[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-16 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #53 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #44)
 We will run a script blanking the messages on Wikimedia production wikis.

I've run this (Steven did a few that the script couldn't handle on my account).

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-16 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #54 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #53)
 I've run this (Steven did a few that the script couldn't handle on my
 account).

I ran the script under my account, then Steven did/is doing the manual ones
under his own account.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #51 from Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #48)
 (In reply to comment #47)
  (In reply to comment #45)
   Should 'loginstart' and 'loginend' be restored for consistency
   as well? (bug 47883)
  
  I don't know.  The use cases are not the same.  Some wikis need people to
  agree
  to terms on signing up, but the same does not usually apply to every login.
 
 I know companies that put warnings on logins (including servers that only one
 single person uses) for their computer systems, I wouldn't be surprised if
 end
 projects such as wikis could be done the same way.

As someone who worked for the US government, I can verify this is used (as I've
personally added it on government wikis).

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #52 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
In my view, this bug report and the related change sets were a complete fucking
waste of time. Steven and his team were explicitly told in April 2013 that
removing these messages would be problematic and they decided to ignore that.

We've now released MediaWiki 1.22 with the sign up messages, but without the
login messages, causing an unnecessary functionality regression. In addition,
we've seen (perhaps for the first time since Gerrit was set up) someone
actively abusing the ability to mark a commit with -2. All in all, neither
Wikimedia nor MediaWiki's finest moment. Ugh.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-06 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #45 from Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com ---
Should 'loginstart' and 'loginend' be restored for consistency
as well? (bug 47883)

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-06 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #46 from Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org ---
Change 97185 merged by jenkins-bot:
Restore Signupstart and Signupend messages for account creation

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/97185

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-06 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #47 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #45)
 Should 'loginstart' and 'loginend' be restored for consistency
 as well? (bug 47883)

I don't know.  The use cases are not the same.  Some wikis need people to agree
to terms on signing up, but the same does not usually apply to every login.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-06 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #48 from p858snake p858sn...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #47)
 (In reply to comment #45)
  Should 'loginstart' and 'loginend' be restored for consistency
  as well? (bug 47883)
 
 I don't know.  The use cases are not the same.  Some wikis need people to
 agree
 to terms on signing up, but the same does not usually apply to every login.

I know companies that put warnings on logins (including servers that only one
single person uses) for their computer systems, I wouldn't be surprised if end
projects such as wikis could be done the same way.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-06 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Target Milestone|1.22.0 release  |1.22.x release

--- Comment #49 from Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org ---
[Bumping TM as MediaWiki 1.22.0 tarball was released today.]

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-06 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|PATCH_TO_REVIEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED
   Target Milestone|1.22.x release  |1.22.0 release

--- Comment #50 from Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com ---
The fix was merged into both 1.22 and master.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-04 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #44 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
We've decided to okay restoring signupstart and signupend to core.  It's true
that third-party wikis have different UX considerations, which may result in a
different conclusion in this case.

We will run a script blanking the messages on Wikimedia production wikis.  We
may protect them in the future.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #42 from Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it ---
For those tuning in now, I've skimmed the gerrit discussion (which I wasn't
following) and despite many added words nothing needs to be added to the TL;DR
in comment 37.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #43 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #0)
 Just as bad is that the removal of this message is not documented at
 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Account_creation_user_experience/Strings ,
 which might cause problems for third-party wikis upgrading to 1.22.

To be clear, this was an unintentional documentation error.  We already have a
Trello task to fix this once the core situation is finalized.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-02 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Derk-Jan Hartman hartman.w...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||hartman.w...@gmail.com

--- Comment #39 from Derk-Jan Hartman hartman.w...@gmail.com ---
@Raimond: On that front, i guess we probably need a release note with the exact
names of the messages that are replacing the loginstart/end/https messages as
detailed by Matthew.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-02 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #40 from Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org ---
Change 97192 merged by MarkAHershberger:
Restore Signupstart and Signupend messages for account creation

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/97192

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-02 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #41 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
While I have the browser tabs open...

