RE: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
-Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:28 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore Please provide an example how a nation with veto power on the security council might be tyrannised if it were to loose its veto. Harry That is not what I was trying to say. Since its inception, the UNhas been relatively ineffective and harmless because whenever they really try to do something it gets vetoed by somebody. If the leadership could institute policies unopposed then things could start to get dangerous for one and all. Nationalism has shown some really bad characteristics over the centuries, but world unity scares me more. Jeff No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.16/1250 - Release Date: 1/29/2008 10:20 PM
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
In reply to Jeff Fink's message of Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:45:08 -0500: Hi, [snip] Since its inception, the UNhas been relatively ineffective and harmless because whenever they really try to do something it gets vetoed by somebody. If the leadership could institute policies unopposed then things could start to get dangerous for one and all. Nationalism has shown some really bad characteristics over the centuries, but world unity scares me more. [snip] That would perhaps be a problem if the UN actually had teeth. However it relies for it's muscle upon contributions of armed forces from member states. That isn't likely to change any time soon. In the mean time, removal of the veto power would ensure that various resolutions that ought to be passed would be passed. Sometimes the major powers deserve to be embarrassed. e.g. US and Iraq, Russia and Chetchnya, China and Taiwan/Tibet. (All examples of a major power putting its own interests above those of the local inhabitants). IMO removal of the veto would lead to a more even handed result all round. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
No veto as Robin said, and more permanent members. Harry On 28/1/2008 10:17 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Interesting. How is it inadequate now? How do you think it should be reformed? Lawrence -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 9:31 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore The UN security council needs to be reformed for starters. Harry On 28/1/2008 6:06 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Agreed, Jed. We are, as a species, entering an age of globalized systems, and I think tackling them will require a new set of linguistic skills. The language we use in politics and policy today is still based on national models of human organization -- one might almost say, tribal. My guess is that our language has led us into the present pickle, and that only linguistic improvements -- and radial ones at that -- will enable us to resolve the problems we have created for ourselves. Cheers, Lawrence -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:53 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore R.C.Macaulay wrote: At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. As I expect everyone here knows, telling me things like that are like waving red meat at a hungry lion. Frankly, such attitudes are anathema to the spirit of science, technology, and America -- three things I hold dear. Of course I acknowledge that people are capable of screwing things up. Of course I know that we might destroy ourselves and the ecology. Heck, we may destroy the world in an hour with thermonuclear bombs. And it goes without saying that there are some potential natural disasters we cannot cope with no matter what, such as the Sun going nova, and there may be irredeemable man-made disasters such as CO2 released from permafrost -- but there isn't yet, as far as I know. As things now stand, global warming and especially the situation in Africa are entirely our fault, and our problem, and I am certain -- beyond any doubt -- that we have the power to fix these problems. As John F. Kennedy said: Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again. Anyone who doubts that is betting against the tide of history. You are betting against human resilience which has survived incredible trials for millions of years as we came through the evolutionary furnace as Florman called it. And you are forgetting that we have transformed the whole face of the earth and we can do it again, and again; we have untold energy at our fingertips; the bounty of the whole solar system just outside our reach; and we are surrounded with everyday technology that people even 150 years ago would have found indistinguishable from magic. How can anyone doubt that we have the power to forestall global warming, or bring properity to the millions of people in Africa?!? Strictly in terms of material resources and physical energy, we could easily create as much wealth for all 6 billion people as only a first-world millionaire enjoys today. The only thing stopping us from doing this is widespread ignorance and the will to act. Are there food shortages? We could grow enough food for everyone on earth in an area the size of Atlanta. Is there not enough meat? In the last few years, my friends at NewHarvest.com have brought the cost of cultivated meat (meat grown in vitro) down from $100,000 to a few thousand dollars per kilogram. It is just a matter of time before meat will be as cheap as tofu, and as clean and easy to make. Do people in Africa lack capital? Look at what the Grameen Bank has accomplished. No technically educated person should claim these problems cannot be solved! There are only two difficulties: 1. Deciding which of the many solutions is most likely to work, at the lowest cost. 2. Pushing aside the ignorant naysayers and greedy fools who say we can't solve the problems and we should just give up. Here is what we must believe and act upon, right up until the last member of our species goes extinct. In October 1941, after 10 months of war, Winston Churchill said: . . . surely from this period of ten months
RE: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Since absolute power corrupts absolutely, a rule that seems to have no exception, a fully empowered one world government will be the most frightful entity ever encountered by the human race, and I sadly believe that most of us under age sixty will live to see what I mean. Historically a person could escape a tyrannical government by fleeing to another land. Where will we go now? Jeff -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:42 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore No veto as Robin said, and more permanent members. Harry On 28/1/2008 10:17 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Interesting. How is it inadequate now? How do you think it should be reformed? Lawrence -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 9:31 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore The UN security council needs to be reformed for starters. Harry On 28/1/2008 6:06 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Agreed, Jed. We are, as a species, entering an age of globalized systems, and I think tackling them will require a new set of linguistic skills. The language we use in politics and policy today is still based on national models of human organization -- one might almost say, tribal. My guess is that our language has led us into the present pickle, and that only linguistic improvements -- and radial ones at that -- will enable us to resolve the problems we have created for ourselves. Cheers, Lawrence -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:53 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore R.C.Macaulay wrote: At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. As I expect everyone here knows, telling me things like that are like waving red meat at a hungry lion. Frankly, such attitudes are anathema to the spirit of science, technology, and America -- three things I hold dear. Of course I acknowledge that people are capable of screwing things up. Of course I know that we might destroy ourselves and the ecology. Heck, we may destroy the