Re: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
Zell, Chris wrote: At this point, I think many of us are so angry and disgusted by the greed and legal invunerability of the ruling class, that I would give it away, just to end their misrule. I do not see how this would end the misrule of the ruling class. Cold fusion has many potential benefits, but this does not seem to be among them. It would put an end to OPEC and the political power of some countries in the Middle East, and Venezuela, but I do not see how we can predict the affect on the ruling class elsewhere. It might strengthen them, since it might concentrate power in the hands of technically well-educated people. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
The oil producers won't be the first victims of LENR (assuming it works as said). Liquids fuel are very efficient per mass, easy to refill, and quite cheap (europe can affort it at 5x the price tax included, so the price limit is about 300$/barel) the first victim will be the inefficient, unpractical, unstorable energy like solar and wind. the second will be biofuel and alike, who are dangerous for ecosystem and humanity (starvation fuel) those energy will be killed instantly, because no investment will be made also the future nuclear energy will be killed, like French 3rd generation EPR, downsized nuclear reactors, 4th generation reactors for production. nuclear reactor will be kept alive for the transition, with existing reactor, then retrofitted when it is cost efficient... research will be made for incinerating reactors, if LENR reactors cannot do it (some pretend LENR can incinerate, with the produced neutrons), and also for cleaning and recycling plants... but basically nuclear industry will move to cleaning mode for 40-60 years. oil can stay long, but the price will be capped, because if too expensive, the research will be affordable to replace oil by LENR in cars and transportation... also many of it's use will be forgotten, like in fixed installation (power plant, UPS, home heating) , big vehicle (cargo, trains... trucks and bus maybe)... sure it will kill the easy money to governments and 7 sisters, and the price will be the cost of extraction. if oil start to get expensive to produce, LENR will replace it quickly... this mean that non-conventional oil and gas will die slowly. reserve will quicky be reduced, without pain, and we will see the peak oil, like we have seen the peak horse in the 20th century, and the peak hunt at neolithic. nickel will never be a limiting factor. only safety delirium can (and probably will temporarily) limit it's spread to an elite of big business. all big business leaders will fight to forbide home usage, and will probably, like with fluocompact lamps, use the greens to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt like they did on GMO, antennasalike. about the impact on work, it will kill few business, start fewer new, make most better. the limiting factor will be work (not resources, unlike oil. like nuclear), but LENR seems to be an easy technology, unlike nuclear energy. IMHO the FUD will only work on rich societies, but will there be any rich society anymore... Europe ? US? maybe we won't be able to afford FUD. at least countries in south and asia will ignore occidental FUD and develop easy small-scale clone version. globally LENR will be good for workers, good for businesses (except the few losers, but there will be many winners). unlike green jobs, the LENR jobs will be cost efficient, and less numerous than today's energy (because less expensive) but it will increase the efficiency of all business and workers... so the question will be if the benefit will be spread to the mass (like in the glorious 30s), or (like today with globalization) concentrated to a small elite. I believe that the big business elite will try to capture the benefit, but it will leak to the workers and small businesses... for me it will behave like the big productivity gains of the 50s-60s... be good for the weak too... unlike today. 2011/12/27 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Zell, Chris wrote: At this point, I think many of us are so angry and disgusted by the greed and legal invulnerability of the ruling class, that I would give it away, just to end their misrule. I do not see how this would end the misrule of the ruling class. Cold fusion has many potential benefits, but this does not seem to be among them. It would put an end to OPEC and the political power of some countries in the Middle East, and Venezuela, but I do not see how we can predict the affect on the ruling class elsewhere. It might strengthen them, since it might concentrate power in the hands of technically well-educated people. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
At this point, I am nearly equating their rule with misrule. The possibility that the Bill of Rights has now been repealed (the NDAA, no longer a 'tin hat' conspiracy idea) is shocking. Free energy is a bit broader topic than Cold Fusion but the main point is a huge disruptive force that tends to trigger decentralization. Iran and Arab states collapse into civil war and poverty. Some will actually turn anti-clerical. The Islamic terrorist threat will recede, unfunded. The financial system will endure more shocks based on the decline in oil/gas assets. Utilities will downsize. Governments will have yet more revenue problems from the loss of oil related revenues and more layoffs. Covering up the crimes of BP will end ( who needs 'em?). There will be articles published lamenting the loss of younger consumers, who having the internet, Facebook, free porn and now, free energy - mostly slack off from the mass economy, reducing demand. Good luck with any VAT tax ideas in such an environment. Do you know what the Too Big To Jail Banks are doing? Straight from the Wall Street Jourrnal - Capital One is blatantly violating the law in 15,000 cases in which they simply ignore bankruptcy judgements and attack debtors. The rest are attacking relatives of DEAD PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO PAY, by harassing them on the phone and trying to guilt them into paying off credit card debt from the dead. I'm not making this up. The above tells me that the Banksters are desperate, as the mass/demand economy dries up. Hit them with free energy and watch the fun really start. The idea that free energy might wreck strong governance is an old sci-fi theme. Godspeed to that. Zell, Chris wrote: At this point, I think many of us are so angry and disgusted by the greed and legal invunerability of the ruling class, that I would give it away, just to end their misrule. I do not see how this would end the misrule of the ruling class. Cold fusion has many potential benefits, but this does not seem to be among them.
