Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Ouch! Who would-a thought my simple apology would start this firestorm? -- Jim Then, would you please consider the pros vs. cons of this list as well as all the users of this list who are seeking help then offering help. Here are more logical steps of top-posting vs. bottom-posting (much has been on this list previously, but ... ... ... ) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 05/02/2014, Felmon Davis dav...@union.edu wrote: That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't learn. I wholly concur that top-posting is a scourge and especially if the post is not trimmed; sometimes I just skip posts since I cannot figure out what in the long tail of to and fro the poster is referring and replying to, esp top-posted one-liners that make no sense. it's just not worth it. True and Tom's post here is irrelevant to the issue why one _should_ bottom-post, trim and put comments in-line but he provides valuable understanding of the forces against the practice. The majority 90% posts are irrelevant... I don't see that we all will come to agreement so that cannot be the point of these discussions. I think we could give them some point if the one side would provide a succinct summary of what it considers good reasons for top-, and the other side provides good reasons for bottom-posting. at least that would or can shed light on the issues and lessen the heat. maybe. You're dreaming; each to their own. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 05/02/2014, Peter West li...@pbw.id.au wrote: On 6/02/2014 5:31 am, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster. . I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted? Not really. The un-deniable fact: the English language convention is to read left-to-right, top-to-bottom. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 06/02/2014, pete nikolic pg.nikol...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 13:37:52 + Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) Such attitude is dying out. Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most users. Maybe it is time these so called modern devices got back into line then and forced bottom posting as standard Agree; for example, would love to get a new twitter client (ttytter is sadly abandoned) with posts in chronological order. Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity. Errr why does bottom posting require Loads of extra work . It's amazing how people do not comprehend how to use the 'end' key... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Then, would you please consider the pros vs. cons of this list as well as all the users of this list who are seeking help then offering help. Here are more logical steps of top-posting vs. bottom-posting (much has been on this list previously, but ... ... ... ) When one reads, he starts at the beginning; when one edits that material, he places the comments on the top of the page - (or along the sides where appropriate) when one writes, he begins at the top; when one is in conversation, all listening knows what's been said, so he merely makes his comment - (if one needs a rehash (as in a courtroom) then the previous comments are read) when reading a book, then placing it down; one does not start at the beginning again when picking it up again. when one is solving any problem, he continues knowing what's gone before - (if one needs to start over, then he returns to the beginning) when picking something from a pile, one reaches for the top one ... ... ... when clearing timber, or rubbish, ... ... ... one clears from the top ... ... ... when conversing with another, one looks toward the top (eyes) not toward the bottom (feet); and when dressing, no one puts their shoes on first. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RW3nDRmu6k] From: Felmon Davis dav...@union.edu Date: Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org And a good job of trimming the post too! I wonder, does top-posting promote sequential reading of the argument? alright; just having fun now. this is losing all point. winter is getting to us. F. On Wed, 5 Feb 2014, anne-ology wrote: Well said, Peter. From: Peter West li...@pbw.id.au Date: Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org On 6/02/2014 5:31 am, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster. . I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted? -- Felmon Davis -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Hi :) Such attitude is dying out. Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most users. Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity. Hopefully this mailing list helps people learn that bottom posting is widely used in Open Source projects and helps them become more familiar with doing so. Other successful gateway projects also use top-posting a lot, for example Firefox, Ubuntu and others. Ones that remain unpopular or have a hard time attracting new people (such as Evolution) insist on bottom posting and sees almost all enquirers leave rather than become involved. It is sad but we kinda have to live with the way things are rather than the way we might prefer them to be. Sadly, Open Source is still a minority amongst new users that we are trying to attract. Happily many of those seem to move on to using other open source projects. Errr, just a minor point but if someone posts something like this off-list then it's a bit rude to throw their post into the lime-light. If you feel you must do so then please remove or hide their name but it's better to just point out to them that their view-point is important even if it might be unpopular. As you have probably seen many on this mailing-list constantly disagree with each other about almost everything and anything. It's something that makes Open Source great imo. We all disagree but that leads to us offering choices and diversity Regards from Tom :) On 4 February 2014 23:22, Peter West li...@pbw.id.au wrote: This sent to me off-list. No further comment required. On 5/02/2014 12:24 am, Anthony Baldwin wrote: On 2/4/2014 2:59 AM, Peter West wrote: Why is, do you think, that people feel the need to apologise on this very list for bottom-posting? Because of my ad-hominem attacks? It must be, because all the bottom-posters on this list are angels of forbearance, while all the top-posters are repeatedly admonishing bottom-posters to please, please, top-post. Fellas, look in the mirror. I will never apologize for proper behavior on mailing lists. I don't waste time correcting those who top-post. As Mark Twain said, Never try to teach a pig to whistle; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. Tony -- Peter West ...and a sword will pierce through your own soul also... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Such attitude is dying out. Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most users. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't learn. Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity. I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. Hopefully this mailing list helps people learn that bottom posting is widely used in Open Source projects and helps them become more familiar with doing so. Other successful gateway projects also use top-posting a lot, for example Firefox, Ubuntu and others. Ones that remain unpopular or have a hard time attracting new people (such as Evolution) insist on bottom posting and sees almost all enquirers leave rather than become involved. It is sad but we kinda have to live with the way things are rather than the way we might prefer them to be. That outlook would mean that we (US) would still be under British rule. Tell it to any country that has overthrown an autocratic ruler. ...snip... There is a special spot in hell for people who overquote *including multiple sigs and footers*. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Wed, 5 Feb 2014, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Such attitude is dying out. Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most users. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't learn. I wholly concur that top-posting is a scourge and especially if the post is not trimmed; sometimes I just skip posts since I cannot figure out what in the long tail of to and fro the poster is referring and replying to, esp top-posted one-liners that make no sense. it's just not worth it. and Tom's post here is irrelevant to the issue why one _should_ bottom-post, trim and put comments in-line but he provides valuable understanding of the forces against the practice. I don't see that we all will come to agreement so that cannot be the point of these discussions. I think we could give them some point if the one side would provide a succinct summary of what it considers good reasons for top-, and the other side provides good reasons for bottom-posting. at least that would or can shed light on the issues and lessen the heat. maybe. people will make their own judgments, some will change their practices, most won't of course but we'll (or may) get beyond tossing salad or shotputs or whatever. we could write a page somewhere and give a link to it whenever the topic a-flames again. (I'm stopping here; maybe this is middle-posting?) F. Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity. I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. Hopefully this mailing list helps people learn that bottom posting is widely used in Open Source projects and helps them become more familiar with doing so. Other successful gateway projects also use top-posting a lot, for example Firefox, Ubuntu and others. Ones that remain unpopular or have a hard time attracting new people (such as Evolution) insist on bottom posting and sees almost all enquirers leave rather than become involved. It is sad but we kinda have to live with the way things are rather than the way we might prefer them to be. That outlook would mean that we (US) would still be under British rule. Tell it to any country that has overthrown an autocratic ruler. ...snip... There is a special spot in hell for people who overquote *including multiple sigs and footers*. -- Felmon Davis It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse-races. -- Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 6/02/2014 5:31 am, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster. . I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted? -- Peter West For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Well said, Peter. From: Peter West li...@pbw.id.au Date: Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org On 6/02/2014 5:31 am, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster. . I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted? -- Peter West For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
And a good job of trimming the post too! I wonder, does top-posting promote sequential reading of the argument? alright; just having fun now. this is losing all point. winter is getting to us. F. On Wed, 5 Feb 2014, anne-ology wrote: Well said, Peter. From: Peter West li...@pbw.id.au Date: Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org On 6/02/2014 5:31 am, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster. . I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted? -- Felmon Davis You will experience a strong urge to do good; but it will pass. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On February 5, 2014 3:40:08 PM PST, Peter West wrote: That simply demonstrates that it is not beneficial to either the writer, nor the reader. On 6/02/2014 5:31 am, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster. . I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted? -- Peter West For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and canno deleted -- -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Thu, Feb 06, 2014 at 09:40:08AM +1000, Peter West wrote: On 6/02/2014 5:31 am, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 01:37:52PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. Trimming is a sensible thing to do, whichever way you post. It's work for the poster, not the reader, and top-posting is a benefit for the reader, not (primarily) the poster. . I really hope you don't mean that trimming is a waste of time. Ever see a reply to a digest message that quoted the whole digest. What fun. But doesn't trimming undermine the argument? How can the discussion be read sequentially when bits of it have been deleted? The idea is to leave the part of the quoted text you're replying to and yes, the discussion can still be read sequentially. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 13:37:52 + Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) Such attitude is dying out. Modern devices almost entirely force people into top-posting and almost all people new to mailing-lists will have no idea about the possibility of doing anything other than top-posting. Some allow users to reconfigure their devices to bottom-post but it's beyond most users. Maybe it is time these so called modern devices got back into line then and forced bottom posting as standard Bottom posting requires a ton of extra work such as trimming and such which office workers really do not have time for. it might have been a better system but we let MS dictate how we do emailing and now we have to live with that or accept increasing unpopularity. Errr why does bottom posting require Loads of extra work . Pete -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Why is, do you think, that people feel the need to apologise on this very list for bottom-posting? Because of my ad-hominem attacks? It must be, because all the bottom-posters on this list are angels of forbearance, while all the top-posters are repeatedly admonishing bottom-posters to please, please, top-post. Fellas, look in the mirror. On 4/02/2014 5:36 pm, pete nikolic wrote: On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 05:33:24 + Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com wrote: At 09:58 04/02/2014 +1000, Peter West wrote: It mystifies me that some ossers become tossers on this particular topic, ... Whatever value your argument might have had, you destroy it by being abusive and using an ad hominem argument, of course. It is thus surprising that you should choose to do this. Brian Barker +1 P -- Peter West ...and a sword will pierce through your own soul also... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014, Brian Barker wrote: At 09:58 04/02/2014 +1000, Peter West wrote: It mystifies me that some ossers become tossers on this particular topic, ... Whatever value your argument might have had, you destroy it by being abusive and using an ad hominem argument, of course. It is thus surprising that you should choose to do this. jeez, these days no one knows what an 'ad hominem' argument is! an 'ad hominem' attempts to prove a point against (or for) X by basing the point on some logically irrelevant aspect of the person claiming X. e.g. you only say we should bottom-post because you are a tosser. (whatever a 'tosser' is, is that a kind of shot putter?) that wasn't the case here as Peter based his point on a different argument (albeit one I find thoroughly unconvincing but not because I'm a shot putter). name-calling does not invalidate an argument else, p implies q, therefore not (p and not-q), you tosser! would be invalid. just saying F. -- Felmon Davis Blutarsky's Axiom: Nothing is impossible for the man who will not listen to reason. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 04/02/2014, anne-ology lagin...@gmail.com wrote: exactly; logic seems to be missing in some folks ;-) Here we go again... From: Peter West li...@pbw.id.au Date: Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Every now and then ossers (open source people) get a bee in their bonnet about something. Top-posting is one of those somethings. The most popular email clients default to top-posting. There's a reason for that. On a list, if you are interested in a particular topic, you will have been following along as it developed, generally pretty quickly. You know what the context is, and you just want to see what the latest contributor is saying. If you need to check the context, you scroll down. So top-posting satisfies the vast majority of use cases, and bottom-posting is a pain in the vast majority. Easy. The majority of humans on this planet have never seen a computer. Thanks for speaking on their behalf. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 11:07:28 -0500 (EST) Felmon Davis dav...@union.edu wrote: (whatever a 'tosser' is, is that a kind of shot putter?) I'm not sure, but if you have a pair, aren't they used for salad? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
This sent to me off-list. No further comment required. On 5/02/2014 12:24 am, Anthony Baldwin wrote: On 2/4/2014 2:59 AM, Peter West wrote: Why is, do you think, that people feel the need to apologise on this very list for bottom-posting? Because of my ad-hominem attacks? It must be, because all the bottom-posters on this list are angels of forbearance, while all the top-posters are repeatedly admonishing bottom-posters to please, please, top-post. Fellas, look in the mirror. I will never apologize for proper behavior on mailing lists. I don't waste time correcting those who top-post. As Mark Twain said, Never try to teach a pig to whistle; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. Tony -- Peter West ...and a sword will pierce through your own soul also... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Hi James, James E Lang wrote on 2014-01-31 21:12: I also think most mailing lists encourage replies to the list by inserting a Reply-To header designating the list as the preferred reply address. This lets all on the list to learn from most responses. It also guides people on the list regarding which queries still need a response. we had quite a large discussion on that topic a while ago, with advantages and disadvantages for both settings (so called reply-to mangling). We have in the end agreed to use the setting as it is now. Sorry if that causes inconveniences for you, but there's close to little we can do to make everyone happy. Florian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Hi :) re: top vs bottom posting Many people using this mailing list are likely to be unfamiliar with various notions that are in common usage on other mailing lists. Hopefully this mailing list responds to people in ways they are familiar with but at the same time prepares them for other possibilities. Many office workers have no idea that bottom posting sometimes happens until after they have been (possibly) rudely told off on some other mailing list. On this list people use all 3 methods so that new users become aware that top-posters are often responding to something that was bottom posted. So we do it gently. Oddly it seems that most other mailing lists for LibreOffice seem to use top-posting almost exclusively whereas many other Open Source projects bottom-post. LibreOffice is one of the gateway projects into the world of Open Source so it makes sense to guide people gently. re: Reply to all Again it's something that almost all new users are unlikely to have used before. Quite a few of us keep grumbling about it but in many cases that is more about making people aware of something that other mailing-lists take for granted. It makes people more comfortable about admitting to making mistakes when they realise that many others do too, especially when it's obviously quite sophisticated users that also make the same blunder. Some of us keep making the same blunder or get annoyed by others doing things differently. Hopefully most of us have learned to be a bit more forgiving of ourselves and of others. Regards from Tom :) On 3 February 2014 13:41, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi James, James E Lang wrote on 2014-01-31 21:12: I also think most mailing lists encourage replies to