Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Hi Avi,
The only thing I would add a priori.
Is that the cost of scalar packet processing in the kernel may mean that
the cost of the single packet copy will be comparatively in the noise,
and that userspace vSwitch will give you additional features/flexibility
versus what you can realize in the Kernel.
If you benchmark, would be good to know the results.
Thanks,
Ray K
On 19/02/2018 08:48, Jerome Tollet wrote:
Hi Avi,
As I already told you in a previous message. With tapv2, there's no longer copy
from user to kernel (there's still kernel to user copy).
Jerome
Le 19/02/2018 09:35, « vpp-dev@lists.fd.io au nom de Avi Cohen (A) »
a écrit :
Thank you Ray
dpdk is not running in the container - this is customer container and I
cannot force the customer to use dpdk.
Regarding the "not compatible" - I mean pkts received at vpp user-space,
destined to C1 (container) ,
should be copied to the kernel and then to C1 IP-stack (e.g. AF_PACKET
interface ) , while this copy can be saved if my vSwitch is running in kernel.
So theoretically for the container networking use-case , vSwitch in
kernel can achieve better performance and CPU utilization than any vSwitch
over dpdk. (VPP or OvS)
Unless a memory map can be used here to save the copy (userspace to kernel
and kernel to userspace)
Best Regards
Avi
> -Original Message-
> From: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io [mailto:vpp-dev@lists.fd.io] On Behalf Of Ray
Kinsella
> Sent: Friday, 16 February, 2018 4:52 PM
> To: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io
> Subject: Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux
> containers
>
> Hi Avi,
>
> So the "not compatible" comment is something I would like to understand
a bit
> more?
>
> Are you typically running DPDK/VPP based or Socket based applications
inside
> your containers?
>
> Our perspective is that userspace networking is also equally good for
> Container/Cloud Native - of course depending on what you are trying to
do. We
> have done a huge amount of work in both VPP and DPDK developing
> technologies to help like MemIF (including libmemif), Virtio-User,
FastTap,
> Master-VM, Contiv-VPP etc to help in this regard.
>
> What a container is - ultimately - is a silo'ing of CPU, memory and IO
resources
> for both Kernel and Userspace processes, but there is nothing in this
forces us
> to choose Kernel over Userspace networking.
>
> The way we typically handle Containers networking for both VPP/DPDK is
for
> packets to flow directly between userspace processes - no kernel
required.
> Where VPP runs in the default namespace possibly as a vSwitch or
vRouter, and
> switches packets to containers running DPDK/VPP etc, all achieved in
> userspace. We also provide the Master-VM approach and/or FastTAP or
> AF_PACKET to punt the packets into the Kernel when required.
>
> We test the the performance of aspects of this such as Memif regularly -
> results are available here.
>
>
https://docs.fd.io/csit/rls1710/report/vpp_performance_tests/packet_throughp
> ut_graphs/container_memif.html#ndr-throughput
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray K
>
>
> On 13/02/2018 14:04, Avi Cohen (A) wrote:
> > Hello
> > Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for container
> networking.
> >
> > Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense that
> container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at
VPP-DPDK
> at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down
to the
> kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt
can be
> forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel.
> >
> > I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working'
stage.
> > Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of this
vhost-
> user for containers ?
> >
> > Best Regards
> > Avi
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Hi Avi,
As I already told you in a previous message. With tapv2, there's no longer copy
from user to kernel (there's still kernel to user copy).
Jerome
Le 19/02/2018 09:35, « vpp-dev@lists.fd.io au nom de Avi Cohen (A) »
a écrit :
Thank you Ray
dpdk is not running in the container - this is customer container and I
cannot force the customer to use dpdk.
Regarding the "not compatible" - I mean pkts received at vpp user-space,
destined to C1 (container) ,
should be copied to the kernel and then to C1 IP-stack (e.g. AF_PACKET
interface ) , while this copy can be saved if my vSwitch is running in kernel.
So theoretically for the container networking use-case , vSwitch in kernel
can achieve better performance and CPU utilization than any vSwitch over
dpdk. (VPP or OvS)
Unless a memory map can be used here to save the copy (userspace to kernel
and kernel to userspace)
Best Regards
Avi
> -Original Message-
> From: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io [mailto:vpp-dev@lists.fd.io] On Behalf Of Ray
Kinsella
> Sent: Friday, 16 February, 2018 4:52 PM
> To: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io
> Subject: Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux
> containers
>
> Hi Avi,
>
> So the "not compatible" comment is something I would like to understand a
bit
> more?
>
> Are you typically running DPDK/VPP based or Socket based applications
inside
> your containers?
