Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 12 September 2013 16:10, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote: I think you'll need to upgrade LO to 4.0.5. When I was running 4.0.2 on my Linux Mint system, the itlc feature didn't work for me either. After I upgraded to LO 4.0.5, it began working. Don't ask me why. Why? :-) Thanks for the information. -- T. R. Valentine A rich heart may be under a poor coat. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/12/2013 02:49 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote:
That is similar to what I want it to do for me. But I can't seem to
get the italic function to work. I've tried making the value 0, 1, and
2, and can see absolutely no difference, even when using the example
in the help page ('a ileaf/i louse'). I'm using Ubuntu 13.04 with
Cinnamon 1.8.8 (no Unity for me!) and LO 4.0.2.2. I'm using Linux
Libertine G. The only two extensions installed are 'Presentation
Minimizer 1.0.4' (default) and 'Typography toolbar 0.5'. Does
something else have to be installed?
I think you'll need to upgrade LO to 4.0.5. When I was running 4.0.2 on
my Linux Mint system, the itlc feature didn't work for me either.
After I upgraded to LO 4.0.5, it began working. Don't ask me why.
Virgil
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
I've never paid money for a font. Not only do I not want to have to spend money, I want to know that my fonts are available on all the machines I use. At least here in America, font files are treated as computer software and subject to copyright protection even though the font design itself is not protected. I want freedom of use as well as freedom from price. Times New Roman is the title of the version of Times that comes standard with Windows. Palatino Linotype also comes standard with Windows. It is probably my favorite standard Windows font. While I'm not allowed to copy it, it will already exist on any Windows machine I use. URW has a set of classic fonts that are free. They include URWPalladio L -- a clone of Palatino CenturySchL -- a clone of Century Schoolbook GaramondNo8 -- an excellent classic Garamond NimbusRomanNo9 -- a clone of Times URW BookmanL -- a clone of Bookman, a font often used in children's books. I downloaded the URW fonts many years ago. Since then, I've had difficulty finding them again online. Of course, Linux Libertine G is free, as we've discussed at length. The free OFL Sorts Mill Goudy is an excellent approximation of Goudy Old Style Minion Pro is a font that comes bundled with Adobe Reader. It's an excellent OpenType font full of expert glyphs. However, I've never quite come to grips with how it works on a Windows machine. When Reader is installed, Minion Pro is installed within the Adobe Reader folder, so that the font is only available for files opened with Reader. I've seen nothing in Adobe's licensing materials that clarify whether the user may copy the font into the Windows\Fonts folder for use with the entire system. While I've never paid for fonts, many years ago, I purchased WordPerfect 7. it was a great deal; $29.95 with a $30.00 rebate. While I have long since abandoned the program, it came bundled with hundreds of fonts, mostly by Bitstream. Some of my favorites, which I still use, are: Iowan Old Style Matt Antique BT New Baskerville BT Century Schoolbook BT Virgil -Original Message- From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 11:07 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation For me, I try to stay away from fonts that require me to pay for them. If it came with an OS, that is one thing, but if I have to pay for them myself for each and every style, like you do with Adobe's fonts, than no thanks. I do have an older Adobe font library, since I was given it to deal with a large, long, project over 10 years ago. You can get free versions of your fonts, or very good look-a-likes, online at various sites. I have used Schoolbook and Garamond before though. I believe Minion is an Adobe font. I will have to check about Goudy Old Style. I think I have used it before. Were you talking about Times Roman or just Roman for the font name. I have a font that is called Roman, and it is a serif font. For those who do not know much about fonts, all of this may be a little confusing to them. Well, if you have a large font collection, it gets worse some times. That is why I believe that the sites that give you good substitution font options for ones that you do not have can be a good thing for people. As I stated before, if you are going to have something published, find out which font[s] they use and then give then your document/manuscript in that font, if they do not want a plain text file. I have not worked on this for over a year, but here is a sample from my work in progress 50+ page font substitution guide. I have a lot of formatting and editing to do before I go out and find more. I even have a list that tells you which Windows installed fonts match Mac installed fonts, but that was created many years ago and no longer up-to-date. The first name is the font and the list is replacement types. I get this information from various online sources, so I do not really know how good they are. In the document, it is in 2 columns, but sometimes emails mes that up. Many of the font names I never heard of, while others I have. Americana Amherst American Classic Aston Colonial Concord Flareserif 721 Freedom Independence --- Antique Olive Incised 901 BT Provence BT Alphavanti Berry Roman Gibson Antique Oliva Olivanti Olive Antique Oliver Olivette Olivette Antique Olivia Baskerville New Baskerville Baskenland Baskerline Basque Beaumont Transitional 401 Copperplate Alexei Campaign -- Copperplate Gothic Copper Pot Atalante Gothic No.29 Gothic No.30 Lining Plate Gothic Mimosa Spartan - Corolla Aster Albany Astro Aztec Dutch 823 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 11 September 2013 12:52, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
Keep in mind that the typography toolbar is a graphical user interface
option for gaining access to the features. I've found that, sometimes, it
doesn't work as well as actually inserting the codes into the font name.
I discovered that whilst playing with it.
For example, I have the following in the font box of my Default Style
(without the quotation marks).
Linux Libertine G:onum=1itlc=2lith=0ss05=1ss04=1dash=1hang=1
That is similar to what I want it to do for me. But I can't seem to
get the italic function to work. I've tried making the value 0, 1, and
2, and can see absolutely no difference, even when using the example
in the help page ('a ileaf/i louse').
I'm using Ubuntu 13.04 with Cinnamon 1.8.8 (no Unity for me!) and LO
4.0.2.2. I'm using Linux Libertine G. The only two extensions
installed are 'Presentation Minimizer 1.0.4' (default) and 'Typography
toolbar 0.5'. Does something else have to be installed?
These codes do the following:
onum=1 (Turn on Old Style Numbering)
itlc=2 (Adjust the spacing around italics text) Without this, the italics
text gets jammed up next to the adjacent Roman text.
lith=0 (Don't use a Th ligature) I just don't like the Th ligature.
ss05=1 (Turn on old style upper case W, like that found in Garamond.
Wikipedia uses Linux Libertine G for its logo. Check it out)
ss04=1 (Use fancier ampersands)
dash=1 (Replace hyphens with n-dashes *while typing* and after hitting the
space bar after the hyphen)
hang=1 (Hanging punctuation. A really neat feature when using justified
margins)
I find this a more effective way of applying the features, instead of using
the toolbar, especially for style-wide features. Only if I want to apply
direct formatting to a small selection of text do I use the typography
toolbar.
I agree.
One thing that would really improve the toolbar would be shading to
indicate which options are selected. As it is now, the best way to
determine selected options is to look at the Font Selector and read
what is there.
--
T. R. Valentine
A rich heart may be under a poor coat.