RE: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
Recent years showed that oil prices can't get much above $150 a barrel or it creates a downturn that drops the price, amidst layoffs and crashes. What wasn't realized by experts, a few years back, is the degree of correlation that exists between markets today, The calls to invest in emerging markets to avoid the downturn in the developed nations turned out as a disaster. We're all stuck in this global economy together whether we like it or not. I found this out the hard way ($$). From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Alain Sepeda Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 12:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics The oil producers won't be the first victims of LENR (assuming it works as said). Liquids fuel are very efficient per mass, easy to refill, and quite cheap (europe can affort it at 5x the price tax included, so the price limit is about 300$/barel) the first victim will be the inefficient, unpractical, unstorable energy like solar and wind. the second will be biofuel and alike, who are dangerous for ecosystem and humanity (starvation fuel) those energy will be killed instantly, because no investment will be made also the future nuclear energy will be killed, like French 3rd generation EPR, downsized nuclear reactors, 4th generation reactors for production. nuclear reactor will be kept alive for the transition, with existing reactor, then retrofitted when it is cost efficient... research will be made for incinerating reactors, if LENR reactors cannot do it (some pretend LENR can incinerate, with the produced neutrons), and also for cleaning and recycling plants... but basically nuclear industry will move to cleaning mode for 40-60 years. oil can stay long, but the price will be capped, because if too expensive, the research will be affordable to replace oil by LENR in cars and transportation... also many of it's use will be forgotten, like in fixed installation (power plant, UPS, home heating) , big vehicle (cargo, trains... trucks and bus maybe)... sure it will kill the easy money to governments and 7 sisters, and the price will be the cost of extraction. if oil start to get expensive to produce, LENR will replace it quickly... this mean that non-conventional oil and gas will die slowly. reserve will quicky be reduced, without pain, and we will see the peak oil, like we have seen the peak horse in the 20th century, and the peak hunt at neolithic. nickel will never be a limiting factor. only safety delirium can (and probably will temporarily) limit it's spread to an elite of big business. all big business leaders will fight to forbide home usage, and will probably, like with fluocompact lamps, use the greens to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt like they did on GMO, antennasalike. about the impact on work, it will kill few business, start fewer new, make most better. the limiting factor will be work (not resources, unlike oil. like nuclear), but LENR seems to be an easy technology, unlike nuclear energy. IMHO the FUD will only work on rich societies, but will there be any rich society anymore... Europe ? US? maybe we won't be able to afford FUD. at least countries in south and asia will ignore occidental FUD and develop easy small-scale clone version. globally LENR will be good for workers, good for businesses (except the few losers, but there will be many winners). unlike green jobs, the LENR jobs will be cost efficient, and less numerous than today's energy (because less expensive) but it will increase the efficiency of all business and workers... so the question will be if the benefit will be spread to the mass (like in the glorious 30s), or (like today with globalization) concentrated to a small elite. I believe that the big business elite will try to capture the benefit, but it will leak to the workers and small businesses... for me it will behave like the big productivity gains of the 50s-60s... be good for the weak too... unlike today. 2011/12/27 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.commailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com Zell, Chris wrote: At this point, I think many of us are so angry and disgusted by the greed and legal invulnerability of the ruling class, that I would give it away, just to end their misrule. I do not see how this would end the misrule of the ruling class. Cold fusion has many potential benefits, but this does not seem to be among them. It would put an end to OPEC and the political power of some countries in the Middle East, and Venezuela, but I do not see how we can predict the affect on the ruling class elsewhere. It might strengthen them, since it might concentrate power in the hands of technically well-educated people. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Tue, 27 Dec 2011 11:14:56 -0600: Hi, [snip] some pretend LENR can incinerate, with the produced neutrons), and also for cleaning and recycling plants... but basically nuclear industry will move to cleaning mode for 40-60 years. Actually protons would be far better than neutrons, because they can convert unstable isotopes into stable ones. Essentially all isotopes resulting from fission reactions are neutron rich, so adding a proton or two tends to convert them to stable isotopes. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:If I Had Free Energy/Politics
