Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
When one reads the links offered by Pavlo, the picture is clearer. The board is trying to suppress on-list criticism with this step, claiming people (no doubt including Pavlo) are trolls and spammers. I think we all know things are often not black and white, and that accusations of trolling are sometimes used by people to brand legitimate opponents (and sometimes people really are trolls). I can't presume to know whether Pavlo is a troll or not, or what the subtance of his criticism is, and how justified it may be. WMUA's current leadership elected to (try to) halt the debate rather than face the criticism (no doubt they have engaged in multiple previous rounds as well), and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they see fit. But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new mailing list. That's not what this is about. A. On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shev...@gmail.comwrote: WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change. The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for anybody else but WMUA members. I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation private information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise I decided that it's not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning. the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while what Nemo questioned is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapters? The main issue is what is work for you (and duties for Nemo)? The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their work (carry out their duties) and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work :) The Nemo mentioned and rights in his questioning, so I believe his perception is closer to mine (while critics or at least questioning - is one of the rights for me and I guess for Nemo as well). On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo: is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change. Does it seems appropriate? My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. So from my point of view it is really up to the community at WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate replacement or if another list is needed due to this change. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
I'm really grateful for your note, Asaf You comprehend my messages 100% right. Perhaps even more than that, as I'm just unable to verify whether I'm a troll (or not, hopefully). But as to the best of my belief I'm ready to face the fact, that I'm the troll (how can I know that for sure?) so I'm ready to stay against any criticism of being a troll - all kinds of 'duck test' etc., while our board prefers just to *halt the debate rather than face the **criticism* and said transformation of WMUA central mailing list is just one step in a row (a very long one - a chain of that multiple previous rounds). Well, I was not going to complain (or something like that) - I was mainly verifying the precedents as I assured other WMUA members that we have something unprecedented at all (in all Wikipedia movement at least). ...and I'm still not complaining :) Yes it's nobody else but we, WMUA people, should (Have to, MUST) overcome all tough issues by ourselves and a lot of that our problems are rooted in post-USSR situation (I was born in 1956, that's just 3 years after Stalin' death so I know what I'm talking about) hence they might appear to be pretty (or even too) ...*specific** *for Wikimedia CH (so for Manuel), WMNL (so for Ziko) etc. - with all due respect to Manuel, Ziko and others. And please, PLEASE don't think that WMUA is something very bad, and even not all of our Board members (we have 7 of them) have said problems with facing criticism ;) Now we're in 'full ahead' mode to start WLM'2013 and preparing to make our Wiki loves Earth (WLE) initiative [1][2][3] really international (it was presented in Hong Kong recently and they say it was estimated rather well) and ... and ... and ... as well ;) ___ Obviously I'm not closing the topic and all and every further comments, insights, ...peer reviews will be highly appreciated! Thanks again, Asaf!!! Sincerely, Pavlo Shevelo Proud member of WMUA [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Earth_2014 [2] http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/02/13/wikimedia-ukraine-new-photo-contest-wiki-loves-earth/ [3] http://wle.org.ua/english/ On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote: When one reads the links offered by Pavlo, the picture is clearer. The board is trying to suppress on-list criticism with this step, claiming people (no doubt including Pavlo) are trolls and spammers. I think we all know things are often not black and white, and that accusations of trolling are sometimes used by people to brand legitimate opponents (and sometimes people really are trolls). I can't presume to know whether Pavlo is a troll or not, or what the subtance of his criticism is, and how justified it may be. WMUA's current leadership elected to (try to) halt the debate rather than face the criticism (no doubt they have engaged in multiple previous rounds as well), and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they see fit. But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new mailing list. That's not what this is about. A. On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shev...@gmail.com wrote: WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change. The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for anybody else but WMUA members. I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation private information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise I decided that it's not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning. the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while what Nemo questioned is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapters? The main issue is what is work for you (and duties for Nemo)? The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their work (carry out their duties) and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work :) The Nemo mentioned and rights in his questioning, so I believe his perception is closer to mine (while critics or at least questioning - is one of the rights for me and I guess for Nemo as well). On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo: is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody
[Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
