Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
Axil and Jed, I think this is an issue. I do not think that the solution will come easy but it will come - more or less good. My thought; why do we need to participate in this war? who benefits? Thinking a little outside the box. What is it that we need to protect in the US, that people in Spain do not need to protect. As I can see it the nations have an interest because they want to keep the tax money in this nation and not in another nation. However, that interest goes away if we have a more apt tax system. The other group that have this interest of conquer and divide id the criminals. A specialist in France or Japan or Chile will have very similar capacity to destroy or defend the infrastructure we are talking about. Why do they want to destroy what their colleague has built? It is not like they can steal anything they can just be equally well off. If they all built infrastructure than there would be only benefits. I will make an example so it becomes more clear. I guess otherwise I will have someone saying that I am naive and express wishful thinking. In Europe the railway system was built and designed in more or less each country by itself. I have never heard of that different nations tried to destroy each others rail system (except during war, which where induced because of factors beyond the rail systems). Instead the different nations found ways to find standards or design systems to handle the different distance between the rails for example. There was no real benefit in keeping a nation specific system. Moving trains around the continent or data and knowledge around the world - what is the difference. I like this LENR community as there is input from Russia, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania US, etc. Seldom is there a voice for keeping other nations away from the knowledge. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: As the extent and importance of automation grows in the life of a nation, so to will the number and importance of the people who create, attack, and protect that automation infrastructure. I doubt this will be a problem much longer. It would be easy to improve security with a better design for the internet and some other key technology. It is just a matter of passing laws and spending the money. It should have been done 10 years ago. This crisis reminds me of the crisis with steam engine boilers in the late 19th century. There were many boiler explosions because there no standards, inspections or codes. The ASME was founded in 1880 to deal with the problem. It established codes and standards, and the situation improved, but the problem was not solved until the codes were written into laws until the early 20th century. After that, the problem abated and boiler explosions are extremely rare today. See: https://www.asme.org/about-asme/engineering-history At present there is not much incentive to improve internet security. No one wants to pay for it. The other big problem is credit cards, which are robbed by the millions. The credit card companies probably figure it is cheaper to accept the losses than to fix the problem. They do not take into account that theft is annoying the public, and some of the losses are not discovered and thus paid for by consumers instead of the credit card issuer. They are finally introducing the EMV credit card security standard which will greatly reduce theft. Many other hazards and scourges can be reduced with technology. Most pollution could easily be reduced. The danger of casualties from fire can be practically eliminated with smoke detectors. We do not fix these problems because it costs money, not because we don't know how to fix them. That is not to suggest that all technical problems might be easily fixed. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
So would you consider the jobs required to create, support and run the internet, networks and infrastructure that this list runs on as bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption? How about the jobs to create and deliver the computer, tablet or mobile device you use to post on this and all of the associated software required to do that? I'm not suggesting you were advocating that you were not a part of the bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption - just questioning if in your mind there were any other categories between safety, security, etc and bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. :) On 8/4/15 5:03 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
to provide services. Technical support and customer service phones jobs is a MASSIVE industry. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Jobs required to create, support and run the internet are the vast majority? To make tablets and software? Laugh! On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:44 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: blaze, if not for the overhead eating efficiency created by mass building, those things wouldn't exist. and the jobs you are describing are a SMALL fraction of the jobs available, and the ones Joe is listing the vast MAJORITY. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: No, any sort of job that increases communication and education I don't see as generally planet wrecking, though certainly we could do a lot better.I'm talking about the excess energy consumption, cars, the houses, the yachts, the airplanes, the military to protect all this, etc etc. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Joe Hughes jhughe...@comcast.net wrote: So would you consider the jobs required to create, support and run the internet, networks and infrastructure that this list runs on as bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption? How about the jobs to create and deliver the computer, tablet or mobile device you use to post on this and all of the associated software required to do that? I'm not suggesting you were advocating that you were not a part of the bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption - just questioning if in your mind there were any other categories between safety, security, etc and bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. :) On 8/4/15 5:03 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
As the extent and importance of automation grows in the life of a nation, so to will the number and importance of the people who create, attack, and protect that automation infrastructure. A nation and its people will be so dependent on automation, that an attack on that automation cannot be allowed to occur. Only people with skills can either attack and/or fight against such attack. A perpetual cold war will develop in which nations try to undercut other nations to advance their interests. The thief of intellectual property and information is also important here. The same will be true for people who will probe for soft targets around the world to divert the wealth of others to their own purpose. Future employment will center on either the support and/or the destruction of automated infrastructure worldwide on the national, cooperate, and personal level. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 7:52 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: to provide services. Technical support and customer service phones jobs is a MASSIVE industry. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Jobs required to create, support and run the internet are the vast majority? To make tablets and software? Laugh! On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:44 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: blaze, if not for the overhead eating efficiency created by mass building, those things wouldn't exist. and the jobs you are describing are a SMALL fraction of the jobs available, and the ones Joe is listing the vast MAJORITY. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: No, any sort of job that increases communication and education I don't see as generally planet wrecking, though certainly we could do a lot better.I'm talking about the excess energy consumption, cars, the houses, the yachts, the airplanes, the military to protect all this, etc etc. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Joe Hughes jhughe...@comcast.net wrote: So would you consider the jobs required to create, support and run the internet, networks and infrastructure that this list runs on as bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption? How about the jobs to create and deliver the computer, tablet or mobile device you use to post on this and all of the associated software required to do that? I'm not suggesting you were advocating that you were not a part of the bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption - just questioning if in your mind there were any other categories between safety, security, etc and bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. :) On 8/4/15 5:03 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
