Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am surprised to see no one reply your message. For the thread, here's what I have to say. The original poster shared some frank and sincere experience and feeling. However, it lacks sorely the technicality of the comparison. For example, no links to the video demo the guy was talking about, no point about each feature, and why he thinks one is better than another. I didn't look at the video, but scan through the tutorial, I was surprised to find out that Netbeans and Creator would do most of the things it shows. What tool did the author used? What kind of app did he develop (I know he mention J2EE, but that's a large spectrum). From playing with the previous version of the studio (2003 or something), looking at many of the tutorial today on the site, I don't see much advantage. For the language itself. I have seen discussion about delegate, and other stuff and I don't see a clear advantage. I am surprise the thread head thinks it is. I programed in Swing and the event model seems to fine for me. It's never was a problem for me. The IDE needs better GUI development support, but not the language. Layout also is a bit problem, but 10 times better than the old VB days. With Netbeans 5 and Matisse, I think the thread head should check it out and compares a bit better. I see a lot of praise from the thread head, but I just don't see the how that is true. George Sexton wrote: I've been developing with Microsoft Products for 15 year. At one point I was an MVP, and I was on the original MVP program steering committee. Here's what I can tell you about MS product development. A lot of my comments are going to be about FoxPro, which I used most, but the same issues exist with other tools. Corporate strategy drives tool development, not developer desires. Several years ago, with FoxPro, OLE forms was the big thing. So, the bulk of the development effort went into creating the ability to run FoxPro forms as OLE controls in a browser. None of the developers wanted it. They wanted an improved report writer and menu system. No one that I know ever used this capability. There are ALWAYS a lot of unexpected problems when using MS tools. Take for example, memo fields and ADO. You basically only get one shot to read a memo field from an ADO result set. Once you access it, its consumed and you can't get the value again. There's also a problem in ADO if you don't make sure that memo fields are the last elements in a select list. In FoxPro, if you assign a string longer than 200 characters to a caption, the caption isn't displayed at all. Its not truncated, and it doesn't throw an error, it just doesn't display. You're just sitting there, scratching your head wonder why the heck it isn't working. If you create a view in FoxPro that is select * from table, and someone modifies the base table, you'll get an error opening the remote view, and you have to drop the view and re-add it. Don't even get me started on Windows Installer technology. Bugs RARELY get fixed. There's a problem in the Excel ODBC driver. If the first 6-8 rows are digits, the driver assumes the column type is numeric and will throw an error if later rows have characters. There's supposed to be an override feature to set the type, but it doesn't work either. Another example is THEAD/TBODY tags. There is a KB article for IE 4.0 (Q190278) saying that failure to support THEAD/TBODY tags for printing was a defect (although the revised KB article now says this is by design). This was never fixed in IE 4.0, 5.0, 5.5, or 6.0. I don't have IE 7.0 so I can't say if they have added support for it or not. There's a real corporate culture that says customers are fools, and these quirks don't have to be repaired. The problem is that a small bug in a development tool can easily consume a day of developer time. Tool strategy churn is another problem. Their development tool focus changes every two years. Did I mention tool strategy exists to sell servers (SQL, Windows, etc)? Right when developers become comfortable with a technology, the focus is changed. The end result is that companies end up with a series of core applications, each developed using a different toolset, methodology, or mindset. Developers never become proficient at a tool, and consequently quality of applications just sucks. These things make it almost impossible to accurately fix bid a project. You just never know when some obscure bug reported 5 years ago is going to come out and bite you. From my experience, I've had perhaps 1/10th of the development tool problems with Java compared to using MS tools. I can accurately cost estimate Java projects, and do them profitably. I know that I probably am not going to run into any bugs (where a large project will hit at least 5-10 in the MS world). So, good luck. I hope you're really happy. But, I think that when you have the experience and the career span that I do you'll start
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Hi Chuck See this link from Sun http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/glossary.html#120385 I know Sun says typically a distributed system but of course most of the J2EE are distributed. 2006/1/30, Caldarale, Charles R [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From: Hans Sowa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] I want to mentioned that it is not important which API is used from JAVA to say that your application is a J2EE application or not. The only two thinks which count are 1) it is written in java (of course) and 2) it is a distributed application. That doesn't jibe with any use of the term distributable that I'm familiar with; perhaps you're using it in an unusual sense? J2EE is a large defined set of APIs and behaviors, so I think it is, in fact, the use of those APIs that determines whether or not a given application is J2EE-based or not. The question is somewhat moot, since it's difficult not to use J2EE in some fashion in anything but trivial applications. - Chuck THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- mfg Hans Sowa mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Hello, I think will have to make amends for my post where I recommended to consider steering clear of J2EE. Thus deepening the off-topicness. Jess Holle said it: This affects things ranging from surveys of developers asking Which of the following do you use? (a) J2EE, (b) .NET, ... where developers may say no, I don't use J2EE as I don't use EJBs to a silly stigma against things like Hibernate (...) I have indeed fallen into the trap of equating J2EE and EJB. Sorry about that. But I must somewhat disagree with Wade Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] when he says: J2EE is an API set to support some specifications and strongly with Leon rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hibernate and spring are heavily J2EE based Going by the large bookshelf on my left, wherefrom I grab the olde book from O'Reilly, Java Enterprise In A Nutshell, I read: : Before we go any further, let's be clear. The term 'enterprise computing' : is simply a synonym for distributed computing: computation done by groups of : programs interacting over a network. Oops, let's jump directly to the reference then! (Note: For me at least, 'enterprise computing' is a synonym for reliable, stable applications possibly running on a single central server for which the APIs used and exported are well known, for which you can find support and for which you can do maintenance. Or put another way: I don't care about the 'distributed' part until I need it. End of Note.) Skipping the adjectives, a J2EE-compliant platform is a container environment that presents the following APIs, called the Java Enterprise APIs, to client code: - JDBC 2.0: Working with databases (now in J2SE) - RMI: Remote method Invocation (Java RMI + RMI/IIOP, Java RMI is now in J2SE) - Java IDL: CORBA distributed objects - JNDI: Accessing Naming and Directory Services, generally through LDAP (now in J2SE I think) - EJB: Enterprise JavaBeans - Servlets: Everyone knows what that is. Have a Tomcat. - JMS: Enterprise Messaging. - JTA: Managing Distributed Transactions. plus (according to http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/api/index.html) - JavaMail: Mail sending and Mail processing API (can be downloaded separately) - JMX: Instrumentation and Management interfaces (can be downloaded separately) - XML: DOM and SAX and XSLT and stuff (can be downloaded separately) - XML-RPC: The SOAP way of doing RMI You can chuck the J2EE container environment and mix-and-match open or closed implementations of the above APIs. Then you can layer higher-level stuff on top of the above: JDO, Hibernate, iBATIS, JSP/Struts, Java Tuple Spaces. Whatever. But using the APIs does not mean that you are 'J2EE based'. It just means that you use an API that has been included in the J2EE specification. Wade again: I believe what we see more of is the marketing hype and FUD confuses the use cases for many people and recruiters and human resource departments at organizations make it even more confusing for some others by the fact they don't know what their organization needs and all they know is what is on paper and then they try to talk about things like they know what they are talking about. Couldn't agree more. Myself, I have to stop and ask Do I REALLY need this API? Would it make my life easier or would it make it more difficult? What about about using 'simple solution X' here? And given the time constraints, 'simple solution X' it often is. Jess Holle again: The fact is that EJBs are just the most complex piece of J2EE. App server vendors love to get you all wrapped up in them because unlike most everything else in J2EE you need a full blown app server to do them (...) This paragraph made me think of this article by Neil_Ward Dutton http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2005/12/16/service_component_architecture/: Im happy to admit that theres long been a conspiracy theorist living in my brain, telling me that J2EE was an attempt by the established players (IBM, BEA and Oracle, aided by Sun) to lock small vendors out from the Java application server market opportunity. For most of the time the primary evidence to support my feverish imaginings was the fact that certifying products to J2EE has always been expensive ? and it has become more expensive as the specification has become more complicated. Small vendors had real trouble getting the resources together to play that game. Now, though, Im starting to think that the increasingly audible developer discontent with J2EE adds fuel to my fire. It is entirely possible that J2EE was developed altruistically by the folks involved in the process. However good the original intention was, though, the large vendors sales and marketing teams have certainly been happy to associate complete J2EE compliance with the ability to deal with real-world requirements in customers minds. Right, my bus leaves in 2 minutes... Best regards, -- David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Leon Rosenberg wrote: | On 1/29/06, David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have | heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily | without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: | | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ | | | Stay clear of J2EE? Not really possible, especially with your book | recommendation, hibernate and spring are heavily J2EE based. Or did | you mean EJB? How are they J2EE based? Regards, Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