* loginend was added in r2359
* loginend was expanded to loginend and signupend in r11896
* loginstart was added in r26477
* signupstart was added in r71095

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-12-01 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Raimond Spekking raimond.spekk...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugzilla.wikimedia.
   ||org/show_bug.cgi?id=47883

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-30 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Target Milestone|--- |1.22.x release

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-30 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|High|Highest
 CC||federicol...@tiscali.it
   Target Milestone|1.22.x release  |1.22.0 release
   Severity|normal  |major

--- Comment #36 from Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it ---
Updating milestone per
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-November/073290.html

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-30 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #37 from Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it ---
(In reply to comment #35)
 We'll attempt to address this in the next MW release, but for now, I'll try
 to
 get I79423c1a05f0359c902d1940c3ffcd5e509dcf97 integrated into core.

TL;DR from comments there: some don't like MediaWiki:Signupstart to be
reinstated because they're too lazy to blank it on Wikimedia wikis directly,
and changing message name is so much easier.

According to https://toolserver.org/~pathoschild/globalgroups/#staff , 46 users
have the technical power to go through all those Wikimedia wikis and edit the
message, reaching their goal without bothering tens of thousands third party
installations. Please don't waste time in useless discussions and just use your
[edit] buttons. Thanks.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-30 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #38 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
Nemo, thanks for the suggestion.  I've referred to it on Gerrit.  I think that
+ using isDisabled() to prevent display of the message should be acceptable.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #35 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
(In reply to comment #34)
 This means that in addition to being a breaking change (that continues to be
 undocumented at [[mw:Account creation user experience/Strings]]

After spending the time to using git bisect to find the change, I notice this
problem and meant to note it here.  Thanks for pointing that out, MZ.

Markus Glaser has pointed out that it isn't uncommon for people who ask Hallo
Welt! to set up MediaWiki for them to also request that the account creation
process be modified.

We'll attempt to address this in the next MW release, but for now, I'll try to
get I79423c1a05f0359c902d1940c3ffcd5e509dcf97 integrated into core.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #33 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #32)
 (In reply to comment #26)
 Also found on commons:
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart
 
 (In reply to comment #27)
 http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart
 
 (In reply to comment #29)
 http://www.dissociative-identity-disorder.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart
 
 These examples show exactly the kind of content that suggested to us that
 this message is being abused, where it's used at all.

This comment is idiotic. There are three examples above. One
(commons.wikimedia.org) you admit below is quite helpful. Another
(pirateparty.org) is literally two sentences that explains to users how to seek
help if they have trouble creating an account. I'll reproduce it below for
posterity:

---
If you are having trouble creating an account, please, contact us, and we will
help create one for you.

You can also ask for help in IRC.
---

The third (dissociative-identity-disorder.net) is in fact a wall of text and
could be considered abuse only by someone with the loosest grasp of the English
language.

I can't do much more than repeat what I said in April 2013, quoted above in
comment 3. This was a bullshit breaking change.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #34 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
For the record, MediaWiki:Signupstart and MediaWiki:Signupend were removed in
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/67233 by S Page and Matt Flaschen. The
messages were left in messages.inc, MessagesEn.php, and MessagesQqq.php, but
the calling code was removed. Rather than being called directly from
includes/specials/SpecialUserlogin.php, the messages were called from
includes/templates/Userlogin.php and includes/templates/Usercreate.php.

This means that in addition to being a breaking change (that continues to be
undocumented at [[mw:Account creation user experience/Strings]], which is
referenced from the 1.22 release notes), this particular change is especially
annoying to track down because:

* it uses a template system that no other part of the site interface uses and
* the message keys still exist in 1.22, however they're simply not used
anywhere.

I'd forgotten why I was so annoyed earlier this year at this series of changes
by the now-defunct E3 team and I've now re-remembered what an unacceptable,
shameful, and apparently unsupervised development process took place. I hope
this issue can be corrected prior to the release of 1.22.0 final.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #25 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
Mark: there's also MediaWiki:Signupend. I'm not sure if one or both messages
were removed. Thank you for poking at this! I really appreciate it.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||m...@everybody.org

--- Comment #26 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
Also found on commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #27 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #28 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
http://secret-wiki.de/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #29 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
http://www.dissociative-identity-disorder.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #30 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
http://lexikon.freenet.de/MediaWiki:Signupstart?action=edit

(Ok, I'll stop now.  It looks like ~10% of those I've checked have modified
this message.)

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #31 from Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org ---
Just noticed that the last one seems to be scrapping dewiki.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #32 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #26)
 Also found on commons:
 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart

(In reply to comment #27)
 http://pirateparty.org.au/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart

(In reply to comment #29)
 http://www.dissociative-identity-disorder.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Signupstart

These examples show exactly the kind of content that suggested to us that this
message is being abused, where it's used at all. Giving a space to outline all
rules and edge cases of account creation on the signup form is the worst of
both worlds: The people who should read it generally don't, and the people who
don't need to read it are hampered by the wall of text. 