>
> Our perspective is that userspace networking is also equally good for
> Container/Cloud Native - of course depending on what you are trying to
do. We
> have done a huge amount of work in both VPP and DPDK developing
> technologies to help like MemIF (including libmemif), Virtio-User,
FastTap,
> Master-VM, Contiv-VPP etc to help in this regard.
>
> What a container is - ultimately - is a silo'ing of CPU, memory and IO
resources
> for both Kernel and Userspace processes, but there is nothing in this
forces us
> to choose Kernel over Userspace networking.
>
> The way we typically handle Containers networking for both VPP/DPDK is for
> packets to flow directly between userspace processes - no kernel required.
> Where VPP runs in the default namespace possibly as a vSwitch or vRouter,
and
> switches packets to containers running DPDK/VPP etc, all achieved in
> userspace. We also provide the Master-VM approach and/or FastTAP or
> AF_PACKET to punt the packets into the Kernel when required.
>
> We test the the performance of aspects of this such as Memif regularly -
> results are available here.
>
>
https://docs.fd.io/csit/rls1710/report/vpp_performance_tests/packet_throughp
> ut_graphs/container_memif.html#ndr-throughput
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray K
>
>
> On 13/02/2018 14:04, Avi Cohen (A) wrote:
> > Hello
> > Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for container
> networking.
> >
> > Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense that
> container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at VPP-DPDK
> at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down to
the
> kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt can
be
> forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel.
> >
> > I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working' stage.
> > Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of this
vhost-
> user for containers ?
> >
> > Best Regards
> > Avi
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Thank you Ray dpdk is not running in the container - this is customer container and I cannot force the customer to use dpdk. Regarding the "not compatible" - I mean pkts received at vpp user-space, destined to C1 (container) , should be copied to the kernel and then to C1 IP-stack (e.g. AF_PACKET interface ) , while this copy can be saved if my vSwitch is running in kernel. So theoretically for the container networking use-case , vSwitch in kernel can achieve better performance and CPU utilization than any vSwitch over dpdk. (VPP or OvS) Unless a memory map can be used here to save the copy (userspace to kernel and kernel to userspace) Best Regards Avi > -Original Message- > From: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io [mailto:vpp-dev@lists.fd.io] On Behalf Of Ray > Kinsella > Sent: Friday, 16 February, 2018 4:52 PM > To: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io > Subject: Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux > containers > > Hi Avi, > > So the "not compatible" comment is something I would like to understand a bit > more? > > Are you typically running DPDK/VPP based or Socket based applications inside > your containers? > > Our perspective is that userspace networking is also equally good for > Container/Cloud Native - of course depending on what you are trying to do. We > have done a huge amount of work in both VPP and DPDK developing > technologies to help like MemIF (including libmemif), Virtio-User, FastTap, > Master-VM, Contiv-VPP etc to help in this regard. > > What a container is - ultimately - is a silo'ing of CPU, memory and IO > resources > for both Kernel and Userspace processes, but there is nothing in this forces > us > to choose Kernel over Userspace networking. > > The way we typically handle Containers networking for both VPP/DPDK is for > packets to flow directly between userspace processes - no kernel required. > Where VPP runs in the default namespace possibly as a vSwitch or vRouter, and > switches packets to containers running DPDK/VPP etc, all achieved in > userspace. We also provide the Master-VM approach and/or FastTAP or > AF_PACKET to punt the packets into the Kernel when required. > > We test the the performance of aspects of this such as Memif regularly - > results are available here. > > https://docs.fd.io/csit/rls1710/report/vpp_performance_tests/packet_throughp > ut_graphs/container_memif.html#ndr-throughput > > Thanks, > > Ray K > > > On 13/02/2018 14:04, Avi Cohen (A) wrote: > > Hello > > Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for container > networking. > > > > Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense that > container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at VPP-DPDK > at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down to the > kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt can be > forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel. > > > > I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working' stage. > > Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of this vhost- > user for containers ? > > > > Best Regards > > Avi > > > > > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#8251): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/message/8251 View All Messages In Topic (7): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/topic/11144798 Mute This Topic: https://lists.fd.io/mt/11144798/21656 New Topic: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/post Change Your Subscription: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/editsub/21656 Group Home: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev Contact Group Owner: vpp-dev+ow...