On 1/30/06, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Leon Rosenberg wrote: | On 1/29/06, David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have | heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily | without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: | | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ | | | Stay clear of J2EE? Not really possible, especially with your book | recommendation, hibernate and spring are heavily J2EE based. Or did | you mean EJB? How are they J2EE based? JDBC is part of J2EE. JTA is part of J2EE. Servlets are part of J2EE. And spring states itself as: Welcome to the home of the Spring Framework. As the leading full-stack Java/J2EE application framework, Spring delivers significant benefits for many projects, reducing development effort and costs while improving test coverage and quality. Regards, Endre. Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Leon Rosenberg wrote: On 1/30/06, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Leon Rosenberg wrote: | On 1/29/06, David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have | heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily | without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: | | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ | | | Stay clear of J2EE? Not really possible, especially with your book | recommendation, hibernate and spring are heavily J2EE based. Or did | you mean EJB? How are they J2EE based? JDBC is part of J2EE. JTA is part of J2EE. Servlets are part of J2EE. And spring states itself as: Welcome to the home of the Spring Framework. As the leading full-stack Java/J2EE application framework, Spring delivers significant benefits for many projects, reducing development effort and costs while improving test coverage and quality. Some app server marketeers would have you believe that J2EE == EJB and Sun has not been too vocal about correcting this. The fact is that EJBs are just the most complex piece of J2EE. App server vendors love to get you all wrapped up in them because unlike most everything else in J2EE you need a full blown app server to do them, so you have to choose one of them once you place EJBs in your solution. Given that they're the most complex, they're also a piece that some, if not many, folk truly don't need -- and a piece that has taken until J2EE 5 to get right (e.g. usable) in the spec (assuming it is finally right there). -- Jess Holle - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Hibernate is not J2EE based. It just so happens it provides a EJB-free solution to a servlet container environment. Hibernate does not require J2EE. Tim -Original Message- From: Leon Rosenberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:04 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] On 1/30/06, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Leon Rosenberg wrote: | On 1/29/06, David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I | have heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far | worked happily without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: | | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ | | | Stay clear of J2EE? Not really possible, especially with your book | recommendation, hibernate and spring are heavily J2EE based. Or did | you mean EJB? How are they J2EE based? JDBC is part of J2EE. JTA is part of J2EE. Servlets are part of J2EE. And spring states itself as: Welcome to the home of the Spring Framework. As the leading full-stack Java/J2EE application framework, Spring delivers significant benefits for many projects, reducing development effort and costs while improving test coverage and quality. Regards, Endre. Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
On Mon, 2006-01-30 at 07:32 -0600, Jess Holle wrote: Leon Rosenberg wrote: On 1/30/06, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Leon Rosenberg wrote: | On 1/29/06, David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have | heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily | without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: | | http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ | | | Stay clear of J2EE? Not really possible, especially with your book | recommendation, hibernate and spring are heavily J2EE based. Or did | you mean EJB? How are they J2EE based? JDBC is part of J2EE. JTA is part of J2EE. Servlets are part of J2EE. And spring states itself as: Welcome to the home of the Spring Framework. As the leading full-stack Java/J2EE application framework, Spring delivers significant benefits for many projects, reducing development effort and costs while improving test coverage and quality. Some app server marketeers would have you believe that J2EE == EJB and Sun has not been too vocal about correcting this. The fact is that EJBs are just the most complex piece of J2EE. App server vendors love to get you all wrapped up in them because unlike most everything else in J2EE you need a full blown app server to do them, so you have to choose one of them once you place EJBs in your solution. Given that they're the most complex, they're also a piece that some, if not many, folk truly don't need -- and a piece that has taken until J2EE 5 to get right (e.g. usable) in the spec (assuming it is finally right there). This will be changed very soon with Ejb3 and the Ejb3 container can be embedded. With a careful planning, we can develop with POJO, and then add annotations for using Ejb3 persistence framework. To make this distinction, some vendors start to use JEE (instead of J2EE) to stand for your selected embedded libraries. Now we can mix and match different services from different vendors. I see this is the real strength of Java thanks to standards and open sources. BaTien -- Jess Holle - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Tim Lucia wrote: Hibernate is not J2EE based. It just so happens it provides a EJB-free solution to a servlet container environment. Hibernate does not require J2EE. Nice terminology quandry that the app server marketeers have dug for us. They've painted a world of J2EE == EJB and J2EE == the only (good) way to do Java in the enterprise and transitively EJB == the only (good) way to do Java in the enterprise. Certainly and unquestionably one of the first two equalities is patently incorrect. I'd argue that the first is incorrect and that J2EE implies use of Java and any Java enterprise APIs that are appropriate for the problem. If somehow, none were appropriate (doubtful if one considers JDBC as both a J2SE and J2EE technology), then I'd still consider that J2EE. The problem is that by creating a clear lie in their definitions, app server marketeers have left the Java industry in a silly quandry. This affects things ranging from surveys of developers asking Which of the following do you use? (a) J2EE, (b) .NET, ... where developers may say no, I don't use J2EE as I don't use EJBs to a silly stigma against things like Hibernate both when they claim they're J2EE based (for having too much to do with EJB and app server complexity) and when they're not (for not being standards based). A fine hole dug by the marketeers... -- Jess Holle - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
From: Jess Holle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Nice terminology quandry that the app server marketeers have dug for us. They've painted a world of J2EE == EJB and J2EE == the only (good) way to do Java in the enterprise and transitively EJB == the only (good) way to do Java in the enterprise. EJB implies J2EE, but the reverse implication does not hold. That recognition is enough to defeat the marketing spin. - Peter P.S. So far to day, I've spent about half the day developing in C# and ASP.Net, and the other half developing in Java and JSP. I find them about as productive as each other, and neither as productive as one would ideally like. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Hi all I want to mentioned that it is not important which API is used from JAVA to say that your application is a J2EE application or not. The only two thinks which count are 1) it is written in java (of course) and 2) it is a distributed application. The API itsels like EJB, JNDI, JDBC, Java Servlets, hibernate, spring, etc is just to support the developer to develop a J2EE(distributed system) or other application and not to prove that this is a J2EE application or not. best regards Hans 2006/1/30, Peter Crowther [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From: Jess Holle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Nice terminology quandry that the app server marketeers have dug for us. They've painted a world of J2EE == EJB and J2EE == the only (good) way to do Java in the enterprise and transitively EJB == the only (good) way to do Java in the enterprise. EJB implies J2EE, but the reverse implication does not hold. That recognition is enough to defeat the marketing spin. - Peter P.S. So far to day, I've spent about half the day developing in C# and ASP.Net, and the other half developing in Java and JSP. I find them about as productive as each other, and neither as productive as one would ideally like. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- mfg Hans Sowa mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
From: Hans Sowa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] I want to mentioned that it is not important which API is used from JAVA to say that your application is a J2EE application or not. The only two thinks which count are 1) it is written in java (of course) and 2) it is a distributed application. That doesn't jibe with any use of the term distributable that I'm familiar with; perhaps you're using it in an unusual sense? J2EE is a large defined set of APIs and behaviors, so I think it is, in fact, the use of those APIs that determines whether or not a given application is J2EE-based or not. The question is somewhat moot, since it's difficult not to use J2EE in some fashion in anything but trivial applications. - Chuck THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
On 1/30/06, Tim Lucia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hibernate is not J2EE based. It just so happens it provides a EJB-free solution to a servlet container environment. Hibernate does not require J2EE. I think hibernate supports JTA and JDBC? Ok, JDBC isn't J2EE since 3.0 but was before. (Actually it should become J2EE in 4.0, but this was changed). But JTA is J2EE as well as JMX, isn't it? Tim Leon. But actually it doesn't play a role..., just another crutch to keep relational databases in business :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
You support my point. Hibernate is a JDBC-based, JTA-aware, object-relational-mapping framework for Java. I say JTA-aware because you are not required to use JTA for transactions just because you use Hibernate (you can, but you are not required to.) It is perfectly valid and reasonable to write a Java application (desktop) which uses Hibernate, and/or JDBC, without touching any J2EE APIs. A SQL database browsing tool (http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net/ comes immediately to mind) is a perfect example of such an application. Tim -Original Message- From: Leon Rosenberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 12:18 PM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] On 1/30/06, Tim Lucia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hibernate is not J2EE based. It just so happens it provides a EJB-free solution to a servlet container environment. Hibernate does not require J2EE. I think hibernate supports JTA and JDBC? Ok, JDBC isn't J2EE since 3.0 but was before. (Actually it should become J2EE in 4.0, but this was changed). But JTA is J2EE as well as JMX, isn't it? Tim Leon. But actually it doesn't play a role..., just another crutch to keep relational databases in business :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
--- Leon Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/30/06, Tim Lucia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hibernate is not J2EE based. It just so happens it provides a EJB-free solution to a servlet container environment. Hibernate does not require J2EE. I think hibernate supports JTA and JDBC? Ok, JDBC isn't J2EE since 3.0 but was before. (Actually it should become J2EE in 4.0, but this was changed). But JTA is J2EE as well as JMX, isn't it? Tim Leon. But actually it doesn't play a role..., just another crutch to keep relational databases in business :-) Actually JDBC isn't J2EE at all. XA transaction stuff is J2EE. XA can apply to a database or other transaction types as well completely unrelated to a database. JDBC is a standard J2SE API. See: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/ JDBC has been in the standard edition since 1.0 or 1.1. Everything in the docs here are standard java as of 1.5. See the 1.4.2 docs for pre 5.0 and obviously other versions to get pre version information for the version you look at. Thus, everything in this set of documentation is standard or J2SE and is not J2EE. For the list of APIs which is only J2EE (thoughmany if not most or all are available as separate API libraries from either Sun, Apache, or some other offering) see (this is 1.4): http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/api/index.html For a list of J2EE standards/specifications and future ones see: http://www.jcp.org and sort by technologies. and see: http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/index.html#specs Just want everyone to be clear what APIs are really J2EE and which ones are not before we discuss it. It seems to much misinformation gets out accidentally. The best source is to read the JSRs at the JCP. Then see a company such as Sun which lists all of the specifications for an easier view of the list. Doing that you can also see some applications and implementations which use the specifications. You can certainly create more than a trivial application completely skipping J2EE altogetherit just helps with some types of applications. For instance, you can take an implementation of a certain specification such as web applications and servlets. Create a servlet based web application and merely touch an API and specification not the complete J2EE stack and really don't have to call it J2EE if you don't want. Refer to it as it's JSR or say Servlet Spec 2.2, 2.3, or 2.4...pick one). Take Tomcat web applications for instance. You can reuse the Tomcat APIs to create