the list by inserting a Reply-To header designating the list as the preferred reply address. This lets all on the list to learn from most responses. It also guides people on the list regarding which queries still need a response. we had quite a large discussion on that topic a while ago, with advantages and disadvantages for both settings (so called reply-to mangling). We have in the end agreed to use the setting as it is now. Sorry if that causes inconveniences for you, but there's close to little we can do to make everyone happy. Florian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Every now and then ossers (open source people) get a bee in their bonnet about something. Top-posting is one of those somethings. The most popular email clients default to top-posting. There's a reason for that. On a list, if you are interested in a particular topic, you will have been following along as it developed, generally pretty quickly. You know what the context is, and you just want to see what the latest contributor is saying. If you need to check the context, you scroll down. So top-posting satisfies the vast majority of use cases, and bottom-posting is a pain in the vast majority. Easy. It mystifies me that some ossers become tossers on this particular topic, and start to denigrate perfectly sensible users for doing the simple an sensible thing and top-posting. On 4/02/2014 2:30 am, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) re: top vs bottom posting Many people using this mailing list are likely to be unfamiliar with various notions that are in common usage on other mailing lists. Hopefully this mailing list responds to people in ways they are familiar with but at the same time prepares them for other possibilities. Many office workers have no idea that bottom posting sometimes happens until after they have been (possibly) rudely told off on some other mailing list. On this list people use all 3 methods so that new users become aware that top-posters are often responding to something that was bottom posted. So we do it gently. Oddly it seems that most other mailing lists for LibreOffice seem to use top-posting almost exclusively whereas many other Open Source projects bottom-post. LibreOffice is one of the gateway projects into the world of Open Source so it makes sense to guide people gently. -- Peter West ...and a sword will pierce through your own soul also... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
exactly; logic seems to be missing in some folks ;-) From: Peter West li...@pbw.id.au Date: Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Every now and then ossers (open source people) get a bee in their bonnet about something. Top-posting is one of those somethings. The most popular email clients default to top-posting. There's a reason for that. On a list, if you are interested in a particular topic, you will have been following along as it developed, generally pretty quickly. You know what the context is, and you just want to see what the latest contributor is saying. If you need to check the context, you scroll down. So top-posting satisfies the vast majority of use cases, and bottom-posting is a pain in the vast majority. Easy. It mystifies me that some ossers become tossers on this particular topic, and start to denigrate perfectly sensible users for doing the simple an sensible thing and top-posting. On 4/02/2014 2:30 am, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) re: top vs bottom posting Many people using this mailing list are likely to be unfamiliar with various notions that are in common usage on other mailing lists. Hopefully this mailing list responds to people in ways they are familiar with but at the same time prepares them for other possibilities. Many office workers have no idea that bottom posting sometimes happens until after they have been (possibly) rudely told off on some other mailing list. On this list people use all 3 methods so that new users become aware that top-posters are often responding to something that was bottom posted. So we do it gently. Oddly it seems that most other mailing lists for LibreOffice seem to use top-posting almost exclusively whereas many other Open Source projects bottom-post. LibreOffice is one of the gateway projects into the world of Open Source so it makes sense to guide people gently. -- Peter West ...and a sword will pierce through your own soul also... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
At 09:58 04/02/2014 +1000, Peter West wrote: It mystifies me that some ossers become tossers on this particular topic, ... Whatever value your argument might have had, you destroy it by being abusive and using an ad hominem argument, of course. It is thus surprising that you should choose to do this. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 05:33:24 + Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com wrote: At 09:58 04/02/2014 +1000, Peter West wrote: It mystifies me that some ossers become tossers on this particular topic, ... Whatever value your argument might have had, you destroy it by being abusive and using an ad hominem argument, of course. It is thus surprising that you should choose to do this. Brian Barker +1 P -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
This is top posted. I apologize but it seems appropriate in this case. A blind copy (to prevent Reply All from including the address) of this is also going to the list's postmaster. I'm a 75 year youngster. Over the last few months I've taken to reading and responding to eMail via K-9 Mail on my Android phone. Reacting to a message involves tapping an arrow icon and selecting one of four items from a menu that appears. Here are the four menu items and their default behavior ON THIS LIST. • Reply — A reply style message gets addressed to the one who posted the message to which I am replying. My signature is above the quoted text. • Reply all — A reply style message gets addressed to every Tom, Dick, and Harry (including the list) found in the addressing headers of the message to which I am replying. My signature is above the quoted text. • Forward — A forward style message without any addressees is created. I don't recall where my signature gets placed. • Share — A list of applications is offered which includes the installed eMail apps. If I select K-9 Mail a reply style message is generated with only the list addressed and with my signature at the bottom. I think most (all?) eMail clients have Reply, Reply All, and Forward functionality. I also think most mailing lists encourage replies to the list by inserting a Reply-To header designating the list as the preferred reply address. This lets all on the