Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Ryosuke Niwa]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Ali Juma  wrote:
>
> Just wanted to check what the current recommended approach is for new WPT
> tests. Is it now ok to add new tests directly in
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests and then upstream them, or
> should tests still be added elsewhere first (in LayoutTests/http/wpt?),
> upstreamed, and then moved into LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests?

No, we don't have a consensus to start landing tests directly into
WebKit at the moment. Please land the tests in web-platform-tests
repository first.

- R. Niwa
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

Hi Ali,

I think it is valuable to upload a patch containing source code changes
with the new/modified WPT tests covering these changes.
I would recommend to do the GitHub submission in parallel and add a
reference to the GitHub PR in WebKit bugzilla.
Ideally, the GitHub PR would be merged before the WebKit patch is committed.
y

Le mar. 11 juil. 2017 à 16:14, Ali Juma  a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to check what the current recommended approach is for new WPT
> tests. Is it now ok to add new tests directly in
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests and then upstream them, or
> should tests still be added elsewhere first (in LayoutTests/http/wpt?),
> upstreamed, and then moved into LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-
> platform-tests?
>
> Thanks,
> Ali
>
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 11:14 PM youenn fablet  wrote:
>
>> Filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172435 about that
>>
>>
>> Le dim. 21 mai 2017 à 00:40, Maciej Stachowiak  a écrit :
>>
>>> On May 18, 2017, at 2:08 PM, Philip Jägenstedt 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 5:38 PM youenn fablet  wrote:
>>>

 There was a suggestion that LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests
 be moved to a shorter path like LayoutTests/web-platform-tests. That would
 also make it clear that this folder is not only about one-way-sync.

>>>
>>> In Blink we renamed it to LayoutTests/external/wpt/ to avoid the "read
>>> only" implications of the old name.
>>>
>>>
>>> If we go forward with two-way sync, I think this is a good name.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Maciej
>>>
>>>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Ali Juma]

Hi all,

Just wanted to check what the current recommended approach is for new WPT
tests. Is it now ok to add new tests directly in
LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests and then upstream them, or
should tests still be added elsewhere first (in LayoutTests/http/wpt?),
upstreamed, and then moved into LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests?

Thanks,
Ali

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 11:14 PM youenn fablet  wrote:

> Filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172435 about that
>
>
> Le dim. 21 mai 2017 à 00:40, Maciej Stachowiak  a écrit :
>
>> On May 18, 2017, at 2:08 PM, Philip Jägenstedt  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 5:38 PM youenn fablet  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> There was a suggestion that LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests
>>> be moved to a shorter path like LayoutTests/web-platform-tests. That would
>>> also make it clear that this folder is not only about one-way-sync.
>>>
>>
>> In Blink we renamed it to LayoutTests/external/wpt/ to avoid the "read
>> only" implications of the old name.
>>
>>
>> If we go forward with two-way sync, I think this is a good name.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Maciej
>>
>>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

Filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172435 about that


Le dim. 21 mai 2017 à 00:40, Maciej Stachowiak  a écrit :

> On May 18, 2017, at 2:08 PM, Philip Jägenstedt  wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 5:38 PM youenn fablet  wrote:
>
>>
>> There was a suggestion that LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests
>> be moved to a shorter path like LayoutTests/web-platform-tests. That would
>> also make it clear that this folder is not only about one-way-sync.
>>
>
> In Blink we renamed it to LayoutTests/external/wpt/ to avoid the "read
> only" implications of the old name.
>
>
> If we go forward with two-way sync, I think this is a good name.
>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
>
>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Maciej Stachowiak]

> On May 18, 2017, at 2:08 PM, Philip Jägenstedt  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 5:38 PM youenn fablet  > wrote:
> 
> There was a suggestion that LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests be 
> moved to a shorter path like LayoutTests/web-platform-tests. That would also 
> make it clear that this folder is not only about one-way-sync.
> 
> In Blink we renamed it to LayoutTests/external/wpt/ to avoid the "read only" 
> implications of the old name.