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/10/2013 11:43 PM, John Jason Jordan wrote: On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:32:48 -0400 doug dijo: Whatever is the wonderful one, I'll try it and see if is appeals to me over just everyday Times-Roman. I have LO 3.5.7.2 on a recent fresh install and up to date Xubuntu 12.04. I have done a lot of DTP since I bought my first computer in 1978, recently mostly with Scribus, but occasionally I use LO. I was very interested in this discussion of the Linux Libertine font and its amazing abilities with the typography toolbar extension. I downloaded and installed Linux Libertine from the Ubuntu repos, and also installed the typography toolbar 1.1. The font appears fine and the toolbar appears as I think it is supposed to. But there is a problem. I opened an unimportant LO file to experiment with, selected some text that had a number in it, applied Linux Libertine font, then clicked on the old style numerals button in the toolbar. Nothing happened. I repeated this with ligatures, tried true small caps, and various other features of the toolbar, but the text flickered for an instant and no changes were made. Of course I closed LO and restarted it, but still nada. I am guessing there is some fundamental setting somewhere that must be turned on for this to work. Anyone have any clues? Did you download Linux Libertine G? There are different versions of the Libertine font. Some have an O at the end and others have a G. The G stands for Graphite and they are the only ones that have access to the expert glyphs. It doesn't work with the Libertine O flavor. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Kracked_P_P wrote: [snip] First - - - Everyone has their own opinion of which font is the most wonderful one that they have used. Second - - - There are a few ideas on what a book font is, but for me a book font is one that is really easy to read for extended periods, like in a hardcover novel or paperback. Third - - - Times-Roman - Times is the generic font name. Many fonts started from the generic Times look. Roman is actually a type of style for the most part. Some equate Roman as the same as normal or un-styled. Times-Roman is a classic font that is used by many computer systems as the original default font. There are other Times fonts, including Times, Times New Roman Times Europa, Old Times, just to name a few that I have seen or have in my font collection. If you really want to see how many Times fonts there are, or which fonts came from Times, then go to the Wiki page and you may be surprised. I do not remember which version of Times is part of the MS core fonts that is installed with Windows, or installed in Linux with the ttf-mscorefonts-installer package. Forth - - - To be honest, many fonts have one file for each style. One for Bold, for Italic, Bold Italic, etc., etc.. For LinLibertine: _R - regular _RI - italic _RB - bold _RZ - semi-bold _RZI - semi-bold italic _aBL - bold slanted Each of the files are a different style for the font. For LinLibertine, I have 16 different styles LinLibertine and LinLibertine G are two different fonts. I have only 6 for G so far. This is just the nature of the font file world. If you have a font with different styles, either you have that style file installed OR you must have a software package that takes a font and generates the style you need internally. There are some complex fonts that have more than one style in a single file, but sometimes they are not the easiest to find and sometimes not easy for a package to use properly. Great response. I can't add much except a bit of history about the Times font. It was originally commissioned by the Times of London newspaper, which wanted a typeface having strength of line and economy of space. It runs a little small for its nominal size and is somewhat condensed left to right, meaning its letters are narrower than those found in other fonts. To see the difference, type a line in 12 point Times and then the same line directly below it in something like 12 point Palatino, or Century, or Bookman. The second line will look enormous compared to the Times. The United States Supreme Court requires court briefs to be written in an 11 point Roman font. It warns lawyers that if they submit a brief in 11 point Times, the brief will be rejected because 11 point Times is actually smaller than 11 points. The flavor of Times that comes with MS Windows is Times New Roman. You will rarely see books printed in Times, the reason being it is intended for short bursts of reading, as in a newspaper article. Books tend to use fonts that are fuller and not condensed. Popular choices are Palatino, Century Schoolbook, Garamond, Minion, and Goudy Old Style. Lastly, in addition to the font files (TTF) in Doug's list of files, the files having a Tex extension are probably some form of TeX/LaTeX document. I don't believe they would be fonts. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 07:34:15 -0400 Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com dijo: On 09/10/2013 11:43 PM, John Jason Jordan wrote: On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:32:48 -0400 doug dijo: I downloaded and installed Linux Libertine from the Ubuntu repos, and also installed the typography toolbar 1.1. The font appears fine and the toolbar appears as I think it is supposed to. But there is a problem. I opened an unimportant LO file to experiment with, selected some text that had a number in it, applied Linux Libertine font, then clicked on the old style numerals button in the toolbar. Nothing happened. I repeated this with ligatures, tried true small caps, and various other features of the toolbar, but the text flickered for an instant and no changes were made. Did you download Linux Libertine G? There are different versions of the Libertine font. Some have an O at the end and others have a G. The G stands for Graphite and they are the only ones that have access to the expert glyphs. It doesn't work with the Libertine O flavor. That was the problem. The version in the Ubuntu repos was not the G version. Thanks for pointing that out. However, not all of the features are working, or maybe I don't understand how to use them. All ligature styles, small caps, old style numerals and fractions are working. But the fancy No. and the 1st options do nothing. And the superscript and subscript options don't work either, nor do the slashed zero or minus sign, and the en-dash correction just adds a space after a hyphen instead of converting it to an en-dash with spaces. I'm also curious why this works only with the LinuxLibertineG fonts. Adobe InDesign had these features 14 years ago, and they have always worked with any OTF font installed on the computer, assuming the font has the required glyphs properly encoded with the correct Unicode values. I need to read up more on exactly what Graphite is. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
John Jason Jordan wrote: I'm also curious why this works only with the LinuxLibertineG fonts. Adobe InDesign had these features 14 years ago, and they have always worked with any OTF font installed on the computer . . . The reason is that Graphite and Opentype (OTF) are rival formats for providing advanced typographic features. Graphite (in my opinion) is a dead end. It was created by and is promoted by the Summer Institute of Linguistics, which offers four or five fonts in this format. Philipp Poll has created two Graphite fonts (Linux Libertine and Biolinum). That is the total stock of Graphite fonts on the planet. It seems exceedingly unlikely that there will ever be any more, mainly because it is so difficult to create them. Opentype was promoted by Adobe and Microsoft but is now the subject of a formal international standard (under a slightly different name, Open Font Format). There are thousands of Opentype fonts, and the number is being constantly added to, not only because Opentype features are implemented in Adobe Indesign and Quark Xpress but also because it is relatively easy to create Opentype fonts, or to add Opentype features to existing fonts. Of course the immediate problem for users of Libre Office is that it does not implement Opentype layout features––one of the biggest shortcomings of the program. When it will do so is anyone’s guess. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Hi :) Perhaps it needs to have the Experimental features enabled? I'm not sure there even still is an option like that but i never knew quite what it did. I think something to do with macros and other things that are not relevant to this thread but i'm not sure if it did anything for Extensions, fonts or layouts. Regards from Tom :) From: John Jason Jordan joh...