list to learn from most responses. It also guides people on the list regarding which queries still need a response. When I started using eMail (using Pegasus Mail) over a dozen years ago it was considered to be rude to arbitrarily use Reply All. One reason is that using it in reply to a rumor that was spewed to a zillion addresses will also spew the reply a zillion ways. As a result my reflex action is to use the simple Reply action. Seeing others say they have inadvertently sent replies off list tells me that this issue is not unique to me. On 01/28/2014 06:33 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: And if you use Thunderbird and read the list through gmane you will see a followup button that replies only to the list. The reply button replies to the sender. Regards, Jim FWIW, I've done some searching of my email since my earlier post. It seems that I get the Reply All button for lists that are Yahoo! groups, and Reply List for lists that use real list servers. Dave On 1/28/2014 16:23, Peter West wrote: I've just switched to Thunderbird from Apple Mail, and the Reply List button is very handy indeed. There is a minority of lists that exhibit the same behaviour as this one with replies. The fact that it is a minority makes it all the more likely that I will send replies to the wrong address - the OP. P.S. Apple has had ongoing problems with Mail in Mavericks, and I suspect they have decided to phone home about everyone you add to the address list of an email. Using Contacts groups became painfully slow. On 29/01/2014 9:59 am, Dave Liesse wrote: Virgil, I don't think it's just the list. The mail client must have something to do with it, as well; I use Thunderbird and have a Reply List option on this list, while on some others I do and some I don't. Dave -- Jim -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Brad wrote: Unfortunately, at least one MUA (guess which one) uses Reply All to mean Reply List. This simply confuses matters. I'm assuming you're meaning MS. Actually, with my MS Windows Live Mail interface, Reply All means just that; it replies to everyone in the original message, whether individual or list (which is why Brad will get two copies of this message). There's nothing confusing about that. The problem, if that is the right way to put it, is that it has no Reply List option (at least none that I can see.) The frustration is that, if I want to reply only to the list, I have to hit Reply All and then delete all the addresses that aren't the list. Now, is that the fault of MS Live Mail, or the way the list was set up? As has been repeatedly reported by others, this is the *only* list (at least that I use) that behaves this way. I'm more inclined to blame the list than MS's email software. I'm not a huge fan of MS, but I'm also not going to blame them for problems they didn't create. Virgil -Original Message- From: Brad Rogers Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 11:23 AM To: Libre Office ML Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:20:17 -0800 Girvin Herr girvin.h...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Hello Girvin, If reply all is not used, the reply goes only to the poster, not the Reply All /should/ send to the list *and* anybody else listed in the To and From headers. Reply Sender and Reply List do what they say. Unfortunately, at least one MUA (guess which one) uses Reply All to mean Reply List. This simply confuses matters. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent If you ain't sticking your knives in me, you will be eventually Monsoon - Robbie Williams -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Virgil, I don't think it's just the list. The mail client must have something to do with it, as well; I use Thunderbird and have a Reply List option on this list, while on some others I do and some I don't. Dave On 1/28/2014 14:47, Virgil Arrington wrote: Brad wrote: Unfortunately, at least one MUA (guess which one) uses Reply All to mean Reply List. This simply confuses matters. I'm assuming you're meaning MS. Actually, with my MS Windows Live Mail interface, Reply All means just that; it replies to everyone in the original message, whether individual or list (which is why Brad will get two copies of this message). There's nothing confusing about that. The problem, if that is the right way to put it, is that it has no Reply List option (at least none that I can see.) The frustration is that, if I want to reply only to the list, I have to hit Reply All and then delete all the addresses that aren't the list. Now, is that the fault of MS Live Mail, or the way the list was set up? As has been repeatedly reported by others, this is the *only* list (at least that I use) that behaves this way. I'm more inclined to blame the list than MS's email software. I'm not a huge fan of MS, but I'm also not going to blame them for problems they didn't create. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
I've just switched to Thunderbird from Apple Mail, and the Reply List button is very handy indeed. There is a minority of lists that exhibit the same behaviour as this one with replies. The fact that it is a minority makes it all the more likely that I will send replies to the wrong address - the OP. P.S. Apple has had ongoing problems with Mail in Mavericks, and I suspect they have decided to phone home about everyone you add to the address list of an email. Using Contacts groups became painfully slow. On 29/01/2014 9:59 am, Dave Liesse wrote: Virgil, I don't think it's just the list. The mail client must have something to do with it, as well; I use Thunderbird and have a Reply List option on this list, while on some others I do and some I don't. Dave -- Peter West ...for whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted . -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