@lists.fd.io Terms of Service: https://lists.fd.io/static/tos Unsubscribe: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/unsub -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Hi Avi, So the "not compatible" comment is something I would like to understand a bit more? Are you typically running DPDK/VPP based or Socket based applications inside your containers? Our perspective is that userspace networking is also equally good for Container/Cloud Native - of course depending on what you are trying to do. We have done a huge amount of work in both VPP and DPDK developing technologies to help like MemIF (including libmemif), Virtio-User, FastTap, Master-VM, Contiv-VPP etc to help in this regard. What a container is - ultimately - is a silo'ing of CPU, memory and IO resources for both Kernel and Userspace processes, but there is nothing in this forces us to choose Kernel over Userspace networking. The way we typically handle Containers networking for both VPP/DPDK is for packets to flow directly between userspace processes - no kernel required. Where VPP runs in the default namespace possibly as a vSwitch or vRouter, and switches packets to containers running DPDK/VPP etc, all achieved in userspace. We also provide the Master-VM approach and/or FastTAP or AF_PACKET to punt the packets into the Kernel when required. We test the the performance of aspects of this such as Memif regularly - results are available here. https://docs.fd.io/csit/rls1710/report/vpp_performance_tests/packet_throughput_graphs/container_memif.html#ndr-throughput Thanks, Ray K On 13/02/2018 14:04, Avi Cohen (A) wrote: Hello Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for container networking. Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense that container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at VPP-DPDK at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down to the kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt can be forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel. I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working' stage. Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of this vhost-user for containers ? Best Regards Avi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#8240): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/message/8240 View All Messages In Topic (6): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/topic/11144798 Mute This Topic: https://lists.fd.io/mt/11144798/21656 New Topic: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/post Change Your Subscription: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/editsub/21656 Group Home: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev Contact Group Owner: vpp-dev+ow...@lists.fd.io Terms of Service: https://lists.fd.io/static/tos Unsubscribe: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/unsub -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Avi: You have got to some level with a virtio-user interface, in the backend, it does allow OVS-DPDK (or VPP, but not tested) talked to the container guest with the virtio interface, There was a proposal to merge that interface to VPP community. But it does not fly much with the memif context, the mail archive is moving to the new place, the google search cannot help me to identify the mail thread yet. The performance will be similar as the OVS-DPDK for the container use case. A few interesting link are provided here. https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3098583.3098586 (Paper) https://schd.ws/hosted_files/lc3china2017/22/Danny%20Zhou_High%20Performance%20Container%20Networking_v4.pdf https://schd.ws/hosted_files/ossna2017/1e/VPP_K8S_GTPU_OSSNA.pdf http://dpdk.org/doc/guides/howto/virtio_user_for_container_networking.html (DPDK Doc) https://github.com/lagopus/lagopus/blob/master/docs/how-to-use-virtio-user.md (Lagopus view) -Original Message- From: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io [mailto:vpp-dev@lists.fd.io] On Behalf Of Avi Cohen (A) Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 1:08 AM To: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io Subject: Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers Thank you Jarome I'm working with LXC , but should be applied for docker as well I can connect the container through a virtio-user port in VPP, and a tap interface in kernel But we pay for a vhost kthread that is copying data from kernel to user space and viceversa. Another option is to connect with veth pair - but the performance is further degraded Another issue is how VPP interface with sandbox? Best Regards Avi > -Original Message- > From: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io [mailto:vpp-dev@lists.fd.io] On Behalf Of > Jerome Tollet > Sent: Tuesday, 13 February, 2018 11:27 PM > To: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io > Cc: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io > Subject: Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux > containers > > Hi Avi, > Can you elaborate a bit on the kind of containers you'd like to run. > Interfaces exposed to containers may be different if you are looking > to run regular endpoints vs cVNF. > Jerome > > Le 13/02/2018 15:04, « vpp-dev@lists.fd.io au nom de Avi Cohen (A) » > a écrit : > > Hello > Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for > container networking. > > Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense > that container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at > VPP-DPDK > at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down to the > kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt > can be forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel. > > I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working' stage. > Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of > this vhost-user for containers ? > > Best Regards > Avi > > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#8235): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/message/8235 View All Messages In Topic (5): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/topic/11144798 Mute This Topic: https://lists.fd.io/mt/11144798/21656 New Topic: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/post Change Your Subscription: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/editsub/21656 Group Home: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev Contact Group Owner: vpp-dev+ow...@lists.fd.io Terms of Service: https://lists.fd.io/static/tos Unsubscribe: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/unsub -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Hi Avi,
There may be a terminology issue here:
-vhost-user interfaces are used between VPP and QEMU for fast communications.
It doesn't involve Linux kernel at all.
-in VPP 18.01, we've added support for virtionet (tap v2 interfaces). In this
case VPP "plays" the usual role of QEMU. This new interfaces are quite
efficient. In this model, skbuff created by Linux kernel cannot be mapped to
user space. However, Linux makes it possible to create skbuff where data is
located in the mmaped memory region. As a result, packets created by VPP do not
require copy to be injected in the kernel.
