Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-05 Thread Jane Darnell 
the
>>>> chapters and the education program do this, and of course the good and
>>>> Featured article processes. But we shouldn't be surprised that fewer
>>>> people
>>>> are staying on after their 100th or 1000th edit, as that is the stage in
>>>> their wiki career where they are likely to think that they will never
>>>> become a full member of the community.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan/WereSpielChequers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On 4 Mar 2015, at 19:19, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
>>>>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Anders Wennersten)
>>>>>3. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
>>>>>5. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Ricordisamoa)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:44:30 +0100
>>>>> From: Anders Wennersten 
>>>>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
>>>>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
>>>>> Message-ID: <54f7366e.6090...@anderswennersten.se>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>> On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made
>>>>> more then 38000 edits.
>>>>> Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making
>>>>> 97,7 still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only
>>>>> about
>>>>> 6 out of 10 is still active.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you
>>>>> are fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anders
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 18:05:42 +0100
>>>>> From: Gerard Meijssen 
>>>>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>> >>>> k7q...@mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>>>
>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>> I hope not.. If it were I am a basket case. Hmmm not Wikipedia ... does
>>>>> Wikidata count ? What number of edits would be sufficient ??
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>   GerardM
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4 March 2015 at 17:44, Anders Wennersten 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each
>>>>> made
>>>>>
>>>>>> more then 38000 edits.
>>>>>> Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making
>>>>>> 97,7
>>>>>> still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only about 6
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> of 10 is still active.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-05 Thread Anders Wennersten 
I deeply apologize. It is not easy with wordings when you are non native 
English. I meant to use a word meaning "member of an order" if now Order 
means the same in English as in Swedish. Or member in a collective group 
which share some common insights/experiences.


Of the 45 I mention 6 are female (13%) (yes of course we know each other 
so well). And of course these are just as active, respected etc as the men


Anders



Jane Darnell skrev den 2015-03-05 15:54:

Anders,
Very ironic to read the word "fraternity" here when we are in the middle of
the whole "Inspire campaign" launch, but I assume there are women in that
group and they are just "lost in translation"?
Jane

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Anders Wennersten 
wrote:


Very, very interesting to get a perspective from the biggest, svwp being a
small project.

You use the word "full member of the community" which I like. I would say
we 45 at svwp could be seen a a fraternity, we know each other rather well.
It will not be possible in the same way if you are 1144, but probably for
the 215 you mention

The fraternity  thinking has now for us also been extended into that no
block for more then a few hours (for cooling off)  is allowed for sysops
to  set on senior editors. Full members of community will only be blocked
longer then a day after a discussion by its peers . So no admin harassment
allowed when you have come into this level of seniority.  (and what the use
of blocking these, they come back anyway, under the same or another nick)

Anders







WereSpielChequers skrev den 2015-03-05 13:59:


On the English language Wikipedia we definitely have a phenomenon that
editors with high edit counts will stay until a major event drives them
away.

But the the threshold may not be 38,000 edits, we have 1,444 editor
accounts that have achieved that, and that may no longer be enough to
commit you to the site.

The 14 editors with 500,000 or more edits are all currently active, some
are still among the most active editors on the site. Though the active
definition on [[:en:WP:EDITS]] is merely one or more edits in the last 30
days.

Of the 215 most active editors, 32 are inactive for various reasons and 7
have anonymised themselves on the list of most active editors (though they
may be active). So 80-85% of our most active editors are still around.
Possibly more when you allow for the fact that at least one of those 32 has
closed that account and now edits from another one.

Sadly our admins have not been so likely to stay with us, only 579 are
still active as admins, though of the 1500 or so former admins quite a few
still edit.

Of course the length of tenure for both groups is likely to be unusual.
The vast majority of en wiki admins were appointed more than 7 years ago
and it takes time to accumulate a really high edit count. Though we have
fewer editors with over 100,000 edits than we have active admins, at
current rates that will change in 2016, in recent months we are seeing more
editors  do their 100,000th edit than become admins. I suspect one of our
problems is that we have fewer ways for newish editors to feel they have
become an established member of the community. To some extent GLAM, the
chapters and the education program do this, and of course the good and
Featured article processes. But we shouldn't be surprised that fewer people
are staying on after their 100th or 1000th edit, as that is the stage in
their wiki career where they are likely to think that they will never
become a full member of the community.