world in an hour with thermonuclear bombs. And it goes without saying that there are some potential natural disasters we cannot cope with no matter what, such as the Sun going nova, and there may be irredeemable man-made disasters such as CO2 released from permafrost -- but there isn't yet, as far as I know. As things now stand, global warming and especially the situation in Africa are entirely our fault, and our problem, and I am certain -- beyond any doubt -- that we have the power to fix these problems. As John F. Kennedy said: Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again. Anyone who doubts that is betting against the tide of history. You are betting against human resilience which has survived incredible trials for millions of years as we came through the evolutionary furnace as Florman called it. And you are forgetting that we have transformed the whole face of the earth and we can do it again, and again; we have untold energy at our fingertips; the bounty of the whole solar system just outside our reach; and we are surrounded with everyday technology that people even 150 years ago would have found indistinguishable from magic. How can anyone doubt that we have the power to forestall global warming, or bring properity to the millions of people in Africa?!? Strictly in terms of material resources and physical energy, we could easily create as much wealth for all 6 billion people as only a first-world millionaire enjoys today. The only thing stopping us from doing this is widespread ignorance and the will to act. Are there food shortages? We could grow enough food for everyone on earth in an area the size of Atlanta. Is there not enough meat? In the last few years, my friends at NewHarvest.com have brought the cost of cultivated meat (meat grown in vitro) down from $100,000 to a few thousand dollars per kilogram. It is just a matter of time before meat will be as cheap as tofu, and as clean and easy to make. Do people in Africa
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Howdy Jeff, It is difficult to convey such a thought to a generation that has had a constant barrage of teaching from Miss Pollyana Doogood. Miss Doogood has been trying to explain that the world is run on the level, there is no such thing as evil, and anyone that don't believe it are not intellectual. Richard Jeff wrote, Since absolute power corrupts absolutely, a rule that seems to have no exception, a fully empowered one world government will be the most frightful entity ever encountered by the human race, and I sadly believe that most of us under age sixty will live to see what I mean. Historically a person could escape a tyrannical government by fleeing to another land. Where will we go now?
RE: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Lawrence de Bivort wrote: I understand there are considerable sweet water aquifers under large portions of the Sahara. There are aquifers, but they are being rapidly depleted and destroyed. There is no chance they can be used to reconvert the man-made parts of the desert back into verdant land. That can only be done with desalinization using energy sources other than fossil fuel. Conventional sources such as fission or solar thermal would work, but cold fusion would be orders of magnitude cheaper. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Please provide an example how a nation with veto power on the security council might be tyrannised if it were to loose its veto. Harry On 29/1/2008 8:43 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: Since absolute power corrupts absolutely, a rule that seems to have no exception, a fully empowered one world government will be the most frightful entity ever encountered by the human race, and I sadly believe that most of us under age sixty will live to see what I mean. Historically a person could escape a tyrannical government by fleeing to another land. Where will we go now? Jeff -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:42 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore No veto as Robin said, and more permanent members. Harry On 28/1/2008 10:17 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Interesting. How is it inadequate now? How do you think it should be reformed? Lawrence -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 9:31 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore The UN security council needs to be reformed for starters. Harry On 28/1/2008 6:06 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Agreed, Jed. We are, as a species, entering an age of globalized systems, and I think tackling them will require a new set of linguistic skills. The language we use in politics and policy today is still based on national models of human organization -- one might almost say, tribal. My guess is that our language has led us into the present pickle, and that only linguistic improvements -- and radial ones at that -- will enable us to resolve the problems we have created for ourselves. Cheers, Lawrence -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:53 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore R.C.Macaulay wrote: At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. As I expect everyone here knows, telling me things like that are like waving red meat at a hungry lion. Frankly, such attitudes are anathema to the spirit of science, technology, and America -- three things I hold dear. Of course I acknowledge that people are capable of screwing things up. Of course I know that we might destroy ourselves and the ecology. Heck, we may destroy the world in an hour with thermonuclear bombs. And it goes without saying that there are some potential natural disasters we cannot cope with no matter what, such as the Sun going nova, and there may be irredeemable man-made disasters such as CO2 released from permafrost -- but there isn't yet, as far as I know. As things now stand, global warming and especially the situation in Africa are entirely our fault, and our problem, and I am certain -- beyond any doubt -- that we have the power to fix these problems. As John F. Kennedy said: Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again. Anyone who doubts that is betting against the tide of history. You are betting against human resilience which has survived incredible trials for millions of years as we came through the evolutionary furnace as Florman called it. And you are forgetting that we have transformed the whole face of the earth and we can do it again, and again; we have untold energy at our fingertips; the bounty of the whole solar system just outside our reach; and we are surrounded with everyday technology that people even 150 years ago would have found indistinguishable from magic. How can anyone doubt that we have the power to forestall global warming, or bring properity to the millions of people in Africa?!? Strictly in terms of material resources and physical energy, we could easily create as much wealth for all 6 billion people as only a first-world millionaire enjoys today. The only thing stopping us from doing this is widespread ignorance and the will to act. Are there food shortages? We could grow enough food for everyone on earth in an area the size of Atlanta. Is there not enough meat? In the last few years, my friends at NewHarvest.com have brought the cost of cultivated meat
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
It is more like a feeling than a thought. harry On 29/1/2008 12:38 PM, R.C.Macaulay wrote: Howdy Jeff, It is difficult to convey such a thought to a generation that has had a constant barrage of teaching from Miss Pollyana Doogood. Miss Doogood has been trying to explain that the world is run on the level, there is no such thing as evil, and anyone that don't believe it are not intellectual. Richard Jeff wrote, Since absolute power corrupts absolutely, a rule that seems to have no exception, a fully empowered one world government will be the most frightful entity ever encountered by the human race, and I sadly believe that most of us under age sixty will live to see what I mean. Historically a person could escape a tyrannical government by fleeing to another land. Where will we go now?