Dear all, as a member of the board in question, i would like to explain more But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new mailing list. That's not what this is about (q) A. yep. totally agree. this all is about usearching for transparent and convenient forms of communication/u especially within the chapter. but it is really difficult, it seems :(( (if possible at all) ...uand failing/u we (as a community) were discussing: - a new mailing list (with a public archive), for announcements - if it is open, than looking for volunteers is easier, as one can offer help even if (s)he is not a member of the organization - to leave this mailing list (the one, that was 'switched to 'read-only' mode' by the board's decision) for talking - there are some people that are used to solving problems by talking them[problems] out-of-their-wits with a fair lot of letters (so to say) - to use irc channel for those wishing to hear answers ASAP and without being drown by e-letters (and publish these logs afterwards) the need was not sudden, but it was too late expressed. it just irritates people to get lots of letters and it irritates them to hear something critical or unpleasant... unfortunately, people TEND to act on their irritation thus the above-mentioned Board decision was made... (...) and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they see fit (q) A. and i do believe so best regards, antanana wikimedia Ukraine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
I'm glad that antanana (she don't like capital letters as you can see :) ) joined our discussion. Now is her very first term in the Board (we reelect the board each year) and she brought a lot of 'fresh air' to our Board and proceeds to do so every day and even night (for example she sent her letter at 3:18 AM local time) as Chair deputy and Treasurer (very first one in history of WMUA) and valuable chapter member. ...and she is one of that board members who have no problem to face any issue (criticism included but critic of her activities should be well prepared and ... brave :-P). After I made some introduction of a lady I can return to the topic. I ask to forgive me in advance for some long explanation (my English will make it even less comprehensible, sorry for that) but I believe it might be a good case study for some other chapter(s) so please invest some your patience. Yes, antanana pointed perfectly well that damn 'lots of letters' was the trigger of the situation. But even better her input was in focusing our attention to two sorts/kinds of irritation (that is a state of inflammation or painful reaction to smth. as vocabularies inform): * it irritates people to get lots of letters (especially if people insists to use some mailers less sophisticated in letters grouping, 'foldering' and filtering that Google Mail and alikes) * it irritates them to hear something critical or unpleasant (to some people critical=extremelyunpleasant) In said case the first kind of irritation (inflammation) has place as a consequence of the above mentioned trigger (snowball of a letters), while the first one is much more valuable (for our case study) as cause of a letter snowball appearance. I do believe that many of you know how painful reaction to criticism might be the the cause of mailing 'explosion' (or turbulence will be better metaphor?) if not please see explanation in [1] because I'm just unable to explain better that that (if in English and not in Ukrainian or Russian). So in our case study two Board members were (and still are :) ) irritated by criticism addressed to certain (pointed by critics) their actions and conduct of behaviour (what caused mail turbulence again and again) while two more Board members were inflamed by letter 'snowballs' arriving to their mailboxes. Obviously 2+2 gives 4 (in Ukraine as well :-P) what is majority of 7 so position of 3 other Board members doesn't matter. Period. Sincerely, Pavlo Member of Wikimedia Ukraine [1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-July/127124.html (please read that text out of it context and see the idea of process of reaching unnecessary degree of escalation, when issue snowballs into something much larger) On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, attolippip attolip...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, as a member of the board in question, i would like to explain more But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new mailing list. That's not what this is about (q) A. yep. totally agree. this all is about usearching for transparent and convenient forms of communication/u especially within the chapter. but it is really difficult, it seems :(( (if possible at all) ...uand failing/u we (as a community) were discussing: - a new mailing list (with a public archive), for announcements - if it is open, than looking for volunteers is easier, as one can offer help even if (s)he is not a member of the organization - to leave this mailing list (the one, that was 'switched to 'read-only' mode' by the board's decision) for talking - there are some people that are used to solving problems by talking them[problems] out-of-their-wits with a fair lot of letters (so to say) - to use irc channel for those wishing to hear answers ASAP and without being drown by e-letters (and publish these logs afterwards) the need was not sudden, but it was too late expressed. it just irritates people to get lots of letters and it irritates them to hear something critical or unpleasant... unfortunately, people TEND to act on their irritation thus the above-mentioned Board decision was made... (...) and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they see fit (q) A. and i do believe so best regards, antanana wikimedia Ukraine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for
unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [
WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to
read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit
Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.
It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with
much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.
Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing
list from the times long before the said ruling are:
* 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director)
and
* 1 member of Audit Committee.
All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
it was done so (including formal and real causes motivations), this
person will have to go deep into struggle:
* for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
* against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
* ...etc.
and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.
Sincerely,
Pavlo Shevelo
(my WPnick is the same :))
[1]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua
[3] See the Talk page for [1]
[4]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013
Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why
URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the
idea, at least for [1], which is most important
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
Dear Pavlo, as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide how to use that list. For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there is WikiUK-l: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed by the concerned community. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36:
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do
the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to
discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members
of the chapters, as defined by the bylaws?
(One is not always easy to set up.)
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
it was done so (including formal and real causes motivations), this
person will have to go deep into struggle:
* for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
* against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
* ...etc.