@comcast.net To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Wednesday, 11 September 2013, 4:43 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:32:48 -0400 doug dijo: Whatever is the wonderful one, I'll try it and see if is appeals to me over just everyday Times-Roman. I have LO 3.5.7.2 on a recent fresh install and up to date Xubuntu 12.04. I have done a lot of DTP since I bought my first computer in 1978, recently mostly with Scribus, but occasionally I use LO. I was very interested in this discussion of the Linux Libertine font and its amazing abilities with the typography toolbar extension. I downloaded and installed Linux Libertine from the Ubuntu repos, and also installed the typography toolbar 1.1. The font appears fine and the toolbar appears as I think it is supposed to. But there is a problem. I opened an unimportant LO file to experiment with, selected some text that had a number in it, applied Linux Libertine font, then clicked on the old style numerals button in the toolbar. Nothing happened. I repeated this with ligatures, tried true small caps, and various other features of the toolbar, but the text flickered for an instant and no changes were made. Of course I closed LO and restarted it, but still nada. I am guessing there is some fundamental setting somewhere that must be turned on for this to work. Anyone have any clues? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/11/2013 01:10 PM, Séamas Ó Brógáin wrote: John Jason Jordan wrote: I'm also curious why this works only with the LinuxLibertineG fonts. Adobe InDesign had these features 14 years ago, and they have always worked with any OTF font installed on the computer . . . The reason is that Graphite and Opentype (OTF) are rival formats for providing advanced typographic features. Graphite (in my opinion) is a dead end. It was created by and is promoted by the Summer Institute of Linguistics, which offers four or five fonts in this format. Philipp Poll has created two Graphite fonts (Linux Libertine and Biolinum). That is the total stock of Graphite fonts on the planet. It seems exceedingly unlikely that there will ever be any more, mainly because it is so difficult to create them. Opentype was promoted by Adobe and Microsoft but is now the subject of a formal international standard (under a slightly different name, Open Font Format). There are thousands of Opentype fonts, and the number is being constantly added to, not only because Opentype features are implemented in Adobe Indesign and Quark Xpress but also because it is relatively easy to create Opentype fonts, or to add Opentype features to existing fonts. Of course the immediate problem for users of Libre Office is that it does not implement Opentype layout features––one of the biggest shortcomings of the program. When it will do so is anyone’s guess. I agree that I would much prefer to access the expert features of OpenType fonts, but LO doesn't do it. Linux Libertine G is an excellent stopgap until such a time as LO gains full access to OTF. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Wednesday 11 September 2013 10:52:42 AM Virgil Arrington wrote: These codes do the following: onum=1 (Turn on Old Style Numbering) itlc=2 (Adjust the spacing around italics text) Without this, the italics text gets jammed up next to the adjacent Roman text. lith=0 (Don't use a Th ligature) I just don't like the Th ligature. ss05=1 (Turn on old style upper case W, like that found in Garamond. Wikipedia uses Linux Libertine G for its logo. Check it out) ss04=1 (Use fancier ampersands)codes dash=1 (Replace hyphens with n-dashes *while typing* and after hitting the space bar after the hyphen) hang=1 (Hanging punctuation. A really neat feature when using justified margins) Does anyone have a complete list of these codes? I haven't been able to find one after a search in obvious places such as the Libertine site. Thanks, -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/11/2013 02:40 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote: On Wednesday 11 September 2013 10:52:42 AM Virgil Arrington wrote: These codes do the following: onum=1 (Turn on Old Style Numbering) itlc=2 (Adjust the spacing around italics text) Without this, the italics text gets jammed up next to the adjacent Roman text. lith=0 (Don't use a Th ligature) I just don't like the Th ligature. ss05=1 (Turn on old style upper case W, like that found in Garamond. Wikipedia uses Linux Libertine G for its logo. Check it out) ss04=1 (Use fancier ampersands)codes dash=1 (Replace hyphens with n-dashes *while typing* and after hitting the space bar after the hyphen) hang=1 (Hanging punctuation. A really neat feature when using justified margins) Does anyone have a complete list of these codes? I haven't been able to find one after a search in obvious places such as the Libertine site. Thanks, -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/ They are at http://www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf If you click on the Help button on the typography toolbar, it automatically takes to to this website. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/11/2013 12:31 PM, John Jason Jordan wrote: That was the problem. The version in the Ubuntu repos was not the G version. Thanks for pointing that out. However, not all of the features are working, or maybe I don't understand how to use them. All ligature styles, small caps, old style numerals and fractions are working. But the fancy No. and the 1st options do nothing. And the superscript and subscript options don't work either, nor do the slashed zero or minus sign, and the en-dash correction just adds a space after a hyphen instead of converting it to an en-dash with spaces. I'm also curious why this works only with the LinuxLibertineG fonts. Adobe InDesign had these features 14 years ago, and they have always worked with any OTF font installed on the computer, assuming the font has the required glyphs properly encoded with the correct Unicode values. I need to read up more on exactly what Graphite is. I know that over the years, some features haven't worked with LO and OO. As time has gone by, more and more features have worked. I, too, have had problems with the ordinal numbers features, but regular superscripts work for me as do en-dashes. Keep in mind that the typography toolbar is a graphical user interface option for gaining access to the features. I've found that, sometimes, it doesn't work as well as actually inserting the codes into the font name. For example, I have the following in the font box of my Default Style (without the quotation marks). Linux Libertine G:onum=1itlc=2lith=0ss05=1ss04=1dash=1hang=1 These codes do the following: onum=1 (Turn on Old Style Numbering) itlc=2 (Adjust the spacing around italics text) Without this, the italics text gets jammed up next to the adjacent Roman text. lith=0 (Don't use a Th ligature) I just don't like the Th ligature. ss05=1 (Turn on old style upper case W, like that found in Garamond. Wikipedia uses Linux Libertine G for its logo. Check it out) ss04=1 (Use fancier ampersands) dash=1 (Replace hyphens with n-dashes *while typing* and after hitting the space bar after the hyphen) hang=1 (Hanging punctuation. A really neat feature when using justified margins) I find this a more effective way of applying the features, instead of using the toolbar, especially for style-wide features. Only if I want to apply direct formatting to a small selection of text do I use the typography toolbar. As to comparing this to Adobe InDesign, that program is simply accessing the advanced features found in *some* OpenType fonts (OTF). Not all OTF have all the features, but if they have them, InDesign can access them, while LO cannot. As I understand it, Libertine G was designed for use with Graphite, which is an alternative technology to OTF. Also be careful about mixing methods. For example, if you want to apply small caps to Libertine G, do *not* select small caps in the LO Font dialog box. Doing so will generate the fake generated small caps that are too light. To get to Libertine's small caps, either select it from the typography toolbar, or enter smcp=1 in the font name as in Linux Libertine G:smcp=1 It all takes some practice to get used to it, but keep at it. It's worth it. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 9 September 2013 06:57, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote: However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) I was already familiar with these fonts. But Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf ... I was unaware of this possibility or ... The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo ... this really neat tool! Many, many thanks for bringing it to my attention, Virgil. (I stayed up way too late last night experimenting with it!) I think this tool should be built into LO. It is a lot more useful than some of the extensions which are already automatically included. -- T. R. Valentine A rich heart may be under a poor coat. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Glad to be of help. As someone else noted, there is a more updated Typography Toolbar at the LO extension website. The link I previously gave was to an older version. The newer version can be found at: http://extensions.libreoffice.org/extension-center/typography-toolbar LO and Linux Libertine G have really gelled nicely together. Virgil -Original Message- From: T. R. Valentine Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 11:21 AM To: LibreOffice-list Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation On 9 September 2013 06:57, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote: However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) I was already familiar with these fonts. But Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf ... I was unaware of this possibility or ... The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo ... this really neat tool! Many, many thanks for bringing it to my attention, Virgil. (I stayed up way too late last night experimenting with it!) I think this tool should be built into LO. It is a lot more useful than some of the extensions which are already automatically included. -- T. R. Valentine A rich heart may be under a poor coat. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 9/10/2013 7:52 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/09/2013 07:45 PM, Doug wrote: On 09/09/2013 06:04 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/09/2013 02:49 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: [snip, snip] This is where Linux Libertine G comes in. Although it is modeled after Times, it's not quite as condensed, so it works better for longer documents. But, with LO, one has access to all sorts of expert effects, making it a full featured typeface. While I might prefer a different font, I'd rather use Libertine to full effect than a less complete Garamond. Another excellent free typeface is OFL Sorts Mill Goudy. It uses old style numbering by default. But, it lacks a boldface font. www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/sorts-mill-goudy Virgil I haven't followed this thread closely, but I need a little more information on the Linux libertine font. Here's what I find on my PCLINUXOS distro using filefinder for *libertine* : file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RZ_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RI_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RBI_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RZI_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_R_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RB_G.ttf file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_kp.tex file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_palatino.tex file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_times.tex file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex4ht/ht-fonts/alias/libertine file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex4ht/ht-fonts/unicode/libertine file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.mkii file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.mkiv file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.tex --doug Doug, Can you be a little more specific about what information you need? Virgil What are all these fonts? From reading the thread, I got the impression that there was just *one* libertine font. What is the one like Goudy? (sp?) What is the one that looks like Times? I don't even know what the various book fonts are. Libertine was supposed to be such a wonderful thing--well which one is the wonderful one? Which one comes closest to the font that most modern fiction is published in? (Whatever that's called.) Is there a tutorial about these wonderful fonts someplace? Whatever is the wonderful one, I'll try it and see if is appeals to me over just everyday Times-Roman. Thanx--doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:32:48 -0400 doug dijo: Whatever is the wonderful one, I'll try it and see if is appeals to me over just everyday Times-Roman. I have LO 3.5.7.2 on a recent fresh install and up to date Xubuntu 12.04. I have done a lot of DTP since I bought my first computer in 1978, recently mostly with Scribus, but occasionally I use LO. I was very interested in this discussion of the Linux Libertine font and its amazing abilities with the typography toolbar extension. I downloaded and installed Linux Libertine from the Ubuntu repos, and also installed the typography toolbar 1.1. The font appears fine and the toolbar appears as I think it is supposed to. But there is a problem. I opened an unimportant LO file to experiment with, selected some text that had a number in it, applied Linux Libertine font, then clicked on the old style numerals button in the toolbar. Nothing happened. I repeated this with ligatures, tried true small caps, and various other features of the toolbar, but the text flickered for an instant and no changes were made. Of course I closed LO and restarted it, but still nada. I am guessing there is some fundamental setting somewhere that must be turned on for this to work. Anyone have any clues? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Jonathan wrote, I think the avoidance of true small caps and old style numbering has more to do with the practice of font creators, most of whom omit these features. That might be true for FLOSS font creators. It is not true for the foundries whose fonts are in the 4+ digit price range. Actually, some standard OpenType fonts come with some expert glyphs standard. For example, Palatino Linotype is a standard Windows font, free with the OS. It includes true small caps and old style numbering in the standard font. Problem is, most programs, LO included, can't access these effects. Last I checked, Word can access the old style numbers, but not the true small caps. Adobe InDesign (at mucho bucks) can access them all. One of the advantages of Tex/LaTeX/XeTeX is its ability to access expert glyphs of various fonts. However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/13 12:57, Virgil Arrington wrote: [cut] However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo This looks very useful, but I note that it hasn't been updated since 2010 and OOo (LO?) 3.4. Is it known to function with LO 4.1? Peter HB -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/2013 10:57 AM, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: On 09/09/13 12:57, Virgil Arrington wrote: [cut] However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo This looks very useful, but I note that it hasn't been updated since 2010 and OOo (LO?) 3.4. Is it known to function with LO 4.1? Peter HB I'll speak from some level of technological ignorance. I think the font itself has not been updated in a while, but, what makes the font work with LO and AOO is the Graphite engine. This is where I get real ignorant, but I've found that as LO and AOO are upgraded, they work better with the Linux Libertine G fonts. For example, there is a switch in the font (itlc=2), which provides proper alignment of Italic text next to Roman text. You'll notice that the fontfeatures.pdf website says this switch doesn't work with LO 3.4. That is true; it doesn't. And, up to last week, it didn't work for me with LO 3.6.7. However, I upgraded to LO 4.0.5 and, voila, the switch works. Also, in prior versions of LO, Linux Libertine seemed to cause some crashes, but I haven't experienced a crash since LO 3.6. I don't think this is due to changes in the font, but rather improvements in LO itself. (I won't upgrade to LO 4.1.x until x becomes 5 or higher). Perhaps someone else with knowledge about how LO and Graphite work together can chime in. I just know that every successive version of LO works better with the Libertine G and Biolinium G fonts, much to my delight. It has become my default LO font for both my Windows and Linux partitions on my dual boot system. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/2013 11:52 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/09/2013 10:57 AM, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: On 09/09/13 12:57, Virgil Arrington wrote: [cut] However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo This looks very useful, but I note that it hasn't been updated since 2010 and OOo (LO?) 3.4. Is it known to function with LO 4.1? Peter HB I'll speak from some level of technological ignorance. I think the font itself has not been updated in a while, but, what makes the font work with LO and AOO is the Graphite engine. This is where I get real ignorant, but I've found that as LO and AOO are upgraded, they work better with the Linux Libertine G fonts. For example, there is a switch in the font (itlc=2), which provides proper alignment of Italic text next to Roman text. You'll notice that the fontfeatures.pdf website says this switch doesn't work with LO 3.4. That is true; it doesn't. And, up to last week, it didn't work for me with LO 3.6.7. However, I upgraded to LO 4.0.5 and, voila, the switch works. Also, in prior versions of LO, Linux Libertine seemed to cause some crashes, but I haven't experienced a crash since LO 3.6. I don't think this is due to changes in the font, but rather improvements in LO itself. (I won't upgrade to LO 4.1.x until x becomes 5 or higher). Perhaps someone else with knowledge about how LO and Graphite work together can chime in. I just know that every successive version of LO works better with the Libertine G and Biolinium G fonts, much to my delight. It has become my default LO font for both my Windows and Linux partitions on my dual boot system. Virgil I am a font person, and do not use the Libertine and Biolinium fonts often. But I agree with your statement that each version of LO is displaying and printing better than the last one, some some people. The graphics engine that renders the fonts is improving. I too use LO for both my Linux and Windows systems. I have not installed any non-trial version of MSO since MSO2003. As a font person, I use a lot of specialty fonts over the years. So the better the package works with fonts, the better it is for me. I use to have to take some fonts and change them to JPG files just to use them in document. Now that is almost a thing of the past, depending how complex the font actually is. As for not using those two font families, well, I have over 14 GB of fonts in my font collection and I try to stay below 400 installed fonts at any time. We are talking about 40 font files for the two, if you included all of different styles. So I am not installing most of them right now. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/2013 02:49 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: [snip, snip] I am a font person, and do not use the Libertine and Biolinium fonts often. But I agree with your statement that each version of LO is displaying and printing better than the last one, some some people. The graphics engine that renders the fonts is improving. I too use LO for both my Linux and Windows systems. I have not installed any non-trial version of MSO since MSO2003. As a font person, I use a lot of specialty fonts over the years. So the better the package works with fonts, the better it is for me. I use to have to take some fonts and change them to JPG files just to use them in document. Now that is almost a thing of the past, depending how complex the font actually is. As for not using those two font families, well, I have over 14 GB of fonts in my font collection and I try to stay below 400 installed fonts at any time. We are talking about 40 font files for the two, if you included all of different styles. So I am not installing most of them right now. While I love playing with fonts, I'm mostly interested in good book style fonts, time-proven classics like Garamond, Goudy Old Style, or Century Schoolbook. While Times New Roman is the most ubiquitous, at least in the Windows world, it's condensed nature doesn't lend itself to long-term comfortable reading. That said, Robert Bringhurst, in his book, The Elements of Typographic Style, says it's better to use a font like Times if you have all the expert effects, than to use a better font without them. This is where Linux Libertine G comes in. Although it is modeled after Times, it's not quite as condensed, so it works better for longer documents. But, with LO, one has access to all sorts of expert effects, making it a full featured typeface. While I might prefer a different font, I'd rather use Libertine to full effect than a less complete Garamond. Another excellent free typeface is OFL Sorts Mill Goudy. It uses old style numbering by default. But, it lacks a boldface font. www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/sorts-mill-goudy Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/13 19:49, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: On 09/09/2013 11:52 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/09/2013 10:57 AM, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: On 09/09/13 12:57, Virgil Arrington wrote: [cut] However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo This looks very useful, but I note that it hasn't been updated since 2010 and OOo (LO?) 3.4. Is it known to function with LO 4.1? [cut] I seem to have been misunderstood. My query referred to the Typography Toolbar extension and a little searching found the current version for LO 4.x. Sorry for the noise. Peter HB -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/2013 05:59 PM, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: On 09/09/13 19:49, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: On 09/09/2013 11:52 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/09/2013 10:57 AM, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: On 09/09/13 12:57, Virgil Arrington wrote: [cut] However, LO has one wonderful advantage. The free font, Linux Libertine G, has many expert effects, and LO can access them all. It's an excellent typeface, and so far, the latest LO stable version, 4.0.5, seems to work very well with it. (Despite its Linux name, the font works just as well in Windows.) http://www.numbertext.org/linux/ (Libertine has an equally excellent companion sans-serif font, Linux Bolinium G) Using the advanced features requires adding extensions to the font name, such as Linux Libertine G:onum=1 to use old style numbers. Various extensions are separated by the ampersand (). It can be a little cumbersome at first, but there is an excellent guide at: www.numbertext.org/linux/fontfeatures.pdf The Typography Toolbar extension makes its use easier. http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/typo This looks very useful, but I note that it hasn't been updated since 2010 and OOo (LO?) 3.4. Is it known to function with LO 4.1? [cut] I seem to have been misunderstood. My query referred to the Typography Toolbar extension and a little searching found the current version for LO 4.x. Sorry for the noise. Peter HB Sorry for the confusion. The Typography Toolbar itself is simply a graphic way of accessing the expert features of Linux Libertine G. I rarely use it as I control everything through styles and simply type in the features I want in the font name box. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/2013 06:04 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/09/2013 02:49 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: [snip, snip] This is where Linux Libertine G comes in. Although it is modeled after Times, it's not quite as condensed, so it works better for longer documents. But, with LO, one has access to all sorts of expert effects, making it a full featured typeface. While I might prefer a different font, I'd rather use Libertine to full effect than a less complete Garamond. Another excellent free typeface is OFL Sorts Mill Goudy. It uses old style numbering by default. But, it lacks a boldface font. www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/sorts-mill-goudy Virgil I haven't followed this thread closely, but I need a little more information on the Linux libertine font. Here's what I find on my PCLINUXOS distro using filefinder for *libertine* : file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RZ_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RI_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RBI_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RZI_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_R_G.ttf file:///opt/libreoffice3.6/share/fonts/truetype/LinLibertine_RB_G.ttf file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_kp.tex file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_palatino.tex file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/plain/font-change/font_libertine_times.tex file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex4ht/ht-fonts/alias/libertine file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex4ht/ht-fonts/unicode/libertine file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.mkii file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.mkiv file:///usr/share/texmf-dist/tex/context/third/typescripts/type-linuxlibertine.tex --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/09/2013 06:04 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/09/2013 02:49 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: [snip, snip] I am a font person, and do not use the Libertine and Biolinium fonts often. But I agree with your statement that each version of LO is displaying and printing better than the last one, some some people. The graphics engine that renders the fonts is improving. I too use LO for both my Linux and Windows systems. I have not installed any non-trial version of MSO since MSO2003. As a font person, I use a lot of specialty fonts over the years. So the better the package works with fonts, the better it is for me. I use to have to take some fonts and change them to JPG files just to use them in document. Now that is almost a thing of the past, depending how complex the font actually is. As for not using those two font families, well, I have over 14 GB of fonts in my font collection and I try to stay below 400 installed fonts at any time. We are talking about 40 font files for the two, if you included all of different styles. So I am not installing most of them right now. While I love playing with fonts, I'm mostly interested in good book style fonts, time-proven classics like Garamond, Goudy Old Style, or Century Schoolbook. While Times New Roman is the most ubiquitous, at least in the Windows world, it's condensed nature doesn't lend itself to long-term comfortable reading. That said, Robert Bringhurst, in his book, The Elements of Typographic Style, says it's better to use a font like Times if you have all the expert effects, than to use a better font without them. This is where Linux Libertine G comes in. Although it is modeled after Times, it's not quite as condensed, so it works better for longer documents. But, with LO, one has access to all sorts of expert effects, making it a full featured typeface. While I might prefer a different font, I'd rather use Libertine to full effect than a less complete Garamond. Another excellent free typeface is OFL Sorts Mill Goudy. It uses old style numbering by default. But, it lacks a boldface font. www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/sorts-mill-goudy Virgil The big thing