Regards

Jonathan/WereSpielChequers


  On 4 Mar 2015, at 19:19, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:

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Today's Topics:


   2. Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Anders Wennersten)
   3. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
   5. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Ricordisamoa)





Message: 2
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:44:30 +0100
From: Anders Wennersten 
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
Message-ID: <54f7366e.6090...@anderswennersten.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made
more then 38000 edits.
Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making
97,7 still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-05 Thread Jane Darnell 
Anders,
Very ironic to read the word "fraternity" here when we are in the middle of
the whole "Inspire campaign" launch, but I assume there are women in that
group and they are just "lost in translation"?
Jane

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Anders Wennersten 
wrote:

> Very, very interesting to get a perspective from the biggest, svwp being a
> small project.
>
> You use the word "full member of the community" which I like. I would say
> we 45 at svwp could be seen a a fraternity, we know each other rather well.
> It will not be possible in the same way if you are 1144, but probably for
> the 215 you mention
>
> The fraternity  thinking has now for us also been extended into that no
> block for more then a few hours (for cooling off)  is allowed for sysops
> to  set on senior editors. Full members of community will only be blocked
> longer then a day after a discussion by its peers . So no admin harassment
> allowed when you have come into this level of seniority.  (and what the use
> of blocking these, they come back anyway, under the same or another nick)
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WereSpielChequers skrev den 2015-03-05 13:59:
>
>> On the English language Wikipedia we definitely have a phenomenon that
>> editors with high edit counts will stay until a major event drives them
>> away.
>>
>> But the the threshold may not be 38,000 edits, we have 1,444 editor
>> accounts that have achieved that, and that may no longer be enough to
>> commit you to the site.
>>
>> The 14 editors with 500,000 or more edits are all currently active, some
>> are still among the most active editors on the site. Though the active
>> definition on [[:en:WP:EDITS]] is merely one or more edits in the last 30
>> days.
>>
>> Of the 215 most active editors, 32 are inactive for various reasons and 7
>> have anonymised themselves on the list of most active editors (though they
>> may be active). So 80-85% of our most active editors are still around.
>> Possibly more when you allow for the fact that at least one of those 32 has
>> closed that account and now edits from another one.
>>
>> Sadly our admins have not been so likely to stay with us, only 579 are
>> still active as admins, though of the 1500 or so former admins quite a few
>> still edit.
>>
>> Of course the length of tenure for both groups is likely to be unusual.
>> The vast majority of en wiki admins were appointed more than 7 years ago
>> and it takes time to accumulate a really high edit count. Though we have
>> fewer editors with over 100,000 edits than we have active admins, at
>> current rates that will change in 2016, in recent months we are seeing more
>> editors  do their 100,000th edit than become admins. I suspect one of our
>> problems is that we have fewer ways for newish editors to feel they have
>> become an established member of the community. To some extent GLAM, the
>> chapters and the education program do this, and of course the good and
>> Featured article processes. But we shouldn't be surprised that fewer people
>> are staying on after their 100th or 1000th edit, as that is the stage in
>> their wiki career where they are likely to think that they will never
>> become a full member of the community.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Jonathan/WereSpielChequers
>>
>>
>>  On 4 Mar 2015, at 19:19, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
>>>wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
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>>>wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>
>>>   2. Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Anders Wennersten)
>>>   3. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
>>>   5. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Ricordisamoa)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:44:30 +0100
>>> From: Anders Wennersten 
&g

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-05 Thread Anders Wennersten 
Very, very interesting to get a perspective from the biggest, svwp being 
a small project.


You use the word "full member of the community" which I like. I would 
say we 45 at svwp could be seen a a fraternity, we know each other 
rather well. It will not be possible in the same way if you are 1144, 
but probably for the 215 you mention


The fraternity  thinking has now for us also been extended into that no 
block for more then a few hours (for cooling off)  is allowed for sysops 
to  set on senior editors. Full members of community will only be 
blocked longer then a day after a discussion by its peers . So no admin 
harassment allowed when you have come into this level of seniority.  
(and what the use of blocking these, they come back anyway, under the 
same or another nick)


Anders







WereSpielChequers skrev den 2015-03-05 13:59:

On the English language Wikipedia we definitely have a phenomenon that editors 
with high edit counts will stay until a major event drives them away.

