Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
On 28 February 2013 19:01, Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: My confidence level in Rossi has gone from 90% down to less than 5%. I would recommend to drop your confidence level to 0 %. I'm even putting a 10kw of solar panels on my roof-- a technology I had hoped would be made obsolete by LENR. Actually, solar power is from theoretical potential cheaper than cold fusion. That is because there are no moving parts in the solar panels. Also cold fusion / lenr to be cheap, it would require centralized power production but this is no good because transmission costs are far higher than installing roof-top solar. If home grid would go for direct current, there would be no need for inverters and transformers. Just plug in your iPad directly into wall socket! The cost of solar is diminishing exponentially. the average cost reduction of system price of solar has been 22 % ± 4 %-units per year for the last four years and there is absolutely no reasons why this trend should not continue still several years into future. By 2015 solar is globally the cheapest way to generate electricity. And by 2020 solar is cheaper than hypothetical cold fusion. Battery technology is also getting cheaper exponentially and the theoretical potential of nanoscale batteries is just unlimited. On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:38 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I know many people who have met Rossi. Some have worked with him for weeks, or months, in his lab. I know people who tested his devices independently, in their own labs, when he was not present. Somehow I do not believe your testimony. There is no independent proof that would even suggest that Rossi has anything expect some excess money and plenty of free time. There are however lots of fools! However, as you said that Krivit is somewhat silly. It really does not require a genius in order to be confident that Rossi is bluffing. He is better just to be ignored, because Rossi is not by anymeans dangerous. He does not deserve attention! I think that this is why I am rooting for crowd funding, because science-ignorant venture capitalists are far too easy to fool. Just say, that if you do not invest your money, someone else will! There are far more wisdom in the crowd than in individual investors. —Jouni
RE: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
I have some friends in Canada who talk about their experience with health care there. It is not as bad as some right wing types would have it - but it still can be frightening. Seeing a specialist or getting an operation can be a far greater wait than what most would experience in the US. There's even a TED lecture on the waiting and how to get ahead in the line. Under British health care, my mother in law would have been condemned to death ( dialysis) and my father in law would have been denied stents ( too old). A Japanese leader made headlines recently with his 'hurry up and die' comment. Until we change the nature of RD, it's hard choices all the way.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
America has the best health care in the world, according to the Republican media machine...so this must be irrelevant...right? Harry On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:13 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: He should start ferreting out the huge amount of financial waste happening such as in obscenely fat salaries being paid out to health care administrators while the rest of us who end up in a hospital are forced to pay a dollar fifty for a Tylenol tablet, which costs 1.5 cents when purchased at Wallmart. People outside the U.S. may not be aware of this but . . . This has been the focus of national attention for the past week. Time magazine ran one of the longest articles they ever printed about this: http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/ It was featured on the Daily Show, so it must be important! On that subject I recommend this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/307617/ - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
In the end you can buy the best health care in the world if you are a wealthy Canadian, American, Brit etc... Harry On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: I have some friends in Canada who talk about their experience with health care there. It is not as bad as some right wing types would have it - but it still can be frightening. Seeing a specialist or getting an operation can be a far greater wait than what most would experience in the US. There's even a TED lecture on the waiting and how to get ahead in the line. Under British health care, my mother in law would have been condemned to death ( dialysis) and my father in law would have been denied stents ( too old). A Japanese leader made headlines recently with his 'hurry up and die' comment. Until we change the nature of RD, it's hard choices all the way.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
