subject:"\[webkit\-dev\] Transformations precision\: double \- float"

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-10-15 Thread Benjamin Poulain

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Gabor Rapcsanyi wrote:

>  On 10/12/2012 11:23 AM, Tom Hudson wrote:
>
> Do you have particular bottleneck functions that you have reason to
> believe would benefit from ARM SIMD optimizations? Under what
> workloads, and how much benefit?
>
> We've see a few ridiculously expensive transform functions in WebKit
> that my colleagues in Chapel Hill might be able to recall, but usually
> it's the rendering engines that are hot, not WebKit itself.
>
>  Yes, you're right that the rendering engine is usually the basic
> bottleneck,
> but why shouldn't we optimize WebKit where it is possible.
> For example the function what you asking is
> TransformationMatrix::multiply().
> I made a test which could be speed up with optimizing this matrix
> multiplication.
> I uploaded here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98913
>

You are suggesting a massive change to WebKit based on an hypothetical
universe in which a certain function is important.
The problem is the same claim can be done for about any function of WebKit.
You can handcraft a microbenchmark exercising a slow function and redesign
everything to make that particular function fast. Does this add a lot of
value to the project? No so much.

As much as I am in favor of increasing the use of SIMD, especially on ARM,
I am really not a fan of the idea of switching to float on such weak
premises.

Benjamin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-10-15 Thread Gabor Rapcsanyi


On 10/12/2012 11:23 AM, Tom Hudson wrote:

Do you have particular bottleneck functions that you have reason to
believe would benefit from ARM SIMD optimizations? Under what
workloads, and how much benefit?

We've see a few ridiculously expensive transform functions in WebKit
that my colleagues in Chapel Hill might be able to recall, but usually
it's the rendering engines that are hot, not WebKit itself.

Yes, you're right that the rendering engine is usually the basic bottleneck,
but why shouldn't we optimize WebKit where it is possible.
For example the function what you asking is 
TransformationMatrix::multiply().
I made a test which could be speed up with optimizing this matrix 
multiplication.

I uploaded here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98913

We have seen places where double math appears to be absolutely
required for correctness: matrix inversion and path convexity testing;
there are some other areas we're experimenting with that seem to
require it as well. You'd probably need to survey WebKit for stability
(or just hack in doubles and run layout tests) to see how many other
places will break if you throw away the extra precision.

I tried it in the Qt port and there were just a few (47) layout fails with
0.0 and -0.0 problems and one or two pixel differences. But we need more
investigations here.

The rest of Chromium's renderer (Skia) uses float, and we've deployed
SSE/NEON and played with float vs double quite a bit there. The
float->double conversion at the WebKit/Skia boundary doesn't seem to
be too much of a drag, but doing it in any sort of inner loop can
really kill performance.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of places where switching from ARM assembly
to NEON in the renderer hasn't given us as much win as we'd hoped for,
which is why the question "how much benefit?" seems important to
answer before spending too much time polishing a set of typedefs.

Tom

I can say the same as above. If there is a way to optimize WebKit,
but the benefit is just a half or one percent on an avrage page now
or maybe less, why shouldn't we do that, and of course on a specific
page/case we would benefit more.

-Gabor



On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Gabor Rapcsanyi
 wrote:

Yes I agree that we need to do some measures to see the benefits of floats.
But it's not just about the performance and memory gain of the floats, I
would like to make ARM SIMD optimizations for the transformation functions
to fasten up them, but ARM NEON technology only works with floats that's why
I want to change the doubles.
I would prefer a typedef solution to make this configurable as Ryosuke said,
and then the ports could chose whether they need floats, doubles or long
doubles.

- Gabor


On Oct 10, 2012, at 9:00 AM, Gabor Rapcsanyi 
wrote:


That was a long time ago and there were no objections

Unless there's something in the spec requiring double precision it makes
sense to move away from double precision throughout WebKit.

I’m a little concerned about this.

The programming interface to the graphics system on OS X uses doubles, so
it’s likely we’ll be introducing float to double conversions for at least
that platform if we change things inside WebKit that are currently doubles
to float en masse.

Similarly, the native data type for numbers in JavaScript is double. So
any time we are passing a number from JavaScript to WebKit it’s likely that
additional double to float conversions will be required as we change
internals to use doubles instead of floats.

