Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Hear, hear !!
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 28 June 2015 at 12:44, Amir E. Aharoni 
wrote:

> > The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia US
> > chapter is founded ;-)
> W
> Not quite, but it would be an important step in that direction. Work on USA
> projects should be done by USA Wikimedia chapters and other USA
> organization, not by the Foundation.
>
> It used to be worse in the past - The example that I recall most easily is
> the Public Policy Initiative from 2010, which got American people to work
> on American topics. Though not a bad project as far as the created content
> goes, I felt discomfort about the fact that it's done by the Foundation
> which is supposed to be international.
>
> But that was five years ago. I cannot recall something like that is
> happening now. There are local American chapters now; it's good that they
> are local, and there should be more of them. Foundation is backing more
> international projects and usually gives the backing to organizations or
> individuals rather than doing everything by itself.
>
> It can get much more international, but a good process has already begun.
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
> 2015-06-28 6:00 GMT+03:00 Pine W :
>
> > Hi Ricordisamoa,
> >
> > There are multiple chapters, user groups and thematic organizations that
> > are active in the US and have a degree of separation from WMF. The US
> > affiliates are cooperative with each other, and the affiliate leaders
> > communicate with each other fairly frequently. May I ask what benefits
> you
> > think would come from having a consolidated US chapter? We've talked
> about
> > this casually among ourselves but so far we seem to be satisfied with a
> > confederation of smaller affiliates instead of a single national
> affiliate.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Pine
> > On Jun 27, 2015 7:20 PM, "Ricordisamoa" 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia US
> > > chapter is founded ;-)
> > >
> > > Il 08/04/2015 06:58, Pine W ha scritto:
> > >
> > >> Hi Garfield,
> > >>
> > >> I'm asking this on Wikimedia-l because a number of Wikimedians have
> > noted
> > >> the expensiveness of the San Francisco area including its high cost of
> > >> living for staff, employer competition for engineering talent, and
> > >> associated high salaries for WMF employees.
> > >>
> > >> I see on
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/8/8a/RFP_for_Real_Estate_Services.pdf
> > >> that WMF is considering relocating its offices when its current main
> > >> office
> > >> lease expires.
> > >>
> > >> Questions:
> > >>
> > >> What happens to the remodel expenses that WMF is paying for at its
> > current
> > >> location? If WMF vacates the premesis, will it be compensated for the
> > >> remodel by the building owner?
> > >>
> > >> I hope that WMF is contemplating fully exiting the San Francisco
> market
> > >> area in order to economize, get better value for our donors' funds,
> have
> > >> less competition for talent, and lower costs of living for staff. Is
> > this
> > >> being considered?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks very much,
> > >>
> > >> Pine
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> 
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Amir E. Aharoni]

> The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia US
> chapter is founded ;-)
W
Not quite, but it would be an important step in that direction. Work on USA
projects should be done by USA Wikimedia chapters and other USA
organization, not by the Foundation.

It used to be worse in the past - The example that I recall most easily is
the Public Policy Initiative from 2010, which got American people to work
on American topics. Though not a bad project as far as the created content
goes, I felt discomfort about the fact that it's done by the Foundation
which is supposed to be international.

But that was five years ago. I cannot recall something like that is
happening now. There are local American chapters now; it's good that they
are local, and there should be more of them. Foundation is backing more
international projects and usually gives the backing to organizations or
individuals rather than doing everything by itself.

It can get much more international, but a good process has already begun.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2015-06-28 6:00 GMT+03:00 Pine W :

> Hi Ricordisamoa,
>
> There are multiple chapters, user groups and thematic organizations that
> are active in the US and have a degree of separation from WMF. The US
> affiliates are cooperative with each other, and the affiliate leaders
> communicate with each other fairly frequently. May I ask what benefits you
> think would come from having a consolidated US chapter? We've talked about
> this casually among ourselves but so far we seem to be satisfied with a
> confederation of smaller affiliates instead of a single national affiliate.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Pine
> On Jun 27, 2015 7:20 PM, "Ricordisamoa" 
> wrote:
>
> > The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia US
> > chapter is founded ;-)
> >
> > Il 08/04/2015 06:58, Pine W ha scritto:
> >
> >> Hi Garfield,
> >>
> >> I'm asking this on Wikimedia-l because a number of Wikimedians have
> noted
> >> the expensiveness of the San Francisco area including its high cost of
> >> living for staff, employer competition for engineering talent, and
> >> associated high salaries for WMF employees.
> >>
> >> I see on
> >>
> >>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/8/8a/RFP_for_Real_Estate_Services.pdf
> >> that WMF is considering relocating its offices when its current main
> >> office
> >> lease expires.
> >>
> >> Questions:
> >>
> >> What happens to the remodel expenses that WMF is paying for at its
> current
> >> location? If WMF vacates the premesis, will it be compensated for the
> >> remodel by the building owner?
> >>
> >> I hope that WMF is contemplating fully exiting the San Francisco market
> >> area in order to economize, get better value for our donors' funds, have
> >> less competition for talent, and lower costs of living for staff. Is
> this
> >> being considered?
> >>
> >> Thanks very much,
> >>
> >> Pine
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> 
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
The United States is not singular in its size, its diversity, the number of
people. Arguably India, Brazil and Russia compare.