But the the threshold may not be 38,000 edits, we have 1,444 editor accounts 
that have achieved that, and that may no longer be enough to commit you to the 
site.

The 14 editors with 500,000 or more edits are all currently active, some are 
still among the most active editors on the site. Though the active definition 
on [[:en:WP:EDITS]] is merely one or more edits in the last 30 days.

Of the 215 most active editors, 32 are inactive for various reasons and 7 have 
anonymised themselves on the list of most active editors (though they may be 
active). So 80-85% of our most active editors are still around. Possibly more 
when you allow for the fact that at least one of those 32 has closed that 
account and now edits from another one.

Sadly our admins have not been so likely to stay with us, only 579 are still 
active as admins, though of the 1500 or so former admins quite a few still edit.

Of course the length of tenure for both groups is likely to be unusual. The 
vast majority of en wiki admins were appointed more than 7 years ago and it 
takes time to accumulate a really high edit count. Though we have fewer editors 
with over 100,000 edits than we have active admins, at current rates that will 
change in 2016, in recent months we are seeing more editors  do their 100,000th 
edit than become admins. I suspect one of our problems is that we have fewer 
ways for newish editors to feel they have become an established member of the 
community. To some extent GLAM, the chapters and the education program do this, 
and of course the good and Featured article processes. But we shouldn't be 
surprised that fewer people are staying on after their 100th or 1000th edit, as 
that is the stage in their wiki career where they are likely to think that they 
will never become a full member of the community.

Regards

Jonathan/WereSpielChequers



On 4 Mar 2015, at 19:19, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:

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Today's Topics:


  2. Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Anders Wennersten)
  3. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
  5. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Ricordisamoa)





Message: 2
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:44:30 +0100
From: Anders Wennersten 
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
Message-ID: <54f7366e.6090...@anderswennersten.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made
more then 38000 edits.
Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making
97,7 still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only about
6 out of 10 is still active.

Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you
are fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?


Anders







--

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 18:05:42 +0100
From: Gerard Meijssen 
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
Message-ID:
   
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hoi,
I hope not.. If it were I am a basket case. Hmmm not Wikipedia ... does
Wikidata count ? What number of edits would be sufficient ??
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 4 March 2015 at 17:44, Anders Wennersten 
wrote:


On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made
more then 38000 edi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-05 Thread WereSpielChequers 
On the English language Wikipedia we definitely have a phenomenon that editors 
with high edit counts will stay until a major event drives them away.

But the the threshold may not be 38,000 edits, we have 1,444 editor accounts 
that have achieved that, and that may no longer be enough to commit you to the 
site.

The 14 editors with 500,000 or more edits are all currently active, some are 
still among the most active editors on the site. Though the active definition 
on [[:en:WP:EDITS]] is merely one or more edits in the last 30 days.

Of the 215 most active editors, 32 are inactive for various reasons and 7 have 
anonymised themselves on the list of most active editors (though they may be 
active). So 80-85% of our most active editors are still around. Possibly more 
when you allow for the fact that at least one of those 32 has closed that 
account and now edits from another one.

Sadly our admins have not been so likely to stay with us, only 579 are still 
active as admins, though of the 1500 or so former admins quite a few still edit.

Of course the length of tenure for both groups is likely to be unusual. The 
vast majority of en wiki admins were appointed more than 7 years ago and it 
takes time to accumulate a really high edit count. Though we have fewer editors 
with over 100,000 edits than we have active admins, at current rates that will 
change in 2016, in recent months we are seeing more editors  do their 100,000th 
edit than become admins. I suspect one of our problems is that we have fewer 
ways for newish editors to feel they have become an established member of the 
community. To some extent GLAM, the chapters and the education program do this, 
and of course the good and Featured article processes. But we shouldn't be 
surprised that fewer people are staying on after their 100th or 1000th edit, as 
that is the stage in their wiki career where they are likely to think that they 
will never become a full member of the community.