If we go forward with two-way sync, I think this is a good name.

Regards,
Maciej


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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

> > Sure, it is good to test conformance, but there is no longer regression
> > testing on the deprecated feature behavior itself.
> > Ideally, this would require tighter syncing between the browsers. Might
> have
> > positive and/or negative consequences.
>
> I don't think we should be changing anything about our process to
> deprecate a feature based on changes to web platform tests or its
> limitations.
>

Agreed.


>
> If web platform tests end up deleting tests that we decide to continue
> to support, we should keep them elsewhere in WebKit repository instead
> of deleting those features.
>

Exactly, we should be ready for those cases.
When doing a full resync, it is just impossible to check whether each
modification is about feature removal.


> I would most vocally and strongly oppose to making any feature or
> policy decisions in WebKit solely based on changes to or processes in
> web platform tests.
>
> - R. Niwa
>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Ryosuke Niwa]

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 10:17 AM, youenn fablet  wrote:
>
>
> Le ven. 19 mai 2017 à 09:44, Anne van Kesteren  a écrit :
>>
>> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 5:11 PM, youenn fablet  wrote:
>> > When a spec gets updated, the WPT tests will ideally be updated at the
>> > same
>> > time.
>> > The updated tests will no longer ensure non-regression until the browser
>> > implements the new behavior.
>>
>> Ideally if importing test updates results in failures those end up
>> being tracked as new bugs. I realize that's not how it works today,
>> but that's how it should work I think.
>
>
> Right, and that is very good as long as there is effort to match the
> implementation with the spec.
> Until the bug is fixed, regressions related to the no-longer compliant
> behavior might not be caught by WPT.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > The same applies to deprecated features for which WPT tests might be
>> > removed
>> > for instance.
>>
>> In this case it's expected that a "historical" test is added that
>> tests the feature isn't supported, so there's still coverage.
>
>
> Sure, it is good to test conformance, but there is no longer regression
> testing on the deprecated feature behavior itself.
> Ideally, this would require tighter syncing between the browsers. Might have
> positive and/or negative consequences.

I don't think we should be changing anything about our process to
deprecate a feature based on changes to web platform tests or its
limitations.

If web platform tests end up deleting tests that we decide to continue
to support, we should keep them elsewhere in WebKit repository instead
of deleting those features.

I would most vocally and strongly oppose to making any feature or
policy decisions in WebKit solely based on changes to or processes in
web platform tests.

- R. Niwa
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

Le ven. 19 mai 2017 à 09:44, Anne van Kesteren  a écrit :

> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 5:11 PM, youenn fablet  wrote:
> > When a spec gets updated, the WPT tests will ideally be updated at the
> same
> > time.
> > The updated tests will no longer ensure non-regression until the browser
> > implements the new behavior.
>
> Ideally if importing test updates results in failures those end up
> being tracked as new bugs. I realize that's not how it works today,
> but that's how it should work I think.
>

Right, and that is very good as long as there is effort to match the
implementation with the spec.
Until the bug is fixed, regressions related to the no-longer compliant
behavior might not be caught by WPT.


>
>
> > The same applies to deprecated features for which WPT tests might be
> removed
> > for instance.
>
> In this case it's expected that a "historical" test is added that
> tests the feature isn't supported, so there's still coverage.
>

Sure, it is good to test conformance, but there is no longer regression
testing on the deprecated feature behavior itself.
Ideally, this would require tighter syncing between the browsers. Might
have positive and/or negative consequences.
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Anne van Kesteren]

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 5:11 PM, youenn fablet  wrote:
> When a spec gets updated, the WPT tests will ideally be updated at the same
> time.
> The updated tests will no longer ensure non-regression until the browser
> implements the new behavior.

Ideally if importing test updates results in failures those end up
being tracked as new bugs. I realize that's not how it works today,
but that's how it should work I think.


> The same applies to deprecated features for which WPT tests might be removed
> for instance.

In this case it's expected that a "historical" test is added that
tests the feature isn't supported, so there's still coverage.