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
i think his point is that the aquifers are natural filters, and that rising watertables from ocean flooding would be filtered through them. this is partially true, but it would filter slowly, and you would still end up with salty marshland, likely. On 1/29/08, Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lawrence de Bivort wrote: I understand there are considerable sweet water aquifers under large portions of the Sahara. There are aquifers, but they are being rapidly depleted and destroyed. There is no chance they can be used to reconvert the man-made parts of the desert back into verdant land. That can only be done with desalinization using energy sources other than fossil fuel. Conventional sources such as fission or solar thermal would work, but cold fusion would be orders of magnitude cheaper. - Jed -- That which yields isn't always weak.
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
thats basically it. it depends on if the death and disease and destruction that will be caused is worth it. (if you ask me, i get less people in the world, and beach front property here in az. WIN WIN. ) On 1/28/08, Harry Veeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28/1/2008 8:28 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: It's the attempt to solve a problem that is important. An ill conceived solution will make matters. Let us not waste resources on crazy solutions, but use them to adapt if necessary. We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization. I saw a science show on Saturday that said global warming will cause the sahara to get green again, and then they called that a bad thing! How can that be bad if it was once green? Change happens. Change is continuous. Something somewhere gets better, something somewhere else gets worse. Animals adapt. But, we humans don't want to adapt. We want to stop change, no matter what the cause of the change, rather than adapt. We want the sea shore to stay right where it is now, everywhere, and we will commit unlimited resources to make it so. At sometime in the past, evidence shows levels higher and lower on this planet. It changes continuously. Let it go. Adapt! Adapt or die! ;-) Harry -- That which yields isn't always weak.
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
On 28/1/2008 8:28 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: It's the attempt to solve a problem that is important. An ill conceived solution will make matters. Let us not waste resources on crazy solutions, but use them to adapt if necessary. We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization. The borg collective comes to mind when I think of dismantling. ;-) Harry I saw a science show on Saturday that said global warming will cause the sahara to get green again, and then they called that a bad thing! How can that be bad if it was once green? Change happens. Change is continuous. Something somewhere gets better, something somewhere else gets worse. Animals adapt. But, we humans don't want to adapt. We want to stop change, no matter what the cause of the change, rather than adapt. We want the sea shore to stay right where it is now, everywhere, and we will commit unlimited resources to make it so. At sometime in the past, evidence shows levels higher and lower on this planet. It changes continuously. Let it go. Adapt! No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.13/1246 - Release Date: 1/27/2008 6:39 PM
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
On 28/1/2008 8:28 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: It's the attempt to solve a problem that is important. An ill conceived solution will make matters. Let us not waste resources on crazy solutions, but use them to adapt if necessary. We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization. I saw a science show on Saturday that said global warming will cause the sahara to get green again, and then they called that a bad thing! How can that be bad if it was once green? Change happens. Change is continuous. Something somewhere gets better, something somewhere else gets worse. Animals adapt. But, we humans don't want to adapt. We want to stop change, no matter what the cause of the change, rather than adapt. We want the sea shore to stay right where it is now, everywhere, and we will commit unlimited resources to make it so. At sometime in the past, evidence shows levels higher and lower on this planet. It changes continuously. Let it go. Adapt! Adapt or die! ;-) Harry
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Ed Storms wrote on 1-28-08: Some problems have no solution. That is not the issue. It's the attempt to solve a problem that is important. Finding a substitute for oil, for example, may not impact the climate much but it will have many other benefits ... Jack Smith writes: It is critical that we get off oil no matter where it comes from. For Americans, this is the issue of highest national security. As the world oil glut tips the price of oil into a precipitous drop, the chance is better than 50% that Bush will attack the Iranian oil fields before November, 2008, to reduce supply, even at the risk of closing the Straits of Hormuz, which shouldn't bother Dubai that ?doesn't have oil? Jones Beene wrote on 1-28-08: BTW - to the word-phreak, Dubai is this strange little oil-poor, but asset-rich, emirate on the Gulf (both Persian and Texan, by abstraction) which is pronounced the same as its essential mandate: Do-Buy ... [Jerome] Kerviel is the so-called rogue trader (or scapegoat) who is taking the heat for the recent French banking scandal ... which is becoming a story with many far-reaching tentacles- there are whispers of Halliburton, a secret CIA-Clique (reminiscent of the Star Chamber), the Bin-Laden optiontrades, secret infiltration of the European banking system by ArAms, and it all may eventually get back to our beloved (and aptly-named) Vice President. Keep you eye on this site for upcoming salacious details: http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/ BTW an ArAm is short for ArabAmerican, which is more an earned distinction, based on avarice ... more than anything racial or ethnic. It comes from the former 'suits' of this outfit, which is now the