[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
> I'm always uneasy engaging Bill on this subject, suspicious that it's > all a joke and I'm making a fool of myself by treating it as if he's > > Well, maybe interesting and maybe original, but good fantasy *should* > be interesting and original. That doesn't entitle it to be discussed > seriously as if it were reality. Well, that isn't as axiomatic as your legal positivism would have taught you, Herr Advokat. You acquire my drift, don't you??? > I may think the Lord of the Rings is > interesting and original, but I'm not going to invite Frodo Baggins to > dinner and expect him to show up. Why don''t you spend an hour with polyhymnion.org/swv/images/ariasarmatica2.pdf and then see who comes to dinner. Having said that: there are many gradations/states between absolute reality and absolute raving, and the road-kill-vihuela is not the latter yet, although it gets pretty close... RT > >> and all i've received in return is what >> amounts to a company line. > > The company line is yours. You're the CEO, publicity department, and > the only one buying the product. > >> the chordaphones of >> the new world came from europe: they're period >> instruments. to think otherwise denies common sense >> and the eyes in your collective heads. > > I don't have a collective head. I'm perfectly capable of thinking for > myself. > > Everyone knows that fretted string instruments came from Europe to the > Americas, just as it's fairly well accepted that dinosaurs are the > ancestors of birds. This does not mean that the modern American > instruments are their ancestors, any more than a sparrow is a > tyrannosaurus. > > What defies common sense is: > > 1) the notion that instruments got to Peru, or Hawaii, or wherever, and > never changed, as if the local cultures were so stagnant that they > lacked the initiative or the ability to change them (during four > centuries when virtually every European instrument changed > drastically), or took the European instruments as holy relics to be > preserved throughout the ages instead of musical tools to be adapted to > current needs; > > 2) the idea that so many (hundreds?) of local variants of guitar-like > instruments are all European "period instruments" of which there are > somehow no survivors in Europe; and > > 3) the notion that the tiny-bodied, fixed-metal-fret, re-entrant tuned, > 5-course charango, an instrument on which it is impossible to play > vihuela music, and which seems to model its stringing and tuning on the > baroque guitar, is really the historical vihuela. > > If you're going to make these assertions and be taken seriously , you > might throw in a fact or two somewhere. It's rather rude to suggest > that groupthink is the only reason nobody accepts your bald assertions, > and quite lame to do so when your only basis for one of your assertions > the same basis you would use for calling a sparrow a tyrannosaurus. > >> i've saved the best for last. i know i've mentioned >> it before but don't recall anyone responding to it: >> >> the ukulele is a european instrument, directly linked >> to an early tradition. > > All instruments are linked to an earlier tradition. > >> its arrival in the new world >> is well documented > > There's no question that it or its ancestor arrived in the later 19th > century, but I wouldn't call it "well documented." Just a bunch of > oral stories to choose from. > >> and it hasn't changed a bit since. > > It's just as likely that the ukulele is a modification of the > Portuguese cavaquinho, which means that its tuning, stringing and body > shape has changed. Or perhaps it stayed the same and the cavaquinho > changed. > > HP > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
I'm always uneasy engaging Bill on this subject, suspicious that it's all a joke and I'm making a fool of myself by treating it as if he's serious. But one more time... bill kilpatrick wrote: > these are all good points i've raised - interesting > and original - Well, maybe interesting and maybe original, but good fantasy *should* be interesting and original. That doesn't entitle it to be discussed seriously as if it were reality. I may think the Lord of the Rings is interesting and original, but I'm not going to invite Frodo Baggins to dinner and expect him to show up. > and all i've received in return is what > amounts to a company line. The company line is yours. You're the CEO, publicity department, and the only one buying the product. > the chordaphones of > the new world came from europe: they're period > instruments. to think otherwise denies common sense > and the eyes in your collective heads. I don't have a collective head. I'm perfectly capable of thinking for myself. Everyone knows that fretted string instruments came from Europe to the Americas, just as it's fairly well accepted that dinosaurs are the ancestors of birds. This does not mean that the modern American instruments are their ancestors, any more than a sparrow is a tyrannosaurus. What defies common sense is: 1) the notion that instruments got to Peru, or Hawaii, or wherever, and never changed, as if the local cultures were so stagnant that they lacked the initiative or the ability to change them (during four centuries when virtually every European instrument changed drastically), or