a web application linking to the servlet.jar available from a distribution without ever downloading J2EE and linking to it. I believe what we see more of is the marketing hype and FUD confuses the use cases for many people and recruiters and human resource departments at organizations make it even more confusing for some others by the fact they don't know what their organization needs and all they know is what is on paper and then they try to talk about things like they know what they are talking about. That doesn't change the fact that one can create their own version of an API to match a certain specification then use that for linking and building to deploy to another system which supports many APIs and specifications including the one you may have targeted. So, just to be clear. Not all the APIs and specifications of J2EE have to be used to have a compliant application nor does a developer have to install J2EE to create a J2EE compliant application, they merely have to link to a set of interfaces matching a subset of J2EE for any given requirement, and sometimes this means it's easier to just download J2EE and get it all. I love software and programming :-D, Wade - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Hi Tony It's funny about your put words in our mouths... Is there written somewhere in this thread that Bill Gates is Satan or something like that ? What was said, and I think it's true, is that Microsoft (or Sun or IBM, if that matters) is a company trying to make money, whereas open source projects are generally made by developpers for developpers. At the end of the day, I think you could be rather grateful to the open source community which has driven Microsoft to provide some free versions of their tool, which was never the case (I think) before this surge of open source fuzz. Another aspect is how well Microsoft takes care of the developpers will always depends on business plan. Look back at the issue with VB, they have just dropped it because of a business plan pushing for .Net. If it was an open source project you would have the source code to rely on and, if a big enough community, it could still be going on. Furthermore, you're the one seeing a conflict between open source and editors like Microsoft. Most of the people in this thread have been eager to learn from .Net and how it could improve their own work/language and the like. Microsoft itself, I think, did have a deep look at the way J2EE/Java was working before starting their own .Net. Once again, I doubt a language/platform or anything is life can be simply the best overall/in absolut. I would just say that .Net fits better your needs, apparently because of what you think is a more suitable dev. tool, better language and better documentation for you. So be it. And before saying you have found the holy grail, you may wait a little to see if its holy effects last and, maybe, asking yourself if you were using Java the right way. For example you could have asked whether the same tools/doc are available and how, and if not why. I agree, for sure, that it may be easier to spot how to use .Net. It's a single vendor's offer, so... But once again, will this single source of tools/platform/language always provide it the way you would like it to be ? I guess the best is to hope the alternative will always be good enough to have Microsoft worries about you, if not it might quite unpleasant for the .Net users. Whatever, just my 2 cents, as usual ;) ZedroS - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Not Satan.. but a very good businessman That said we just inherited some vb code that accomplishes a cryptography algorithm just to get this to run under windoze took me 4 hours..the lack of VB doc was the blocking factor or maybe its probably because Im not a VB guy and never will be btw that same functionality can be accomplished with java libraries in under 1 hour why? there are opensource sites located world-wide in other words A little digging and some hard work on anyone's part will always get you an answer I cannot say the same thing for VB BTW: (VB).Net is an example of market forces pushing a company MS to develop a product (.NET) that meets marketplace need I for one welcome MS into the OOA/OOD world ~My 2 cents~ Martin- - Original Message - From: ZedroS Schwart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:44 AM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] Hi Tony It's funny about your put words in our mouths... Is there written somewhere in this thread that Bill Gates is Satan or something like that ? What was said, and I think it's true, is that Microsoft (or Sun or IBM, if that matters) is a company trying to make money, whereas open source projects are generally made by developpers for developpers. At the end of the day, I think you could be rather grateful to the open source community which has driven Microsoft to provide some free versions of their tool, which was never the case (I think) before this surge of open source fuzz. Another aspect is how well Microsoft takes care of the developpers will always depends on business plan. Look back at the issue with VB, they have just dropped it because of a business plan pushing for .Net. If it was an open source project you would have the source code to rely on and, if a big enough community, it could still be going on. Furthermore, you're the one seeing a conflict between open source and editors like Microsoft. Most of the people in this thread have been eager to learn from .Net and how it could improve their own work/language and the like. Microsoft itself, I think, did have a deep look at the way J2EE/Java was working before starting their own .Net. Once again, I doubt a language/platform or anything is life can be simply the best overall/in absolut. I would just say that .Net fits better your needs, apparently because of what you think is a more suitable dev. tool, better language and better documentation for you. So be it. And before saying you have found the holy grail, you may wait a little to see if its holy effects last and, maybe, asking yourself if you were using Java the right way. For example you could have asked whether the same tools/doc are available and how, and if not why. I agree, for sure, that it may be easier to spot how to use .Net. It's a single vendor's offer, so... But once again, will this single source of tools/platform/language always provide it the way you would like it to be ? I guess the best is to hope the alternative will always be good enough to have Microsoft worries about you, if not it might quite unpleasant for the .Net users. Whatever, just my 2 cents, as usual ;) ZedroS - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
David Thielen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote My conclusion between the two (now that .NET 2.0 has shipped) is: Portable - java Otherwise - .NET. A lot of the .NET advantage comes from the fact that the entire stack is from Microsoft so it all just works and is easy to use. Thanks - dave S'probably the truth. Maybe Microsoft will open up once Bill Steve have kicked the bucket. Would do them some good. Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ Best regards, -- David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
On 1/29/06, David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ Stay clear of J2EE? Not really possible, especially with your book recommendation, hibernate and spring are heavily J2EE based. Or did you mean EJB? Best regards, -- David Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Martin Gainty wrote: we just inherited some vb code that accomplishes a cryptography algorithm just to get this to run under windoze took me 4 hours..the lack of VB doc was the blocking factor or maybe its probably because Im not a VB guy and never will be btw that same functionality can be accomplished with java libraries in under 1 hour Doesn't sound like a fair comparison to me... give me someone who's not a Java guy, like your not a VB guy, and ask them to do the same thing... it may well take the same amount of time. Your right in that the functionality is easier in Java, but would someone who isn't versed in Java know that, or be able to figure it out quite as fast? I doubt it. why? there are opensource sites located world-wide in other words A little digging and some hard work on anyone's part will always get you an answer I cannot say the same thing for VB Are you talking VB or VB.Net? If your talking VB, you aren't looking in the right places. There is *plenty* of readily-available knowledge out there about VB. VB.Net is a different story... it's newer, and the resources haven't had time to build up to the same level (true in general for .Net). Give it another year or two and see what's out there. I think it'll be comparable. BTW: (VB).Net is an example of market forces pushing a company MS to develop a product (.NET) that meets marketplace need I for one welcome MS into the OOA/OOD world I agree. And, this is one of the rare times that MS got it closer to right than wrong the very first time. It's not perfect, I don't think anyone is claiming it is (no one worth listening to anyway), but 1.0 wasn't bad at all, and 2.0 improves things from everything I've heard (I'm only a casual .Net user myself). Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
--- David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/ Best regards, -- David Specifically on this one email: http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/api/index.html J2EE is an API set to support some specifications: http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/index.html#specs There isn't much to it. It depends on what specifically you are going to need to use. There are a lot of services provided by J2EE. So, naturally it's going to get a little complex. J2EE is J2SE+ and specifications. Then on the general topic/this thread: There is SO much mis-information put out by competing technologies and those wanting to evangelise for their perceived benefit. One could argue different terms and be correct in either direction. Java will run on more platforms currently, and .NET could were there to be more runtimes for more platforms. C# has some language features Java doesn't have which can be both helpful and harmful depending on view point. Java is much more KISS in that regard. Some organizations want to use the same environment across the board and might only want MS products. Fair enough, run with it. Some may not want to be limited in that regard as some organizations like to run heavy enterprise databases on more advanced and capable hardware. Some like to have different OS for different jobs. One size doesn't always fit all for every organization. So, to each their own. To say one is better than the other is merely a point of opinion and depending on what an organization wants to lock in on should dictate more than anything what technologies are used. Personally: = I prefer KISS as it helps to simplify things, so I prefer the java language. In C# you might have an event handler setup using delegates or interfaces. So you have different ways of doing the same thing. I prefer one way. I also prefer javas inheritance language compared to C# and it's C++ syntax. I don't like the package naming conventions set by MS either which makes it easy for namespace/class name collision. Nor do I like the new partial classes. I don't think certain things add to readability and aid in an overall project as much as they might help a single persons productivity with getting one thing done. I have done plenty of things in the past which helped me, but made it harder for other people to keep up with me on a project as it was merely understandable by me because I wrote it and the language supported me doing so. I've done this with C/C++ macros as well. So, some things personal and some things in the language are good candidates for me to drop from project usage when setting up conventions for an organizations project. Same thing in C++ would happen alotso for conventions unless there was no real way of doing something without using some complex hard to read syntaxI always limit the usage of certain language syntax. Other than language issues I prefer the Java platform all together unless .NET is a requirement imposed by someone else. There is no benefit which I can see in using .NET over Java. I would rather use one main environment and tool set and only user another when needed. Were that environment to be .NET I would feel the same way about Java. However, I develop for Linux, Windows, and Macintosh and occasionally flavors of Unix, so that kind of rules out .NET. = As to the notion that some application runs better on .NET vs Java or vice versareally it will all depend on how any given application is written and which one comes before the other: meaning...I can write an application and John Doe can come along behind me and improve on it and I can come along behind him and improve on what he did and we can keep doing this until we're exausted and neither one really accomplish anything better than the other but we can surely, each, convince a few others we did. Sun and Microsoft collaborate now days...just like before the lawsuit...now that they settled their ordeal. They entered into a technology sharing agreement which was a big news story when it first happened and was post on their sites, so who ever really thinks they aren't borrowing many of the same ideas from each other are blinded by the marketing and propaganda hype natually put out by commercial companies. I might be able to locate the article. So, to sum it up. Use what you are more confortable with most of the time, but don't lock yourself into any single technology as you'll certainly have to write some code in more than one langauge on more than one platform if you have a very long career in this field. Personally I prefer Java, but if I have an oppurtunity to help my career or my situation then I would be a fool to say