The Commons version of signupstart is quite helpful, but is outdated. It's part
of a process of post-signup onboarding that is no longer given to users.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||m...@uberbox.org

--- Comment #4 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #0)
 MediaWiki:Signupstart contains the following text:
 
 By creating an account in this project and/or using other wmflabs.org
 Services, you agree to comply with the Terms of Use for wmflabs.org. In
 particular, you agree not to collect, store, or share private data or
 personally identifiable information, such as user names, passwords, or IP
 addresses from the individuals using your Labs Project, except when complying
 with the conditions listed in the Terms of Use.
 
 Unfortunately, this legal notice seems to not be shown at
 Special:CreateAccount, probably because of the recent login form changes.

Do we know that the Terms of Use actually have to be presented on registration?

Currently the practice in MediaWiki sites is to put a link in the footer, which
provides a persistent link for all users of a wiki, not just those signing up. 

Ryan, Coren: thoughts? 

If we need to put in a default blank message for legal disclaimers, let's do
that and name the message appropriately. We very well might support other
projects that have this same use case. 

I'm very much open to putting in new MediaWiki messages *where a clear use case
arises*. I think it's bad idea to build in generalized dump all warnings,
rules, and instruction cruft here messages.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #5 from Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org ---
It's not clear to me that they /have/ to be presented on registration, but I
sure as hell think it's extraordinarily bad practice to not show it since the
positive act by the user (creating the account) is intended to bind them to the
agreement.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #6 from Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com ---
Legal asked us to put it on the registration page.

And WTF. Why is this considered a new message? It was an existing message that
was simply stripped from the new form.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #7 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #6)
 Legal asked us to put it on the registration page.
 
 And WTF. Why is this considered a new message? It was an existing message
 that
 was simply stripped from the new form.

Nobody else was using the message as a required legal disclaimer. This is
precisely why generic bucket-o-stuff messages are a bad idea.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #8 from p858snake p858sn...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #7)
 Nobody else was using the message as a required legal disclaimer. This is
 precisely why generic bucket-o-stuff messages are a bad idea.

You know this how? There is a world outside of WMF hosted wikis…

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #9 from Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #7)
 (In reply to comment #6)
  Legal asked us to put it on the registration page.
  
  And WTF. Why is this considered a new message? It was an existing message
  that
  was simply stripped from the new form.
 
 Nobody else was using the message as a required legal disclaimer. This is
 precisely why generic bucket-o-stuff messages are a bad idea.

I'd be very surprised if one of the messages removed wasn't being used as a
legal disclaimer by a third party wiki. We're working on a software package
being used by tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people. If we're only
considering ourselves when making changes we're failing.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #10 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #8)
 (In reply to comment #7)
  Nobody else was using the message as a required legal disclaimer. This is
  precisely why generic bucket-o-stuff messages are a bad idea.
 
 You know this how? There is a world outside of WMF hosted wikis…

Obviously I wasn't referring to non-Wikimedia wikis. There's no way to know
what everyone with a third party install is or isn't doing with MediaWiki.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #11 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #9)
 (In reply to comment #7)
  (In reply to comment #6)
   Legal asked us to put it on the registration page.
   
   And WTF. Why is this considered a new message? It was an existing message
   that
   was simply stripped from the new form.
  
  Nobody else was using the message as a required legal disclaimer. This is
  precisely why generic bucket-o-stuff messages are a bad idea.
 
 I'd be very surprised if one of the messages removed wasn't being used as a
 legal disclaimer by a third party wiki. We're working on a software package
 being used by tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people. If we're only
 considering ourselves when making changes we're failing.

Sorry, but I'm not going to consider the infinite number of third party use
cases in this bug. That's not what our donors give money for, and it's not what
I nor the developers who recently redesigned account creation are paid to do.
MediaWiki is open source precisely so that if someone wants to put a new
MediaWiki message somewhere, they can build it for themselves.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #12 from p858snake p858sn...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #11)
 I nor the developers who recently redesigned account creation are paid to do.
 MediaWiki is open source precisely so that if someone wants to put a new
 MediaWiki message somewhere, they can build it for themselves.