took the European instruments as holy relics to be preserved throughout the ages instead of musical tools to be adapted to current needs; 2) the idea that so many (hundreds?) of local variants of guitar-like instruments are all European "period instruments" of which there are somehow no survivors in Europe; and 3) the notion that the tiny-bodied, fixed-metal-fret, re-entrant tuned, 5-course charango, an instrument on which it is impossible to play vihuela music, and which seems to model its stringing and tuning on the baroque guitar, is really the historical vihuela. If you're going to make these assertions and be taken seriously , you might throw in a fact or two somewhere. It's rather rude to suggest that groupthink is the only reason nobody accepts your bald assertions, and quite lame to do so when your only basis for one of your assertions the same basis you would use for calling a sparrow a tyrannosaurus. > i've saved the best for last. i know i've mentioned > it before but don't recall anyone responding to it: > > the ukulele is a european instrument, directly linked > to an early tradition. All instruments are linked to an earlier tradition. > its arrival in the new world > is well documented There's no question that it or its ancestor arrived in the later 19th century, but I wouldn't call it "well documented." Just a bunch of oral stories to choose from. > and it hasn't changed a bit since. It's just as likely that the ukulele is a modification of the Portuguese cavaquinho, which means that its tuning, stringing and body shape has changed. Or perhaps it stayed the same and the cavaquinho changed. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
--- Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > charangophile that's vihuelaphile and i believe - as the song goes - i just got the goodbye look. these are all good points i've raised - interesting and original - and all i've received in return is what amounts to a company line. i don't know why this should be - it's not as if you've got thesis's to defend. the chordaphones of the new world came from europe: they're period instruments. to think otherwise denies common sense and the eyes in your collective heads. i've saved the best for last. i know i've mentioned it before but don't recall anyone responding to it: the ukulele is a european instrument, directly linked to an early tradition. its arrival in the new world is well documented and it hasn't changed a bit since. its association with hawaii is so complete that its hawaiian name is universally accepted to be its real name. why? we know it ain't so. what manner of thinking is at play here? the emperor is naked and the charango is a vihuela. thanks guys, it's been fun. i've got a stack of medieval and renaissance tunes to learn on my beautiful new mandolin (m-4 from mid-missouri mandolin co. in the united states - have a look at their site) and the olive trees need work done to them for harvest. mega ciao and thanks - bill "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > An utter lack of corroboration in extant European instruments. I don't > know why people would feel obliged to justify the worth of American > instruments by insisting they are their European parallels/conceptual > ancestors. I still don't understand why this debate goes on. Does it? Is there a real debate? Or is it one charangophile who wants to show that his instrument came over on the Mayflower, as it were, despite the lack of armadillos in the Old World? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
At 07:08 PM 9/19/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: >why was it, do you suppose, that the early >vihuela/guitar was the only european instrument to >undergo such profound changes in the new world? I don't know that that's the case. Consider harp-like things, e.g. In any event, such a thing isn't isn't surprising for any popular, folksy instrument. >bowed instruments were imported about the same time >and they stayed the same. (even if a violin were to >have been found, carved from a single piece of wood - >the way a charango is - it's more than likely it would >still be called a violin.) Consider the rebec popular in that time. There are also a great many bowed things that the violin paradigm of Amati inspired: hardanger fiddle, viola d'amore, viola pomposa, etc. >i don't think any of the >brass family became south americanized to the point >where direct links to their european counterparts >became doubtful. I don't think anybody doubts a connection of charango or other guitar-like American folk instruments to their European counterparts; I think the conceptual ancestry is nothing short of obvious (consider that there are no pre-Columbian records of necked chordophones in the Americas). Personally, I only doubt that charango IS its historic European counterparts. >i guess the obvious answer is that 4 and 5c. >instruments fell out of favor and disappeared here in >europe - leaving nothing "authentic" for authorities >to compare with. Other plucked 4- 5-course instruments persisted in Europe: viola da terra, mandolino Napoletano, machete, etc. >still ... what is it about a basic two-bout, 4 or 5c. >chordaphone in the hands of a new world luthier that >makes people insist that an indigenous alteration has >taken place? An utter lack of corroboration in extant European instruments. I don't know why people would feel obliged to justify the worth of American instruments by insisting they are their European parallels/conceptual ancestors. I still don't understand why this debate goes on. For me it's something like hearing "I don't know why you won't concede that my tea is coffee." They are both excellent and tasty at being themselves in their own right. Can we still be chummy and sip some tea when/if I visit Italy? Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