On the other hand, there may also be performance boost or memory gains
from using float instead of double.

If we do make this change, I think we need to do performance testing as we
do so, perhaps on more than one platform, to see if these changes are
leading to benefits or not.

I also think that “we should always use float unless a spec mandates
double” is probably not the right rule of thumb. There are many factors
other than “a spec” at play here.

-- Darin


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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-10-12 Thread Gabor Rapcsanyi


Yes I agree that we need to do some measures to see the benefits of floats.
But it's not just about the performance and memory gain of the floats, I 
would like to make ARM SIMD optimizations for the transformation 
functions to fasten up them, but ARM NEON technology only works with 
floats that's why I want to change the doubles.
I would prefer a typedef solution to make this configurable as Ryosuke 
said, and then the ports could chose whether they need floats, doubles 
or long doubles.


- Gabor

On Oct 10, 2012, at 9:00 AM, Gabor Rapcsanyi  wrote:


That was a long time ago and there were no objections

Unless there's something in the spec requiring double precision it makes sense 
to move away from double precision throughout WebKit.

I’m a little concerned about this.

The programming interface to the graphics system on OS X uses doubles, so it’s 
likely we’ll be introducing float to double conversions for at least that 
platform if we change things inside WebKit that are currently doubles to float 
en masse.

Similarly, the native data type for numbers in JavaScript is double. So any 
time we are passing a number from JavaScript to WebKit it’s likely that 
additional double to float conversions will be required as we change internals 
to use doubles instead of floats.

On the other hand, there may also be performance boost or memory gains from 
using float instead of double.

If we do make this change, I think we need to do performance testing as we do 
so, perhaps on more than one platform, to see if these changes are leading to 
benefits or not.

I also think that “we should always use float unless a spec mandates double” is 
probably not the right rule of thumb. There are many factors other than “a 
spec” at play here.

-- Darin


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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-10-11 Thread Darin Adler

On Oct 10, 2012, at 9:00 AM, Gabor Rapcsanyi  wrote:

> That was a long time ago and there were no objections

>> Unless there's something in the spec requiring double precision it makes 
>> sense to move away from double precision throughout WebKit.

I’m a little concerned about this.

The programming interface to the graphics system on OS X uses doubles, so it’s 
likely we’ll be introducing float to double conversions for at least that 
platform if we change things inside WebKit that are currently doubles to float 
en masse.

Similarly, the native data type for numbers in JavaScript is double. So any 
time we are passing a number from JavaScript to WebKit it’s likely that 
additional double to float conversions will be required as we change internals 
to use doubles instead of floats.

On the other hand, there may also be performance boost or memory gains from 
using float instead of double.

If we do make this change, I think we need to do performance testing as we do 
so, perhaps on more than one platform, to see if these changes are leading to 
benefits or not.

I also think that “we should always use float unless a spec mandates double” is 
probably not the right rule of thumb. There are many factors other than “a 
spec” at play here.

-- Darin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-10-10 Thread Gabor Rapcsanyi


Hello!

That was a long time ago and there were no objections so I made a bug 
for the further discussions and patches:

https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98913

Regards,
  Gabor


What CPU executes single precision floating point values at the same speed as 
double precision?

Here's a benchmark from NASA giving a comparison of single vs. double precision 
performance for one of their simulations. 
https://modelingguru.nasa.gov/docs/DOC-1664.

Single precision maps better to GPU backends, and CPU's SIMD computations than 
double. Unless there's something in the spec requiring double precision it 
makes sense to move away from double precision throughout WebKit.

It's fairly trivial to make SIMD types that can have CPU architecture specific 
implementations. As an example of how to do this in the wild there's the Sony 
vectormath library that's present in the Bullet Physics Library.
http://bullet.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bullet/trunk/Extras/vectormathlibrary/include/vectormath/.

As Kui noted the TransformationMatrix is a hotspot that could be helped by 
SIMD. Making the solution generic enough to target multiple architectures using 
SIMD should help the performance on all the platforms.

Don

-Original Message-
From: webkit-dev-boun...@lists.webkit.org 
[mailto:webkit-dev-boun...@lists.webkit.org] On Behalf Of Simon Fraser
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 10:35 AM
To: Zoltan Herczeg
Cc: webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

TransformationMatrix started out as floats, then got changed to doubles in 
<http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/40761>

This was done because on most hardware there is no penalty for using doubles 
over floats, and provided a better match with our system APIs that used doubles.