about having a very large collection of fonts, is you can from time to time find one that works better for a job than than the one you used before. Also, if you need to use a specific font for a document/project, you either have it or can find one that will work 99% as well. It has been a long time since I did any real comparison between fonts, serif to serif, sans to sans, etc., but there are sites out there with list of alternative fonts. I usually have one of these alternatives. I also have a full Adobe font library from the mid-to-late 2000's. I jeep the Type-One fonts in a compressed folder and only keep the TTF and OTF ones to compare to from time to time. I have downloaded a few of the The League Of. . . fonts before, any I believe I have that Goudy one as well. I do not want to go looking for it right now. I am not actively adding to me collection anymore, except for some really specialty fonts Tom Davis [on these lists] can tell you about some of them. Things like letters made up of bones for Halloween and other interestingly designed ones for the other holidays in the USA. If you love trains, I have a collection of train related fonts as well. BUT, for the most part, 80% of the Serif fonts looks a lot like a large number of other Serif ones. The same goes for San-Serif. When you get down to it, there are some good free fonts out there that are 99% similar to paid ones. I prefer to use free ones. I use the MS-Core fonts that are included with most Linux installs, when dealing with MS Office people and their documents. They seem to prefer that for some reason. . . One day, I will start going through my fonts and start comparing them again. But that is a long long process. I hope to find a comprehensive font comparison site one of these days so I do not need to do all this by hand. As for book fonts and such, as my book editor friend tells me, if the publisher prefers to publish the books in a certain font family, then you use that font family for your documents. They should have spent a lot of time and money deciding which fonts work with which type of books and content. So I will not challenge their efforts. For myself, if I decide to, I will take a paragraph to a page worth of text and print it out with various font types and styles to see which one works best for me and those I show the pages to. My idea of easy reading might not be others, with Dyslexia and 3 strokes to muddle my brain with. Actually there are some specific fonts created for people like me [with my brain issues] for easier reading that the standard book fonts. As for books about fonts and typography, well I have only one and that was printed when word processing was in its early stages and there was not many fonts to choose from.
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
At 12:49 07/09/2013 -0700, John Jason Jordan wrote: In Writer, FrameMaker and the TeX family, a document consists of a continuous stream of text. If you insert additional text at the beginning, all the text moves down, including the creation of new pages at the end if necessary. The other applications I mentioned are page layout applications. In a page layout application each page is a container. Everything that goes on a page goes into a graphics or a text frame. The frames never automatically move, regardless of how much stuff you add stuff to them. For text to flow from one page to the next there must be successive frames on the pages and the frames must be linked. You can drag frames around, create new ones, change the size and shape, but a frame always stays precisely where you put it on a page. You can link text frames that are pages apart - think of a magazine where a story begins toward the front of the magazine, runs for a couple of pages, and then you see continued on page x. Writer won't do everything, but you appear not to realise what it can do. Writer has frames, which can indeed be anchored to pages, and have the sort of properties you describe. It also allows linked frames. The only restriction appears to be that linked frames must be in the same section. Try it! (See frames;linking in the help text.) Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 09:36:29 +0100 Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com dijo: Writer won't do everything, but you appear not to realise what it can do. Writer has frames, which can indeed be anchored to pages, and have the sort of properties you describe. It also allows linked frames. The only restriction appears to be that linked frames must be in the same section. Try it! (See frames;linking in the help text.) Of course I was aware that Writer has frames that can be linked. Do you use writer to lay out a magazine? Do you recommend that I do so? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
At 07:23 08/09/2013 -0700, John Jason Jordan wrote: Of course I was aware that Writer has frames that can be linked. How strange, then, that you should suggest otherwise in your message! (None of us can read your mind, of course.) Do you use writer to lay out a magazine? Do you recommend that I do so? Wow! Did you read either of those claims in my message? Or are you hoping no-one would notice your straw man? Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Hi :) I think John was trying to describe Framemaker and how it differs from Writer. While Writer can use frames it is not the default way of using it. Normally people just type straight into a document. I think John is saying that Framemaker doesn't let people type in outside of frames. In some ways frames force greater control but that level of control makes things less fluid and flexible. So while it's great for desktop publishing it makes it difficult for normal word-processing. Regards from Tom :) From: Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 8 September 2013, 15:39 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation At 07:23 08/09/2013 -0700, John Jason Jordan wrote: Of course I was aware that Writer has frames that can be linked. How strange, then, that you should suggest otherwise in your message! (None of us can read your mind, of course.) Do you use writer to lay out a magazine? Do you recommend that I do so? Wow! Did you read either of those claims in my message? Or are you hoping no-one would notice your straw man? Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
At 16:08 08/09/2013 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: I think John was trying to describe Framemaker and how it differs from Writer. Unsurprisingly, I was commenting on what he said (not what someone else thinks he was trying to do) and thinking of its effect on his large audience on this list. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
If it helps, and I doubt it will, as a member of the larger audience, I fully understood what John was describing based on what he had written, which is exactly as Tom represented it. Virgil -Original Message- From: Brian Barker Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 11:44 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation At 16:08 08/09/2013 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: I think John was trying to describe Framemaker and how it differs from Writer. Unsurprisingly, I was commenting on what he said (not what someone else thinks he was trying to do) and thinking of its effect on his large audience on this list. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/07/2013 06:08 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote: No, they're not, actually. You don't find publishers using MS Word files, which are simply not up to the job. I don't know what publishers you are looking at, but all of the publishers whose submission guidelines I've read, have requested files in MS Doc file format. (FWIW, I've read over the submission guidelines of over 100 publishers in the last year.) I think the avoidance of true small caps and old style numbering has more to do with the practice of font creators, most of whom omit these features. That might be true for FLOSS font creators. It is not true for the foundries whose fonts are in the 4+ digit price range. jonathon -- LibreOffice in a Multi-Lingual Environment. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On 09/07/2013 06:08 PM, jonathon wrote: I don't know what publishers you are looking at, but all of the publishers whose submission guidelines I've read, have requested files in MS Doc file format. (FWIW, I've read over the submission guidelines of over 100 publishers in the last year.) You missed the context, which was the format publishers use for layout and which they asked contracted writers to submit in -- not the format they accept for submissions. I think the avoidance of true small caps and old style numbering has more to do with the practice of font creators, most of whom omit these features. That might be true for FLOSS font creators. It is not true for the foundries whose fonts are in the 4+ digit price range. That's a very rareified category of fonts. Look at Adobe and other popular foundries, and you'll find that including small caps and old style numbering are rare enough that, when a typeface does include them, they are major selling points. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