> one more thought then off to bed: > > why was it, do you suppose, that the early > vihuela/guitar was the only european instrument to > undergo such profound changes in the new world? Because it was inexpensive enough for peones (A LOT cheaper than a violin), and thus a lot more widespread into isolated areas. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
--- "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Without doubt. A charango is a perfectly excellent > charango. i'm sure pluckers everywhere take great comfort in your gracious consideration. one more thought then off to bed: why was it, do you suppose, that the early vihuela/guitar was the only european instrument to undergo such profound changes in the new world? bowed instruments were imported about the same time and they stayed the same. (even if a violin were to have been found, carved from a single piece of wood - the way a charango is - it's more than likely it would still be called a violin.) i don't think any of the brass family became south americanized to the point where direct links to their european counterparts became doubtful. i guess the obvious answer is that 4 and 5c. instruments fell out of favor and disappeared here in europe - leaving nothing "authentic" for authorities to compare with. still ... what is it about a basic two-bout, 4 or 5c. chordaphone in the hands of a new world luthier that makes people insist that an indigenous alteration has taken place? ciao - bill .. the armadillo? is that it? "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
>>i'm not a scientist ( case you hadn't guessed ... ) >>but i vaguely remember a scientific maxim to the >>effect that if a thing looks, feels, acts, sounds, >>smells, etc. ... Like roadkill. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
At 05:36 PM 9/19/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: >i'm not a scientist ( case you hadn't guessed ... ) >but i vaguely remember a scientific maxim to the >effect that if a thing looks, feels, acts, sounds, >etc., etc. ... right, then it probably is right. > >take a charango for example ... Without doubt. A charango is a perfectly excellent charango. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
--- "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, if NOT reproducing extant examples (or > working from relatively > detailed iconography like the guitar image in > Gorlier and Morlaye, 1551), > how can one consider a thing to be a reproduction of > a historic > instrument? Frustrating as it can be perceived, > this is the difference > between the nature of historic reproduction in > musical instruments and > speculation. adhering to a basic idea in construction while giving a nod to aesthetics should bring a luthier as near to making a period instrument today as a luthier would have made hundreds of years ago. i'm not a scientist ( case you hadn't guessed ... ) but i vaguely remember a scientific maxim to the effect that if a thing looks, feels, acts, sounds, etc., etc. ... right, then it probably is right. take a charango for example ... ciao - bill "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
At 01:46 PM 9/19/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: >if that's all you're looking for. isn't it just as >feasible to consider those tunings to be genuine in >european origin and as unchanging as the >guitar/vihuela variations which support them? how >feasible is it that a south american would be >determined enough to alter an existing instrument and >its tuning - passed down to him, ultimately, from the >first europeans off the boat - to make it sound more >"south american?" I don't know. The whole point is that, without period documentation, it's all speculation. >don't know how suitably entertaining it would be for >movies but that's something, at least. especially >when considering that "standards" in the manufacture >of anything is a 20th cent. concept and there's no >counting for the individual taste of luthiers or their >clients - past or present. it seems awfully mean to >me to endlessly restrict the making or recognition of >period instruments to just those few examples which >remain. However, if NOT reproducing extant examples (or working from relatively detailed iconography like the guitar image in Gorlier and Morlaye, 1551), how can one consider a thing to be a reproduction of a historic instrument? Frustrating as it can be perceived, this is the difference between the nature of historic reproduction in musical instruments and speculation. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