it is not the echo I have, more the opposite. of course maybe the difference is how wealthy is the tester... 2013/3/1 Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com America has the best health care in the world, according to the Republican media machine...so this must be irrelevant...right? Harry On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:13 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: He should start ferreting out the huge amount of financial waste happening such as in obscenely fat salaries being paid out to health care administrators while the rest of us who end up in a hospital are forced to pay a dollar fifty for a Tylenol tablet, which costs 1.5 cents when purchased at Wallmart. People outside the U.S. may not be aware of this but . . . This has been the focus of national attention for the past week. Time magazine ran one of the longest articles they ever printed about this: http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/ It was featured on the Daily Show, so it must be important! On that subject I recommend this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/307617/ - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know anyone on this list who has met Rossi.. But Krivit is one of the few people who has met Rossi and watched him run one of his demonstrations. That is incorrect. I know many people who have met Rossi. Some have worked with him for weeks, or months, in his lab. I know people who tested his devices independently, in their own labs, when he was not present. I would say I know more people who have worked with Rossi and examined his devices than just about any other researcher, except McKubre. Granted, I also know people he threw out of his lab in a fury when they pointed out mistakes. He was yelling and carrying on. He has quite a temper at times. Although he is usually a sweet fellow. I guess he is under a lot of pressure. I have not met with him in person but I have spoken with him on the phone. Rossi claimed to be producing kilowatts of steam, while his device was clearly not putting out more than an electric tea kettle. That's not quite accurate, I think. Anyway, an electric tea kettle puts out 1.5 kW in the U.S., but the steam is barely visible. I have a 2 kW gas tabletop cooker for shabu-shabu with a small hole in the top of the ceramic pot. (Some sources say this thing is 4 kW.) When it is going full blast it produces only a thin stream of steam from the hole. See: http://www.amazon.com/Max-Burton-Table-Burner-Black/dp/B000G6S8Y8 We have very little evidence to suggest that Rossi is not a pathological liar . . . Well, he does tend to make things up, especially about people and his business affairs. He boldly lied about *me* on a few occasions! But I have never seen him lie about technical issues. Perhaps I never caught him. As I said, I know people who confirmed his claims independently, with their own instruments. That was years ago when he had that heater in the factory in Italy. They tested that one, too. I know that some people have reported meeting Rossi and thinking that he appeared to be a nice, sincere, older gentleman. I would definitely not describe him that way. I probably know him better than you do. He is nice sometimes, but nasty at other times. He treats his business partners like dirt. I would sooner make a business deal with a baracuuda. But unfortunately, that does not mean that he is not delusional. I see no evidence for that. Everyone I know who has met him says he is brilliant, hands-on and well grounded. He has a track record of inventing important, commercially successful catalytic technology. Plus some failures. Anyone who accomplishes something of importance in technology has also failed. Perhaps Rossi has taken the quote of Jean Giraudoux to heart: The *secret* of *success* is *sincerity*. Once you can fake that you've got it made. If we had to depend on Rossi's personal credibility to evaluate his work, I would dismiss it in an instant. Fortunately, we have some independent proof. Not as much as I would like, but some. Krivit is also in a position to hear whispers from people who may have talked with Rossi--perhaps under NDA. I have been to presentations by people who have worked with Rossi directly and who independently tested his devices when he was not there, including Focardi. To hell with whispers and NDAs. To hell with Krivit's rumor mongering, and his absurd misunderstanding of McKubre. I can see why he would be confused by Rossi. Rossi's tests are terrible! I think he obfuscates deliberately. But Krivit is confused about McKubre because he lacks technical skill. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