-Anyway, packet copy is not a real bottleneck here. We did an experimental
patch where VPP support GRO/GSO with tapv2. 2 containers were running iperf and
the bottleneck was tcp stack...
Jerome
Le 14/02/2018 09:08, « Avi Cohen (A) » a écrit :
Thank you Jarome
I'm working with LXC , but should be applied for docker as well
I can connect the container through a virtio-user port in VPP, and a tap
interface in kernel
But we pay for a vhost kthread that is copying data from kernel to user
space and viceversa.
Another option is to connect with veth pair - but the performance is
further degraded
Another issue is how VPP interface with sandbox?
Best Regards
Avi
> -Original Message-
> From: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io [mailto:vpp-dev@lists.fd.io] On Behalf Of Jerome
> Tollet
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 February, 2018 11:27 PM
> To: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io
> Cc: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io
> Subject: Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux
> containers
>
> Hi Avi,
> Can you elaborate a bit on the kind of containers you'd like to run.
> Interfaces exposed to containers may be different if you are looking to
run
> regular endpoints vs cVNF.
> Jerome
>
> Le 13/02/2018 15:04, « vpp-dev@lists.fd.io au nom de Avi Cohen (A) » d...@lists.fd.io au nom de avi.co...@huawei.com> a écrit :
>
> Hello
> Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for container
> networking.
>
> Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense
that
> container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at VPP-DPDK
> at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down to
the
> kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt can
be
> forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel.
>
> I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working'
stage.
> Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of this
> vhost-user for containers ?
>
> Best Regards
> Avi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Thank you Jarome I'm working with LXC , but should be applied for docker as well I can connect the container through a virtio-user port in VPP, and a tap interface in kernel But we pay for a vhost kthread that is copying data from kernel to user space and viceversa. Another option is to connect with veth pair - but the performance is further degraded Another issue is how VPP interface with sandbox? Best Regards Avi > -Original Message- > From: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io [mailto:vpp-dev@lists.fd.io] On Behalf Of Jerome > Tollet > Sent: Tuesday, 13 February, 2018 11:27 PM > To: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io > Cc: vpp-dev@lists.fd.io > Subject: Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux > containers > > Hi Avi, > Can you elaborate a bit on the kind of containers you'd like to run. > Interfaces exposed to containers may be different if you are looking to run > regular endpoints vs cVNF. > Jerome > > Le 13/02/2018 15:04, « vpp-dev@lists.fd.io au nom de Avi Cohen (A) » d...@lists.fd.io au nom de avi.co...@huawei.com> a écrit : > > Hello > Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for container > networking. > > Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense that > container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at VPP-DPDK > at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down to the > kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt can be > forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel. > > I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working' stage. > Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of this > vhost-user for containers ? > > Best Regards > Avi > > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#8207): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/message/8207 View All Messages In Topic (3): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/topic/11144798 Mute This Topic: https://lists.fd.io/mt/11144798/21656 New Topic: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/post Change Your Subscription: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/editsub/21656 Group Home: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev Contact Group Owner: vpp-dev+ow...@lists.fd.io Terms of Service: https://lists.fd.io/static/tos Unsubscribe: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/unsub -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [vpp-dev] VPP vs XDP-eBPF performance numbers - for linux containers
Hi Avi, Can you elaborate a bit on the kind of containers you'd like to run. Interfaces exposed to containers may be different if you are looking to run regular endpoints vs cVNF. Jerome Le 13/02/2018 15:04, « vpp-dev@lists.fd.io au nom de Avi Cohen (A) » a écrit : Hello Are there 'numbers' for performance - VPP vs XDP-eBPF for container networking. Since the DPDK and linux-containers are not compatible, is a sense that container and host share the same kernel - hence pkts received at VPP-DPDK at user-space and directed to a linux container - should be go down to the kernel and then to the container ip-stack, while in XDP-eBPF this pkt can be forward to the container ip-stack directly from the kernel. I heard that a vhostuser interface for containers is 'in-working' stage. Can anyone assist with the performance numbers and the status of this vhost-user for containers ? Best Regards Avi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#8201): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/message/8201 View All Messages In Topic (2): https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/topic/11144798 Mute This Topic: https://lists.fd.io/mt/11144798/21656 New Topic: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/post Change Your Subscription: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/editsub/21656 Group Home: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev Contact Group Owner: vpp-dev+ow...@lists.fd.io Terms of Service: https://lists.fd.io/static/tos Unsubscribe: https://lists.fd.io/g/vpp-dev/unsub -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