--- "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The formalized, > documented tuning intervals of academic music are > more stable by nature and > the only historic tunings we have any hope of > knowing. if that's all you're looking for. isn't it just as feasible to consider those tunings to be genuine in european origin and as unchanging as the guitar/vihuela variations which support them? how feasible is it that a south american would be determined enough to alter an existing instrument and its tuning - passed down to him, ultimately, from the first europeans off the boat - to make it sound more "south american?" > ... I'm absolutely certain that more > happened in the field of > old guitars than what has survived (e.g., no > renaissance-era 4-course > guitar has survived, although there is surviving > published music for it), > but without physical, period evidence, whatever that > was cannot be > considered as any more than the kind of speculation > that makes for > entertaining movies. I take no issue with historic > speculation if it is > named such and weighed accordingly. don't know how suitably entertaining it would be for movies but that's something, at least. especially when considering that "standards" in the manufacture of anything is a 20th cent. concept and there's no counting for the individual taste of luthiers or their clients - past or present. it seems awfully mean to me to endlessly restrict the making or recognition of period instruments to just those few examples which remain. must cook ... then eat ... chow - bill "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
At 12:44 PM 9/19/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: >>> ... one difference between it and baroque guitars >>certainly is >>>their locations along the continuum of >>>time. The baroque era ended 250 years ago. From >The baroque era ended with the deaths of Albrechtsberger in Vienna, and >Bortnyansky in St.Petersburg, i.e. only ca. 200 years ago. >RT I can live with that notion. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
At 12:19 PM 9/19/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: >even if no example of an instrument of this shape and style of >construction presently exists in any museum in europe, >might you hazard a guess ( ... stead-y ... ) that they >existed? I could, but it would be no more than a guess. >as for the variation in the third interval: as the >people who carried these instruments were very far >removed from the influence of formal music training - >to say nothing of a handy music store - wouldn't you >imagine that tuning variations of all sorts were >contrived to meet circumstances - trying ones at that? > one of the charango sources states that hundreds of >regional variations in standard tuning exists in south >america today. Sure, but there is no reason that the experimental isolated tunings of the untrained would continue to be represented in the modern instruments that eventually grew out of theirs either; i.e., jarana cannot be considered an exact, unchanged representative of some unknown renaissance/baroque instrument championed by some sea-going amateur who never really learned to tune it and so tuned it his own way in isolation. The formalized, documented tuning intervals of academic music are more stable by nature and the only historic tunings we have any hope of knowing. >on what do you base the assumption that the first >instruments to arrive in the new world were in any way >different than the ones being made there now - their >new names? I can't make such an assumption...but it might be a riskier assumption to assume they are wholly unchanged from the first instruments to have arrived in the Americas. Where we can trace an instrumental concept with name identity--"guitar," e.g.--it certainly isn't the case that the concept persisted unchanged from the 1500s. All I can KNOW of historic musical instruments is the instruments and associated documentation to have survived from the period in question, and that is to what I had compared the jarana, etc. I'm absolutely certain that more happened in the field of old guitars than what has survived (e.g., no renaissance-era 4-course guitar has survived, although there is surviving published music for it), but without physical, period evidence, whatever that was cannot be considered as any more than the kind of speculation that makes for entertaining movies. I take no issue with historic speculation if it is named such and weighed accordingly. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
>> ... one difference between it and baroque guitars > certainly is >> their locations along the continuum of >> time. The baroque era ended 250 years ago. From The baroque era ended with the deaths of Albrechtsberger in Vienna, and Bortnyansky in St.Petersburg, i.e. only ca. 200 years ago. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