largest corporation in the World, Exxon notwithstanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramco They (ArAms in general and Aramco in particular) actually have far more net wealth than the entire United States of America ... which recently, under the watchful anti-terrorist-eyes of the Bush Administration, has sunk to become a net-debtor nation. (no exaggeration) Jack writes: The Oil Gang is insatiable. They are like vampires who, when gorged on blood, want it more than ever. They will certainly get what they can before their boy leaves office. Jones wrote: ... Don't know if all of the above was necessary to get a grip on this- but here is an understated story from Reuters which may illustrate some of this problem of trying to determine what is real and what is abstraction, in the News of the day. HONG KONG - Incredulous equity traders said on Monday they wanted a better explanation from Societe Generale for how a single rogue trader managed to build up a $73 billion position and cause the French bank to lose $7 billion. I think most people are just astonished that someone could get away with that kind of trade for so long without being noticed, said Matt McKeith, head of equity dealing at First State Investments in Hong Kong. I'd always be slightly suspicious of the company line in these circumstances. Societe Generale said the trader, 31-year-old Jerome Kerviel, created fictitious accounts to make it look as though his positions had been covered, when in fact they remained unhedged, and falsified documents to justify his actions. Jack writes: Hi Jones. Would you please give me the url for the above Reuters story? Jones wrote: [SocGen almost immediately called for an equity infusion. Translation- a shift in ownership. No problem there, right Do-Buy?] Equity traders were foxed by the explanation, especially since the relatively lowly Kerviel appeared to make no personal profit from his gamble, and were flummoxed as to his motives. [Personal profits can be sown in Paree, and harvested in Do-Buy] BTW Kerviel, at the time of this incident, was making about one-tenth the salary of a Wall Street trader with the same responsibility; and French Banks are notorious for low bonuses. No wonder he was so easy to recruit. Bottom line for Jerry? Even after a short stint (for his health) in La Santé, Kerviel if he is not Vinced as they say, will probably have some nice 'digs' waiting for him in the world's tallest hotel ... Jack writes: The construction (?tallest hotel?) going on in Do-Buy is almost beyond belief -- talk about the Tower of Babel. Where is all this money coming from? Didn't they offer to buy out the U. S. port operations? Didn't they just pump billions into Citibank? Is there a list of this stuff somewhere? How many trillions has the Bush family (extended) made since 9-11-01? As a side note, I recently saw The Good Shepherd which, along with a lot of Skull and Bones footage, says that a founder of the CIA was blackmailed by the Russians into telling them where and when the Bay of Pigs invasion was to take place. So JFK was hit by the Mafia by mistake? (A Mafia hit is just one theory -- there is a JFK plan to tell the public about contact with aliens, a JFK withdrawal from Viet Nam, JFK issuing Treasury bills like Lincoln issued
RE: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Agreed, Jed. We are, as a species, entering an age of globalized systems, and I think tackling them will require a new set of linguistic skills. The language we use in politics and policy today is still based on national models of human organization -- one might almost say, tribal. My guess is that our language has led us into the present pickle, and that only linguistic improvements -- and radial ones at that -- will enable us to resolve the problems we have created for ourselves. Cheers, Lawrence -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:53 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore R.C.Macaulay wrote: At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. As I expect everyone here knows, telling me things like that are like waving red meat at a hungry lion. Frankly, such attitudes are anathema to the spirit of science, technology, and America -- three things I hold dear. Of course I acknowledge that people are capable of screwing things up. Of course I know that we might destroy ourselves and the ecology. Heck, we may destroy the world in an hour with thermonuclear bombs. And it goes without saying that there are some potential natural disasters we cannot cope with no matter what, such as the Sun going nova, and there may be irredeemable man-made disasters such as CO2 released from permafrost -- but there isn't yet, as far as I know. As things now stand, global warming and especially the situation in Africa are entirely our fault, and our problem, and I am certain -- beyond any doubt -- that we have the power to fix these problems. As John F. Kennedy said: Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again. Anyone who doubts that is betting against the tide of history. You are betting against human resilience which has survived incredible trials for millions of years as we came through the evolutionary furnace as Florman called it. And you are forgetting that we have transformed the whole face of the earth and we can do it again, and again; we have untold energy at our fingertips; the bounty of the whole solar system just outside our reach; and we are surrounded with everyday technology that people even 150 years ago would have found indistinguishable from magic. How can anyone doubt that we have the power to forestall global warming, or bring properity to the millions of people in Africa?!? Strictly in terms of material resources and physical energy, we could easily create as much wealth for all 6 billion people as only a first-world millionaire enjoys today. The only thing stopping us from doing this is widespread ignorance and the will to act. Are there food shortages? We could grow enough food for everyone on earth in an area the size of Atlanta. Is there not enough meat? In the last few years, my friends at NewHarvest.com have brought the cost of cultivated meat (meat grown in vitro) down from $100,000 to a few thousand dollars per kilogram. It is just a matter of time