Regards

Jonathan/WereSpielChequers


> On 4 Mar 2015, at 19:19, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
> 
> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
>   wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   wikimedia-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> 
>  2. Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Anders Wennersten)
>  3. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Gerard Meijssen)
>  5. Re: Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia (Ricordisamoa)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:44:30 +0100
> From: Anders Wennersten 
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
> Message-ID: <54f7366e.6090...@anderswennersten.se>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made 
> more then 38000 edits.
> Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making 
> 97,7 still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only about 
> 6 out of 10 is still active.
> 
> Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you 
> are fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?
> 
> 
> Anders
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 18:05:42 +0100
> From: Gerard Meijssen 
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Hoi,
> I hope not.. If it were I am a basket case. Hmmm not Wikipedia ... does
> Wikidata count ? What number of edits would be sufficient ??
> Thanks,
> GerardM
> 
> On 4 March 2015 at 17:44, Anders Wennersten 
> wrote:
> 
>> On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made
>> more then 38000 edits.
>> Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making 97,7
>> still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only about 6 out
>> of 10 is still active.
>> 
>> Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you are
>> fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?
>> 
>> 
>> Anders
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 18:19:24 +0100
> From: Ri

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-04 Thread Pine W 
Pinging Analytics to ask about editor longevity data (:

My understanding is that newbies (<= 10 edits) are more likely to disappear
early in their "careers" than they were 5 years ago, but that editors that
have been active for years are likely to remain active for years.

It would be interesting, as part of the strategic plan process, to work on
improving editor retention. I believe that this may be related to our
treatment and training of newcomers (onboarding, civility, NPP, Teahouse,
etc.) in addition to external changes in our environment (e.g. the rise of
Facebook).


Pine

*This is an Encyclopedia* 






*One gateway to the wide garden of knowledge, where lies The deep rock of
our past, in which we must delve The well of our future,The clear water we
must leave untainted for those who come after us,The fertile earth, in
which truth may grow in bright places, tended by many hands,And the broad
fall of sunshine, warming our first steps toward knowing how much we do not
know.*

*—Catherine Munro*

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Anders Wennersten 
wrote:

> On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made
> more then 38000 edits.
> Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making 97,7
> still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only about 6 out
> of 10 is still active.
>
> Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you are
> fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?
>
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-04 Thread Leigh Thelmadatter 
uy!  I have 77617. Can I excuse myself by saying that much of that is combined 
with my work as a teacher using WP with students?

> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 18:19:24 +0100
> From: ricordisa...@openmailbox.org
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia
> 
> Il 04/03/2015 17:44, Anders Wennersten ha scritto:
> > On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each 
> > made more then 38000 edits.
> > Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making 
> > 97,7 still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only 
> > about 6 out of 10 is still active.
> >
> > Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you 
> > are fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?
> >
> >
> > Anders
> >
> >
> I've just exceeded 38000 global edits 
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Ricordisamoa>. I'm 
> done for!
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-04 Thread Ricordisamoa 

Il 04/03/2015 17:44, Anders Wennersten ha scritto:
On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each 
made more then 38000 edits.
Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making 
97,7 still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only 
about 6 out of 10 is still active.


Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you 
are fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?



Anders


I've just exceeded 38000 global edits 
. I'm 
done for!

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-04 Thread Gerard Meijssen 
Hoi,
I hope not.. If it were I am a basket case. Hmmm not Wikipedia ... does
Wikidata count ? What number of edits would be sufficient ??
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 4 March 2015 at 17:44, Anders Wennersten 
wrote:

> On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made
> more then 38000 edits.
> Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making 97,7
> still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only about 6 out
> of 10 is still active.
>
> Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you are
> fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?
>
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Ciritical level for addiction to Wikipedia

2015-03-04 Thread Anders Wennersten 
On svwp there has over the years been 45 individuals who have each made 
more then 38000 edits.
Of these 45, 44 are still active, only one has  left (in 2009) making 
97,7 still around. For the users with less then 38 000 edits, only about 
6 out of 10 is still active.


Is this a global valid number, that when you have made 38000 edits you 
are fully addicted to Wikipedia ("until death do us part")?



Anders





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