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
yes the same holds true for someone coming from Java or C++ to VB I dont know how many times I asked what var means or how to add components to a build file such as adding a target to ant task or how do I get a ptr to an object in VB? Thanks to gert driesen for his nant project which answers the 2nd item On the subject of doc ..I find any specifics about VB quite difficult to locate and blogs are not nearly as numerous as java I would strongly encourage every academic institution to replace their VB offerings with .NET to prepare their students for current as well as future markets (in general) and the OOD world (specifically) Thanks Frank, M- - Original Message - From: Frank W. Zammetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:09 PM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] Martin Gainty wrote: we just inherited some vb code that accomplishes a cryptography algorithm just to get this to run under windoze took me 4 hours..the lack of VB doc was the blocking factor or maybe its probably because Im not a VB guy and never will be btw that same functionality can be accomplished with java libraries in under 1 hour Doesn't sound like a fair comparison to me... give me someone who's not a Java guy, like your not a VB guy, and ask them to do the same thing... it may well take the same amount of time. Your right in that the functionality is easier in Java, but would someone who isn't versed in Java know that, or be able to figure it out quite as fast? I doubt it. why? there are opensource sites located world-wide in other words A little digging and some hard work on anyone's part will always get you an answer I cannot say the same thing for VB Are you talking VB or VB.Net? If your talking VB, you aren't looking in the right places. There is *plenty* of readily-available knowledge out there about VB. VB.Net is a different story... it's newer, and the resources haven't had time to build up to the same level (true in general for .Net). Give it another year or two and see what's out there. I think it'll be comparable. BTW: (VB).Net is an example of market forces pushing a company MS to develop a product (.NET) that meets marketplace need I for one welcome MS into the OOA/OOD world I agree. And, this is one of the rare times that MS got it closer to right than wrong the very first time. It's not perfect, I don't think anyone is claiming it is (no one worth listening to anyway), but 1.0 wasn't bad at all, and 2.0 improves things from everything I've heard (I'm only a casual .Net user myself). Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Martin Gainty wrote: On the subject of doc ..I find any specifics about VB quite difficult to locate and blogs are not nearly as numerous as java Interesting. Although I don't consider blogs a source of worthwild information on anything (and yes, that includes my own!), I've always found a wealth of VB knowledge on the web. Probably not quite as much as Java, but still. I would strongly encourage every academic institution to replace their VB offerings with .NET to prepare their students for current as well as future markets (in general) and the OOD world (specifically) I'd agree with that. Although, considering the difficulty we are currently having at my company finding VB experts (I long since ceased being an expert myself), perhaps colleges *are* preparing their students for the work world ;) I know a COBOL programmer that just landed himself a job making more than I am! I wouldn't be surprised if VB is the next COBOL in that regard :) Frank Thanks Frank, M- - Original Message - From: Frank W. Zammetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:09 PM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] Martin Gainty wrote: we just inherited some vb code that accomplishes a cryptography algorithm just to get this to run under windoze took me 4 hours..the lack of VB doc was the blocking factor or maybe its probably because Im not a VB guy and never will be btw that same functionality can be accomplished with java libraries in under 1 hour Doesn't sound like a fair comparison to me... give me someone who's not a Java guy, like your not a VB guy, and ask them to do the same thing... it may well take the same amount of time. Your right in that the functionality is easier in Java, but would someone who isn't versed in Java know that, or be able to figure it out quite as fast? I doubt it. why? there are opensource sites located world-wide in other words A little digging and some hard work on anyone's part will always get you an answer I cannot say the same thing for VB Are you talking VB or VB.Net? If your talking VB, you aren't looking in the right places. There is *plenty* of readily-available knowledge out there about VB. VB.Net is a different story... it's newer, and the resources haven't had time to build up to the same level (true in general for .Net). Give it another year or two and see what's out there. I think it'll be comparable. BTW: (VB).Net is an example of market forces pushing a company MS to develop a product (.NET) that meets marketplace need I for one welcome MS into the OOA/OOD world I agree. And, this is one of the rare times that MS got it closer to right than wrong the very first time. It's not perfect, I don't think anyone is claiming it is (no one worth listening to anyway), but 1.0 wasn't bad at all, and 2.0 improves things from everything I've heard (I'm only a casual .Net user myself). Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com AIM: fzammetti Yahoo: fzammetti MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Interesting. Although I don't consider blogs a source of worthwild information on anything (and yes, that includes my own!), I've always found a wealth of VB knowledge on the web. Probably not quite as much as Java, but still. I would strongly encourage every academic institution to replace their VB offerings with .NET to prepare their students for current as well as future markets (in general) and the OOD world (specifically) I'd agree with that. Although, considering the difficulty we are currently having at my company finding VB experts (I long since ceased being an expert myself), MGwell if the mother ship Microsoft isnt supporting their VB child I wonder how effective anyone could be supporting VB perhaps colleges *are* preparing their students for the work world ;) MGa definite maybe I know a COBOL programmer that just landed himself a job making more than I am! I wouldn't be surprised if VB is the next COBOL in that regard :) MGLife IS'NT Fair - Bill Gates Frank Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com AIM: fzammetti Yahoo: fzammetti MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
For a little bit of who really cares and what's it really matter anyways: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/haroldcarr/archive/2006/01/introducing_jav.html ;-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
- Original Message - From: David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:11 AM Subject: RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] David Thielen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote My conclusion between the two (now that .NET 2.0 has shipped) is: Portable - java Otherwise - .NET. A lot of the .NET advantage comes from the fact that the entire stack is from Microsoft so it all just works and is easy to use. Thanks - dave S'probably the truth. Maybe Microsoft will open up once Bill Steve have kicked the bucket. Would do them some good. Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: I agree whole heartedly. The Bruce Tate book along with Rod Johnson's, Expert One-on-One J2EE Development without EJB are indications of many Java developers' overall dissatisfaction with the ponderous, unnecessarily overbearing beast that is J2EE. My own feel is that all the Java Enterprise APIs that make up J2EE were more or less bolted on after the core Java language was established. Generally, I think choice' is A Good Thing. But at a certain point too much choice leads to fragmentation and confusion which in turn leads to frustration, sloppiness and failed projects. Just think about object persistence as an examplewhat do you use? Hibernate? EJBs? JDO? iBatis? TopLink? Something else? Then think of all the web related frameworks you have...Tapestry, Velocity, JSP, Cocoon, JSTL, JSF, Struts, probably a dozen more. Now, before someone corrects me, I realize there is not always a perfect overlap between all these projects. I realize that some of them are complimentary to others. Java, the core language, is good (although, as I mentioned in the original post, I think C# is a bit better). There's no doubt in my mind that C# and .NET benefited from Java and J2EE, just as Boeing and McDonnell Douglas benefited from the work of the Wright Brothers. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
A ms product conforming to JSR261??? nice to see some folks who can see interoperability is the name of the game Thanks for the great link! M- - Original Message - From: Wade Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org; Martin Gainty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 6:01 PM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] For a little bit of who really cares and what's it really matter anyways: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/haroldcarr/archive/2006/01/introducing_jav.html ;-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
All available class libraries were bolted on after the core language was established. You could say anything not in java.lang.* was bolted on. The beauty of all those bolt ons is that you have so much stuff already there, you can concentrate on your business logic. Even early in the C++ world, we still had to write linked lists explicitly. At least I am not forced to use IIS and SQLServer. -Original Message- From: Tony LaPaso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 6:59 PM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] - Original Message - From: David Tonhofer, m-plify S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:11 AM Subject: RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] David Thielen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote My conclusion between the two (now that .NET 2.0 has shipped) is: Portable - java Otherwise - .NET. A lot of the .NET advantage comes from the fact that the entire stack is from Microsoft so it all just works and is easy to use. Thanks - dave S'probably the truth. Maybe Microsoft will open up once Bill Steve have kicked the bucket. Would do them some good. Another 2c: When doing Java, you may want to stay clear of J2EE. I have heard it's the Wooly Mammoth framework and I have so far worked happily without it. I recommend a look at Bruce Tate's pamphlet here: I agree whole heartedly. The Bruce Tate book along with Rod Johnson's, Expert One-on-One J2EE Development without EJB are indications of many Java developers' overall dissatisfaction with the ponderous, unnecessarily overbearing beast that is J2EE. My own feel is that all the Java Enterprise APIs that make up J2EE were more or less bolted on after the core Java language was established. Generally, I think choice' is A Good Thing. But at a certain point too much choice leads to fragmentation and confusion which in turn leads to frustration, sloppiness and failed projects. Just think about object persistence as an examplewhat do you use? Hibernate? EJBs? JDO? iBatis? TopLink? Something else? Then think of all the web related frameworks you have...Tapestry, Velocity, JSP, Cocoon, JSTL, JSF, Struts, probably a dozen more. Now, before someone corrects me, I realize there is not always a perfect overlap between all these projects. I realize that some of them are complimentary to others. Java, the core language, is good (although, as I mentioned in the original post, I think C# is a bit better). There's no doubt in my mind that C# and .NET benefited from Java and J2EE, just as Boeing and McDonnell Douglas benefited from the work of the Wright Brothers. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Michael, I've read a few comparisons between .NET and J2EE. In the one you're referring to I think Microsoft had the advantage because they used stored procedures and the J2EE version did not...or maybe the J2EE version had auto-commit turned on which decreased it's performance, I don't quite remember. I don't know if it was a fair comparison or not. As far as my experience w/.NET vs. J2EE performance I really cannot comment as I don't have any experience with side by side comparisons. As I said in my original post, I am finding .NET to be infinitely easer to work with than J2EE. I feel I can be more productive than I can in the J2EE world. It's not just that .NET seems better than J2EE either. The core C# language is, I think, better than the core Java language. Unlike a lot of people in these groups, I am not a Microsoft hating Linux bigot. I don't care if Microsoft pours billions of dollars into RD or whether they have a powerful Marketing Machine. A Marketing Machine might get your foot in the door and arose interest but at the end of the day the quality of the technology will have to stand on its own. From what I've seen, .NET beats J2EE. I'm sorry to those of you who think Bill Gates in Satan incarnate. This is just one person's opinion. -- Tony LaPaso - Original Message - From: Michael Scano [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:10 PM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] Hey Tony, Thanks for sharing your experiences with .NET. I appreciate your candor and taking the time. One thing I didn't see you mention in the core support for XML. Do you know how much of an advantage this is compared to the the way in which Java works with XML. BTW, I visited the dotnet teams result page on their port of the Java Petshop reference application to .NET and my jaw dropped. Unless they're stretching the truth and exagerating wildly, I can't see how Java can compete. Have you seen this? http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/compare/veritest.aspx How close to reality do you think their results are. -Michael D. --- David Delbecq [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tony, am what you could call a junior programmer (less than 3 years expérience un j2ee) I'll just respond to a few java related point, as i don't know .NET - You say primitives are not nullable. If you need a nullable integer, use java.lang.Integer. - Operators overloading is something i consider dangerous, and i thanks sun for not implementing those - We are developping here a webapp which need to be deployed at several 'clients', whose server range from linux to windows to HP-UX, so cross-platform is an important constraint :) This explains the use of java. - The 'only one language' of JAVA compared to .NET make it easier for company to manage the knowledge of developpers, which can compensate the knowledge spreading across the various libraries Those too are only my opinions, and as you express yours, i express mine :) BTW, i don't think there is a conflict .NET - J2EE Simply use the right tool for the right purpose. Le Mercredi 25 Janvier 2006 04:27, Tony LaPaso a écrit : Hi all, I should mention that this post is a bit off topic. If you hate Microsoft then stop reading now and I'm sorry for wasting your time. I don't own stock in Microsoft, I don't know Bill Gates and nobody paid me or asked me to say the things I wrote below. These are just my opinions based on my experiences with many years in Java and two months of learning .NET/C# 2.0. I've been programming in Java/J2EE for the past 8+ years, most of this time as a contractor for several companies on many J2EE projects. I even have a small (and now hopelessly out of date) Java web site that I've maintained for the past 5+ years at www.absolutejava.com, which will be removed in early May. Until about 8 weeks ago, I never even considered looking at anything Microsoft offered. Recently though, on a whim, I browsed over to the Microsoft site because I'd heard about their new release of Visual Studio. I'd been a Windows programmer back in the mid '90s and was curious to see how Visual Studio (it was Visual C++ back then) had evolved (or not). I didn't download Visual Studio but instead I downloaded a couple free tutorial videos for Microsoft's Web Developer Express product (which is a free product, BTW). Web Developer Express has a subset of the features in the full Visual Studio product and is used for building server-side (or client side, for that matter) web apps. I couldn't believe what I saw. Web Developer Express blows away anything we have in the Java world for developing server-side web apps. It was kind of a jaw-dropping experience to see what the tool can do and what ASP.NET offers compared to servlets/JSP/Struts/JSTL/JSF. I don't want to turn this post into a feature by feature comparison of ASP.NET and equivalent Java technologies. My impression
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
I also must comment on your comment about the Microsoft documentation. One of the things I've hated about using Tomcat is the horrible documentation. IMHO bad documentation is very typical of open source projects and if you think about the open source mantra, it makes sense, doesn't it? Consider this: An open source project is staffed by volunteers. They're not paid for their time. As a result, they're only going to work on those aspects of the project they find fun and interesting to work on. As a software developer, I can tell you that very few programmers I've known find writing documentation fun and interesting. The result is, as we see in Tomcat, documentation that is incomplete, inconsistent and very piecemeal. The poor documentation is just one problem with the open source philosophy. There are other, more serious problems that I won't go into here. Now let's consider Microsoft, or any software company that pays its people. First of all, Microsoft has (I would assume) professional technical writers. That fact alone will mean their documentation is more likely to be better than that of an open source project. Second, when a programmer at Microsoft writes documentation he is probably doing so because of it's part of the job, just like writing code. To *not* write good documentation would probably affect Microsoft programmers' performance reviews and financial compensation. Since open source programmers don't have to worry about performance reviews or financial compensation, why should they bother writing that boring documentation when they can be writing code instead? -- Tony LaPaso - Original Message - From: David Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:11 AM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] Most of the observations I've seen in this thread are based on Microsoft's marketing. Something that should be taken with more than just a grain of salt. Just look at what they did at their own anti-trust trial here in the US a couple of years ago when they purposely sabbotaged comparison tests of Windows with and without IE. They were under oath at the time! I will say I have used their products to develop solutions in the past and it's ... well ... interesting. The stuff works well when you know how to use it. Unfortunately I found their docs no where near the quality of Tomcat or Java which prolonged development on something that should have been extremely simple. Also the whole C#/aspx design is centered around events just like Windows itself which I find just a little disconcerting. Not a problem if you're already familiar with programming in Access. I would prefer a cleaner, more visible flow. Lastly, and this is specific to the PetStore demo below, I've never seen a conversion that has ever gotten it right from the start. It'll be guaranteed converting Java to .Net will be suboptimal at best considering the paradigm differences in processing structure. Your almost better off starting over again recoding the whole thing in .Net using your existing Java code as a reference model. In the end, I think comparing Java servlets to .Net is like comparing apples to tomatoes. They're both fruit, but that's where the similarities end. --David ZedroS Schwart wrote: Regarding the Petshop, there was a great deal of discussion about it on TSS a few months ago. In fact, apparently, the petshop on the Java side wasn't designed to be efficient, just a show case. Which, we agree, is quite a shame. However, further points where disturbing : - versions of the databases' drivers were different. In the case of the JDBc driver it was an old one. - the choice of the databases is also crucial in such cironcstance, and it wasn't fully transparent either. On the .Net side they did devote a whole team to improve the code. To be fair, they told the TSS crowd they would make any change deemed necessary (by the TSS crowd) to the Java petShop code, but the issues above, about the databases, remained unsolved. All in all, I consider it quite hard to judge with this example. But, as usual, it's just my 2 cents ;) Cheers, ZedroS On 1/27/06, Michael Scano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Tony, Thanks for sharing your experiences with .NET. I appreciate your candor and taking the time. One thing I didn't see you mention in the core support for XML. Do you know how much of an advantage this is compared to the the way in which Java works with XML. BTW, I visited the dotnet teams result page on their port of the Java Petshop reference application to .NET and my jaw dropped. Unless they're stretching the truth and exagerating wildly, I can't see how Java can compete. Have you seen this? http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/compare/veritest.aspx How close to reality do you think their results are. -Michael D. --- David Delbecq [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tony, am what you could
Re: Features comparisons for Tomcat (was Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic])
If you can make Tomcat better that would be great. But I would recommend you not be too dismissive about the improvements Microsoft has made to web development. You should really take a look at ASP.NET and the development tools Microsoft offers before you dismiss them as Creature Comforts. As I mentioned in my original post, Microsoft's Web Developer Express is free and, in my opinion, it's a Big Wow. Be sure to look at the accompanying (free) video tutorial series. For me, what Microsoft has done was enough to make me throw in the towel after 8+ years in Java, which I've found to be a little depressing and exciting at the same time. -- Tony LaPaso - Original Message - From: Richard Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:37 PM Subject: Features comparisons for Tomcat (was Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]) It's kind of nice to see this discussion on this board, because it can serve as a way for Tomcat developers to think about what features really help and what features don't. I'm going to avoid M$ bashing cause it's not productive, but I think it's wise to look at the effect creature features have on product popularity and take note. My goal in continuing this thread under a new topic is to foster discussion about valuable Tomcat features. Hopefully it will spark some ideas about how to improve the popularity and appeal of Tomcat. I'll start with a short list of one relevant item. I encourage anyone to add to this, but please use the following format: TOMCAT FEATURE NAME/TYPE SUMMARY: description of the feature/issue RELEVANT INFORMATION: additional information IMPARCTED TOMCAT FEATURES: how Tomcat might be affected. SUGGESTIONS FOR ADDRESSING THE FEATURE: what can be done EASE OF USE SUMMARY: Some believe that the Microsoft web development experience is truely more pleasant than that of Java, and the often cite the number of people who have switched from Java to .NET platforms becuase of the percieved differences in ease of use. RELAVENT INFORMATION: On one hand, some people maintain that Tomcat is quite easy to use because starting and stopping the server requires the typing of a single command line. The counter argument to this claim is that a measure of ease of use should include all aspects of application development, deployment, and maintenance. For the purposes of discussion, ease of use for the Java platform and related Tomcat applications need to be clarified. Since Tomcat is built for the Java platform, we can view Tomcat ease of use as an extension of the concept of Java Platform ease of use. This will allow us to compare the overall Tomcat development experience with that of the Microsoft development experience. Unlike Microsoft development tools, which require the use of an IDE for efficient developemnt, the Java platform and related products (e.g. Tomcat server) make the use of IDE strictly optional. Consequently, a comparison between Java development and .NET development experiences cannot effectively be made by focusing on the steps required to build and compile a program. On the Java platform, the use of IDEs are strictly optional. Comparisons made between Microsoft IDEs and othe IDEs would more appropriately be restricted to the IDEs themselves, and not the platform. The fact that Microsoft has required the use of it's Visual Studio application to build and deploy application on the .NET platform complicates comparisons. The Microsoft development platform typically integrates the development tool with the server so that the developer clicks to deploy. This feature is not unique to Microsoft products, however. For example, Netbeans IDE integrates with Tomcat and provides many similar features to the Microsoft product set. This indicates the percieved differences in ease of use for may be an issue of user awareness about the available IDEs. While some prefer interacting with a development tool that requires less technical knowledge, others argue that such tools allow more room for less competent developers which can drastically reduce the overall quality of the end product. Furthermore, with the Java Development platform, the clear dilenation between the Java Runtime Environment, the Java Software Development Kit, and the optional IDEs give developers greater flexibility in building code, and the option to only install the development tools necessary. This capability is especially popular among those who are skilled in the development of applications using simple text editors, such as vi. Such developers argue that requiring the use of an IDE simply means more desktop software maintenance and upgrade issues. IMPACTED TOMCAT FEATURES: Maintainers of the tomcat platform so far appear to be finding a balance betwen developers with higher technical competencies and those who lean toward creature features