> I don't know what WPT can do there. This issue is probably limited in
> practice.

Modifying tests doesn't happen often, but it definitely does happen
and it would be nice if infrastructure accounted for it. (I've often
added additional assertions or additional tests to an existing
resource.)


-- 
https://annevankesteren.nl/
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

Le jeu. 18 mai 2017 à 05:09, Philip Jägenstedt  a écrit :

>
>> FWIW, I think it makes sense to treat wpt as both regression tests and
> conformance tests. They're regression tests because they can in fact catch
> regressions. And they're conformance tests because they're supposed to be
> derived from the specs, and that should be true of local modifications as
> well if they're intended to be upstreamed.
>
>
When a spec gets updated, the WPT tests will ideally be updated at the same
time.
The updated tests will no longer ensure non-regression until the browser
implements the new behavior.
The same applies to deprecated features for which WPT tests might be
removed for instance.
I don't know what WPT can do there. This issue is probably limited in
practice.
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Ryosuke Niwa]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Konstantin Tokarev  wrote:
>
>
> 16.05.2017, 17:54, "Michael Catanzaro" :
>> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:01 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:
>>>  Hi all,
>>>
>>>  Youenn is working on a patch to automatically create a GitHub PR to
>>>  export tests from a WebKit patch which includes changes to
>>>  web-platform-tests [1].
>>>
>>>  That raises a question as to where we should put new tests or modified
>>>  tests intended to be exported to web-platform-tests from WebKit.
>>
>> Whatever you wind up doing, it would be helpful to add a README
>> somewhere that explains the workflow, so the process doesn't turn into
>> folklore only known to the developers who work on it regularly and
>> those who read this mailing list thread.
>
> I think it would also be useful to add wiki page to "Layout Tests" section

With all likelihood, we'd just update webkit.org or the wiki. We don't
typically write a README for things like this.

- R. Niwa
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Konstantin Tokarev]

16.05.2017, 17:54, "Michael Catanzaro" :
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:01 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:
>>  Hi all,
>>
>>  Youenn is working on a patch to automatically create a GitHub PR to
>>  export tests from a WebKit patch which includes changes to
>>  web-platform-tests [1].
>>
>>  That raises a question as to where we should put new tests or modified
>>  tests intended to be exported to web-platform-tests from WebKit.
>
> Whatever you wind up doing, it would be helpful to add a README
> somewhere that explains the workflow, so the process doesn't turn into
> folklore only known to the developers who work on it regularly and
> those who read this mailing list thread.

I think it would also be useful to add wiki page to "Layout Tests" section

>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael
>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

That is a fair point!
For importing tests, effort was done to ease the use of the
import-w3c-tests script.
Documentation should be in "Tools/Scripts/import-w3c-tests --help"
I will be happy to beef it up based on suggestions.
y

Le mar. 16 mai 2017 à 07:55, Michael Catanzaro  a
écrit :

> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:01 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Youenn is working on a patch to automatically create a GitHub PR to
> > export tests from a WebKit patch which includes changes to
> > web-platform-tests [1].
> >
> > That raises a question as to where we should put new tests or modified
> > tests intended to be exported to web-platform-tests from WebKit.
>
> Whatever you wind up doing, it would be helpful to add a README
> somewhere that explains the workflow, so the process doesn't turn into
> folklore only known to the developers who work on it regularly and
> those who read this mailing list thread.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael
>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

Le lun. 15 mai 2017 à 23:15, Maciej Stachowiak  a écrit :

>
> On May 15, 2017, at 9:08 PM, youenn fablet  wrote:
>
> I see two main cases:
> - Writer of the patch is making sure to upstream WPT test changes at
> WebKit landing time. It is ok to make the changes directly in
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/
> - Writer plans to upstream WPT test changes at some point but wants more
> time. It is better to develop the tests in LayoutTests/http/wpt and then
> migrate them later on.
>
>
> My proposal was different from either of these, it was to have a directory
> specifically for tests meant to be upstreamed (LayoutTests/http/wpt should
> contain only tests not meant
>

The possibility to have LayoutTests/http/wpt/to-be-imported was mentionned
previously.
I think it makes sense to run to-be-imported tests behind WPT as this is
the way they will end up being run when upstreamed.


