a better place for it than in the global preferences. No, because certain accounts you may want to treat differently. Off hand, i would say that it should be configurable at the folder level. That would be a great feature, probably doable in an addon... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-10 1:36 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: QuoteCollapse collapses all but the last post in the thread. Works great on lists where people do not trim the messages they are replying to. I agree, been using it for many years... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-09, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Fri, Sep 09, 2011 at 05:43:28PM +0100, Nuno J. Silva wrote: On 2011-09-09, Dave Douglas wrote: How Does one get off this list? I have done everything suggested and still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in. I asked one question got no help. PLEASE take me off the list! To get off this list, you have to *unsubscribe*. Instructions for that have been appended to ALL MESSAGES IN ALL THE DISCUSSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN FILLING YOUR E-MAIL BOX, and yet you managed to ignore that. Congratulations. Ease up. The guy said he followed all the instructions. I managed to miss that part of his post. Many apologies, Dave. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 8 Sep 2011 at 14:31, Ken Springer wrote: With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen to use for replying to newsgroups. Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and doesn't properly do anything right for places like this. I think that single paragraph explains why this thread has become so heated. YOU are reading this list on a NEWSGROUP. But the list is also available as a EMAIL LIST and an archive of that same EMAIL LIST on Nabble. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority are subscribed to the email list or view it on Nabble, and as such consider it as an email list and not a newsgroup. Newsgroup people have shown over the years to have different practices than emailers. Bottom posters probably predominate, also the practice of long quotes seems far more prevalent there. And noting the comments about threading, most newsgroup readers do it via the header information. Email clients do it in various ways and I suspect Pegasus is far from unique in doing if from the subject line - and many email programs have never heard of threading... I do receive a number of lists via newsgroups, using Gravity. But I by far prefer email so this is my chosen option for this list. We are never going to agree on these issues due the huge differences in opinion between the newsgroup, email and forum people. So let us close these threads immediately and accept our differences. Dave http://www.davesergeant.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-09 12:21 AM Dave Sergeant wrote: I think that single paragraph explains why this thread has become so heated. YOU are reading this list on a NEWSGROUP. But the list is also available as a EMAIL LIST and an archive of that same EMAIL LIST on Nabble. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority are subscribed to the email list or view it on Nabble, and as such consider it as an email list and not a newsgroup. Irrelevant. All of the OpenOffice.org lists were email. Some of us used Gmane to read them as a newsgroup. The stated OOo netiquette was to intersperse. Many other email lists are the same. It is irrelevant that some of us read this email list through Gmane. Proper netiquette is the same. Some people are too obstinate to post properly. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 11:37 PM, Ken Springer wrote: The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. MSOffice is widely used, dont use LibreOffice then. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/09/2011, Dave Sergeant d...@davesergeant.com wrote: On 8 Sep 2011 at 14:31, Ken Springer wrote: With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen to use for replying to newsgroups. Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and doesn't properly do anything right for places like this. Agreed; yahoo is terrible, stopped using it years ago. Why would someone choose product with such poor functionality, then blame others for not being able to provide a simple ability to reply to messages with appropriate quote (e.g. angle bracket () character) convention??? Anyway, reading the press about the demise of yet another md of yahoo, with luck yahoo will disappear and take their mail users too. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 8:04 PM, Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com wrote: Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom? I only look at them if and when I have a desire to learn something about how the list works - like, maybe, how to unsubscribe. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/09/2011 02:52 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom? I only look at them if and when I have a desire to learn something about how the list works - like, maybe, how to unsubscribe. And let's notice it's a bit longer than de 4 lines of the usual Netiquette.. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 10:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: The headers state that you are using YahooMailClassic/14.0.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 That is not an email client. It is, sorry. It's a web based MUA. That is an online web mail service (and a very poor one. Gmail works much better). But Gmail's is also poor. -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 09:58 PM, Tom Davies wrote: I use a standard email client Do you even know what's a standard? -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 6:21 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: Well, anyway, when someone fails to read the .sig, or follow some other rule, other people just point them what they missed, and everyone moves on. It's not a big deal. When it happens occasionally or less, you're right. But, if too many people don't follow the rules, for anything, then it becomes a big deal. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 7:04 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 09/08/2011 10:50 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: The headers state that you are using YahooMailClassic/14.0.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 That is not an email client. It is, sorry. It's a web based MUA. That is an online web mail service (and a very poor one. Gmail works much better). But Gmail's is also poor. I have always thought it was as Larry describes. But a couple of Wikipedia articles agree with you. Dang, something new to remember! :-D -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 2:40 AM, e-letter wrote: Anyway, reading the press about the demise of yet another md of yahoo, md= ? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 6:21 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: Well, anyway, when someone fails to read the .sig, or follow some other rule, other people just point them what they missed, and everyone moves on. It's not a big deal. When it happens occasionally or less, you're right. But, if too many people don't follow the rules, for anything, then it becomes a big deal. I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people who would rather subscribe through a web interface. An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules, and how to unsubscribe. Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides... -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 12:21 AM, Dave Sergeant wrote: On 8 Sep 2011 at 14:31, Ken Springer wrote: With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen to use for replying to newsgroups. Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and doesn't properly do anything right for places like this. I think that single paragraph explains why this thread has become so heated. YOU are reading this list on a NEWSGROUP. But the list is also available as a EMAIL LIST and an archive of that same EMAIL LIST on Nabble. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority are subscribed to the email list or view it on Nabble, and as such consider it as an email list and not a newsgroup. You've brought up a point, Dave, I hadn't thought of. I do use the Gmane interface. Since you mentioned Nabble, it once again made me wonder if the display there was a mirror to the list I see in Thunderbird, so I checked. And it is. Which is the way I would organize an online help system. I am suspecting that by using folders and threading in Thunderbird, I could accomplish a very similar display. But I would have to constantly delete the email to have some free space on the hard drive! :-D When I get some time, aka after the summer work season is over, I'll have to remember to take a more in depth look at the Nabble interface. Newsgroup people have shown over the years to have different practices than emailers. Bottom posters probably predominate, also the practice of long quotes seems far more prevalent there. And noting the comments about threading, most newsgroup readers do it via the header information. Email clients do it in various ways and I suspect Pegasus is far from unique in doing if from the subject line - and many email programs have never heard of threading... I used to use my Yahoo account regularly, but am dropping it. I don't remember it being able to thread either, but it does have filters to direct mail to folders. I do receive a number of lists via newsgroups, using Gravity. But I by far prefer email so this is my chosen option for this list. Gravity??? The messages just fall out of the sky?? :-D My apologies, I just couldn't resist! We are never going to agree on these issues due the huge differences in opinion between the newsgroup, email and forum people. So let us close these threads immediately and accept our differences. The users don't have to agree. LO needs to set up something more official in the way of netiquette than what they have now. And regardless of which interface is used, i.e. the mailing list, Nabble, or Gmane, require and enforce the netiquette rules they develop. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 1:54 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 09/08/2011 11:37 PM, Ken Springer wrote: The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. MSOffice is widely used, dont use LibreOffice then. Uhm, Tom Davies wrote that. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 6:21 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: Well, anyway, when someone fails to read the .sig, or follow some other rule, other people just point them what they missed, and everyone moves on. It's not a big deal. When it happens occasionally or less, you're right. But, if too many people don't follow the rules, for anything, then it becomes a big deal. I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people who would rather subscribe through a web interface. An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules, and how to unsubscribe. Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides... I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the user's registered email address. And then have the user acknowledge the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette, etc.. Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing software. When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-) ) they can't claim they didn't know. And... You could create said document in LO! ::grin:: But sending the user a PDF would be better. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people who would rather subscribe through a web interface. An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules, and how to unsubscribe. Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides... I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the user's registered email address. And then have the user acknowledge the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette, etc.. Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing software. When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-) ) they can't claim they didn't know. And... You could create said document in LO! ::grin:: But sending the user a PDF would be better. :-) No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations *before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing it, it should be in plain HTML. [1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules. (And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.) Even if the user wants to skip it, they still has to skip each slide to get to the submit form. Also, a key feature would be that users who are already used to mailing lists and find the subscription email can easily skip this and subscribe by mail. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
How Does one get off this list? I have done everything suggested and still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in. I asked one question got no help. PLEASE take me off the list! -Original Message- From: Nuno J. Silva Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 9:01 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO MailingList Guidelines Page? On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people who would rather subscribe through a web interface. An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules, and how to unsubscribe. Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides... I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the user's registered email address. And then have the user acknowledge the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette, etc.. Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing software. When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-) ) they can't claim they didn't know. And... You could create said document in LO! ::grin:: But sending the user a PDF would be better. :-) No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations *before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing it, it should be in plain HTML. [1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules. (And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.) Even if the user wants to skip it, they still has to skip each slide to get to the submit form. Also, a key feature would be that users who are already used to mailing lists and find the subscription email can easily skip this and subscribe by mail. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
From: Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people who would rather subscribe through a web interface. An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules, and how to unsubscribe. Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides... I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the user's registered email address. And then have the user acknowledge the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette, etc.. Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing software. When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-) ) they can't claim they didn't know. And... You could create said document in LO! ::grin:: But sending the user a PDF would be better. :-) No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations *before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing it, it should be in plain HTML. [1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules. (And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.) Even if the user wants to skip it, they still has to skip each slide to get to the submit form. Also, a key feature would be that users who are already used to mailing lists and find the subscription email can easily skip this and subscribe by mail. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted LO List I have refrained from getting on this thread simply because it is a minuscule discussion in the grand scheme of the universe. BUT this is the kind of attitude that has kept Linux and Open Source software in the niche it is in, at least in any part of the tech world I am involved in. And out of respect for those it offends I bottom post. GET OVER IT. John McAtee -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-09, Dave Douglas wrote: How Does one get off this list? I have done everything suggested and still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in. I asked one question got no help. PLEASE take me off the list! To get off this list, you have to *unsubscribe*. Instructions for that have been appended to ALL MESSAGES IN ALL THE DISCUSSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN FILLING YOUR E-MAIL BOX, and yet you managed to ignore that. Congratulations. Heck, your message even arrived here with *two* of these list signatures. Go read it to see the instructions. X-ray glasses are not needed. You can also look into the message headers for the unsubscribe address. Unsubscription is done *exactly* as subscription. (Now please just tell me you're joking. You're trolling, right? I can see the hidden cameras...) I'm not going to quote the signature, because this message will just get a brand new list signature below, you see, after my gopherhole address: -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Dave Douglas wrote (09-09-11 18:25) How Does one get off this list? I have done everything suggested and still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in. I asked one question got no help. PLEASE take me off the list! The same way as you subscribed, only the effect is in the opposite direction ;-) -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 10:01 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 9:19 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: I guess some people who don't know the rules and aren't used to mailing lists (which includes looking for guidelines before posting) are people who would rather subscribe through a web interface. An idea would be, while keeping the usual mailing list stuff (the ability to subscribe by sending an email to a specified address and so on), having a web subscription interface that would drive the user through two or three slides concisely explaining some important rules, and how to unsubscribe. Of course /then/ some people would skip the slides... I've often thought of something similar, i.e. when a use registers/signs up, that use automatically gets a document sent to the user's registered email address. And then have the user acknowledge the user has received and understands the posting rules, netiquette, etc.. Something similar to having to agree to a EULA when installing software. When the user gets his/her post pulled for not following they guidelines (I'm assuming continuing errors in posting, not the occasional error where the user may have had a simple brain lapse :-) ) they can't claim they didn't know. And... You could create said document in LO! ::grin:: But sending the user a PDF would be better. :-) No, the idea here is exactly to force users through small[1] explanations *before* they subscribe. That is, said web subscription wouldn't be made until the user finished the small slideshow. And to avoid overdoing it, it should be in plain HTML. I took your slide idea backwards. :-) I read it as *after* you subscribed, you would see the slides. Having it before, as a simplified explanation of what is expected, is a great idea. As is plain and simple HTML. I took a introductory web class one time, and it was mentioned that too many pages get too busy, making it hard to find the pertinent information you are looking for. [1] small means it shouldn't be the entire contents of RFC 1855 and additional guidelines, just a simple set of rules. Agreed. (And actually, I think sending it as a PDF instead of a plain text e-mail would be a bad idea. If you're sending it by e-mail, why not just put it in the e-mail? PDFs aren't good for on-screen reading, anyway.) I always take ideas like this, and view them from the perspective a new, inexperience user with a lack of knowledge about X. That being said... I would submit that any simple set of guidelines that would be included in your slides would be insufficient to provide the information to many, if not most, new users. I don't think most of the younger users would have a clue as to how to properly write a post. Until the new users are given *all* requirements of proper posting, you will be asking for problems and confusion. I would include most if not all of the Netmeister's Learn to Quote pages in said document. Too many times I've seen rules posted with absolutely no justification or explanation as to why the rule was put in effect. When I've come up against this, I've usually gone away irritated to say the least. But, when I know *why* the rule is in effect, it usually sheds new light on the reason for the rule. Not only should we provide the new user with the rules, we should provide the reasons/justifications for the rules as an education for the inexperienced. Old salts can simply skip the reading. I learned more about posting to newsgroups from that article than I'd ever managed to learn before. And while I've not been able to do much with newsgroups over the years, I have been using computers since the 8-bit days. Many people don't know how to use any mail client properly, would they even know how to deal with the email other than read it online? And something that is simply put in the body of the email cannot be comprehensive, well formatted, or even professional looking. By attaching a PDF file, you can put the information in a file that includes the LO look and feel of the documentation for LO. Also, as most of the less knowledgeable users may have difficulty in printing and/or downloading the email itself, I suspect most know how to download attachments. :-) Alternatively, you could provide a link to the document that would automatically download it. snip -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) Many apologies for the rude and unhelpful tone of previous replies! Also many apologies that your original problem couldn't be answered A quick copypaste from the guidelines http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ really doesn't take long. Check which e-mail address you subscribed to the list People sometimes report that they are having problems un-subscribing from a list. Sometimes, the reason is simply that they are not sending the un-subscription request from the same e-mail address that they originally used to sign-up. If you have multiple e-mail addresses and are no longer sure what address you used when you subscribed, please look at the headers of a message from the list (look for a button or link such as Details or Raw Message or Original Message in your e-mail program or web-mail page). Your e-mail address will be listed in the Delivered-To entry or the Return-Path entry, such as illustrated below: Delivered-To: john@example.com [...] Return-Path: users-bounces-1234-john.doe=example@global.libreoffice.org Notice that in the Return-Path, your address is embedded in another address, and the @ is replaced by =. Hopefully that helpsGood luck and regards fromTom :) --- On Fri, 9/9/11, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: From: Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Friday, 9 September, 2011, 17:43 On 2011-09-09, Dave Douglas wrote: How Does one get off this list? I have done everything suggested and still my email box is filled with discussions I have no interest in. I asked one question got no help. PLEASE take me off the list! To get off this list, you have to *unsubscribe*. Instructions for that have been appended to ALL MESSAGES IN ALL THE DISCUSSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN FILLING YOUR E-MAIL BOX, and yet you managed to ignore that. Congratulations. Heck, your message even arrived here with *two* of these list signatures. Go read it to see the instructions. X-ray glasses are not needed. You can also look into the message headers for the unsubscribe address. Unsubscription is done *exactly* as subscription. (Now please just tell me you're joking. You're trolling, right? I can see the hidden cameras...) I'm not going to quote the signature, because this message will just get a brand new list signature below, you see, after my gopherhole address: -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 01:37:51PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011-09-08 1:12 PM Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from the message. By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer which were your answers. Every line of the post I am replying to has a in front of it if using a plain text reader. In thunderbird as I have it configured there is a coloured vertical line before all of the text I am replying to and not in front of my reply. Whether that shows up is a function of what MUA you use to read the message, or perhaps what the list software does. I use Mutt and your posts show a before the first character of the first line of quote and a + before each subsequent line of the quoted passage. Also, you don't isolate the quote from what you write with one or more blank lines top and bottom. This adds to the confusion, at least for me. I was giving specific answers to each part of your post. Interspersing makes it clear what specific point I was responding to. True. snip... -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 07:58:52PM +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more popular. Hold onto your hats! Is someone holding a gun to your head to force you to use your mail client's defaults? Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers? Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers? Regards from Do the defaults include not trimming or wrapping your lines? snip of superfluous crap -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 2:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/08/2011 10:42 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote: This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? I dont agree with you. There are many nuances as to why sometimes top posting is a better choice, but, because this is really a personal preference that I frequently see turn into a mean-spirited flame war, I won't bother to enumerate them here and now. Are you aware of any email software that can be configured to easily deal with bottom posting (ie, when you hit reply, it places the cursor at the bottom of the message rather than the top, and, while reading the email, it skips the repeated top content and places the view screen beginning at the first new content)? I always figured that I should top AND bottom post. You decide if that is so that everyone will be happy, or no one will be happy :-) Thunderbird will start your reply at the bottom. And I've seen others with this option also. But I've never seen any email program that will go simply to the new content. I'm not sure it would even be possible, as a lot of where the new content in would depend on what the writer/poster did. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 2:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/08/2011 10:42 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote: This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? I dont agree with you. There are many nuances as to why sometimes top posting is a better choice, but, because this is really a personal preference that I frequently see turn into a mean-spirited flame war, I won't bother to enumerate them here and now. Are you aware of any email software that can be configured to easily deal with bottom posting (ie, when you hit reply, it places the cursor at the bottom of the message rather than the top, and, while reading the email, it skips the repeated top content and places the view screen beginning at the first new content)? I always figured that I should top AND bottom post. You decide if that is so that everyone will be happy, or no one will be happy :-) Thunderbird will start your reply at the bottom. And I've seen others with this option also. But I've never seen any email program that will go simply to the new content. I'm not sure it would even be possible, as a lot of where the new content in would depend on what the writer/poster did. I guess some programs will have an option to collapse quoted text. I suggest searching in addons.mozilla.org for a thunderbird extension that does that (I thought QuoteColors did it, but apparently it doesn't). Other clients will do a pretty good job, like Claws-Mail, but I don't know about collapsing quoted text. As for Gnus, either it does have some way to collapse quoted text or you hack it so that it does. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 5:33 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: On 2011-09-09, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 2:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/08/2011 10:42 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 09/08/2011 04:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote: This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? I dont agree with you. There are many nuances as to why sometimes top posting is a better choice, but, because this is really a personal preference that I frequently see turn into a mean-spirited flame war, I won't bother to enumerate them here and now. Are you aware of any email software that can be configured to easily deal with bottom posting (ie, when you hit reply, it places the cursor at the bottom of the message rather than the top, and, while reading the email, it skips the repeated top content and places the view screen beginning at the first new content)? I always figured that I should top AND bottom post. You decide if that is so that everyone will be happy, or no one will be happy :-) Thunderbird will start your reply at the bottom. And I've seen others with this option also. But I've never seen any email program that will go simply to the new content. I'm not sure it would even be possible, as a lot of where the new content in would depend on what the writer/poster did. I guess some programs will have an option to collapse quoted text. I suggest searching in addons.mozilla.org for a thunderbird extension that does that (I thought QuoteColors did it, but apparently it doesn't). Quote colors would really be nice, but it's incompatible with this version of TB at the moment. I hope the author updates it. I did find Quote Highlight and QuoteCollapse, and I suspect the second one does what you are requesting. I can take a screenshot of what it does and email it if you would like to see the results. Other clients will do a pretty good job, like Claws-Mail, but I don't know about collapsing quoted text. As for Gnus, either it does have some way to collapse quoted text or you hack it so that it does. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-09 7:12 PM Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 5:33 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: I guess some programs will have an option to collapse quoted text. I suggest searching in addons.mozilla.org for a thunderbird extension that does that (I thought QuoteColors did it, but apparently it doesn't). Quote colors would really be nice, but it's incompatible with this version of TB at the moment. I hope the author updates it. I hacked the version compatibility on QuoteColors and it works fine on TB 6.02 I did find Quote Highlight and QuoteCollapse, and I suspect the second one does what you are requesting. I can take a screenshot of what it does and email it if you would like to see the results. QuoteCollapse collapses all but the last post in the thread. Works great on lists where people do not trim the messages they are replying to. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 8 Sep 2011 at 8:45, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain. But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own. This list seems to suffer from long sections of quoted text with sometimes just a single line of new stuff right at the bottom (eg. 'I agree'). Provided people cut out all but what is relevant to their reply I personally don't mind whether it is top, bottom or interspersed. But as one with a casual interest in most of the posts, the ability to quickly see the gist without having to scroll down several page worths is vital. I am told by the way that top posting is far preferable to disabled people using reading aids, as they hardly want all the old stuff spoken by their machine before they get to the new stuff. Dave http://www.davesergeant.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 6:45 AM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain. But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own. It seems to me, an inherent problem with this kind of free for all in posting styles is you never know where to look for replies. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 04:24 PM, Dave Sergeant wrote: For long threads, scrolling down to the bottom to read the new stuff is a pain. But if you want to top post, or bottom post, to each his own. This list seems to suffer from long sections of quoted text with sometimes just a single line of new stuff right at the bottom (eg. 'I agree'). 1°) the single I agree line is useless 2°) When bottom posting one should go to the end of the road and trim -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08, Dave Sergeant wrote: On 8 Sep 2011 at 8:45, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: [...] I am told by the way that top posting is far preferable to disabled people using reading aids, as they hardly want all the old stuff spoken by their machine before they get to the new stuff. I guess the machine can recognize well-formed e-mail messages (that is, not the kind that gets sent by clients which default to top-posting), and then just ignore the quoted content. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi, Tom, On 9/8/11 6:13 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Top posting is fine. Almost everyone top-posts except some people in a few OpenSource mailing lists. If you need to communicate with anyone that works in an office then you probably have to top-post otherwise they will probably just ignore your email and delete it without reading it.. Top posting essentially ends up with a layout/format that is similar to forums, but in reverse. All new answers are at the top of the discussion, and in forums the new answers are at the bottom. And if the discussion is long, and the poster doesn't trim or the number of pertinent replies gets large, finding the section of the message that is being replied to requires a lot of scrolling. And can be a huge time waster, as it is in long forum threads. I know this about forum threads, I'm involved with one now that is 6 web pages in length currently. A few old-timers here might have to accept that we are here to help open things up for people not to bully, restrict and make unnecessary demands. Asking people to follow the rules is not bullying, restricting, or making unnecessary demands. It simply makes it easier for everyone to know where the new replies will be found. I think the core problems of this dilemma of where to post is lack of education, and lack of enforcement of the rules. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 7:33 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the latest post. If you're following only one thread/subthread in the messages, and have been able to keep up. :-D But I follow a lot of things, in a lot of places, and I often have to go back to older messages, even if trimming is being used, to refresh my memory. (What's left of the memory! LOL) Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite remember some detail. Quick scrolling? What's that? LOL Seriously, though, if interspersion is used, you don't have to scroll anywhere. This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? Absolutely not! If a person is alienated by being asked to follow the rules, then that person doesn't belong, or play well with the other kids. :-) Using that philosophy, if driving my car backwards down the street is what I'm familiar with, should I be able to do that when I come visit you? Should I be allowed to drive backwards on the other side of the road? A newsgroup is a community, and for any community to function efficiently, rules need to be established, followed, and enforced. It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find them imo. Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the rules, you know where to find the answers. All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had rules that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has never been successful AFAIK. LO's website, though, is another story! :-D -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 8:03 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Over the past few months there has been a steadily increasing amount of top-posting. It is not just one or 2 people. Outside of LibreOffice and OpenSource everyone else uses top-post almost exclusively. Smart phones make it difficult to post any other way. Mozilla's netiquette page specifies interspersion. Anyone using a smartphone for something like this isn't interested in quality and depth in a conversation anyway. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 8:20 AM, Chris Morgan wrote: In most cases top-posting is preferable. However, in this 'list' environment, bottom-posting and selective quoting works better for retaining context. However, we cannot enforce this without alienating the very people this list is aimed at (ie everyone), so we will just have to live with a few inconsistencies and inconveniences. I disagree, you can enforce it. You just have to have the courage to do so. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 05:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote: I think the core problems of this dilemma of where to post is lack of education, and lack of enforcement of the rules. Oh Ken, thay got education! but the kind of education saying: Well, let's quickly reply: the correcpondant will always understand -- RMA. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 9:31 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 09/08/2011 05:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote: I think the core problems of this dilemma of where to post is lack of education, and lack of enforcement of the rules. Oh Ken, thay got education! but the kind of education saying: Well, let's quickly reply: the correcpondant will always understand LMAO -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 16:09 On 9/8/11 7:33 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Often you already know roughly what is going on and only need to read the latest post. If you're following only one thread/subthread in the messages, and have been able to keep up. :-D But I follow a lot of things, in a lot of places, and I often have to go back to older messages, even if trimming is being used, to refresh my memory. (What's left of the memory! LOL) Sometimes people might need quick easy access to previous comments and a quick scroll downwards can help them gain context if they can't quite remember some detail. Quick scrolling? What's that? LOL Seriously, though, if interspersion is used, you don't have to scroll anywhere. This list should allow people to use what they are familiar with rather than try to alienate new users surely? Absolutely not! If a person is alienated by being asked to follow the rules, then that person doesn't belong, or play well with the other kids. :-) Using that philosophy, if driving my car backwards down the street is what I'm familiar with, should I be able to do that when I come visit you? Should I be allowed to drive backwards on the other side of the road? A newsgroup is a community, and for any community to function efficiently, rules need to be established, followed, and enforced. It's a little unwelcoming to say that all new users are lazy slobs and even worse to hide answers away where they wont find them imo. Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the rules, you know where to find the answers. All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had rules that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has never been successful AFAIK. LO's website, though, is another story! :-D -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Regards from Tom :) Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you. clip / Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the rules, you know where to find the answers. All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had rules that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has never been successful AFAIK. This passage did not have attribution marks and therefore appears to be from you. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Regards from Tom :) Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you. clip / Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the rules, you know where to find the answers. All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had rules that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has never been successful AFAIK. This passage did not have attribution marks and therefore appears to be from you. Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 18:53 On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Regards from Tom :) Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you. clip / Following the rules does not hide the answers. In fact, it's just the opposite, IMO. If you follow, and enforce, the rules, and you know the rules, you know where to find the answers. All civilizations, cultures, communities that are/were successful had rules that were followed. Anarchy, everyone doing what they wanted, has never been successful AFAIK. This passage did not have attribution marks and therefore appears to be from you. Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
-sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote: Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you. Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm, what was I talking about again? Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting. No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper citation/attribution marks? Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly. Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work. With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the other format. So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Can't you at least delete signatures? -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 12:10 PM Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. Bullshit. You continually do not show the proper attribution in the posts you reply to. You have not countered this in any post. This has been mentioned many times but you refuse to correct your email client behaviour. Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. What office workers do is irrelevant. How would support givers properly interspersing and trimming their replies keep office workers from using LibreOffice? How would properly interspersing a reply to their questions alienate them? Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. And that statement is totally irrelevant to the question. So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? How is the request to people giving support to properly intersperse and trim have anything to do with getting people to use LibreOffice? -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more popular. Hold onto your hats! Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers? Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers? Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: From: Nuno J. Silva nunojsi...@ist.utl.pt Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:33 -sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote: On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote: Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you. Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm, what was I talking about again? Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting. No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper citation/attribution marks? Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly. Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work. With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the other format. So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Can't you at least delete signatures? -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 2:10 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. Coming from you - someone who pretends that top posting advocates advocate blindly top-posting, when the reality is very different - that is really, really funny! Rotflmao! His arguments have not been countered by anything even remotely resembling logic or reason... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 2:58 PM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers? Why should 'normal office workers' be exempt from general rules of common courtesy? Sorry, Tom, you're a lazy ass, and a liar to boot (demonstrated as much far too many times for it to be an accident)... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more popular. Hold onto your hats! Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers? Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers? LibreOffice is meant to be used by office workers, among other users. We are just trying to make the mailing list a more pleasant place for normal email users. It's just that the mailing list is meant to be used by email users. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi to all, Some of you have convinced me to use top posting, since it is better. Some of you have convinced me to use bottom posting, since it is better. Some of you have convinced me to do snipping, since it is better. Obviously there isn't a black and white solution. *My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this discussion, I would be out of hear. Is it not time to put this to rest and move on with the business this list was created for? I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure a newcomer hear today would not be at all impressed with a list that has done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help to many people in the past. Don On 09/08/2011 02:58 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more popular. Hold onto your hats! Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers? Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers? Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: From: Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:33 -sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com wrote: On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote: Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you. Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm, what was I talking about again? Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting. No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper citation/attribution marks? Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly. Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work. With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the other format. So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Can't you at least delete signatures? -- *~~* Don C. Myers e-PRO Certified by the National Association of Realtors Manager, Farm and Rural Property Division
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from the message. By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer which were your answers. Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response is in a different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good spacing. From the 1st discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this time tho! Normally i think sure rudeness should not be answered at all. 'Regards' from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: From: Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:38 On 2011-09-08 12:10 PM Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. Bullshit. You continually do not show the proper attribution in the posts you reply to. You have not countered this in any post. This has been mentioned many times but you refuse to correct your email client behaviour. Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. What office workers do is irrelevant. How would support givers properly interspersing and trimming their replies keep office workers from using LibreOffice? How would properly interspersing a reply to their questions alienate them? Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. And that statement is totally irrelevant to the question. So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? How is the request to people giving support to properly intersperse and trim have anything to do with getting people to use LibreOffice? -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi :) +1 Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com wrote: From: Don C. Myers donmy...@myersfarm.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 20:09 Hi to all, Some of you have convinced me to use top posting, since it is better. Some of you have convinced me to use bottom posting, since it is better. Some of you have convinced me to do snipping, since it is better. Obviously there isn't a black and white solution. *My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this discussion, I would be out of hear. Is it not time to put this to rest and move on with the business this list was created for? I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure a newcomer hear today would not be at all impressed with a list that has done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help to many people in the past. Don On 09/08/2011 02:58 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more popular. Hold onto your hats! Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers? Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers? Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 8/9/11, Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt wrote: From: Nuno J. Silvanunojsi...