At 17:35 08/09/2013 -0400, Virgil Arrington wrote: If it helps, and I doubt it will, ... Ho, ho! You are so unsure of your own position? ... as a member of the larger audience, I fully understood what John was describing based on what he had written, ... As did we all, I'm sure. But what he wrote wasn't a fair comparison. ... which is exactly as Tom represented it. Well, he said I think John was trying to describe Framemaker and how it differs from Writer. (It happens that this was wrong anyway: the original claim contrasted Writer and Framemaker on the one hand against page layout applications on the other.) The original message put Writer in one group, in which a document consists of a continuous stream of text. If you insert additional text at the beginning, all the text moves down, including the creation of new pages at the end if necessary. No mention of frames. Then there was the other group of page layout software, in which each page is a container. Everything that goes on a page goes into a graphics or a text frame. Everything is frames. The impression was clearly given that Writer didn't do frames. The original poster has assured us he knows that Writer can handle frames, so what is left to discuss, please? My concern was not you - I'm confident you know the facts already! - or him, but the thousands of other list subscribers out there who could have been persuaded to believe that Writer wouldn't do linked frames. That would be a pity. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Ken, I'm about as anal as they come when it comes to fonts, and I've never really noticed much difference among the ones I use when it comes to white space around punctuation. I'll have to give them a closer look. As to legal papers, many lawyers do use full justification in their legal briefs, but I never do. I don't know of any court rules that actually require full justification in court papers, so it is usually a matter of personal taste. I've always lived by the rule that justification looks more professional on first glance, but left aligned text increases comprehension. Usually, justified text is generated by adding extra white space in between words, resulting in inconsistent word spacing from line to line. Sometimes it will result in distracting rivers of white space down the page. And, when justification widens word spacing, it only exacerbates the width of two spaces between sentences. LyX is a great program and it produces excellent results, especially with fonts having expert features such as old style numbering and true small caps. I've often used it myself, but I've found it works best when one accepts the LyX/LaTeX default settings. Changing the defaults can be somewhat challenging. Despite what I said above about justification, LyX/LaTeX does it extremely well, especially if you use the Microtype package. It makes microscopic adjustments not only between words, but *within* letters themselves to keep word spacing relatively consistent while reducing the need for hyphenated line endings. The result is stunning. But, for normal business or legal work, I find LyX much too cumbersome for my needs. I much prefer LO in this setting. Virgil -Original Message- From: Ken Springer Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 9:36 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation On 9/6/13 6:56 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: On 09/06/2013 05:20 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/5/13 9:23 AM, T. R. Valentine wrote: As a follow-up to our earlier discussion of one versus two spaces following a full point/full stop/period, I offer the following passage from /About Face: Reviving the Rules of Typography/ by David Jury (typos mine): snip sigh With the different ways people reply to this group, this discussion is all over the place when using gmane and a newsreader. :-( I think I've got all of these messages read, and it seems to me everyone has overlooked one thing, the font itself. What did the designer do with the individual characters and punctuation marks and whatever else may be in the font regarding white space in the glyph itself? It seems logical to me that's going to make a difference in whether the spacing after a period, for example, should be 1, 1.5, or 2 spaces. And maybe, you'll just have to do some manual kerning. Or... Am I missing something? Ken, I don't think you're missing anything, but most of us aren't using LO to prepare the *final* version of a document for professional publication (i.e., books, magazines, etc.). I would truly hope that a publishing house would do more than just take a word processing document and print it out in book format. (In fact, many professional writers use nothing more than Notepad, saying their publishers strip all user-inserted formatting anyway). So, if there's any manual kerning to be done, I would expect that to be done on a level far above LO. When I argue for one space instead of two, I'm thinking in terms of business letters, memos, legal briefs (I'm a lawyer) or scholastic papers (I also teach at our local university). These are the types of documents I prepare with LO, and when preparing them, I want to follow professional typographic standards as much as I can. Ergo, one space. But, manual kerning goes beyond what I think should be expected of anyone on this level of document preparation. Virgil, I understand wanting to follow best shop practices for printing. Which is why I'm just starting out on giving LyX a run for some things I want to write. But, even being that anal (LOL), it doesn't answer my questions about the design of the font itself, and the effect of the design, regardless of who does the final setup of the document. I kinda stayed out of the one space or two discussion, but if you look at this post, which has both your style (one space) and mine (two spaces), when it's a monospace font as I see this post I find the single space more difficult to read. Not terribly, but harder. :-) If if the font is proportional, I generally stumble at the beginning when reading a document of some kind that has single spaces at the end of the sentence until the brain adjusts. Too often, my brain interprets a single spacing at the end of a sentence as just one long, very long, run on sentence. :-) When I get the time, and have a reason to use LO again, I'm going to go into the autocorrect function and see if I can follow my own suggestion in another
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Bruce Byfield wrote: I know of several publishers who work directly from ODF files. With a couple of exceptions, Writer has most of the tools needed for a thoroughly professional design job, allegedly because when the original code was being written in the days of Star Division, they were told they would have to use what they wrote for documentation. The trick is to know what options to use, and which to ignore (topics that, if you forgive the shameless plug, I am currently grappling with the book I am writing with Jean Hollis Weber). For now, I'll just say that Writer is not a word processor so much as an intermediate desktop publishing program. You can actually substitute it very successfully for proprietary tools like FrameMaker. No doubt, many publishers are simply publishing the files sent to them that are created by word processors. And, sadly, the results are often quite apparent. I'm reading more and more books that are set without true small caps or old style numbering. Writers and publishers simply accept the faux small caps generated by their word processors by shrinking regular upper case letters complete with the corresponding weakening of the lines that come from the shrinking. Now, perhaps these are the options that you and Weber would recommend avoiding. (I look forward to hearing more about your book.) However, for me at least, LO's biggest limitation that disqualifies it for final publishable work is its justification method. It's line-by-line justification results in too many word space variations from line to line and too many hyphenated lines. As an experiment, just prepare the same document using LO and LaTeX (with the Microtype package). The difference in the justified lines will be quite obvious. To me, LO Writer is a business class word processor, and perhaps the best there is, but until it finds a more complete justification method, I don't think I qualifies for creating publishable output. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