Hello Jed, I think you are pessimistic about the time frame for auto driven cars, trucks etc. 10 years, at the most 15 years. I think we will see this technology implemented rather slowly though. Large expensive vehicle (read 18 wheeler) ought to be the beginning. There are really no big obstacles. Even with a side driver involved (to begin with) it might pay for trucking companies. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:52 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: to provide services. Technical support and customer service phones jobs is a MASSIVE industry. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Jobs required to create, support and run the internet are the vast majority? To make tablets and software? Laugh! On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:44 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: blaze, if not for the overhead eating efficiency created by mass building, those things wouldn't exist. and the jobs you are describing are a SMALL fraction of the jobs available, and the ones Joe is listing the vast MAJORITY. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: No, any sort of job that increases communication and education I don't see as generally planet wrecking, though certainly we could do a lot better.I'm talking about the excess energy consumption, cars, the houses, the yachts, the airplanes, the military to protect all this, etc etc. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Joe Hughes jhughe...@comcast.net wrote: So would you consider the jobs required to create, support and run the internet, networks and infrastructure that this list runs on as bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption? How about the jobs to create and deliver the computer, tablet or mobile device you use to post on this and all of the associated software required to do that? I'm not suggesting you were advocating that you were not a part of the bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption - just questioning if in your mind there were any other categories between safety, security, etc and bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. :) On 8/4/15 5:03 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
Jobs required to create, support and run the internet are the vast majority? To make tablets and software? Laugh! On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:44 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: blaze, if not for the overhead eating efficiency created by mass building, those things wouldn't exist. and the jobs you are describing are a SMALL fraction of the jobs available, and the ones Joe is listing the vast MAJORITY. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: No, any sort of job that increases communication and education I don't see as generally planet wrecking, though certainly we could do a lot better.I'm talking about the excess energy consumption, cars, the houses, the yachts, the airplanes, the military to protect all this, etc etc. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Joe Hughes jhughe...@comcast.net wrote: So would you consider the jobs required to create, support and run the internet, networks and infrastructure that this list runs on as bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption? How about the jobs to create and deliver the computer, tablet or mobile device you use to post on this and all of the associated software required to do that? I'm not suggesting you were advocating that you were not a part of the bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption - just questioning if in your mind there were any other categories between safety, security, etc and bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. :) On 8/4/15 5:03 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
No, any sort of job that increases communication and education I don't see as generally planet wrecking, though certainly we could do a lot better. I'm talking about the excess energy consumption, cars, the houses, the yachts, the airplanes, the military to protect all this, etc etc. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Joe Hughes jhughe...@comcast.net wrote: So would you consider the jobs required to create, support and run the internet, networks and infrastructure that this list runs on as bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption? How about the jobs to create and deliver the computer, tablet or mobile device you use to post on this and all of the associated software required to do that? I'm not suggesting you were advocating that you were not a part of the bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption - just questioning if in your mind there were any other categories between safety, security, etc and bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. :) On 8/4/15 5:03 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
blaze, if not for the overhead eating efficiency created by mass building, those things wouldn't exist. and the jobs you are describing are a SMALL fraction of the jobs available, and the ones Joe is listing the vast MAJORITY. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: No, any sort of job that increases communication and education I don't see as generally planet wrecking, though certainly we could do a lot better. I'm talking about the excess energy consumption, cars, the houses, the yachts, the airplanes, the military to protect all this, etc etc. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Joe Hughes jhughe...@comcast.net wrote: So would you consider the jobs required to create, support and run the internet, networks and infrastructure that this list runs on as bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption? How about the jobs to create and deliver the computer, tablet or mobile device you use to post on this and all of the associated software required to do that? I'm not suggesting you were advocating that you were not a part of the bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption - just questioning if in your mind there were any other categories between safety, security, etc and bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. :) On 8/4/15 5:03 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
Because a lot of things still require the human touch and cant be replaced by a robot. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/08/04/why-are-there-still-so-many-jobs-the-case-for-the-persistence-of-middle-skill-employment/ I think the answer is pretty obvious, non? There are so many jobs because interest rates are artificially low and allow businesses to borrow at cheap rates and hire people for pretty much useless labor. As soon as rates go back up, than we'll see if there are still so many jobs.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
Most of those things are pretty much unnecessary though. As soon as you get a few levels up on maslow's hierarchy of needs (safety / security / etc), it's all pretty much just useless bullsh*t planet wrecking consumption. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:01 PM, leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: Because a lot of things still require the human touch and cant be replaced by a robot. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/08/04/why-are-there-still-so-many-jobs-the-case-for-the-persistence-of-middle-skill-employment/ I think the answer is pretty obvious, non? There are so many jobs because interest rates are artificially low and allow businesses to borrow at cheap rates and hire people for pretty much useless labor. As soon as rates go back up, than we'll see if there are still so many jobs.