before meat will be as cheap as tofu, and as clean and easy to make. Do people in Africa lack capital? Look at what the Grameen Bank has accomplished. No technically educated person should claim these problems cannot be solved! There are only two difficulties: 1. Deciding which of the many solutions is most likely to work, at the lowest cost. 2. Pushing aside the ignorant naysayers and greedy fools who say we can't solve the problems and we should just give up. Here is what we must believe and act upon, right up until the last member of our species goes extinct. In October 1941, after 10 months of war, Winston Churchill said: . . . surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty -- never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Regarding our special predicament: I don't care if Albert Gore and 100 million scientists world-wide refuse to look at cold fusion, or ridicule it, or promote crazy ideas such as ethanol instead. I don't care about the apparently overwhelming might of Nature or the DoE. If we try hard enough, and we
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
R.C.Macaulay wrote: At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. As I expect everyone here knows, telling me things like that are like waving red meat at a hungry lion. Frankly, such attitudes are anathema to the spirit of science, technology, and America -- three things I hold dear. Of course I acknowledge that people are capable of screwing things up. Of course I know that we might destroy ourselves and the ecology. Heck, we may destroy the world in an hour with thermonuclear bombs. And it goes without saying that there are some potential natural disasters we cannot cope with no matter what, such as the Sun going nova, and there may be irredeemable man-made disasters such as CO2 released from permafrost -- but there isn't yet, as far as I know. As things now stand, global warming and especially the situation in Africa are entirely our fault, and our problem, and I am certain -- beyond any doubt -- that we have the power to fix these problems. As John F. Kennedy said: Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again. Anyone who doubts that is betting against the tide of history. You are betting against human resilience which has survived incredible trials for millions of years as we came through the evolutionary furnace as Florman called it. And you are forgetting that we have transformed the whole face of the earth and we can do it again, and again; we have untold energy at our fingertips; the bounty of the whole solar system just outside our reach; and we are surrounded with everyday technology that people even 150 years ago would have found indistinguishable from magic. How can anyone doubt that we have the power to forestall global warming, or bring properity to the millions of people in Africa?!? Strictly in terms of material resources and physical energy, we could easily create as much wealth for all 6 billion people as only a first-world millionaire enjoys today. The only thing stopping us from doing this is widespread ignorance and the will to act. Are there food shortages? We could grow enough food for everyone on earth in an area the size of Atlanta. Is there not enough meat? In the last few years, my friends at NewHarvest.com have brought the cost of cultivated meat (meat grown in vitro) down from $100,000 to a few thousand dollars per kilogram. It is just a matter of time before meat will be as cheap as tofu, and as clean and easy to make. Do people in Africa lack capital? Look at what the Grameen Bank has accomplished. No technically educated person should claim these problems cannot be solved! There are only two difficulties: 1. Deciding which of the many solutions is most likely to work, at the lowest cost. 2. Pushing aside the ignorant naysayers and greedy fools who say we can't solve the problems and we should just give up. Here is what we must believe and act upon, right up until the last member of our species goes extinct. In October 1941, after 10 months of war, Winston Churchill said: . . . surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty -- never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Regarding our special predicament: I don't care if Albert Gore and 100 million scientists world-wide refuse to look at cold fusion, or ridicule it, or promote crazy ideas such as ethanol instead. I don't care about the apparently overwhelming might of Nature or the DoE. If we try hard enough, and we are lucky, we WILL push this vast crowd of idiots aside. It isn't a sure thing. But I am not finished yet, and frankly I wouldn't recommend you bet against me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
The UN security council needs to be reformed for starters. Harry On 28/1/2008 6:06 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Agreed, Jed. We are, as a species, entering an age of globalized systems, and I think tackling them will require a new set of linguistic skills. The language we use in politics and policy today is still based on national models of human organization -- one might almost say, tribal. My guess is that our language has led us into the present pickle, and that only linguistic improvements -- and radial ones at that -- will enable us to resolve the problems we have created for ourselves. Cheers, Lawrence -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:53 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore R.C.Macaulay wrote: At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. As I expect everyone here knows, telling me things like that are like waving red meat at a hungry lion. Frankly, such attitudes are anathema to the spirit of science, technology, and America -- three things I hold dear. Of course I acknowledge that people are capable of screwing things up. Of course I know that we might destroy ourselves and the ecology. Heck, we may destroy the world in an hour with thermonuclear bombs. And it goes without saying that there are some potential natural disasters we cannot cope with no matter what, such as the Sun going nova, and there may be irredeemable man-made disasters such as CO2 released from permafrost -- but there isn't yet, as far as I know. As things now stand, global warming and especially the