FWIW, I've done some searching of my email since my earlier post. It seems that I get the Reply All button for lists that are Yahoo! groups, and Reply List for lists that use real list servers. Dave On 1/28/2014 16:23, Peter West wrote: I've just switched to Thunderbird from Apple Mail, and the Reply List button is very handy indeed. There is a minority of lists that exhibit the same behaviour as this one with replies. The fact that it is a minority makes it all the more likely that I will send replies to the wrong address - the OP. P.S. Apple has had ongoing problems with Mail in Mavericks, and I suspect they have decided to phone home about everyone you add to the address list of an email. Using Contacts groups became painfully slow. On 29/01/2014 9:59 am, Dave Liesse wrote: Virgil, I don't think it's just the list. The mail client must have something to do with it, as well; I use Thunderbird and have a Reply List option on this list, while on some others I do and some I don't. Dave -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 01/28/2014 06:33 PM, Dave Liesse wrote: And if you use Thunderbird and read the list through gmane you will see a followup button that replies only to the list. The reply button replies to the sender. Regards, Jim FWIW, I've done some searching of my email since my earlier post. It seems that I get the Reply All button for lists that are Yahoo! groups, and Reply List for lists that use real list servers. Dave On 1/28/2014 16:23, Peter West wrote: I've just switched to Thunderbird from Apple Mail, and the Reply List button is very handy indeed. There is a minority of lists that exhibit the same behaviour as this one with replies. The fact that it is a minority makes it all the more likely that I will send replies to the wrong address - the OP. P.S. Apple has had ongoing problems with Mail in Mavericks, and I suspect they have decided to phone home about everyone you add to the address list of an email. Using Contacts groups became painfully slow. On 29/01/2014 9:59 am, Dave Liesse wrote: Virgil, I don't think it's just the list. The mail client must have something to do with it, as well; I use Thunderbird and have a Reply List option on this list, while on some others I do and some I don't. Dave -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 01/26/2014 02:40 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Snip James Lang went back to the original question and like many people in another thread suggested the drop in traffic might be something to do with Reply taking messages off-list. Sadly bottom-posting meant his message got hidden under the signatures so people probably thought it was just an accidental empty email Is this a result of having to reply all to get the answer automatically sent to the list? I have been led to believe that reply all should be used sparingly and that its indiscriminate use is rude. Jim I thought when the list was changed a few years ago to make it easier for the devs, IIRC, reply all was the only way to reply to the list. If reply all is not used, the reply goes only to the poster, not the list. Has it changed again? I am still using reply all, unless I want a private reply. It might help if people could write to the postmaster of this mailing list explaining why they think it's a bad idea for this list to operate the way it does. Apparently on other lists people wrote in to grumble that it wasn't set-up this way previously. Grumbling to the mailing-list itself wont get anywhere because none of us can influence policy. Regards from Tom :) Here we go again. We (I) tried this in the past and was hit with the results of a survey that the majority liked the way it is. Remember, Tom? Has something changed? It is interesting that this list is still the only list I know of that works this way. Girvin Herr Snip -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 14:07:02 -0600 anne-ology lagin...@gmail.com wrote: as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is - and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook, Google, et.al. because I too don't want all the additional spam ... or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane. I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs ;-) and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date. BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook or twittering ... ... ... (I happen to enjoy watching, listening, to the birds, yet they stay in the yard) +1 Pete -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
I looked at ASKLO, but the requirement to sign up for Twitter I found off putting. Why cannot I just join ASK? Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/low-traffic-lately-tp4093796p4093989.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 1/25/2014 3:07 PM, anne-ology wrote: as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is - It's http://ask.libreoffice.org I just figured that out, myself (searched duckduckgo for AskLO LibreOffice.) It looks like a simple Q/A forum. Doesn't look like FB or G+ or anything that stupid. It IS disturbing that there seems to be no means of participating without using (and signing in with) some 3rd party service, and almost all those listed are corporate fascist networks, like Google, Facebook, Yahoo!, AOL, Twitter, etc. they do offer sign-in with wordpress or livejournal, which are both blogging communities built on FLOSS. That's about as good as it gets. Oh, or an OpenID. But, if you don't have an account with any of these other services, seems you're left out. ./tony -- http://www.baldwinlinguas.com translations, localization, multilingual web development EN, ES, FR, PT 203-759-8352 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 01/25/2014 05:46 PM, Girvin Herr wrote: +1 I have been working with general purpose computers since the mid 70s and made a pretty good career out of it until I retired 10 years ago. I don't do facebook because it violates my computer security rules and I strongly disagree with facebook's data-mining business model. In my view, the reason email, BBs, and forums like this one seem to be out of favor is that general purpose computers are becoming dinosaurs in favor of mainstream ipads and smart phones. Last year I upgraded my 10-year-old desktop computer and discovered new components are becoming difficult to find. This may be the last time I can upgrade it, since I suspect in 10 years, the desktop computer will not be available. That gives me a warm fuzzy, but then in 10 years I may not care. I keep hearing this, and it is quite true that many people, your average consumer whatever, are using their smartphones and tablets more to access internet stuff. But, there's a whole lot of things I do with a computer that are simply not practically or ergonomically appropriate for a tablet or phone. I'm certainly not going to hack on a phone, or work on a tablet. I am a professional translator, hobby web/software developer. I type thousands of words/day for my work, and need a real keyboard, not some 5inch touchpad on a phone. I mean, are people going to write their thesis on a tablet? Write a novel on a phone? And that's just writing stuff...what about all the complex mathematical stuff done in the sciences... I don't think astronomers are going to be crunching Hubble data on an iPhone. The way I see it, if someone only allows responses from me via facebook and/or twitter, then they don't get a response, which effectively self-limits their help. With this, I