On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:22 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Tue, 27 Dec 2011 11:14:56 -0600: Hi, [snip] some pretend LENR can incinerate, with the produced neutrons), and also for cleaning and recycling plants... but basically nuclear industry will move to cleaning mode for 40-60 years. Actually protons would be far better than neutrons, because they can convert unstable isotopes into stable ones. Essentially all isotopes resulting from fission reactions are neutron rich, so adding a proton or two tends to convert them to stable isotopes. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html For loaded lattices, high energy electrons might be as useful, because they are so easy to provide. Following are some very old posts of mine and quotes which I think are relevant to this subject (nuclear remediation): - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pockets of compressed hydrogen at defects created by hydrogen implantation of metals, esp. aluminum, have been shown to be fusion sites when bombarded by either electron beams (Kamada et al), or deuteron beams (Kasagi et al). The strong containment may be significant at the time of fusion catalysis due to the need to give secondary electrons time to work. The Kasagi experiment created protons with anomalous energies of up to 17 MeV using a beam that was less than 150 KeV. The Kasagi experiment involved the bombardment of a deuterium loaded titanium rod target with deuterium ions at up to 150 KeV. One possible explanation for the above was that somehow the incident deuteron frequently, for unexplained reasons, would interact with two target deuterons: D + D + D ---p + n + alpha + 21.62 MEV One possible explanation for such a phenomenon is that in the lattice deuterons tend to form Bose condensates which, when struck by a deuteron, tend to react as a single entity. Kamada obtained high energy particles and excess heat evidence using electron bombardment of deuterated targets. The fact fusion can be triggered by electron beam bombardment is an indication of or confirmation of electron catalysed fusion. The exciting thing is the requirement for the electron catalysis to happen at highly compressed pockets of deuterium. The high energy electron beam used by Kamada may have been primarily needed in order to obtain the required penetration. Perhaps this is an indication that the best way to obtain a volume CF effect, as opposed to a surface CF effect, is to bombard the deuterated target with xrays. The xrays can then, at depth, provide the needed catalytic electrons of the required energy. It would be of great interest to correlate fusion events with x-ray energy for deuterated targets of varying thickness. One of the interesting results obtained by Kamada: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol. 35 (1996) pp. 738-747 Part 1, No. 2A, February 1996 Anomalous Heat Evolution of Deuteron-Implanted Al upon Electron Bombardment Kohji KAMADA, Hiroshi KINOSHITA [1] and Heishitiro TAKAHASHI [1] National Institute for Fusion Science, Nagoya 464-01, Japan [1] Center of Advanced Research Energy Technology, Hokkaido University, Sapporo 062, Japan (Received December 7, 1994; accepted for publication November 6, 1995) Anomalous heat evolution was observed for the first time in deuteron- implanted Al foils upon 175 keV electron bombardment. Local regions with linear dimension of more than 100 nm showed simultaneous transformation from single-crystalline to polycrystalline structure within roughly one minute during the electron bombardment, indicating a temperature rise to above the melting point of Al from room temperature. The amount of energy evolved was estimated to be typically 160 MeV for each transformed region. The transformation was never observed in proton-implanted Al foils. Micro- structures in the subsurface layer of the implanted Al, investigated by elastic recoil detection (ERD) method and transmission electron microscopy (TEM), were presented for numerical discussions of the experimental results. Possible causes of the surface melting, such as the heating effect of the electron beam, size effect of the melting point, difference in the implanted depth profiles between hydrogen and deuterium, and possible chemical reactions due to the bombardment in D2 collections, were investigated. We consider that some kind of nuclear reaction occurring in the D2 collections is the only explanation for the observed melting. The reaction was esti- mated to continue for only a short time, presumably less than 10E-10 s, and the energy gain, which is defined as the ratio between the amount of energy evolved and the energy loss of the impinging electrons through the Al