situation in Africa are entirely our fault, and our problem, and I am certain -- beyond any doubt -- that we have the power to fix these problems. As John F. Kennedy said: Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again. Anyone who doubts that is betting against the tide of history. You are betting against human resilience which has survived incredible trials for millions of years as we came through the evolutionary furnace as Florman called it. And you are forgetting that we have transformed the whole face of the earth and we can do it again, and again; we have untold energy at our fingertips; the bounty of the whole solar system just outside our reach; and we are surrounded with everyday technology that people even 150 years ago would have found indistinguishable from magic. How can anyone doubt that we have the power to forestall global warming, or bring properity to the millions of people in Africa?!? Strictly in terms of material resources and physical energy, we could easily create as much wealth for all 6 billion people as only a first-world millionaire enjoys today. The only thing stopping us from doing this is widespread ignorance and the will to act. Are there food shortages? We could grow enough food for everyone on earth in an area the size of Atlanta. Is there not enough meat? In the last few years, my friends at NewHarvest.com have brought the cost of cultivated meat (meat grown in vitro) down from $100,000 to a few thousand dollars per kilogram. It is just a matter of time before meat will be as cheap as tofu, and as clean and easy to make. Do people in Africa lack capital? Look at what the Grameen Bank has accomplished. No technically educated person should claim these problems cannot be solved! There are only two difficulties: 1. Deciding which of the many solutions is most likely to work, at the lowest cost. 2. Pushing aside the ignorant naysayers and greedy fools who say we can't solve the problems and we should just give up. Here is what we must believe and act upon, right up until the last member of our species goes extinct. In October 1941, after 10 months of war, Winston Churchill said: . . . surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty -- never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Regarding our special predicament: I don't care if Albert Gore and 100 million scientists world-wide refuse to look at cold fusion, or ridicule
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:31:10 -0500: Hi, [snip] The UN security council needs to be reformed for starters. Harry [snip] I agree - the right of veto should be removed altogether. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
RE: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Interesting. How is it inadequate now? How do you think it should be reformed? Lawrence -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 9:31 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore The UN security council needs to be reformed for starters. Harry On 28/1/2008 6:06 PM, Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Agreed, Jed. We are, as a species, entering an age of globalized systems, and I think tackling them will require a new set of linguistic skills. The language we use in politics and policy today is still based on national models of human organization -- one might almost say, tribal. My guess is that our language has led us into the present pickle, and that only linguistic improvements -- and radial ones at that -- will enable us to resolve the problems we have created for ourselves. Cheers, Lawrence -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:53 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore R.C.Macaulay wrote: At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. As I expect everyone here knows, telling me things like that are like waving red meat at a hungry lion. Frankly, such attitudes are anathema to the spirit of science, technology, and America -- three things I hold dear. Of course I acknowledge that people are capable of screwing things up. Of course I know that we might destroy ourselves and the ecology. Heck, we may destroy the world in an hour with thermonuclear bombs. And it goes without saying that there are some potential natural disasters we cannot cope with no matter what, such as the Sun going nova, and there may be irredeemable man-made disasters such as CO2 released from permafrost -- but there isn't yet, as far as I know. As things now stand, global warming and especially the situation in Africa are entirely our fault, and our problem, and I am certain -- beyond any doubt -- that we have the power to fix these problems. As John F. Kennedy said: Our problems are manmade - therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable - and we believe they can do it again. Anyone who doubts that is betting against the tide of history. You are betting against human resilience which has survived incredible trials for millions of years as we came through the evolutionary furnace as Florman called it. And you are forgetting that we have transformed the whole face of the earth and we can do it again, and again; we have untold energy at our fingertips; the bounty of the whole solar system just outside our reach; and we are surrounded with everyday technology that people even 150 years ago would have found indistinguishable from magic. How can anyone doubt that we have the power to forestall global warming, or bring properity to the millions of people in Africa?!? Strictly in terms of material resources and physical energy, we could easily create as much wealth for all 6 billion people as only a first-world millionaire enjoys today. The only thing stopping us from doing this is widespread ignorance and the will to act. Are there food shortages? We could grow enough food for everyone on earth in an area the size of Atlanta. Is there not enough meat? In the last few years, my friends at NewHarvest.com have brought the cost of cultivated meat (meat grown in vitro) down from $100,000 to a few thousand dollars per kilogram. It is just a matter of time before meat will be as cheap as tofu, and as clean and easy to make. Do people in Africa lack capital? Look at what the Grameen Bank has accomplished. No technically educated person should claim these problems cannot be solved! There are only two difficulties: 1. Deciding which of the many solutions is most likely to work, at the lowest cost. 2. Pushing aside the ignorant naysayers and greedy fools who say we can't solve the problems and we should just give up. Here is what we must believe and act upon, right up until the last member of our species goes extinct. In October 1941, after 10 months of war, Winston Churchill said: . . . surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