I'd prefer to take a forward-looking stance here, and assume that in time 
hardware will catch up.

Simon

On May 21, 2012, at 4:04 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote:


Hi,

is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We
could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be
floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would
have no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower precision?

Regards,
Zoltan


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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-05-22 Thread Olmstead, Don

What CPU executes single precision floating point values at the same speed as 
double precision?

Here's a benchmark from NASA giving a comparison of single vs. double precision 
performance for one of their simulations. 
https://modelingguru.nasa.gov/docs/DOC-1664.

Single precision maps better to GPU backends, and CPU's SIMD computations than 
double. Unless there's something in the spec requiring double precision it 
makes sense to move away from double precision throughout WebKit.

It's fairly trivial to make SIMD types that can have CPU architecture specific 
implementations. As an example of how to do this in the wild there's the Sony 
vectormath library that's present in the Bullet Physics Library. 
http://bullet.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bullet/trunk/Extras/vectormathlibrary/include/vectormath/.

As Kui noted the TransformationMatrix is a hotspot that could be helped by 
SIMD. Making the solution generic enough to target multiple architectures using 
SIMD should help the performance on all the platforms.

Don

-Original Message-
From: webkit-dev-boun...@lists.webkit.org 
[mailto:webkit-dev-boun...@lists.webkit.org] On Behalf Of Simon Fraser
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 10:35 AM
To: Zoltan Herczeg
Cc: webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

TransformationMatrix started out as floats, then got changed to doubles in 
<http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/40761>

This was done because on most hardware there is no penalty for using doubles 
over floats, and provided a better match with our system APIs that used doubles.

I'd prefer to take a forward-looking stance here, and assume that in time 
hardware will catch up.

Simon

On May 21, 2012, at 4:04 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We 
> could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be 
> floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would 
> have no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower 
> precision?
> 
> Regards,
> Zoltan
> 
> 
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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-05-22 Thread Wasim Abbas

Would something like this work for testing in short term?

template 
class TransformationMatrix_T
{
T data[16];
};


typedef TransformationMatrix TransformationMatrix_T;

typedef TransformationMatrixD TransformationMatrix_T;

..
Wasim

-Original Message-
From: webkit-dev-boun...@lists.webkit.org 
[mailto:webkit-dev-boun...@lists.webkit.org] On Behalf Of kui zheng
Sent: 22 May 2012 14:04
To: Stephen Chenney
Cc: webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Hi, I have the same questions. Using float,  It's easier to map to
OGLES2, Decrease memory usage and accelerated using ARM SIMD.
if you do profiling for CSS transformation/Animation, you'll find
TransformationMatrix hotspots that should be well optimized  using
NEON.

-Kuii

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Stephen Chenney  wrote:
> Ideally WebKit would avoid casts by consistently using either double or
> floats everywhere a floating point representation is needed. I don't think
> it's as simple as adding a typedef, but maybe it is. In any event it would
> have to be spelled out in the style guide.
>
> My gut feeling is that floats are enough for web layout, and map better onto
> GPU back ends where bandwidth (memory) really matters. Is there anything in
> the specs that force one or the other, or both? Is there a compelling web
> content scenario that demands double precision?
>
> Stephen.
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you can add a typedef in Platform.h to make it configurable? e.g.
>> maybe you want to be able to use long double instead of regular double in
>> the future.
>>
>> - Ryosuke
>>
>> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Simon Fraser 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> TransformationMatrix started out as floats, then got changed to doubles
>>> in <http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/40761>
>>>
>>> This was done because on most hardware there is no penalty for using
>>> doubles over floats, and provided a better match with our system APIs that
>>> used doubles.
>>>
>>> I'd prefer to take a forward-looking stance here, and assume that in time
>>> hardware will catch up.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> On May 21, 2012, at 4:04 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We
>>> > could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be
>>> > floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would
>>> > have
>>> > no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower
>>> > precision?
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Zoltan
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
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>>> > http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
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>>
>>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-05-22 Thread kui zheng

Hi, I have the same questions. Using float,  It's easier to map to
OGLES2, Decrease memory usage and accelerated using ARM SIMD.
if you do profiling for CSS transformation/Animation, you'll find
TransformationMatrix hotspots that should be well optimized  using
NEON.