--- "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... one difference between it and baroque guitars certainly is > their locations along the continuum of > time. The baroque era ended 250 years ago. From > your link, "jaranas > became constructed from a single piece of wood with > a top attach." This > wouldn't have been typical of any baroque (likely > renaissance as well) > thing to be named "guitar." Also, the interval of > the third is misplaced > in the relative tuning of jarana in comparison to > historic guitars (almost > like a renaissance-era guitar with an increased > treble range). I don't > know the history of jarana, but, like most such > things, it is its own thing > that was almost certainly conceptually derived from > guitars. i imagine formally trained luthiers abandoned the citole method of instrument making as experience was gained and passed around and instrument maker's skills were refined. for "artiginale" luthiers, however - making instruments for sailors, soldiers and new world explorers - a robust, hearty little hollowed out mallet in a double bout shape would be just the job - "vihuela", "guitar" or call it what you will. even if no example of an instrument of this shape and style of construction presently exists in any museum in europe, might you hazard a guess ( ... stead-y ... ) that they existed? as for the variation in the third interval: as the people who carried these instruments were very far removed from the influence of formal music training - to say nothing of a handy music store - wouldn't you imagine that tuning variations of all sorts were contrived to meet circumstances - trying ones at that? one of the charango sources states that hundreds of regional variations in standard tuning exists in south america today. > Don't forget ukulele! This seems a rather obvious > effort at satire ... don't forget the braginho indeed! and yes ... heavy handed at that - sorry. > Guitars were carried to the Americas where > they inspired the > development of myriad guitar-like things. The > Spanish also would have been > carrying guitars into the Philippines where they > would inspire yet more > regional variants. In spite of their obviously > shared conceptual origins, > these variants all still deserve their named status > as independent > entities. Doesn't seem remotely like coincidence to > me. on what do you base the assumption that the first instruments to arrive in the new world were in any way different than the ones being made there now - their new names? if this becomes tedious, let me know and i'll stop - bill ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
At 10:38 AM 9/19/2005, bill kilpatrick wrote: >i noticed on both this and the "los otros" site that >the jarana is described as being in some way less than >a baroque guitar. i also note that jaranas comes in a >variety of sizes with 4 and 5 courses. > >would anyone familiar with both instruments care to >say what it is, precisely, that distinguishes one from >the other? I can't claim much familiarity with jarana, but one difference between it and baroque guitars certainly is their locations along the continuum of time. The baroque era ended 250 years ago. From your link, "jaranas became constructed from a single piece of wood with a top attach." This wouldn't have been typical of any baroque (likely renaissance as well) thing to be named "guitar." Also, the interval of the third is misplaced in the relative tuning of jarana in comparison to historic guitars (almost like a renaissance-era guitar with an increased treble range). I don't know the history of jarana, but, like most such things, it is its own thing that was almost certainly conceptually derived from guitars. >the jarana reminds me of the octavina from the >philippines and - dare i say it - our own precious, >prestigious, plucky little charango. how clever of >both the south americans and the philippinos to have >this absolutely enormous expanse of pacific ocean >between them yet each develop an instrument so like a >baroque guitar in shape, size, number of courses and >(presumably) sound yet for each to be a totally >unique, wholly indigenous instrument with an entirely >different name! Don't forget ukulele! This seems a rather obvious effort at satire, eh? Necked chordophones are all related if one goes back far enough in time. Guitars were carried to the Americas where they inspired the development of myriad guitar-like things. The Spanish also would have been carrying guitars into the Philippines where they would inspire yet more regional variants. In spite of their obviously shared conceptual origins, these variants all still deserve their named status as independent entities. Doesn't seem remotely like coincidence to me. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano
thanks for the site: http://www.loscenzontles.com/overview.html i noticed on both this and the "los otros" site that the jarana is described as being in some way less than a baroque guitar. i also note that jaranas comes in a variety of sizes with 4 and 5 courses. would anyone familiar with both instruments care to say what it is, precisely, that distinguishes one from the other? the jarana reminds me of the octavina from the philippines and - dare i say it - our own precious, prestigious, plucky little charango. how clever of both the south americans and the philippinos to have this absolutely enormous expanse of pacific ocean between them yet each develop an instrument so like a baroque guitar in shape, size, number of courses and (presumably) sound yet for each to be a totally unique, wholly indigenous instrument with an entirely different name! like the man at the traffic lights the other day who ignored my red face, blue neck veins and vile language and washed the windscreen of my car said to me: "you can't stop a good idea!" - bill "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