Hi :) +1 On the rare occasion i have glanced through newspapers in the last few years i have noticed really bad kerning between words on different lines. I doubt LaTeX is really perfect either although it probably is a shed load better than Writer/Word. Getting the spacing right between words on different lines without leaving the end all raggedy takes craftsmanship (craftswomanship) and is more of an art than a science. Computers will never really understand the way human beans see things. They can only approximate. (If only you could see what your eyes have seen Bladerunner replicant to the chap that manufactured his eyeballs) The people who compare Writer to LaTeX seldom mention how well Word compares. People reading some of these posts, or quoting them in articles, might be under a false impression. The very fact that people are annoyed that Writer is not a perfect Desktop Publishing shows how much closer it is than Word. Word makes a complete mess of documents. If you tried listing the various nasty messes Word makes in an average document then it could take a looong time. That's why they have Publisher. Having used Publisher a fair bit, and Word and now Writer but not LaTeX i think output quality starts with Word as being the worst on the left Word . Publisher Writer ... LaTeX although maybe the gap between LaTeX and Writer is even closer than that? There might be some things Publisher does better and maybe i have only ever seen it being mis-handled but so far everything i have seen produced by people experienced (but not necessarily good with it) with Publisher has been done a lot better by a noob with Writer. Regards from Tom :) From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Saturday, 7 September 2013, 13:39 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation Bruce Byfield wrote: I know of several publishers who work directly from ODF files. With a couple of exceptions, Writer has most of the tools needed for a thoroughly professional design job, allegedly because when the original code was being written in the days of Star Division, they were told they would have to use what they wrote for documentation. The trick is to know what options to use, and which to ignore (topics that, if you forgive the shameless plug, I am currently grappling with the book I am writing with Jean Hollis Weber). For now, I'll just say that Writer is not a word processor so much as an intermediate desktop publishing program. You can actually substitute it very successfully for proprietary tools like FrameMaker. No doubt, many publishers are simply publishing the files sent to them that are created by word processors. And, sadly, the results are often quite apparent. I'm reading more and more books that are set without true small caps or old style numbering. Writers and publishers simply accept the faux small caps generated by their word processors by shrinking regular upper case letters complete with the corresponding weakening of the lines that come from the shrinking. Now, perhaps these are the options that you and Weber would recommend avoiding. (I look forward to hearing more about your book.) However, for me at least, LO's biggest limitation that disqualifies it for final publishable work is its justification method. It's line-by-line justification results in too many word space variations from line to line and too many hyphenated lines. As an experiment, just prepare the same document using LO and LaTeX (with the Microtype package). The difference in the justified lines will be quite obvious. To me, LO Writer is a business class word processor, and perhaps the best there is, but until it finds a more complete justification method, I don't think I qualifies for creating publishable output. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Friday 06 September 2013 10:47:49 PM John Jason Jordan wrote: On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 20:18:34 -0700 Bruce Byfield bbyfi...@axion.net dijo: For now, I'll just say that Writer is not a word processor so much as an intermediate desktop publishing program. You can actually substitute it very successfully for proprietary tools like FrameMaker. That is correct, but bear in mind that FrameMaker, like Writer or TeX, is not a page layout application like Scribus, InDesign, QuarkXPress or PageMaker, inter alia. FrameMaker is (or used to be) an industry-standard for producing printed material, such as technical manuals. It's a specialized tool, designed to produce text-oriented documents. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Saturday 07 September 2013 05:39:41 AM Virgil Arrington wrote: No doubt, many publishers are simply publishing the files sent to them that are created by word processors. L No, they're not, actually. You don't find publishers using MS Word files, which are simply not up to the job. I'm reading more and more books that are set without true small caps or old style numbering. Writers and publishers simply accept the faux small caps generated by their word processors by shrinking regular upper case letters complete with the corresponding weakening of the lines that come from the shrinking. I think the avoidance of true small caps and old style numbering has more to do with the practice of font creators, most of whom omit these features. However, for me at least, LO's biggest limitation that disqualifies it for final publishable work is its justification method. It's line-by-line justification results in too many word space variations from line to line and too many hyphenated lines. As an experiment, just prepare the same document using LO and LaTeX (with the Microtype package). The difference in the justified lines will be quite obvious. Any on-the-fly justification is going to be rough. Do you run Tools Language Hyphenation when doing finishing a document? I find that does a lot to improve any alignment, even ragged right. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 10:55:55 -0700 Bruce Byfield bbyfi...@axion.net dijo: On Friday 06 September 2013 10:47:49 PM John Jason Jordan wrote: On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 20:18:34 -0700 Bruce Byfield bbyfi...@axion.net dijo: For now, I'll just say that Writer is not a word processor so much as an intermediate desktop publishing program. You can actually substitute it very successfully for proprietary tools like FrameMaker. That is correct, but bear in mind that FrameMaker, like Writer or TeX, is not a page layout application like Scribus, InDesign, QuarkXPress or PageMaker, inter alia. FrameMaker is (or used to be) an industry-standard for producing printed material, such as technical manuals. It's a specialized tool, designed to produce text-oriented documents. Again, you are correct, but missed the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I should state it more clearly. In Writer, FrameMaker and the TeX family, a document consists of a continuous stream of text. If you insert additional text at the beginning, all the text moves down, including the creation of new pages at the end if necessary. The other applications I mentioned are page layout applications. In a page layout application each page is a container. Everything that goes on a page goes into a graphics or a text frame. The frames never automatically move, regardless of how much stuff you add stuff to them. For text to flow from one page to the next there must be successive frames on the pages and the frames must be linked. You can drag frames around, create new ones, change the size and shape, but a frame always stays precisely where you put it on a page. You can link text frames that are pages apart - think of a magazine where a story begins toward the front of the magazine, runs for a couple of pages, and then you see continued on page x. If you're doing a document that is essentially just text - a novel, dissertation, academic paper, etc. - then the continuous text type of application will probably work best. If you're doing something that is design intensive - a newsletter, brochure, flier, advertising piece - then the page layout application will make life much easier. The two kinds of applications have fundamentally different approaches, and that is the point I was trying to make. And I should add that FrameMaker, of all the applications mentioned is, in some respects, kind of a hybrid. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Friday 06 September 2013 05:56:49 PM Virgil Arrington wrote: I don't think you're missing anything, but most of us aren't using LO to prepare the *final* version of a document for professional publication (i.e., books, magazines, etc.). I would truly hope that a publishing house would do more than just take a word processing document and print it out in book format. I know of several publishers who work directly from ODF files. With a couple of exceptions, Writer has most of the tools needed for a thoroughly professional design job, allegedly because when the original code was being written in the days of Star Division, they were told they would have to use what they wrote for documentation. The trick is to know what options to use, and which to ignore (topics that, if you forgive the shameless plug, I am currently grappling with the book I am writing with Jean Hollis Weber). For now, I'll just say that Writer is not a word processor so much as an intermediate desktop publishing program. You can actually substitute it very successfully for proprietary tools like FrameMaker. -- Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time) blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: spacing after punctuation
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 20:18:34 -0700 Bruce Byfield bbyfi...@axion.net dijo: For now, I'll just say that Writer is not a word processor so much as an intermediate desktop publishing program. You can actually substitute it very successfully for proprietary tools like FrameMaker. That is correct, but bear in mind that FrameMaker, like Writer or TeX, is not a page layout application like Scribus, InDesign, QuarkXPress or PageMaker, inter alia. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