Thanks for the clarifications, Jed... I understand you're in a position to hear from insiders who have recently worked with Rossi's technology... Well, what are people saying?? Surely you agree that if a breakthrough as important as energy independence was found, more people would be talking specifics. (I saw Rossi's ABC and it clearly did XYZ!) Even with NDAs and national security at stake, people want to talk about good news. My confidence level in Rossi has gone from 90% down to less than 5%. I'm now fully invested in big oil stocks and I'm even putting a 10kw of solar panels on my roof-- a technology I had hoped would be made obsolete by LENR. What is your confidence level that LENR can produce more than a few watts of energy today? In 2 years? What kinds of different decisions are you making with your insider knowledge of LENR? Curiously, - Brad On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:38 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know anyone on this list who has met Rossi.. But Krivit is one of the few people who has met Rossi and watched him run one of his demonstrations. That is incorrect. I know many people who have met Rossi. Some have worked with him for weeks, or months, in his lab. I know people who tested his devices independently, in their own labs, when he was not present. I would say I know more people who have worked with Rossi and examined his devices than just about any other researcher, except McKubre. Granted, I also know people he threw out of his lab in a fury when they pointed out mistakes. He was yelling and carrying on. He has quite a temper at times. Although he is usually a sweet fellow. I guess he is under a lot of pressure. I have not met with him in person but I have spoken with him on the phone. Rossi claimed to be producing kilowatts of steam, while his device was clearly not putting out more than an electric tea kettle. That's not quite accurate, I think. Anyway, an electric tea kettle puts out 1.5 kW in the U.S., but the steam is barely visible. I have a 2 kW gas tabletop cooker for shabu-shabu with a small hole in the top of the ceramic pot. (Some sources say this thing is 4 kW.) When it is going full blast it produces only a thin stream of steam from the hole. See: http://www.amazon.com/Max-Burton-Table-Burner-Black/dp/B000G6S8Y8 We have very little evidence to suggest that Rossi is not a pathological liar . . . Well, he does tend to make things up, especially about people and his business affairs. He boldly lied about *me* on a few occasions! But I have never seen him lie about technical issues. Perhaps I never caught him. As I said, I know people who confirmed his claims independently, with their own instruments. That was years ago when he had that heater in the factory in Italy. They tested that one, too. I know that some people have reported meeting Rossi and thinking that he appeared to be a nice, sincere, older gentleman. I would definitely not describe him that way. I probably know him better than you do. He is nice sometimes, but nasty at other times. He treats his business partners like dirt. I would sooner make a business deal with a baracuuda. But unfortunately, that does not mean that he is not delusional. I see no evidence for that. Everyone I know who has met him says he is brilliant, hands-on and well grounded. He has a track record of inventing important, commercially successful catalytic technology. Plus some failures. Anyone who accomplishes something of importance in technology has also failed. Perhaps Rossi has taken the quote of Jean Giraudoux to heart: The *secret* of *success* is *sincerity*. Once you can fake that you've got it made. If we had to depend on Rossi's personal credibility to evaluate his work, I would dismiss it in an instant. Fortunately, we have some independent proof. Not as much as I would like, but some. Krivit is also in a position to hear whispers from people who may have talked with Rossi--perhaps under NDA. I have been to presentations by people who have worked with Rossi directly and who independently tested his devices when he was not there, including Focardi. To hell with whispers and NDAs. To hell with Krivit's rumor mongering, and his absurd misunderstanding of McKubre. I can see why he would be confused by Rossi. Rossi's tests are terrible! I think he obfuscates deliberately. But Krivit is confused about McKubre because he lacks technical skill. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the clarifications, Jed... I understand you're in a position to hear from insiders who have recently worked with Rossi's technology... Well, insiders and Focardi, who said all of that on video, and Essen and Kullander. I do not know anyone who has found a fault with their report. They stand by it. I realize many people think they have found a fault with EK but I disagree. Well, what are people saying?? You know what they are saying. Surely you agree that if a breakthrough as important as energy independence was found, more people would be talking specifics. (I saw Rossi's ABC and it clearly did XYZ!) They have been pretty specific. But what you say applies to any other cold fusion experiment. At the NRL, the heat releases are tiny and it only works ~5% of the time, but from a scientific point of view it is just as convincing and important as Rossi's results. The first fission reactor at U. Chicago produced only a few watts as I recall, but it proved that a gigantic release of energy was possible. It proved that just as much as it would have if it had been 1 MW. The scale is irrelevant. That is why Rossi's 1 MW reactor was such a waste of time. It would have impressed investors and potential customers just as much at 10 kW or even 100 W. Scaling up to that improbable configuration was pointless. My confidence level in Rossi has gone from 90% down to less than 5%. I can't