On 1/28/08, *Harry Veeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28/1/2008 8:28 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: I saw a science show on Saturday that said global warming will cause the sahara to get green again, and then they called that a bad thing! How can that be bad if it was once green? Let it go. Adapt! Adapt or die! ;-) Turning the Sahara into farm land sounds great to me! Now if I can just find a plan for a desalinator that is powered by the ZPE. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
RE: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
I understand there are considerable sweet water aquifers under large portions of the Sahara. Lawrence -Original Message- From: thomas malloy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:55 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore On 1/28/08, *Harry Veeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28/1/2008 8:28 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: I saw a science show on Saturday that said global warming will cause the sahara to get green again, and then they called that a bad thing! How can that be bad if it was once green? Let it go. Adapt! Adapt or die! ;-) Turning the Sahara into farm land sounds great to me! Now if I can just find a plan for a desalinator that is powered by the ZPE. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al GoreHarry Veeder quotes.. Al Gore The brunt of this climate crisis is going to be felt in the developing world. All your work... will be undone if you don't focus on this, Bono said. It is clear that those people who have least created this climate crisis... are the least equipped to deal with it. Gore added: I want to say to everyone who wants to solve the climate crisis, they have to take Bono's agenda on extreme poverty, on fighting disease and dealing with the HIV/AIDS crisis and make it an integral part of the world's effort to solve the climate crisis. Howdy Harry, At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. The biggest problem in the world is jealousy, vanity, lust and greed. Add drugs to this equation and witness a decay in civilized society. An attorney friend remarked tha he no longer knew what justice is as a result of his work in the court system. I explained the definition of the word justice as love of order, that which preserves it, we call justice. Neither Al Gore or any of the politicians in or from Washington hold legitimate credentials to speak to the American people on issues they help create. Not because their political position in failing us.. but.. by their lack of moral leadership. What did they and the politicials of either party expect in their constant degradation of congress and the constitution they were sworn to defend and protect. Richard
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
sigh On Jan 27, 2008 12:25 PM, Harry Veeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore by Staff Writers Davos, Switzerland (AFP) Jan 24, 2008 Climate change is occurring far faster than even the worst predictions of the UN's Nobel Prize-winning scientific panel on climate change foresaw, Al Gore warned Thursday. New evidence shows the climate crisis is significantly worse and unfolding more rapidly than those on the pessimistic side of the IPCC projections had warned us, the former US vice president and climate campaigner told delegates at the annual World Economic Forum in Davos. There are now forecasts that the North Pole ice cap may disappear entirely during summer months in as little as five years, Gore said. This is a planetary emergency. There has never been anything remotely like it in the entire history of human civilisation. We are putting at risk all of human civilisation, he added. In 2007, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) issued a report the size of three phone books on the reality and risks of climate change, its fourth assessment in 18 years. In October both Gore and the IPCC, comprising around 3,000 experts, jointly won a Nobel prize for their roles in highlighting climate change. Gore said a little bit of progress had been made at December's climate conference in Bali, Indonesia. He added though that there was a big, large blank spot in the road map agreed in Bali, reserved for the United States' environmental policy once a new president is elected in November and inaugurated in January. He said that the single most important policy that could be implemented would be a tax on carbon emissions that is applied across the whole world, so that those who don't pay the price for carbon don't have an advantage over those who do. I think it is really important from a climate change point of view to move away from the idea that personal actions from each of us represents the solution to this crisis. These are important... but in addition to changing the light bulbs it is important to change the laws, Gore said. He stopped short of endorsing any US presidential candidate but said that whoever is elected will have a better position on climate change than the current administration of US President George W. Bush. Gore was appearing at Davos beside Africa activist and U2 frontman Bono in an effort to combine the fights against climate change and poverty. The brunt of this climate crisis is going to be felt in the developing world. All your work... will be undone if you don't focus on this, Bono said. It is clear that those people who have least created this climate crisis... are the least equipped to deal with it. Gore added: I want to say to everyone who wants to solve the climate crisis, they have to take Bono's agenda on extreme poverty, on fighting disease and dealing with the HIV/AIDS crisis and make it an integral part of the world's effort to solve the climate crisis.