wholeheartedly agree. I do not use FB, G+, Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram, SnapChat, WhatsApp, or any other corporate fascist owned social network (corporate feedlot). I DO use forums, friendica, redmatrix, libertree, pumpio, statusnet, and other free/open source, decentralized, federated networking platforms, however. No borrowed cloud storage, either. I will host and control my own data, thank you. These corporate fascists want to own all your data, not only to have full access to it, but also so you are dependent upon them. We're all smart enough to see the evils in vendor lock-in, monopolies, and corporate manipulation, or we wouldn't be using LibreOffice; we'd be using MSOrifice. So why would we be on Facebook? We need fewer corporate fascist monopolies, more freedom and self-determination. but this is all largely OT...sorry Tony -- http://www.baldwinlinguas.com translations, localization, multilingual web development EN, ES, FR, PT -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Hi :) I was reading somewhere (or perhaps in a film) that Facebook considers itself to have reached market saturation once 55% of the people in a country/university/other-sample are using it. Continued investment in marketing brings diminishing returns so they cut their advertising budget there (just enough to keep it ticking over) and increase their advertising budget elsewhere. Anyway, this thread wasn't meant to be about bashing social media. Obviously quite a LOT of us on this list feel much the same way otherwise we would probably have moved over by now. A lot of people DO like social media so i think it's good that TDF has given them a way of getting help using that sort of method. Like most things i'd be surprised if it was perfectly set-up first time but hopefully there is some way of reporting problems or suggesting new features and maybe people might see some of those get resolved. James Lang went back to the original question and like many people in another thread suggested the drop in traffic might be something to do with Reply taking messages off-list. Sadly bottom-posting meant his message got hidden under the signatures so people probably thought it was just an accidental empty email Is this a result of having to reply all to get the answer automatically sent to the list? I have been led to believe that reply all should be used sparingly and that its indiscriminate use is rude. Jim It might help if people could write to the postmaster of this mailing list explaining why they think it's a bad idea for this list to operate the way it does. Apparently on other lists people wrote in to grumble that it wasn't set-up this way previously. Grumbling to the mailing-list itself wont get anywhere because none of us can influence policy. Regards from Tom :) On 26 January 2014 08:56, pete nikolic pg.nikol...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 14:07:02 -0600 anne-ology lagin...@gmail.com wrote: as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is - and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook, Google, et.al. because I too don't want all the additional spam ... or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane. I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs ;-) and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date. BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook or twittering ... ... ... (I happen to enjoy watching, listening, to the birds, yet they stay in the yard) +1 Pete -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
CVAlkan wrote I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, ... ... all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts This thread has become hijacked by several comments about requiring a Facebook or Twitter or social media account to use the AskLO site. I am responding to this comment simply because it is the first, but am not wanting to single anyone out. Hopefully I can provide some useful information. There are threads on AskLO about various aspects of this very issue: http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/21348/can-the-interface-for-registering-at-asklo-be-improved/ http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/11140/how-can-we-encourage-more-people-to-sign-in-to-the-ask-site/ http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/24838/registration-at-libo-after-opendid-stops/ To be clear, what is required to sign in to AskLO is an OpenID verified domain. This can be any such verified site, including a personal site if anyone cares to setup OpenID verification for themselves (I have not tested this, and comment in one of the listed threads that if this does not work a bug needs to be raised). The point here is that if anyone wants to take control of their own verification, they are free to do so. There are a *lot* of OpenID providers. Click the OpenID badge and enter the URL of a provider. All the major social media service providers use this type of verification and this is expected. LO as a project will naturally attempt to make use of such types of media (e.g., by tweeting and facebooking) as that is where a lot of people are these days. It is however unlikely that email will completely die, but it now has competing channels it never had in years past. The web is diversifying and fragmenting as it grows and this too is completely natural. The hope is that LO itself will become an OpenID provider so that a single LO account will allow sign-in to all the OpenID-supported services that LO makes use of (nabble, gerrit, AskBot, wiki, etc.) and will enhance those that do not currently support OpenID to do so e.g., bugzilla. LO is a big project with a lot of different services and sites so this make sense IMO. There is also the alternate forum (http://en.libreofficeforum.org/forum/) that has a local registration. Disclosure: I am a moderator there. Best wishes, Owen. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/low-traffic-lately-tp4093796p4094013.