So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the
board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher transparency than
in most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the
other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
Nemo
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo: is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change. Does it seems appropriate? My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. So from my point of view it is really up to the community at WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate replacement or if another list is needed due to this change. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
Hello,
This is actually a good question for
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Research/Survey_1
How do chapter boards make use of the board mailing list, and how about the
general mailing list of the association. Actually, the mailing list of
WMNL, Wikimedianl-l, doesn't show very much activity. Everyone can join and
post. But I can imagine scenarios in which a chapter decides to change that.
Kind regards
Ziko
Dr. Ziko van Dijk
voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
http://wikimedia.nl
2013/8/18 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shev...@gmail.com
According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for
unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [
WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to
read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit
Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.
It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with
much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.
Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing
list from the times long before the said ruling are:
* 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director)
and
* 1 member of Audit Committee.
All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
it was done so (including formal and real causes motivations), this
person will have to go deep into struggle:
* for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
* against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
* ...etc.
and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.
Sincerely,
Pavlo Shevelo
(my WPnick is the same :))
[1]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua
[3] See the Talk page for [1]
[4]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013
Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why
URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the
idea, at least for [1], which is most important
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
Oh Federico (or should I use Nemo as the name? :) ),
Seemingly you almost grasped (groked) what I'm talking about and that
almost is caused by my problems in English (it's not my native language
and I suffer from lack of practice :( ).
So we need some more clarification and let me start from the bottom up (as
of the text of your mail):
that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the board?
If it's public, then these is indeed higher transparency than in most
chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing);
Definitely NO, while we think (not only dream) about that level of
transparency. As I'm one of the believers, that this is necessarily a good
thing, I dared even to propose that several times to Board members.
But from the very beginning of WMUA the Board has separate mailing list
(without archive, what is significant in some situations like change of
Board members) and in addition they build Board' wikisite which is closed
as well (only AC members ver granted by access - after long struggle so as
sorta gifted compromise, while it was never accepted by the community).
So said mailing list they ...occupy only for Urbi et orbi purposes or it
will be more exact to say only for urbi (strictly confidential for WMUA).
on the other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
YES it does replace or, to be more exact, all-members discussion space is
converted to Board announcement place (all others but AC is in sit down
and listen mode strictly).
better question is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and
working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties
and rights as members of the chapter
Since said ruling - not in the mailing list(s), while community Portal
survived (yet? the administrators there are ...surprise - Board and AC
members as well). As we all know discussions on the wiki (like Portals,
Village pumps etc.) doesn't eliminate the need of mailing list.
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote:
Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36:
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do
the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to
discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of
the chapters, as defined by the bylaws?
(One is not always easy to set up.)
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
it was done so (including formal and real causes motivations), this
person will have to go deep into struggle:
* for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
* against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
* ...etc.
So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the
board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher transparency than in
most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the other
hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
Nemo
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[Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
About the second mailing list: there was request to create one:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52947 but this variant was
rejected by Board
2013/8/18 wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org
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Today's Topics:
1. WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
(Pavlo Shevelo)
2. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
(Manuel Schneider)
3. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
(Federico Leva (Nemo))
4. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
(Pavlo Shevelo)
5. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
(Manuel Schneider)
6. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
(Ziko van Dijk)
7. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
(Pavlo Shevelo)
--
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:36:24 +0300
From: Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shev...@gmail.com
To: Wikimedia Mailing List Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
'read-only' mode
Message-ID:
cae4eyto0u6ybweldzrju+2qxrrkjgessm6wfyq+vcv53eg+...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for
unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [
WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to
read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit
Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.
It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with
much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.
Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing
list from the times long before the said ruling are:
* 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director)
and
* 1 member of Audit Committee.
All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.
As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
it was done so (including formal and real causes motivations), this
person will have to go deep into struggle:
* for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
* against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
* ...etc.
and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.
Sincerely,
Pavlo Shevelo
(my WPnick is the same :))
[1]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua
[3] See the Talk page for [1]
[4]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013
Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why
URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the
idea, at least for [1], which is most important
--
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:03:12 +0200
From: Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch
To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
'read-only' mode
Message-ID: 5210e230.6020...@wikimedia.ch
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Dear Pavlo,
as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide
how to use that list.
For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there
is WikiUK-l:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l
If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business
which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am
sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change. The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for anybody else but WMUA members. I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation private information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise I decided that it's not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning. the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while what Nemo questioned is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of the chapters? The main issue is what is work for you (and duties for Nemo)? The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their work (carry out their duties) and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work :) The Nemo mentioned and rights in his questioning, so I believe his perception is closer to mine (while critics or at least questioning - is one of the rights for me and I guess for Nemo as well). On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo: is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. Nobody questioned that change. Does it seems appropriate? My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. So from my point of view it is really up to the community at WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate replacement or if another list is needed due to this change. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