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
All I can say is individual mileage may vary. Good luck with the Microsoft projects. -- David Tony LaPaso wrote: I also must comment on your comment about the Microsoft documentation. One of the things I've hated about using Tomcat is the horrible documentation. IMHO bad documentation is very typical of open source projects and if you think about the open source mantra, it makes sense, doesn't it? Consider this: An open source project is staffed by volunteers. They're not paid for their time. As a result, they're only going to work on those aspects of the project they find fun and interesting to work on. As a software developer, I can tell you that very few programmers I've known find writing documentation fun and interesting. The result is, as we see in Tomcat, documentation that is incomplete, inconsistent and very piecemeal. The poor documentation is just one problem with the open source philosophy. There are other, more serious problems that I won't go into here. Now let's consider Microsoft, or any software company that pays its people. First of all, Microsoft has (I would assume) professional technical writers. That fact alone will mean their documentation is more likely to be better than that of an open source project. Second, when a programmer at Microsoft writes documentation he is probably doing so because of it's part of the job, just like writing code. To *not* write good documentation would probably affect Microsoft programmers' performance reviews and financial compensation. Since open source programmers don't have to worry about performance reviews or financial compensation, why should they bother writing that boring documentation when they can be writing code instead? -- Tony LaPaso - Original Message - From: David Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:11 AM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] Most of the observations I've seen in this thread are based on Microsoft's marketing. Something that should be taken with more than just a grain of salt. Just look at what they did at their own anti-trust trial here in the US a couple of years ago when they purposely sabbotaged comparison tests of Windows with and without IE. They were under oath at the time! I will say I have used their products to develop solutions in the past and it's ... well ... interesting. The stuff works well when you know how to use it. Unfortunately I found their docs no where near the quality of Tomcat or Java which prolonged development on something that should have been extremely simple. Also the whole C#/aspx design is centered around events just like Windows itself which I find just a little disconcerting. Not a problem if you're already familiar with programming in Access. I would prefer a cleaner, more visible flow. Lastly, and this is specific to the PetStore demo below, I've never seen a conversion that has ever gotten it right from the start. It'll be guaranteed converting Java to .Net will be suboptimal at best considering the paradigm differences in processing structure. Your almost better off starting over again recoding the whole thing in .Net using your existing Java code as a reference model. In the end, I think comparing Java servlets to .Net is like comparing apples to tomatoes. They're both fruit, but that's where the similarities end. --David ZedroS Schwart wrote: Regarding the Petshop, there was a great deal of discussion about it on TSS a few months ago. In fact, apparently, the petshop on the Java side wasn't designed to be efficient, just a show case. Which, we agree, is quite a shame. However, further points where disturbing : - versions of the databases' drivers were different. In the case of the JDBc driver it was an old one. - the choice of the databases is also crucial in such cironcstance, and it wasn't fully transparent either. On the .Net side they did devote a whole team to improve the code. To be fair, they told the TSS crowd they would make any change deemed necessary (by the TSS crowd) to the Java petShop code, but the issues above, about the databases, remained unsolved. All in all, I consider it quite hard to judge with this example. But, as usual, it's just my 2 cents ;) Cheers, ZedroS On 1/27/06, Michael Scano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Tony, Thanks for sharing your experiences with .NET. I appreciate your candor and taking the time. One thing I didn't see you mention in the core support for XML. Do you know how much of an advantage this is compared to the the way in which Java works with XML. BTW, I visited the dotnet teams result page on their port of the Java Petshop reference application to .NET and my jaw dropped. Unless they're stretching the truth and exagerating wildly, I can't see how Java can compete. Have you seen this? http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/compare/veritest.aspx How close to reality do you think
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
I've done bith and if you are looking to have common source between the two - take a look at www.gotjsharp.com for some suggestions. My conclusion between the two (now that .NET 2.0 has shipped) is: Portable - java Otherwise - .NET. A lot of the .NET advantage comes from the fact that the entire stack is from Microsoft so it all just works and is easy to use. Thanks - dave David Thielen www.windwardreports.com 303-499-2544 -Original Message- From: David Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 9:09 PM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] All I can say is individual mileage may vary. Good luck with the Microsoft projects. -- David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Regarding the Petshop, there was a great deal of discussion about it on TSS a few months ago. In fact, apparently, the petshop on the Java side wasn't designed to be efficient, just a show case. Which, we agree, is quite a shame. However, further points where disturbing : - versions of the databases' drivers were different. In the case of the JDBc driver it was an old one. - the choice of the databases is also crucial in such cironcstance, and it wasn't fully transparent either. On the .Net side they did devote a whole team to improve the code. To be fair, they told the TSS crowd they would make any change deemed necessary (by the TSS crowd) to the Java petShop code, but the issues above, about the databases, remained unsolved. All in all, I consider it quite hard to judge with this example. But, as usual, it's just my 2 cents ;) Cheers, ZedroS On 1/27/06, Michael Scano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Tony, Thanks for sharing your experiences with .NET. I appreciate your candor and taking the time. One thing I didn't see you mention in the core support for XML. Do you know how much of an advantage this is compared to the the way in which Java works with XML. BTW, I visited the dotnet teams result page on their port of the Java Petshop reference application to .NET and my jaw dropped. Unless they're stretching the truth and exagerating wildly, I can't see how Java can compete. Have you seen this? http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/compare/veritest.aspx How close to reality do you think their results are. -Michael D. --- David Delbecq [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tony, am what you could call a junior programmer (less than 3 years expérience un j2ee) I'll just respond to a few java related point, as i don't know .NET - You say primitives are not nullable. If you need a nullable integer, use java.lang.Integer. - Operators overloading is something i consider dangerous, and i thanks sun for not implementing those - We are developping here a webapp which need to be deployed at several 'clients', whose server range from linux to windows to HP-UX, so cross-platform is an important constraint :) This explains the use of java. - The 'only one language' of JAVA compared to .NET make it easier for company to manage the knowledge of developpers, which can compensate the knowledge spreading across the various libraries Those too are only my opinions, and as you express yours, i express mine :) BTW, i don't think there is a conflict .NET - J2EE Simply use the right tool for the right purpose. Le Mercredi 25 Janvier 2006 04:27, Tony LaPaso a écrit : Hi all, I should mention that this post is a bit off topic. If you hate Microsoft then stop reading now and I'm sorry for wasting your time. I don't own stock in Microsoft, I don't know Bill Gates and nobody paid me or asked me to say the things I wrote below. These are just my opinions based on my experiences with many years in Java and two months of learning .NET/C# 2.0. I've been programming in Java/J2EE for the past 8+ years, most of this time as a contractor for several companies on many J2EE projects. I even have a small (and now hopelessly out of date) Java web site that I've maintained for the past 5+ years at www.absolutejava.com, which will be removed in early May. Until about 8 weeks ago, I never even considered looking at anything Microsoft offered. Recently though, on a whim, I browsed over to the Microsoft site because I'd heard about their new release of Visual Studio. I'd been a Windows programmer back in the mid '90s and was curious to see how Visual Studio (it was Visual C++ back then) had evolved (or not). I didn't download Visual Studio but instead I downloaded a couple free tutorial videos for Microsoft's Web Developer Express product (which is a free product, BTW). Web Developer Express has a subset of the features in the full Visual Studio product and is used for building server-side (or client side, for that matter) web apps. I couldn't believe what I saw. Web Developer Express blows away anything we have in the Java world for developing server-side web apps. It was kind of a jaw-dropping experience to see what the tool can do and what ASP.NET offers compared to servlets/JSP/Struts/JSTL/JSF. I don't want to turn this post into a feature by feature comparison of ASP.NET and equivalent Java technologies. My impression, though, from watching these tutorial videos is that we in the J2EE world are living like knuckle-dragging Barbarians, scratching out an existence clothed in bear skins, using stone knives and sticks as our tools of choice. Those using .NET are living in fine brick homes with hardwood floors, fireplaces and regular visits from PeaPod. After looking at ASP.NET I became interested in
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