imagine what basis you have for such a calculation. Perhaps you know something about him I do not. It seems to me Rossi is in about the same place he was in 2011. The probabilities cover a huge range, almost like a quantum effect. He may never decohere. People like him often take their secrets to the grave. (Assuming they actually have secrets.) He promised me he would not do that, but you never know. His business prospects are impossible to fathom. Perhaps a a third party verification will be released in a few weeks, as he claims. I would not rule that out! Nothing he say about his business can be trusted, and nothing can be dismissed. What is your confidence level that LENR can produce more than a few watts of energy today? That question depends entirely on politics. We could have cold fusion powered automobiles in five or 10 years if we *really* wanted them. Just put lots of money and people on the job. FP sustained a 101 W reaction for 158 days back in 1996, so obviously there must be a way to make this into a practical source of energy. It was all but done! We could do this, but given the irrational opposition, I think it is more likely the research will be suppressed and forgotten. It is impossible to predict a political outcome, or any other primate behavior. It is the most complicated phenomenon in the known universe. What kinds of different decisions are you making with your insider knowledge of LENR? I have no inside knowledge. Everything of importance that I learn, I publish at LENR-CANR.org. I avoid groups such as CMNS because I do not wish to hear any inside information. If I can't publish it, I don't want to hear it. The only exception in this case was the presentation of the independent testing of Rossi's gadget. I *thought* they would give me permission to upload that, but no dice. I have no influence and I can make no decisions that would influence the course of events. Really, the only people who can make this happen are multimillionaires and billionaires. I think there is no likelihood the DoE or any other government agency will fund the research. There are few researchers such as Dennis Cravens who might be able to break the logjam and convince the world that cold fusion is real. Unfortunately, Cravens insists on doing strange tests with things like his Model A Ford. In my opinion, he will not convince anyone by that method. He needs to use standard, top quality calorimeters and he needs to publish a conventional paper in a journal or proceedings. He complains that he gets no support. I tell him he reminds me of a rebellious 18-year-old kid who goes in for a job interview with no tie and an attitude problem. The kid does not get the job and he blames society instead of looking in the mirror. As Martin Fleischmann said, we are painfully conventional people. If you want support from engineers, scientists and investors -- the audience at LENR-CANR.org -- you have to do things their way, and meet their expectations. I expect the Model A will torpedo any prospect of funding. I hope I am wrong about that. That's what I tell Dennis. He doesn't want to hear it. Like Rossi, he insists on doing things his way, even if it means he will probably fail. Mizuno is the same way sometimes. These people have enormous egos that get in their way. They would rather lose everything and deprive the world of their discovery than meet anyone halfway, or take anyone's advice. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: He should start ferreting out the huge amount of financial waste happening such as in obscenely fat salaries being paid out to health care administrators while the rest of us who end up in a hospital are forced to pay a dollar fifty for a Tylenol tablet, which costs 1.5 cents when purchased at Wallmart. People outside the U.S. may not be aware of this but . . . This has been the focus of national attention for the past week. Time magazine ran one of the longest articles they ever printed about this: http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/ It was featured on the Daily Show, so it must be important! On that subject I recommend this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/307617/ - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
From Jed: Regarding Krivit's reporting proclivities. ... You asked: Why [does Krivit] make enemies? Needlessly so, I might add. The only answer that makes sense to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog rivet! ... Sorry. I couldn't resist. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/
RE: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