-Kuii

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Stephen Chenney  wrote:
> Ideally WebKit would avoid casts by consistently using either double or
> floats everywhere a floating point representation is needed. I don't think
> it's as simple as adding a typedef, but maybe it is. In any event it would
> have to be spelled out in the style guide.
>
> My gut feeling is that floats are enough for web layout, and map better onto
> GPU back ends where bandwidth (memory) really matters. Is there anything in
> the specs that force one or the other, or both? Is there a compelling web
> content scenario that demands double precision?
>
> Stephen.
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you can add a typedef in Platform.h to make it configurable? e.g.
>> maybe you want to be able to use long double instead of regular double in
>> the future.
>>
>> - Ryosuke
>>
>> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Simon Fraser 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> TransformationMatrix started out as floats, then got changed to doubles
>>> in 
>>>
>>> This was done because on most hardware there is no penalty for using
>>> doubles over floats, and provided a better match with our system APIs that
>>> used doubles.
>>>
>>> I'd prefer to take a forward-looking stance here, and assume that in time
>>> hardware will catch up.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> On May 21, 2012, at 4:04 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We
>>> > could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be
>>> > floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would
>>> > have
>>> > no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower
>>> > precision?
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Zoltan
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > webkit-dev mailing list
>>> > webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
>>> > http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-05-21 Thread Stephen Chenney

Ideally WebKit would avoid casts by consistently using either double or
floats everywhere a floating point representation is needed. I don't think
it's as simple as adding a typedef, but maybe it is. In any event it would
have to be spelled out in the style guide.

My gut feeling is that floats are enough for web layout, and map better
onto GPU back ends where bandwidth (memory) really matters. Is there
anything in the specs that force one or the other, or both? Is there a
compelling web content scenario that demands double precision?

Stephen.

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:

> Maybe you can add a typedef in Platform.h to make it configurable? e.g.
> maybe you want to be able to use long double instead of regular double in
> the future.
>
> - Ryosuke
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Simon Fraser wrote:
>
>> TransformationMatrix started out as floats, then got changed to doubles
>> in 
>>
>> This was done because on most hardware there is no penalty for using
>> doubles over floats, and provided a better match with our system APIs that
>> used doubles.
>>
>> I'd prefer to take a forward-looking stance here, and assume that in time
>> hardware will catch up.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> On May 21, 2012, at 4:04 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We
>> > could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be
>> > floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would
>> have
>> > no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower
>> precision?
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Zoltan
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
>> > http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-05-21 Thread Ryosuke Niwa

Maybe you can add a typedef in Platform.h to make it configurable? e.g.
maybe you want to be able to use long double instead of regular double in
the future.

- Ryosuke

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Simon Fraser wrote:

> TransformationMatrix started out as floats, then got changed to doubles in
> 
>
> This was done because on most hardware there is no penalty for using
> doubles over floats, and provided a better match with our system APIs that
> used doubles.
>
> I'd prefer to take a forward-looking stance here, and assume that in time
> hardware will catch up.
>
> Simon
>
> On May 21, 2012, at 4:04 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We
> > could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be
> > floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would
> have
> > no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower
> precision?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Zoltan
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-05-21 Thread Simon Fraser

TransformationMatrix started out as floats, then got changed to doubles in 

This was done because on most hardware there is no penalty for using doubles 
over floats, and provided a better match with our system APIs that used doubles.

I'd prefer to take a forward-looking stance here, and assume that in time 
hardware will catch up.

Simon

On May 21, 2012, at 4:04 AM, Zoltan Herczeg wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We
> could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be
> floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would have
> no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower precision?
> 
> Regards,
> Zoltan
> 
> 
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[webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

2012-05-21 Thread Zoltan Herczeg

Hi,

is there any reason why the transformations in WebKit use doubles? We
could optimize some functions further with ARM SIMD if they would be
floats. Is there any objection to make them float if the change would have
no other side effects except some rounding because of the lower precision?

Regards,
Zoltan


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Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

Re: [webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

[webkit-dev] Transformations precision: double -> float

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