On Fri, January 27, 2006 8:11 am, David Smith said: I will say I have used their products to develop solutions in the past and it's ... well ... interesting. The stuff works well when you know how to use it. Unfortunately I found their docs no where near the quality of Tomcat or Java which prolonged development on something that should have been extremely simple. Wow, I've had just the opposite experience with their stuff. Especially in terms of documentation, I've always found MSDN to be some of the best documentation around, generally far superior to most open-source documentation (my guess is they have some generally non-technical editors looking it over... I can't imagine that quality of writing came from techies!) I will say though that they do tend to be a little short on examples, something open-source tends to have a lot more of. I think it's a difference in culture behind it... MS is coming from a more professional, business-like approach, and in that mindset writing documentation takes on more importance. In the open-source world, there's much more of the here's an example, go look at it and learn kind of mentality. I'm not making a judgment on which is better, I think they both have their pluses and minuses, just pointing out what I see as a difference. Also the whole C#/aspx design is centered around events just like Windows itself which I find just a little disconcerting. Not a problem if you're already familiar with programming in Access. I would prefer a cleaner, more visible flow. I'm not sure where the Access analogy comes in, but I do agree in that if you haven't done much with the event-driven model before then it can be a little disconcerting. I think we're seeing the same thing in the Java space with JSF right now... it's a basically event-driven model (they call it component-oriented, but it's in many ways the same thing), and this is somewhat new to many... ASP.Net is like bringing Windows programming to the web, whereas JSF is like bringing Swing to the web... imperfect analogies I suppose, but close enough :) Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Frank W. Zammetti wrote: On Fri, January 27, 2006 8:11 am, David Smith said: I will say I have used their products to develop solutions in the past and it's ... well ... interesting. The stuff works well when you know how to use it. Unfortunately I found their docs no where near the quality of Tomcat or Java which prolonged development on something that should have been extremely simple. Wow, I've had just the opposite experience with their stuff. Especially in terms of documentation, I've always found MSDN to be some of the best documentation around, generally far superior to most open-source documentation (my guess is they have some generally non-technical editors looking it over... I can't imagine that quality of writing came from techies!) I will say though that they do tend to be a little short on examples, something open-source tends to have a lot more of. Examples are IMHO the best documentation. I can get a lot more information info with a good example. Plus I think the MS docs hide too much of the internals -- a pain when you are analyzing the corner conditions that might cause an app to fail or unexpected behavior. I think it's a difference in culture behind it... MS is coming from a more professional, business-like approach, and in that mindset writing documentation takes on more importance. In the open-source world, there's much more of the here's an example, go look at it and learn kind of mentality. I'm not making a judgment on which is better, I think they both have their pluses and minuses, just pointing out what I see as a difference. Also the whole C#/aspx design is centered around events just like Windows itself which I find just a little disconcerting. Not a problem if you're already familiar with programming in Access. I would prefer a cleaner, more visible flow. I'm not sure where the Access analogy comes in, but I do agree in that if you haven't done much with the event-driven model before then it can be a little disconcerting. I think we're seeing the same thing in the Java space with JSF right now... it's a basically event-driven model (they call it component-oriented, but it's in many ways the same thing), and this is somewhat new to many... ASP.Net is like bringing Windows programming to the web, whereas JSF is like bringing Swing to the web... imperfect analogies I suppose, but close enough :) The layout controls in Access are all very event driven, just like C#/aspx technology. Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
--- Tony LaPaso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly -- $5,000 and it's yours! -- Tony LaPaso - Original Message - From: Leon Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 4:00 AM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] I've been programming in Java/J2EE for the past 8+ years, most of this time as a contractor for several companies on many J2EE projects. I even have a small (and now hopelessly out of date) Java web site that I've maintained for the past 5+ years at www.absolutejava.com, which will be removed in early May. since you don't need it anymore, can i have it? :-) I mean the domainname regards Leon Squatter: If he doesn't keep renewing it then it will be up for grabs anyways. Wade - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Hey Tony, Thanks for sharing your experiences with .NET. I appreciate your candor and taking the time. One thing I didn't see you mention in the core support for XML. Do you know how much of an advantage this is compared to the the way in which Java works with XML. BTW, I visited the dotnet teams result page on their port of the Java Petshop reference application to .NET and my jaw dropped. Unless they're stretching the truth and exagerating wildly, I can't see how Java can compete. Have you seen this? http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/compare/veritest.aspx How close to reality do you think their results are. -Michael D. --- David Delbecq [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tony, am what you could call a junior programmer (less than 3 years expérience un j2ee) I'll just respond to a few java related point, as i don't know .NET - You say primitives are not nullable. If you need a nullable integer, use java.lang.Integer. - Operators overloading is something i consider dangerous, and i thanks sun for not implementing those - We are developping here a webapp which need to be deployed at several 'clients', whose server range from linux to windows to HP-UX, so cross-platform is an important constraint :) This explains the use of java. - The 'only one language' of JAVA compared to .NET make it easier for company to manage the knowledge of developpers, which can compensate the knowledge spreading across the various libraries Those too are only my opinions, and as you express yours, i express mine :) BTW, i don't think there is a conflict .NET - J2EE Simply use the right tool for the right purpose. Le Mercredi 25 Janvier 2006 04:27, Tony LaPaso a écrit : Hi all, I should mention that this post is a bit off topic. If you hate Microsoft then stop reading now and I'm sorry for wasting your time. I don't own stock in Microsoft, I don't know Bill Gates and nobody paid me or asked me to say the things I wrote below. These are just my opinions based on my experiences with many years in Java and two months of learning .NET/C# 2.0. I've been programming in Java/J2EE for the past 8+ years, most of this time as a contractor for several companies on many J2EE projects. I even have a small (and now hopelessly out of date) Java web site that I've maintained for the past 5+ years at www.absolutejava.com, which will be removed in early May. Until about 8 weeks ago, I never even considered looking at anything Microsoft offered. Recently though, on a whim, I browsed over to the Microsoft site because I'd heard about their new release of Visual Studio. I'd been a Windows programmer back in the mid '90s and was curious to see how Visual Studio (it was Visual C++ back then) had evolved (or not). I didn't download Visual Studio but instead I downloaded a couple free tutorial videos for Microsoft's Web Developer Express product (which is a free product, BTW). Web Developer Express has a subset of the features in the full Visual Studio product and is used for building server-side (or client side, for that matter) web apps. I couldn't believe what I saw. Web Developer Express blows away anything we have in the Java world for developing server-side web apps. It was kind of a jaw-dropping experience to see what the tool can do and what ASP.NET offers compared to servlets/JSP/Struts/JSTL/JSF. I don't want to turn this post into a feature by feature comparison of ASP.NET and equivalent Java technologies. My impression, though, from watching these tutorial videos is that we in the J2EE world are living like knuckle-dragging Barbarians, scratching out an existence clothed in bear skins, using stone knives and sticks as our tools of choice. Those using .NET are living in fine brick homes with hardwood floors, fireplaces and regular visits from PeaPod. After looking at ASP.NET I became interested in looking at the C# language, proper. My impressions of C# vs. Java mirrored those of ASP.NET vs. servlets/JSP/etc. Java has kludgey support for properties and events (they're just regular methods with parameters) while C# has the constructs (delegates events) built directly into the core language. C# also supports co-routines, something we have to simulate in Java as well as out parameters (which allow a method to change the caller's parameter's value) and operator overloading. C# also has nullable types. Imagine Java's primitive types being able to hold null values. This is highly useful when working with databases. Finally, .NET provides an integrated and more comprehensive approach to setting security permissions and versioning of what are called, assemblies. Assemblies are very roughly equivalent to JARs. This allows you to compile your code against a specific version of an assembly and have that version information
Features comparisons for Tomcat (was Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic])
It's kind of nice to see this discussion on this board, because it can serve as a way for Tomcat developers to think about what features really help and what features don't. I'm going to avoid M$ bashing cause it's not productive, but I think it's wise to look at the effect creature features have on product popularity and take note. My goal in continuing this thread under a new topic is to foster discussion about valuable Tomcat features. Hopefully it will spark some ideas about how to improve the popularity and appeal of Tomcat. I'll start with a short list of one relevant item. I encourage anyone to add to this, but please use the following format: TOMCAT FEATURE NAME/TYPE SUMMARY: description of the feature/issue RELEVANT INFORMATION: additional information IMPARCTED TOMCAT FEATURES: how Tomcat might be affected. SUGGESTIONS FOR ADDRESSING THE FEATURE: what can be done EASE OF USE SUMMARY: Some believe that the Microsoft web development experience is truely more pleasant than that of Java, and the often cite the number of people who have switched from Java to .NET platforms becuase of the percieved differences in ease of use. RELAVENT INFORMATION: On one hand, some people maintain that Tomcat is quite easy to use because starting and stopping the server requires the typing of a single command line. The counter argument to this claim is that a measure of ease of use should include all aspects of application development, deployment, and maintenance. For the purposes of discussion, ease of use for the Java platform and related Tomcat applications need to be clarified. Since Tomcat is built for the Java platform, we can view Tomcat ease of use as an extension of the concept of Java Platform ease of use. This will allow us to compare the overall Tomcat development experience with that of the Microsoft development experience. Unlike Microsoft development tools, which require the use of an IDE for efficient developemnt, the Java platform and related products (e.g. Tomcat server) make the use of IDE strictly optional. Consequently, a comparison between Java development and .NET development experiences cannot effectively be made by focusing on the steps required to build and compile a program. On the Java platform, the use of IDEs are strictly optional. Comparisons made between Microsoft IDEs and othe IDEs would more appropriately be restricted to the IDEs themselves, and not the platform. The fact that Microsoft has required the use of it's Visual Studio application to build and deploy application on the .NET platform complicates comparisons. The Microsoft development platform typically integrates the development tool with the server so that the developer clicks to deploy. This feature is not unique to Microsoft products, however. For example, Netbeans IDE integrates with Tomcat and provides many similar features to the Microsoft product set. This indicates the percieved differences in ease of use for may be an issue of user awareness about the available IDEs. While some prefer interacting with a development tool that requires less technical knowledge, others argue that such tools allow more room for less competent developers which can drastically reduce the overall quality of the end product. Furthermore, with the Java Development platform, the clear dilenation between the Java Runtime Environment, the Java Software Development Kit, and the optional IDEs give developers greater flexibility in building code, and the option to only install the development tools necessary. This capability is especially popular among those who are skilled in the development of applications using simple text editors, such as vi. Such developers argue that requiring the use of an IDE simply means more desktop software maintenance and upgrade issues. IMPACTED TOMCAT FEATURES: Maintainers of the tomcat platform so far appear to be finding a balance betwen developers with higher technical competencies and those who lean toward creature features. By providing a well published deployment interface and open source implementation, the Tomcat team leaves open the opportunity for integrated IDE development by others. Continuing to pursue this strategy will most likely ensure that a) the Tomcat development team retains flexibility down the road; and, b) gives competitors the opportunity to expend resources on features in their own products that don't ultimately increase sales for their product; and, c) caters to the development community with a higher degree of technical skill, which can produce web based application of higher quality. SUGGESTIONS FOR ADDRESSING THE FEATURE: Percieved differences in ease of use may be addressed through traditional advertising and a comprehensive marketing plan. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Microsoft Web Development Experience is truely more pleasant than that of Java, and i have known a number of people do the switch based on that, though they usually like to support it with some additional arguments like u did, but at the end of the day, the ease of development and that everything is right there in one place still comes through as the reason, or at least the primary reason, for the switch. As with anything in life, there is a price to pay for freedom, and Java in many ways is liberty. And guaranteeing and assuring that liberty is not an easy task. But of course you decided to make your (developer) life a little easier. cool! i only hope you thought it through. I dont think there's a point giving attention to the so called points you made comparing Java and C# / ASP.NET. i see them as some of those usual add on reasons, behind the real reason. For those of us that liberty, security, etc, are important to, the extra burden of Web Development in Java is okay. Hey! by the way a person may be eight years into something and have little or no understanding of it! Tony LaPaso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I should mention that this post is a bit off topic. If you hate Microsoft then stop reading now and I'm sorry for wasting your time. I don't own stock in Microsoft, I don't know Bill Gates and nobody paid me or asked me to say the things I wrote below. These are just my opinions based on my experiences with many years in Java and two months of learning .NET/C# 2.0. I've been programming in Java/J2EE for the past 8+ years, most of this time as a contractor for several companies on many J2EE projects. I even have a small (and now hopelessly out of date) Java web site that I've maintained for the past 5+ years at www.absolutejava.com, which will be removed in early May. Until about 8 weeks ago, I never even considered looking at anything Microsoft offered. Recently though, on a whim, I browsed over to the Microsoft site because I'd heard about their new release of Visual Studio. I'd been a Windows programmer back in the mid '90s and was curious to see how Visual Studio (it was Visual C++ back then) had evolved (or not). I didn't download Visual Studio but instead I downloaded a couple free tutorial videos for Microsoft's Web Developer Express product (which is a free product, BTW). Web Developer Express has a subset of the features in the full Visual Studio product and is used for building server-side (or client side, for that matter) web apps. I couldn't believe what I saw. Web Developer Express blows away anything we have in the Java world for developing server-side web apps. It was kind of a jaw-dropping experience to see what the tool can do and what ASP.NET offers compared to servlets/JSP/Struts/JSTL/JSF. I don't want to turn this post into a feature by feature comparison of ASP.NET and equivalent Java technologies. My impression, though, from watching these tutorial videos is that we in the J2EE world are living like knuckle-dragging Barbarians, scratching out an existence clothed in bear skins, using stone knives and sticks as our tools of choice. Those using .NET are living in fine brick homes with hardwood floors, fireplaces and regular visits from PeaPod. After looking at ASP.NET I became interested in looking at the C# language, proper. My impressions of C# vs. Java mirrored those of ASP.NET vs. servlets/JSP/etc. Java has kludgey support for properties and events (they're just regular methods with parameters) while C# has the constructs (delegates events) built directly into the core language. C# also supports co-routines, something we have to simulate in Java as well as out parameters (which allow a method to change the caller's parameter's value) and operator overloading. C# also has nullable types. Imagine Java's primitive types being able to hold null values. This is highly useful when working with databases. Finally, .NET provides an integrated and more comprehensive approach to setting security permissions and versioning of what are called, assemblies. Assemblies are very roughly equivalent to JARs. This allows you to compile your code against a specific version of an assembly and have that version information maintained in the resulting executable. It also allows several versions of the same assemblies (again, think JARs) to co-exist peacefully in a global, system-wide cache of assemblies. Sun should have given us something like this five years ago. Another advantage I saw with .NET is that it is more cross language friendly than Java. First of all, .NET, like Java, executes a platform neutral representation of a program (analogous to Java bytecode). Unlike Java, .NET programs can be written in many languages (C#, C++, Perl, Python, J#, VB, and many others). Microsoft's J# is, from what I've seen, a clone of Java (although I'm sure there are differences). The point I
RE: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
I've been developing with Microsoft Products for 15 year. At one point I was an MVP, and I was on the original MVP program steering committee. Here's what I can tell you about MS product development. A lot of my comments are going to be about FoxPro, which I used most, but the same issues exist with other tools. Corporate strategy drives tool development, not developer desires. Several years ago, with FoxPro, OLE forms was the big thing. So, the bulk of the development effort went into creating the ability to run FoxPro forms as OLE controls in a browser. None of the developers wanted it. They wanted an improved report writer and menu system. No one that I know ever used this capability. There are ALWAYS a lot of unexpected problems when using MS tools. Take for example, memo fields and ADO. You basically only get one shot to read a memo field from an ADO result set. Once you access it, its consumed and you can't get the value again. There's also a problem in ADO if you don't make sure that memo fields are the last elements in a select list. In FoxPro, if you assign a string longer than 200 characters to a caption, the caption isn't displayed at all. Its not truncated, and it doesn't throw an error, it just doesn't display. You're just sitting there, scratching your head wonder why the heck it isn't working. If you create a view in FoxPro that is select * from table, and someone modifies the base table, you'll get an error opening the remote view, and you have to drop the view and re-add it. Don't even get me started on Windows Installer technology. Bugs RARELY get fixed. There's a problem in the Excel ODBC driver. If the first 6-8 rows are digits, the driver assumes the column type is numeric and will throw an error if later rows have characters. There's supposed to be an override feature to set the type, but it doesn't work either. Another example is THEAD/TBODY tags. There is a KB article for IE 4.0 (Q190278) saying that failure to support THEAD/TBODY tags for printing was a defect (although the revised KB article now says this is by design). This was never fixed in IE 4.0, 5.0, 5.5, or 6.0. I don't have IE 7.0 so I can't say if they have added support for it or not. There's a real corporate culture that says customers are fools, and these quirks don't have to be repaired. The problem is that a small bug in a development tool can easily consume a day of developer time. Tool strategy churn is another problem. Their development tool focus changes every two years. Did I mention tool strategy exists to sell servers (SQL, Windows, etc)? Right when developers become comfortable with a technology, the focus is changed. The end result is that companies end up with a series of core applications, each developed using a different toolset, methodology, or mindset. Developers never become proficient at a tool, and consequently quality of applications just sucks. These things make it almost impossible to accurately fix bid a project. You just never know when some obscure bug reported 5 years ago is going to come out and bite you. From my experience, I've had perhaps 1/10th of the development tool problems with Java compared to using MS tools. I can accurately cost estimate Java projects, and do them profitably. I know that I probably am not going to run into any bugs (where a large project will hit at least 5-10 in the MS world). So, good luck. I hope you're really happy. But, I think that when you have the experience and the career span that I do you'll start to see these things as I do and look for a way out. George Sexton MH Software, Inc. http://www.mhsoftware.com/ Voice: 303 438 9585 -Original Message- From: Tony LaPaso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 8:28 PM To: users@tomcat.apache.org Subject: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] Hi all, I should mention that this post is a bit off topic. If you hate Microsoft then stop reading now and I'm sorry for wasting your time. I don't own stock in Microsoft, I don't know Bill Gates and nobody paid me or asked me to say the things I wrote below. These are just my opinions based on my experiences with many years in Java and two months of learning .NET/C# 2.0. I've been programming in Java/J2EE for the past 8+ years, most of this time as a contractor for several companies on many J2EE projects. I even have a small (and now hopelessly out of date) Java web site that I've maintained for the past 5+ years at www.absolutejava.com, which will be removed in early May. Until about 8 weeks ago, I never even considered looking at anything Microsoft offered. Recently though, on a whim, I browsed over to the Microsoft site because I'd heard about their new release of Visual Studio. I'd been a Windows programmer back in the mid '90s and was curious to see how Visual Studio (it was Visual C++ back then) had evolved (or not). I didn't download Visual Studio but instead I downloaded
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
Certainly -- $5,000 and it's yours! -- Tony LaPaso - Original Message - From: Leon Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 4:00 AM Subject: Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic] I've been programming in Java/J2EE for the past 8+ years, most of this time as a contractor for several companies on many J2EE projects. I even have a small (and now hopelessly out of date) Java web site that I've maintained for the past 5+ years at www.absolutejava.com, which will be removed in early May. since you don't need it anymore, can i have it? :-) I mean the domainname regards Leon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: From Java to C#, ASP.NET [Off Topic]
You're right Tony, this posting is painfully off-topic for this list. Perhaps along with your new C# programming skills you can get work as an advertising writer for Microsoft. But, having said that, I would like to point out that Microsoft dumps a lot of money into researching and developing creature-features in their products, and developer hand-holding. Which is why you see the features you do. It's worthwhile to do a side-by-side features comparison and take advantage of Microsoft's investment into features development, and be aware of what features might attracts developers to a particular servlett platform like Tomcat. But, the bottom line with the Microsoft development tools, which I pay closely attention to myself, is that what you get in creature comforts you trade for in licensing fees and flexibility. That makes the perceived advantage you see is Microsoft products short lived - much shorter than the end-of-life cycle for Visual Studio. You might also consider that a skilled team with paper and pencil can develop and maintain Tomcat deployed applications that rival anything you can make with Visual Studio... and at less cost overall. Richard Schilling Tony LaPaso wrote: Hi all, I should mention that this post is a bit off topic. If you hate Microsoft then stop reading now and I'm sorry for wasting your time. I don't own stock in Microsoft, I don't know Bill Gates and nobody paid me - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