@ist.utl.pt Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 8 September, 2011, 19:33 -sigh- let's see if I can get this attribution thing fixed... gnus-outlook-deuglify-article couldn't process this message On 2011-09-08, Tom Davies wrote: On Thu, 8/9/11, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com wrote: On 9/8/11 11:37 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011-09-08 11:14 AM Tom Davies wrote: Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Not true. You have to scroll down to see what is being responded to then scroll back up to see the response. Since you do not include proper attribution marks for the posts you respond to, the immediate message you respond to appears to be written by you. Well, I guess if someone has a pretty damn good short term memory, then we really don't need any context at all. That's right, we need ... erm, what was I talking about again? Larry has just presented two other problems with top-posting. No, he didn't. He just showed that he has not read any of the posts yet as his arguments are already countered in previous posts. What was exactly your argument to support lack of proper citation/attribution marks? Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. Maybe we should instead teach office workers to use e-mail correctly. Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. Unlike betamax and VHS, top-posted emails and bottom-posted emails are both readable by the same kind of client, so that analogy won't work. With betamax and VHS, unless you buy a VCR that supports both, or two VCRs, you get to stick with the choice you made and you can't use the other format. So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 1:12 PM Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from the message. By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer which were your answers. Every line of the post I am replying to has a in front of it if using a plain text reader. In thunderbird as I have it configured there is a coloured vertical line before all of the text I am replying to and not in front of my reply. I was giving specific answers to each part of your post. Interspersing makes it clear what specific point I was responding to. Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response is in a different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good spacing. From the 1st discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this time tho! Normally i think sure rudeness should not be answered at all. It is rude to not fix your quote attributions after many asked to do so countless times. It is rude to not follow standard netiquette and continue to obstinately top post despite many requests. You should also delete the signatures at the bottom of the posts. When using plain text a properly configured email client automatically deletes everything after the delimiter (-- ). -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-08 12:58 PM Tom Davies wrote: Hi:) I use a standard email client in a standard way set on it's defaults. There are likely to be more people using such systems as LibreOffice becomes more popular. Hold onto your hats! The headers state that you are using YahooMailClassic/14.0.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 That is not an email client. That is an online web mail service (and a very poor one. Gmail works much better). It has been explained to you before how to change the settings. Why are people in here so determined to make things unpleasant and difficult for normal office workers? Nobody is trying to make anything difficult for normal office workers. When a regular poster refuses to follow standard netiquette they are making things difficult for other support givers. Is LibreOffice not meant to be used in offices by office workers? Yes it is, and that point is irrelevant to this discussion. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 1:09 PM, Don C. Myers wrote: Some of you have convinced me to use top posting, since it is better. Some of you have convinced me to use bottom posting, since it is better. Some of you have convinced me to do snipping, since it is better. Obviously there isn't a black and white solution. True, there isn't a 100% correct *absolute* *physical* solution as to the correct way to format. The solution is for everyone in any particular newsgroup to follow the same criteria and agreed upon formatting rules. AKA, the netiquette link at the bottom of every post. And, notably, the link on to how to format and quote replies. I got into a discussion about netiquette early on with a poster here, and in researching the issue, it just confirmed your statement about a black and white solution. What was apparent was, each and every newsgroup I looked at, that had netiquette rules, insisted you follow those rules. No one said their way was correct for *all* newsgroups. Just that their rules were correct for their newsgroup, and you were expected to follow them. For Tom, as much as I respect his knowledge about LO, he and others are so out of line in not following the rules for *this* newsgroup, I don't think it's funny. How can these folks tell their children, coworkers, friends, to follow certain rules when they don't follow the rules here? *My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this discussion, I would be out of hear. My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be something important enough to generate that much discussion. But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying to figure things out I'd just leave after awhile. And that would certainly not help the LO cause. :-) I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure a newcomer hear today would not be at all impressed with a list that has done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help to many people in the past. I certainly agree with you here. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 1:12 PM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi:) Look, the interspersed answers from Larry are practically unidentifiable from the message. By posting at the top (or bottom) it would have been clearer which were your answers. Sometimes interspersing becomes possible if i notice the other persons response is in a different colour but in plain text it just doesn't work without good spacing. From the 1st discernible answer i clearly wasn't missing much this time tho! Normally i think sure rudeness should not be answered at all. With all due respect Tom, the problem is you and the tools you've chosen to use for replying to newsgroups. Yahoo Mail just plain sucks and doesn't properly do anything right for places like this. I've not tried Gmail for something like newsgroups, but their conversational message display might work a bit better. And Larry is quite right, with Thunderbird, you have proper attributions so figuring out who said what isn't all that hard. :-) And a helluva a lot easier than figuring it out from a top posted message. FYI, this is another of your messages I've had to reformat manually because of your choice of tools. Getting tired of it. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 12:10 PM, Tom Davies wrote: snip Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. So, if painting graffiti all over walls and buildings was widely done, you'd be OK with them painting graffiti all over *your* walls and buildings? Just because something is widely practiced, doesn't make it right or acceptable. Think about it, even when you use the different programs in the LO suite, you're following the rules aren't you? :-) Do we want to stop officeworkers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. Following the rules will not make them stop using LibreOffice. Giving them an office package full of bugs that never get fixed, promising features that never arrive, and providing poor support is what will make them stop using Libre Office. snip Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. They may be ancient, but not necessarily out-dated. It all depends on what is comfortable with the reader. I had a hard time with LO's mailing list, and almost gave up and moved on. Then, I learned about the Gmane interface, not from LO's (IMO their crappy website, which I will comment on in that group when I have some free time) but from a mailing list post. Since then, except when things went south due to address changes, I've used exclusively since then. And will continue to do so. Nabble can go the way of the Kiwi bird, for all I care! :-D So, do we want to go the route of betamax, ie obscurity, or do we want to get LibreOffice out there and being used? If you provide a good, solid package, and just spread the word about it, it will be used. Tom, what are you doing differently with your posts than you were doing earlier? I use Thunderbird via Gmane, and your messages look just fine. But when I hit Reply, each of your paragraphs turn into a loong sentence that I have to reformat manually in order to write a legible, and properly formatted (following the rules) reply. It didn't used to be this way. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 08/09/2011, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) Interspersing or bottom-posting ensures that every message needs to be scrolled through unless people delete all the stuff that is irrelevant (in their opinion, which 'might not' be the same as the opinion of the person reading). Top posting means that most emails can be read without any scrolling at all. Total nonsense. The fact is the new generation have little regard/respect for the open source community. There has been only one previous post that had the grace to accept the ethos and adapt, instead of being lazy (i.e. for digest mode users, message users+get-10...@global.libreoffice.org) Apparently, increasing numbers are choosing to ignore convention. Such people unable to adjust their own behaviour (e.g. choosing an appropriate program) can probably not be relied upon to encourage others (and use LO); the limit of their encouragement is: look you can send m$ documents for free! Onto another favourite topic: LO promotion. Focus on corporate markets for LO is flawed, there are too many factors to consider. If you complaint is to get LO to be a perfect m$ clone, please send your requests to m$. Instead, the focus should be on individuals and flawless use odf documents. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 08/09/2011, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ... Besides it doesn't matter how strong the argument against top-posting might be. The fact is that it is widely used especially by office workers. Do we want to stop office workers from using LibreOffice? Alienating them would be a good way to get them to stay with whatever else they already use. If those all-important office clerks are going to be dismayed by posting rules, no point telling these people about the advantages of LO; the response will most likely be: but m$ does it this way Betamax was a better format than VHS but it lost the battle for acceptance and now the argument is irrelevant anyway. Perhaps it is similar with bottom posting. It might be better but almost no-one in our target markets Since when did office clerks constitute the LO target market??? use it (note the almost there). Most people would rather use forums anyway as mailing lists are ancient and out-dated. It had to happen; the inevitable complaint about the lack of forums: why are you here when the forums are elsewhere? Unsubscribe instructions below... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi All, On 09/08/2011 04:23 PM, Ken Springer wrote: *My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this discussion, I would be out of here. My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be something important enough to generate that much discussion. But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying to figure things out I'd just leave after awhile. And that would certainly not help the LO cause. :-) I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure a newcomer here today would not be at all impressed with a list that has done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help to many people in the past. I certainly agree with you here. Thanks Ken! Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom? I'm not asking this facetiously. I joined this List probably about 5 months ago and have left a fair number of posts. I never, ever, once, looked at anything at the bottom. I never even thought about looking at anything down there. I would assume that is true for most folks. I did look at the links tonight, but am too far behind to click on them right now. Don -- *** * -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/8/11 6:04 PM, Don C. Myers wrote: Hi All, On 09/08/2011 04:23 PM, Ken Springer wrote: *My Big Concern* here is how are we being perceived by those who come here for help by the amount of time that has been spent on this thread today. I was one of the first responders last night. Never did I dream when I went to bed last night my inbox will be filled with a discussion like this today. People come here for help. People come here to help others. If this was the first day I came to this list, and I saw all of this and my problem being somewhat trivialized by all of this discussion, I would be out of here. My perception if I was a new user, is if a thread is long, it must be something important enough to generate that much discussion. But once I started reading the posts, and found that replies were here and there and spread all over the place, I'd get so frustrated trying to figure things out I'd just leave after awhile. And that would certainly not help the LO cause. :-) I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but quite honestly, I'm sure a newcomer here today would not be at all impressed with a list that has done a tremendous amount of good for LibreOffice and provided great help to many people in the past. I certainly agree with you here. Thanks Ken! You're welcome, Don. Another thing. Does anyone actually read those links at the bottom? I'm not asking this facetiously. I joined this List probably about 5 months ago and have left a fair number of posts. I never, ever, once, looked at anything at the bottom. I never even thought about looking at anything down there. I would assume that is true for most folks. I did look at the links tonight, but am too far behind to click on them right now. The answer is probably not! :-) The funny thing is, as well as ironic, if you go to LO's netiquette site, there is a link to this page: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html . If you take the time to read the article, it specifically says *not* to put information at the bottom/sig area because no one will read it!LMAO! -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/07/2011 05:02 PM, NoOp wrote: ... Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most. Apologies for the last. I forgot that nntp followup doesn't work via gmane.org. So I'll repost on the discuss list will appreciate it if folks on the 'users' list comment there rather than taking up added space on this list. Gary -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/07/2011 08:13 PM, NoOp wrote: On 09/07/2011 05:02 PM, NoOp wrote: ... Added Note: I've set the 'Followup-to' on this message to the discuss list as I think that is more the appropriate location for continued discussion of the issue. But I posted here initially on the users list as this is the list that really needs the guidelines (IMO) the most. Apologies for the last. I forgot that nntp followup doesn't work via gmane.org. So I'll repost on the discuss list will appreciate it if folks on the 'users' list comment there rather than taking up added space on this list. Gary Sorry! I didn't see this until I sent the last e-mail. -- *** * -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/07/2011 07:33 PM, planas wrote: Hi On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 21:29 -0400, Don Myers wrote: ... Hi All, I will respect your wishes about posting at the bottom. I live in the US. I do a lot of work e-mails in my job, and receive a lot of work e-mails. I never receive any e-mails where people reply to me at the bottom. The reply is always at the top. I never understood why Thunderbird had the default to reply at the bottom when Thunderbird came out. It was backwards!! So I have always changed the default on every system I've installed it on. Maybe there are different customs in different countries. Don The real reason is on a list one may be joining the thread late and needs to know what has been discussed. Often business emails are just written conversations between people. Thus top posting works there very well. Snipping is helpful also.. http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.1 :-) -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