>
> I think adding new tests directly to
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/ is needlessly messy. Most
> stuff in the imported/ directory is an exact copy of an upstream test
> suite, so if you run only a specific directory of tests, you know you are
> running an official conformance suite. With this proposal, it might also
> contain random tests that will hopefully be upstreamed but maybe not, or
> might be changed before the PR lands upstream, or might get renamed, or
> whatever. There's no guarantee that updating from the official version will
> ever fully resolve the delta.
>

LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests is mostly about regression
testing.
For conformance testing, it is probably more accurate to either use
w3c-test.org (probably not reliable enough though) or make a clone of W3C
WPT, do the set up as specified in their README (etc/hosts...) and use
wptrunner.


>
> I think it would be more elegant to have a parallel directory
> (LayoutTests/for-export/w3c/web-platform-tests). Then when something is
> actually upstreamed and then pulled back down, we could delete the staged
> version. Directly modifying our local copy seems like it could easily lead
> to long-term divergences slipping through the cracks.
>

A parallel directory is fine when starting a test suite.
Often, changes are limited to modifying a test, which might be best done
in-place.
Often, adding a test is easier by adding it in an already existing file.

Tooling should protect us from diverging.
Authoring in LayoutTests/for-export/w3c/web-platform-tests might not allow
you to use WPT tools and common resources.
At upstream time, reviewers will probably tell to use that and that
existing resource.

There is agreement that a imported/w3c/web-platform-test layout test change
that lands in WebKit can be merged upstreamed.
I am not sure what would be the process with
LayoutTests/for-export/w3c/web-platform-tests tests.


>
> Of course, people could always go run the official copy from w3c-test.org .
> But we usually leave imported conformance test suites unmodified except the
> minimum necessary to make them run.
>
> I would start with an experimental phase with some of us making direct
> changes in LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/.
> When we are happy with the tools and think the risk for issues is low
> enough (or when the bots can handle most of it for us), hacking
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/ could be the default.
>
>
> I think the problem with this plan is not tools risk, it's the fact that a
> directory of imported tests can no longer be trusted to actually just be
> imported tests. So a smaller number of people doing it to start would not
> address my concern. It might be that other people don't care about this. My
> opinion counts no more than anyone else's, and I'd be interested in hearing
> from others.
>

I am not sure to understand precisely what the consequences of "imported
tests can no longer be trusted to actually just be imported tests" are.
Ideally, a WPT test change landing in WebKit should be merged at the same
time on W3C WPT.

There was a suggestion that LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests be
moved to a shorter path like LayoutTests/web-platform-tests. That would
also make it clear that this folder is not only about one-way-sync.


>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
>
> Le lun. 15 mai 2017 à 21:02, Ryosuke Niwa  a écrit :
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Youenn is working on a patch to automatically create a GitHub PR to
>> export tests from a WebKit patch which includes changes to
>> web-platform-tests [1].
>>
>> That raises a question as to where we should put new tests or modified
>> tests intended to be exported to web-platform-tests from WebKit.
>>
>> I think the most obvious option is to use
>> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/.  However, in the other
>> thread about adopting testharness.js (titled Another WPT bite), Maciej
>> briefly expressed the preference for creating a new directory:
>> 

Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:01 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:

Hi all,

Youenn is working on a patch to automatically create a GitHub PR to
export tests from a WebKit patch which includes changes to
web-platform-tests [1].

That raises a question as to where we should put new tests or modified
tests intended to be exported to web-platform-tests from WebKit.


Whatever you wind up doing, it would be helpful to add a README 
somewhere that explains the workflow, so the process doesn't turn into 
folklore only known to the developers who work on it regularly and 
those who read this mailing list thread.