Third party patching, What a lovely idea! something we already explicitly do
not support due to it being a stupid idea.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #13 from Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #11)
 (In reply to comment #9)
  (In reply to comment #7)
   (In reply to comment #6)
Legal asked us to put it on the registration page.

And WTF. Why is this considered a new message? It was an existing 
message
that
was simply stripped from the new form.
   
   Nobody else was using the message as a required legal disclaimer. This is
   precisely why generic bucket-o-stuff messages are a bad idea.
  
  I'd be very surprised if one of the messages removed wasn't being used as a
  legal disclaimer by a third party wiki. We're working on a software package
  being used by tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people. If we're only
  considering ourselves when making changes we're failing.
 
 Sorry, but I'm not going to consider the infinite number of third party use
 cases in this bug. That's not what our donors give money for, and it's not
 what
 I nor the developers who recently redesigned account creation are paid to do.
 MediaWiki is open source precisely so that if someone wants to put a new
 MediaWiki message somewhere, they can build it for themselves.

I'll be honest that this comment makes me want to go back and revert the gerrit
change for this. This is just about the worst thing you can say as a member of
an organization charged with supporting MediaWiki as an upstream. This is *not*
how open source software works.

Funny enough, I thought this was simply an oversight made during the
switchover, now I'm kind of pissed off. Just suck it up and design in a
solution to this problem and stop shitting on the third party users.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Kunal Mehta (Legoktm) legoktm.wikipe...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||legoktm.wikipe...@gmail.com
Version|unspecified |1.22rc
   Target Milestone|--- |1.22.x release

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #14 from Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org ---
(In reply to comment #11)
 Sorry, but I'm not going to consider the infinite number of third party use
 cases in this bug. That's not what our donors give money for, and it's not
 what
 I nor the developers who recently redesigned account creation are paid to do.
 MediaWiki is open source precisely so that if someone wants to put a new
 MediaWiki message somewhere, they can build it for themselves.

That makes absolutely no sense to me.  Showing a message/disclaimer on the
account signup is hardly a bizarre edge case; that (you thought) we don't use
it on our projects doesn't justify axing something which is reasonably useful
in many other cases.

Indeed, that we /do/ in fact use and need that message on Wikitech is a good
illustration that removing it preemptively was ill-advised.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #15 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #13)
 Funny enough, I thought this was simply an oversight made during the
 switchover, now I'm kind of pissed off. Just suck it up and design in a
 solution to this problem and stop shitting on the third party users.

I proposed a solution already in comment #4. To restate: Make a message like
MediaWiki:Signup-disclaimers message and set it to blank as default. Fill it in
on Labs. Problem solved.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #16 from p858snake p858sn...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #15)
 (In reply to comment #13)
  Funny enough, I thought this was simply an oversight made during the
  switchover, now I'm kind of pissed off. Just suck it up and design in a
  solution to this problem and stop shitting on the third party users.
 
 I proposed a solution already in comment #4. To restate: Make a message like
 MediaWiki:Signup-disclaimers message and set it to blank as default. Fill it
 in
 on Labs. Problem solved.

Or just reinstate the original message which is already filled in instead of
making a new message for it (Which I would be guessing the i18n would probably
prefer)

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #17 from Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #15)
 (In reply to comment #13)
  Funny enough, I thought this was simply an oversight made during the
  switchover, now I'm kind of pissed off. Just suck it up and design in a
  solution to this problem and stop shitting on the third party users.
 
 I proposed a solution already in comment #4. To restate: Make a message like
 MediaWiki:Signup-disclaimers message and set it to blank as default. Fill it
 in
 on Labs. Problem solved.

Right, so un-remove the thing that was already there most likely for reasons
just like this? Anyway, yes, that's an acceptable solution.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|1.22rc  |unspecified
   Target Milestone|1.22.x release  |---

--- Comment #18 from Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #16)
 (In reply to comment #15)
  (In reply to comment #13)
   Funny enough, I thought this was simply an oversight made during the
   switchover, now I'm kind of pissed off. Just suck it up and design in a
   solution to this problem and stop shitting on the third party users.
  
  I proposed a solution already in comment #4. To restate: Make a message like
  MediaWiki:Signup-disclaimers message and set it to blank as default. Fill it
  in
  on Labs. Problem solved.
 