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
leaking pen itsat...@gmail.com wrote: Because a lot of things still require the human touch and cant be replaced by a robot. Correct. Plus, many unskilled jobs still require basic skills that computers and robots have not yet fully mastered, such as driving automobiles and stocking shelves in ordinary grocery stores. Strictly speaking, some robots can do these jobs, but those robots are still in the development stage. For example, the ones that can drive cars do an excellent job and they are probably safer than human drivers. But they are still experimental, expensive, and they have not yet been approved for stand-alone use. So far, they are only allowed with a human driver present, which defeats the purpose. It is a sensible precaution at this stage, but it takes away the economic incentive to use such cars. So you cannot yet have a robot delivery truck or taxi cab. I think it is inevitable that they will eventually be marketed, and sooner or later a human driver will no longer be needed. The laws will be changed to allow self driving automobiles without human drivers. At that point a large fraction of jobs will be lost. I cannot predict whether that will be 20 years in the future or 50 years in the future but I am certain it will happen. The only thing preventing it will be custom and law and the fact that people are afraid of new technology. Once it becomes legal to ride in a taxi cab without a licensed human driver, many people will forego getting a drivers license. Even those who get drivers licenses will go for months or years without actually driving a car. Their skill will atrophy. There will be accidents caused by people who have not driven in a long time. Sooner or later law will be changed to ban the use of human-driven automobiles on public roads. They will only be allowed on private property and in special areas such as old highways reserved for driving enthusiasts. I would never think of driving if I could avoid it, and neither would my daughter, she told me the other day. I could an international driver's license from the AAA for a few dollars, but I have never driven in Japan because it is rather difficult with the narrow roads. I would never think of driving in Italy, Korea or India because many drivers in these countries ignore traffic laws. They ignore stop signs, red lights and crosswalks. The only rule is whoever races to the intersection fastest and does not slow down gets to lean on his horn and barrel through without stopping. It is a game of chicken. Pedestrian crosswalks are meaningless. If you are a pedestrian and a car is heading for you, you must leap out of the way. Much of the world is like this, which is why we need robot automobiles. Robots can easily stock shelves in places like warehouses, and robots are used exclusively in the Amazon.com warehouses. But cheap robots capable of stocking ordinary grocery shelves in buildings designed for humans have not yet been developed. I am certain they will be within a few years. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Why are there still so many jobs?
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: As the extent and importance of automation grows in the life of a nation, so to will the number and importance of the people who create, attack, and protect that automation infrastructure. I doubt this will be a problem much longer. It would be easy to improve security with a better design for the internet and some other key technology. It is just a matter of passing laws and spending the money. It should have been done 10 years ago. This crisis reminds me of the crisis with steam engine boilers in the late 19th century. There were many boiler explosions because there no standards, inspections or codes. The ASME was founded in 1880 to deal with the problem. It established codes and standards, and the situation improved, but the problem was not solved until the codes were written into laws until the early 20th century. After that, the problem abated and boiler explosions are extremely rare today. See: https://www.asme.org/about-asme/engineering-history At present there is not much incentive to improve internet security. No one wants to pay for it. The other big problem is credit cards, which are robbed by the millions. The credit card companies probably figure it is cheaper to accept the losses than to fix the problem. They do not take into account that theft is annoying the public, and some of the losses are not discovered and thus paid for by consumers instead of the credit card issuer. They are finally introducing the EMV credit card security standard which will greatly reduce theft. Many other hazards and scourges can be reduced with technology. Most pollution could easily be reduced. The danger of casualties from fire can be practically eliminated with smoke detectors. We do not fix these problems because it costs money, not because we don't know how to fix them. That is not to suggest that all technical problems might be easily fixed. - Jed