Thanks,

Michael

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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[Maciej Stachowiak]

> On May 15, 2017, at 9:08 PM, youenn fablet  wrote:
> 
> I see two main cases:
> - Writer of the patch is making sure to upstream WPT test changes at WebKit 
> landing time. It is ok to make the changes directly in 
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/
> - Writer plans to upstream WPT test changes at some point but wants more 
> time. It is better to develop the tests in LayoutTests/http/wpt and then 
> migrate them later on.

My proposal was different from either of these, it was to have a directory 
specifically for tests meant to be upstreamed (LayoutTests/http/wpt should 
contain only tests not meant

I think adding new tests directly to 
LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/ is needlessly messy. Most stuff in 
the imported/ directory is an exact copy of an upstream test suite, so if you 
run only a specific directory of tests, you know you are running an official 
conformance suite. With this proposal, it might also contain random tests that 
will hopefully be upstreamed but maybe not, or might be changed before the PR 
lands upstream, or might get renamed, or whatever. There's no guarantee that 
updating from the official version will ever fully resolve the delta. 

I think it would be more elegant to have a parallel directory 
(LayoutTests/for-export/w3c/web-platform-tests). Then when something is 
actually upstreamed and then pulled back down, we could delete the staged 
version. Directly modifying our local copy seems like it could easily lead to 
long-term divergences slipping through the cracks.

Of course, people could always go run the official copy from w3c-test.org 
 . But we usually leave imported conformance test suites 
unmodified except the minimum necessary to make them run.

> I would start with an experimental phase with some of us making direct 
> changes in LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/.
> When we are happy with the tools and think the risk for issues is low enough 
> (or when the bots can handle most of it for us), hacking 
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/ could be the default.

I think the problem with this plan is not tools risk, it's the fact that a 
directory of imported tests can no longer be trusted to actually just be 
imported tests. So a smaller number of people doing it to start would not 
address my concern. It might be that other people don't care about this. My 
opinion counts no more than anyone else's, and I'd be interested in hearing 
from others.

Regards,
Maciej

> 
> Le lun. 15 mai 2017 à 21:02, Ryosuke Niwa  > a écrit :
> Hi all,
> 
> Youenn is working on a patch to automatically create a GitHub PR to
> export tests from a WebKit patch which includes changes to
> web-platform-tests [1].
> 
> That raises a question as to where we should put new tests or modified
> tests intended to be exported to web-platform-tests from WebKit.
> 
> I think the most obvious option is to use
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/.  However, in the other
> thread about adopting testharness.js (titled Another WPT bite), Maciej
> briefly expressed the preference for creating a new directory:
> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2017-May/029022.html 
> 
> 
> Do other people have strong opinions about this?
> 
> - R. Niwa
> 
> [1] https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=169462 
> 
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Re: [webkit-dev] Where do we put WPT tests to be exported

[youenn fablet]

I see two main cases:
- Writer of the patch is making sure to upstream WPT test changes at WebKit
landing time. It is ok to make the changes directly in
LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/
- Writer plans to upstream WPT test changes at some point but wants more
time. It is better to develop the tests in LayoutTests/http/wpt and then
migrate them later on.

I would start with an experimental phase with some of us making direct
changes in LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/.
When we are happy with the tools and think the risk for issues is low
enough (or when the bots can handle most of it for us), hacking
LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/ could be the default.

Le lun. 15 mai 2017 à 21:02, Ryosuke Niwa  a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> Youenn is working on a patch to automatically create a GitHub PR to
> export tests from a WebKit patch which includes changes to
> web-platform-tests [1].
>
> That raises a question as to where we should put new tests or modified
> tests intended to be exported to web-platform-tests from WebKit.
>
> I think the most obvious option is to use
> LayoutTests/imported/w3c/web-platform-tests/.  However, in the other
> thread about adopting testharness.js (titled Another WPT bite), Maciej
> briefly expressed the preference for creating a new directory:
> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2017-May/029022.html
>
> Do other people have strong opinions about this?
>
> - R. Niwa
>
> [1] https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=169462
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