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Anthony Baldwin has written on 1/26/2014 12:01 AM: I keep hearing this, and it is quite true that many people, your average consumer whatever, are using their smartphones and tablets more to access internet stuff. But, there's a whole lot of things I do with a computer that are simply not practically or ergonomically appropriate for a tablet or phone. I'm certainly not going to hack on a phone, or work on a tablet. I am a professional translator, hobby web/software developer. I type thousands of words/day for my work, and need a real keyboard, not some 5inch touchpad on a phone. Are you not aware that, by using an OTG cable, you can attach a full-size USB keyboard to a phone or tablet? I mean, are people going to write their thesis on a tablet? Could be. And that's just writing stuff...what about all the complex mathematical stuff done in the sciences... I don't think astronomers are going to be crunching Hubble data on an iPhone. The iPhone is not the be-all and end-all of personal computing devices. Will we always need supercomputers? Sure. I DO use forums, friendica, redmatrix, libertree, pumpio, statusnet, and other free/open source, decentralized, federated networking platforms, however. No borrowed cloud storage, either. I will host and control my own data, thank you. Will you take it with you you go? (Younger) People want access to their data they are. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On 1/26/2014 9:40 AM, Pikov Andropov wrote: Anthony Baldwin has written on 1/26/2014 12:01 AM: No borrowed cloud storage, either. I will host and control my own data, thank you. Will you take it with you you go? (Younger) People want access to their data they are. I have a server in my home office, and anything I may need remote access to, I can store there, or, of course, I can access my main desktop, as well, over ssh (yes, even from my android phone). Of course, not everybody has a server running in their house. Tony -- http://www.baldwinlinguas.com translations, localization, multilingual web development EN, ES, FR, PT 203-759-8352 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
Hi Tom: Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor of AskLO. Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for dinner. Sorry - I'll go away now. Frank -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/low-traffic-lately-tp4093796p4093937.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is - and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook, Google, et.al. because I too don't want all the additional spam ... or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane. I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs ;-) and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date. BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook or twittering ... ... ... (I happen to enjoy watching, listening, to the birds, yet they stay in the yard) From: CVAlkan fobe...@enteract.com Date: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 1:29 PM Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Hi Tom: Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor of AskLO. Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for dinner. Sorry - I'll go away now. Frank -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
CVAlkan wrote: Hi Tom: Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor of AskLO. Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for dinner. Sorry - I'll go away now. Frank Hi Frank, For some unexplained reason The Document Foundation board chose to use a modified edition of the Askbot software [1] which, unlike Askbot's own forum [2], does not allow you to set up a local log-in account. If you dare suggest that you do not want to have a third party social media account, you run the risk of at least one TDF board member calling you a paranoid freak [3]. I was working with a small (only 40-50 seat) client company on a proposal for migrating to LibreOffice. Mistakenly, in the process of showing them the software's features, I demonstrated the new Help - Send Feedback Ask a question option, which ultimately leads to the AskLibO site. The client asked me why they or their staff would be required to have a third party social media account to use that service. Unlike some TDF board members, I do not make it a practice to tell my clients that they need to get a life and get over their stupid paranoia. Dave [1] https://askbot.com/ [2] http://askbot.org/en/account/signin/?next=/en/ [3] http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/AskLibO-Access-td4091511.html -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
+1 I have been working with general purpose computers since the mid 70s and made a pretty good career out of it until I retired 10 years ago. I don't do facebook because it violates my computer security rules and I strongly disagree with facebook's data-mining business model. In my view, the reason email, BBs, and forums like this one seem to be out of favor is that general purpose computers are becoming dinosaurs in favor of mainstream ipads and smart phones. Last year I upgraded my 10-year-old desktop computer and discovered new components are becoming difficult to find. This may be the last time I can upgrade it, since I suspect in 10 years, the desktop computer will not be available. That gives me a warm fuzzy, but then in 10 years I may not care. The way I see it, if someone only allows responses from me via facebook and/or twitter, then they don't get a response, which effectively self-limits their help. Girvin Herr On 01/25/2014 12:07 PM, anne-ology wrote: as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is - and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook, Google, et.al. because I too don't want all the additional spam ... or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane. I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs ;-) and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date. BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook or twittering ... ... ... (I happen to enjoy watching, listening, to the birds, yet they stay in the yard) From: CVAlkan fobe...@enteract.com Date: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 1:29 PM Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately? To: users@global.libreoffice.org Hi Tom: Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor of AskLO. Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for dinner. Sorry - I'll go away now. Frank -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:29:58 AM CVAlkan wrote: Hi Tom: Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor of AskLO. Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for dinner. Sorry - I'll go away now. Frank -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/low-traffic-lately-tp4093796p409 3937.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. I also will not use social media services. They are a complete security rise. Ask Facebook how many users information was stolen recently? I will use a mailing list or forum. -- openSUSE 13.1(Linux 3.11.6-4-desktop x86_64| Intel(R) Quad Core(TM) i5-4440 CPU @ 3.10GHz|8GB DDR3| GeForce 8400GS (NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-331.38)|KDE 4.12.1 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