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
R.C.Macaulay wrote: Harry Veeder quotes.. Al Gore The brunt of this climate crisis is going to be felt in the developing world. All your work... will be undone if you don't focus on this, Bono said. It is clear that those people who have least created this climate crisis... are the least equipped to deal with it. Gore added: I want to say to everyone who wants to solve the climate crisis, they have to take Bono's agenda on extreme poverty, on fighting disease and dealing with the HIV/AIDS crisis and make it an integral part of the world's effort to solve the climate crisis. Howdy Harry, At some point in time it becomes necessary to recognize some problems have no solution tasks and simply turn your head in a stance of inevitiability. Al Gore has profited by profiling global warming and Bono the same with Africa but neither have a solution. Of course Richard, some problems have no solution. That is not the issue. It's the attempt to solve a problem that is important. Finding a substitute for oil, for example, may not impact the climate much but it will have many other benefits, which won't be achieved without the encouragement of the climate change issue. Think beyond the local issue and who is benefiting and ask if taking the advice of Al Gore might not benefit us all in many other ways. Meanwhile, move to higher ground. Africa is imploding in on itself, with any attempt to help being frustrated. Climate changes occur but any attempt to modify climate is futile. All the feeding of guilt will not solve insoluable problems. Of course Africa is imploding. Helping Africa is not done because of guilt but because unstable regions, if ignored, tend to spill out into the reset of the world either as disease or terrorist. Africa was destroyed by the Western nations in the past and even at the present time harm is being done because powerful companies want the resources. The biggest problem in the world is jealousy, vanity, lust and greed. That is not the major problem because these have been part of the human condition from day one. The problem is that these conditions now impact a larger part of the society because of increased power in the hands of government and corporations. In the past, leaders who had too much of these characteristics would screw up a small part of the world. Now they can screwup the whole world. But, we just keep on electing them. As a result, we get what we deserve. Add drugs to this equation and witness a decay in civilized society. An attorney friend remarked tha he no longer knew what justice is as a result of his work in the court system. Drugs are not the problem. The problem is the approach used to deal with drug uce. Some countries take a better approach than others, with the US being one of the worst. In this country, any rational approach based on an understanding of human nature and history is labeled as liberal. As a result, the brute force method of people who only respect and enjoy the use of power are in charge. We see this battle between the liberal and conservative approach being carried out on many issues, with the conservatives winning. As a result, society just keeps getting worse. The response to this deterioration is to apply more force and power. Make people behave rather than give them the freedom and reason to behave. If you want to find the reason for the decay, you might consider this one. I explained the definition of the word justice as love of order, that which preserves it, we call justice. Neither Al Gore or any of the politicians in or from Washington hold legitimate credentials to speak to the American people on issues they help create. Not because their political position in failing us.. but.. by their lack of moral leadership. What did they and the politicials of either party expect in their constant degradation of congress and the constitution they were sworn to defend and protect. Unfortunately, the term moral leadership describes one of the reason things are going down hill. Too often, the criteria is based on some religious idea that has no relationship to the present reality or to the need of the general population. Meanwhile the basic beliefs behind the religious philosophy are ignored in an attempt to force compliance with a few emotional issues. Of course a society goes down hill when the moral leaders speak with such hypocrisy. Ed Richard
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
In reply to R.C.Macaulay's message of Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:16:24 -0600: Hi, [snip] The biggest problem in the world is jealousy, vanity, lust and greed. Add drugs to this equation and witness a decay in civilized society. An attorney friend remarked tha he no longer knew what justice is as a result of his work in the court system. I explained the definition of the word justice as love of order, that which preserves it, we call justice. [snip] A fascist dictatorship preserves order, but I would hardly call it just, therefore, I think your definition is somewhat lacking. My definition is that a just system is one in which *all* are treated equally before the law. I suspect this doesn't exist anywhere on Earth. This is different BTW from a *fair* society which tries to treat all members equally, and also from a *free* society, which tries to give all members the greatest possible freedom. A fair society would need to restrict the freedoms of some in order to ensure that all get an equal share, while a free society allows some to exploit others resulting in an unequal distribution of wealth. IOW fairness and freedom are usually to a considerable degree exclusive of one another. Fairness is epitomized by pure communism, while freedom is epitomized by pure capitalism. Most societies end up opting for a mixture of the two, with some restrictions on freedom designed to ensure that exploitation is limited to some degree. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:Climate change 'significantly worse' than feared: Al Gore
Ed Storms wrote, The response to this deterioration is to apply more force and power. Make people behave rather than give them the freedom and reason to behave. If you want to find the reason for the decay, you might consider this one. Meanwhile the basic beliefs behind the religious philosophy are ignored in an attempt to force compliance with a few emotional issues. Howdy Ed, While I have trouble reconciling your words force and make to co-mingling the words with religious philosophy, I suggest we are on the same page, just viewed from a different angle. The simple premise of justice mentioned as Love of order. That which preserves it. we call justice holds for concept but does not define the act of justice which is the purpose of the courts. An interesting sign hanging over a judge's wall states All who seek justice labor here. A wise saying in that it does not claim justice will be found. Lawyers sure spend a lot of time searching for justice in our hip pocket. Actually, there is no such thing as perfect justice other than perfect mercy. It is true that ole Solomon asked for wisdom to discern knowledge to make judgement calls for the people, it is also true that he sure was poor example himself. How an intelligent man could wind up with 300 wives and 600 concubines is anybody's guess.. but that seems to be the way religion and justice can be mixed and interpreted provided you are using somebody else's money. I sorta think like my lawyer buddy.. justice is administered best from the business end of a gun.. provided one has the stomach for it. What is happening in Africa is an example of man's inhumanity to man. What is happening to the world environment is criminal. Look at the huge dead dark area in the Gulf of Mexico off the mouth of the Mississsipi for a horror story. Richard