 Or just reinstate the original message which is already filled in instead of
 making a new message for it (Which I would be guessing the i18n would
 probably
 prefer)

Third party users already using this message would likely prefer that too ;).

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #19 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #17)
 (In reply to comment #15)
  (In reply to comment #13)
   Funny enough, I thought this was simply an oversight made during the
   switchover, now I'm kind of pissed off. Just suck it up and design in a
   solution to this problem and stop shitting on the third party users.
  
  I proposed a solution already in comment #4. To restate: Make a message like
  MediaWiki:Signup-disclaimers message and set it to blank as default. Fill it
  in
  on Labs. Problem solved.
 
 Right, so un-remove the thing that was already there most likely for reasons
 just like this? Anyway, yes, that's an acceptable solution.

Making a message named something like signupstart that does not denote its
purpose is a terrible idea, which is why it was removed in the first place.
Every non-essential piece of text is a distraction and an impediment to people
signing up quickly and painlessly. This has a very real and lasting negative
impact on users of the signup form. 

There's an obvious need for adding legal disclaimers to the signup page on
Labs. Let's do that. There is not a clear use case for anything else. No one
has made clear why it's a good idea to have generic blank MediaWiki messages
lying around essential parts of Core. Encouraging site admins to add random
cruft to one of the most important forms on any wiki is not okay, which is
precisely why the message was removed.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #20 from Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #16)
 Or just reinstate the original message which is already filled in instead of
 making a new message for it (Which I would be guessing the i18n would
 probably prefer)

This sounds reasonable to me as well. If some Wikimedia wikis are abusing it,
please work with them about it instead of killing the message.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #21 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #11)
 Sorry, but I'm not going to consider the infinite number of third party use
 cases in this bug. That's not what our donors give money for, and it's not
 what I nor the developers who recently redesigned account creation are paid 
 to do.

To be clear, I did not ignore third party use cases when implementing this.  I
worked under the theory that the small, targeted messages and links we added
(e.g. createacct-helpusername, createacct-helpusername-link, and
createacct-imgcaptcha-help) would be enough to replace the long text at the
start and end, for MW wikis in general.

The idea was that inline placement and linking (instead of of long messages on
the page itself) would be more user-friendly and encourage concise messages.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #22 from Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org ---
(In reply to comment #21)
 The idea was that inline placement and linking (instead of of long messages
 on
 the page itself) would be more user-friendly and encourage concise messages.


There's a good case that can be made for this, but it's hardly our place to
make it on behalf of every potential Mediawiki user.  Make it not show by
default on our projects because our UX team estimates it will be beneficial? 
Excellent.  Remove the /capability/ to do otherwise because we *think* that
reasoning holds for everyon?  Not so much.

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #23 from Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org ---
Change 97185 had a related patch set uploaded by MarkAHershberger:
Restore MediaWiki:Signupstart for account creation

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/97185

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |PATCH_TO_REVIEW

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #24 from Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org ---
Change 97192 had a related patch set uploaded by MarkAHershberger:
Restore MediaWiki:Signupstart for account creation

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/97192

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

p858snake p858sn...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||code-update-regression
   Priority|Normal  |High
 CC||b...@mzmcbride.com,
   ||p858sn...@gmail.com,
   ||rlan...@gmail.com
  Component|wikitech-interface  |General/Unknown
   Assignee|rlan...@gmail.com   |wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.
   ||org
Product|Wikimedia Labs  |MediaWiki

--- Comment #1 from p858snake p858sn...@gmail.com ---
Bumping propriety, Moving from Labs - MediaWiki.

This message can contain important information which third party users may need
for a variety of different users (eg: Legal Notices come to mind).

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

--- Comment #3 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #2)

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/55847 as well.

From that changeset:

---
On the other hand, if a wiki wants to add that mountain of text, we can counsel
them not to, but we _cannot_ try to subvert them by removing utility functions
like header and footer messages. That will only lead to terrible hacks.
Sensible defaults should be in place for all MediaWiki messages, of course,
which can include having a blank default message.

Attempting subversion of this nature (such as removing interface messages) not
only harms the Wikimedia wikis, it harms all MediaWiki wikis, which is even
worse. Suddenly, as I see it, the English Wikipedia's poor interface decisions
are now negatively affecting everyone else, even though the English Wikipedia
is in fact wrong and should change.
---

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[Bug 56455] Text at MediaWiki:Signupstart not shown

2013-11-01 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56455

Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|Unprioritized   |Normal

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