Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-08-01 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo) 

MZMcBride, 01/08/2012 03:10:

[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BOTOVERUSE#History has most of the
history, though I could swear a project or two has been "restarted" due to
bots over-running the site. Does anyone have a citation for that?


A citation for what? Anyway, the section seems correct except that it 
greatly overstates the importance of bot-created articles in the 
problems denounced by the "faction of the Lombard wikipedians" and in 
the consequences of its intervention (which was mostly meant as a 
brute-force restoration of the five pillars).


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Casey Brown 
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
 wrote:
> * Translate articles about worldwide topics from big Wikipedias

There's also this list:


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread MZMcBride 
FT2 wrote:
> A bot that can be given a list of the important templates, or categories of
> templates, would be good for starting a new project. Once articles exist,
> at least some meaning comes through and it's more likely people will edit
> them.

Maybe.

People should be _extremely_ cautious when using bots to try to propagate
(new) wikis. Page-creation bots are a form of inorganic growth in a place (a
wiki) that demands organic growth.[1] Wikis must, by and large, evolve over
time naturally, otherwise the bots risk damaging the culture of the wiki or,
in rare cases, it's possible for these bots to kill the wiki entirely.[2]

This isn't to say that pulling in templates from other wikis can't be useful
(of course it can be [though remember to attribute your source!]), but if
mass page creation is done with a bot, it needs to be done with exceeding
caution and accompanied by a full assessment of the impact of these page
creations. The effects of these page creations is of course amplified on
smaller, more vulnerable wikis, though the caution to avoid mass page
creation largely applies equally to larger wikis as well. That is, 10,000
new and unused templates on a small Wikipedia that only has 400 articles is
terrible, but it's not as though the English Wikipedia or any other
established Wikipedia with millions of articles wants 10,000 unused
templates either.

MZMcBride

[1] Wikis have been previously compared to children. "Creating a wiki is
like creating a baby, yes you should have a good reason to create one, but
if you don't for whatever reason, you should have an _extra_ good reason for
killing one," bawolff once infamously said. In this case, the inorganic
growth is analogous to cancer or anabolic steroid use.

[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BOTOVERUSE#History has most of the
history, though I could swear a project or two has been "restarted" due to
bots over-running the site. Does anyone have a citation for that?



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Kim Bruning 
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 09:35:49AM +0300, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop
> them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic
> like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
> 
> Is there something like a "task list for new projects"? Something like:
> 


Chenneling Siebrand and Gerard:
Go to translatewiki.net and translate the UI for your language? (if not already 
done)


sincerely,
Kim Bruning

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Denny Vrandečić 
2012/7/31 Denny Vrandečić :
>   Country: {{#getfromwikidata:country}}

And this is just a place holder syntax for now.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Denny Vrandečić 
Wikidata will still help with the task at hand, but it should be formulated as:

- Translate certain templates, like city templates etc., to the target language
- Provide labels to relevant items on Wikidata in the target language

Simplified this means the template

  ''City''
  Country: {{#getfromwikidata:country}}

would need to be translated in the target wiki to

  "Stadt"
  Land: {{#getfromwikidata:land}}

and the actual country would need a label in the target language in
Wikidata (i.e. "Österreich" for the item on Austria, etc.) and the
city the template is used needs to be linked to the respective
Wikidata item. This will help with starting Wikipedias quite a bit,
but there is no magic involved.

Cheers,
Denny

2012/7/31 Federico Leva (Nemo) :
> Milos Rancic, 31/07/2012 12:53:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> * Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
>>> {{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
>>
>>
>> Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual
>> should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>...  into your
>> language at Wikidata".
>
>
> Really? Where is this discussed/specified in more detail?
> Cf.
> .
>
> Nemo
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Lydia Pintscher 
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Milos Rancic  wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
>  wrote:
>> * Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
>> {{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
>
> Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual
> should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>...  into your
> language at Wikidata".

To clarify this a bit in case it is unclear: Wikidata will not
centralize the templates themselves but only the data in the
templates. This data can then be localized.


Cheers
Lydia

-- 
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Community Communications for Wikidata

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Obentrautstr. 72
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo) 

Milos Rancic, 31/07/2012 12:53:

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
 wrote:

* Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
{{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.


Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual
should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>...  into your
language at Wikidata".


Really? Where is this discussed/specified in more detail?
Cf. 
.


Nemo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Milos Rancic 
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
 wrote:
> * Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
> {{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.

Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual
should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>...  into your
language at Wikidata".

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo) 

Deryck Chan, 31/07/2012 12:23:

In addition, village pump, admin noticeboard and help desks are
overrated; they're much better dealt with being one centralised discussion
board to begin with, then split if there's adequate participation.


Overrated? Most wikis don't have any of those [allegedly]! :-)
(Only some random page chosen by us as their equivalent, which gets 
spammed with central notifications.)


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Deryck Chan 
Looks good! This list is about right, and having been part of setting up
zh-yue.wp I agree it'd be much better to make sure founders of new
Wikipedia language editions have this list.

A few comments though: I wouldn't put that much emphasis on MediaWiki help
pages. In addition, village pump, admin noticeboard and help desks are
overrated; they're much better dealt with being one centralised discussion
board to begin with, then split if there's adequate participation.

Deryck

On 31 July 2012 07:35, Amir E. Aharoni  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop
> them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic
> like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
>
> Is there something like a "task list for new projects"? Something like:
>
> * Write new articles about your own culture
> * Translate articles about worldwide topics from big Wikipedias
> * Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
> {{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
> * Write content policies
> * Write help pages about MediaWiki (that's a big topic for its own thread)
> * Complete and maintain the translation of MediaWiki and extensions in
> translatewiki.net
> * Create pages for Village pump, Administrator notice board, Help desk etc.
> * Watch Recent changes
> * Periodically delete articles that were marked for speedy deletion
> etc.
>
> (Of course, for Wikisource, Wikibooks etc. the task list would
> somewhat different.)
>
> I was about to write such page for the Punjabi Wikipedia, which I
> kinda adopted in the last few months, but then thought that something
> like this may exist already. Is anybody familiar with anything?
>
> Thank you.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread FT2 
A bot that can be given a list of the important templates, or categories of
templates, would be good for starting a new project. Once articles exist,
at least some meaning comes through and it's more likely people will edit
them.

(Machine translations would be nice too, but realistically if a machine
translator exists for a language then we usually have a wiki for it. It
might still be useful for a whole new project - eg a new area of coverage
that is going to be set up in common languages. It might not be perfect but
some meaning will come through and it'll help, much like town/city/village
bot articles did.)
FT2



On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

> Amir E. Aharoni, 31/07/2012 08:35:
>
>  Hello,
>>
>> There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop
>> them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic
>> like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
>>
>> Is there something like a "task list for new projects"?
>>
>
> Yes, a few heroes wrote  wiki/Manual_for_small_and_new_**Wikipedias>
> a while ago (thanks!) but they've never been helped enough to make it
> complete (and more general).
> This can be useful too:  wiki/Category:Wikimedia_**projects_coordination>
> (we need more work on pages like those).
>
> Nemo
>
>
> __**_
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-31 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo) 

Amir E. Aharoni, 31/07/2012 08:35:

Hello,

There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop
them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic
like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.

Is there something like a "task list for new projects"?


Yes, a few heroes wrote 
 a 
while ago (thanks!) but they've never been helped enough to make it 
complete (and more general).
This can be useful too: 
 
(we need more work on pages like those).


Nemo

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[Wikimedia-l] A task list for a beginning project

2012-07-30 Thread Amir E. Aharoni 
Hello,

There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop
them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic
like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.

Is there something like a "task list for new projects"? Something like:

* Write new articles about your own culture
* Translate articles about worldwide topics from big Wikipedias
* Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
{{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
* Write content policies
* Write help pages about MediaWiki (that's a big topic for its own thread)
* Complete and maintain the translation of MediaWiki and extensions in
translatewiki.net
* Create pages for Village pump, Administrator notice board, Help desk etc.
* Watch Recent changes
* Periodically delete articles that were marked for speedy deletion
etc.

(Of course, for Wikisource, Wikibooks etc. the task list would
somewhat different.)

I was about to write such page for the Punjabi Wikipedia, which I
kinda adopted in the last few months, but then thought that something
like this may exist already. Is anybody familiar with anything?

Thank you.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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