I see I can once again, post in Vortex-l Let me follow up with the following addendum: I've come to the conclusion that Krivit's unique brand of investigative skills would be more suitable if applied towards the investigation of the abomination known as the United State's health-care system. Once when I was still a NET board member Mr. Krivit told me he was possibly interested in investigating the health care field. He was thinking of doing that after he felt he had done all he could do within the LENR field. I wish Mr. Krivit would wrap up his LENR ASAP and start applying his investigative skills towards investigating the health care system. I think that's the field where he would end up doing the most good work for society. It's been my observation that Steve excels at digging up dirt on individuals and then writing up scrappy exposés on their deplorable behavior, especially individuals in places of power who screw around with their colleagues. IMO, ferreting out all the crap going on in the HC system would be right up Mr. Krivit's alley. I suspect he would become famous for his exposés and end up making far more of an useful impact there than what he is currently trying to achieve within the LENR field. There is so much wanton waste and kleptomania going on within HC management that I honestly don't know what Steve waiting for! For god's sake, there are gold nuggets lying on the floor waiting to be pocketed. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/
Re: [Vo]:Krivit takes a hard line on Rossi
I don't know anyone on this list who has met Rossi.. But Krivit is one of the few people who has met Rossi and watched him run one of his demonstrations. Rossi claimed to be producing kilowatts of steam, while his device was clearly not putting out more than an electric tea kettle. This would have been enough to convince many of us, had we been there, that Rossi was either delusional or a huckster. We have very little evidence to suggest that Rossi is not a pathological liar, as he has demonstrated nothing concrete. His 3rd party engineer who was picked by the customer was an old acquaintance. I know that some people have reported meeting Rossi and thinking that he appeared to be a nice, sincere, older gentleman.. But unfortunately, that does not mean that he is not delusional. (A quick look on youtube will find dozens of people recounting their encounters with outer space aliens, with straight faces and the utmost sincerity.) Perhaps Rossi has taken the quote of Jean Giraudoux to heart: The *secret* of *success* is *sincerity*. Once you can fake that you've got it made. Krivit is also in a position to hear whispers from people who may have talked with Rossi--perhaps under NDA. And people will understandably talk about LENR because of the fantastic claims that Rossi puts forth. If there was ANY hard evidence that Rossi had closed the loop or even generated significant energy over time, that kind of information would leak so fast it would be unstoppable. The financial markets would be quick to capitalize on any disruption to the status quo of big oil. Last I checked, all oil stocks are doing well. As far as professional suicide goes... I don't think it will apply.. Its nice that someone takes a stand for their position and puts their livelihoods and reputations on the line.. - Brad On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: This may have been reported here already. Anyway, see the comment here: http://skeptoid.com/blog/2013/02/26/lenr-a-bright-future-part-1/ QUOTE And as far as Rossi, that story is over. http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Andrea-Rossi-Energy-Catalyzer-Investigation-Index.shtml You have to hand it to Steve Krivit. He does not fear to stick his neck out and make harsh assertions. If Rossi is telling the truth and an impartial review of his machine is published next month, Krivit will have egg on his face. I have no idea whether that will happen or not. But even if I was 99% sure it will not happen, I would see no point in riling up Rossi or making myself look like a fool if it turns out I am wrong. It does not seem important enough to pick a fight about. In the document at New Energy Times linked above, Krivit also attacks McKubre: Rossi had found natural allies among a group of scientists who had been fighting a losing battle for two decades to get the world to believe in their idea of cold fusion. One of the more prominent of these scientists had even played around with data in order to give the appearance that cold fusion was real. (Michael McKubre's M4 Experiment) [ http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/McKubreM4/McKubre-Experiment-M4.shtml] Rossi also spent time building a fan base through his blog. . . . He has some basis for his attack on Rossi. His statements are McKubre are amateur nonsense. Mere misunderstandings. And again, they seem pointless to me. Why make enemies? Even if you suspect McKubre has done what Krivit claims, why make a big deal about it? Who cares? If the data is wrong for any reason -- mistake or fraud -- that will be revealed sooner or later. What I mean is that Krivit is not the only person who has seen the data. He arrived at his conclusions by his own analysis, not on the basis of inside information. There are no secrets involved. So if Krivit is correct, it is inevitable that others will see what he means and come agree with him. To put it another way, if McKubre is lying, he has done it in a peculiar way. He left the evidence of his guilt out in the open where even an amateur like Krivit can find it. The biggest fraud I know of in the history of cold fusion is the MIT data, and that was more farce than fraud. It is was unimportant. Gene Mallove was upset about it, but I thought it was silly. - Jed