The one difference the USA has is its historic attention from the WMF  in
every aspect of its operations. Arguably, the WMF has performed many of
what would be expected of a USA chapter without any of the administrative,
democratic or other requirements that a chapter has.

When the USA has its own WMF chapter, it is no longer an automatic given
what the WMF may do in the USA and THAT would end much of the
discrimination that is taking place.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 28 June 2015 at 08:07, Keegan Peterzell  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 12:34 AM, Risker  wrote:
>
> > Ricordisamoa, I have no preference either way. I live in a geographically
> > enormous country (Canada), which has a national chapter - centered so far
> > away from me that I'll never be in a position to participate in person
> at a
> > regular meetup. In Canada's case, regional chapters might have been
> better,
> > and I wonder about other geographically large countries where this would
> > also be more workable.
> >
> > Risker
>
> ​
>
> ​The United States is so big, and the population so propagated ​amongst its
> size, that a cohesive US chapter is pretty much impossible. Despite the
> size of our movement, it's still very small by regional breakdown and the
> economics of travel for support just don't match up. I've attended a few
> meetups in the US, and I had to travel significant distance to do so only
> to have a maximum turnout of a few dozen. That was a DC meetup in which I
> flew in from the southern US and met with Risker - coming from Canada - at
> the airport to attend a meetup that was 40 strong with half of the people
> not being from DC. And that took significant planning.
>
> Ultimately, a US chapter would fail not because of passion, but simple
> logistics.
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 12:34 AM, Risker  wrote:

> Ricordisamoa, I have no preference either way. I live in a geographically
> enormous country (Canada), which has a national chapter - centered so far
> away from me that I'll never be in a position to participate in person at a
> regular meetup. In Canada's case, regional chapters might have been better,
> and I wonder about other geographically large countries where this would
> also be more workable.
>
> Risker

​

​The United States is so big, and the population so propagated ​amongst its
size, that a cohesive US chapter is pretty much impossible. Despite the
size of our movement, it's still very small by regional breakdown and the
economics of travel for support just don't match up. I've attended a few
meetups in the US, and I had to travel significant distance to do so only
to have a maximum turnout of a few dozen. That was a DC meetup in which I
flew in from the southern US and met with Risker - coming from Canada - at
the airport to attend a meetup that was 40 strong with half of the people
not being from DC. And that took significant planning.

Ultimately, a US chapter would fail not because of passion, but simple
logistics.

-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Risker]

Ricordisamoa, I have no preference either way. I live in a geographically
enormous country (Canada), which has a national chapter - centered so far
away from me that I'll never be in a position to participate in person at a
regular meetup. In Canada's case, regional chapters might have been better,
and I wonder about other geographically large countries where this would
also be more workable.

Risker

On 28 June 2015 at 01:17, Ricordisamoa  wrote:

> I infer that you would have preferred a single US chapter from the start,
> wouldn't you?
>
>
> Il 28/06/2015 06:08, Risker ha scritto:
>
>> Ironically, Ricordisamoa, the "decision" to not have a US chapter was made
>> around 10 years ago at the strong urging of other chapters. The theory (as
>> I understand it) was that the US was the home of the WMF itself, which in
>> the view of the era, meant that the US didn't need the "protections" that
>> came from a chapter; the WMF itself was perceived to speak for US
>> Wikimedians. (Given the times, back when there were literally only enough
>> employees to run the servers and sort of keep an eye on MediaWiki, this
>> was
>> perhaps an incorrect assessment.) Then US regions started to form
>> chapters,
>> first New York then DC; there are now a significant number of user groups.
>> If there had been a US chapter formed back at that time, there would only
>> be one US chapter; the rest would never be recognized at the chapter
>> level.
>> Instead, we now see the specter of what could come, since the US alone as
>> a
>> nation with a large number of Wikimedians does not have the opportunity
>> for
>> a single chapter:  given a little bit more organization, and the ambition
>> to do the paperwork to become a chapter, the US could have as many (or
>> more) chapters than exist in all of Europe in a few years.  One has to
>> wonder if some other countries, especially those with a large number of
>> Wikimedians or a massive geographic area, might wish they had gone with
>> regional affiliates rather than a national one.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>> On 27 June 2015 at 23:26, Ricordisamoa 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  I know the confederated approach may surely make more sense for the local
>>> communities, but I think an established regional subject would help
>>> uproot
>>> the Foundation from a single country it relies too much on.
>>>
>>> Il 28/06/2015 05:00, Pine W ha scritto:
>>>
>>>  Hi Ricordisamoa,

 There are multiple chapters, user groups and thematic organizations that
 are active in the US and have a degree of separation from WMF. The US
 affiliates are cooperative with each other, and the affiliate leaders
 communicate with each other fairly frequently. May I ask what benefits
 you
 think would come from having a consolidated US chapter? We've talked
 about
 this casually among ourselves but so far we seem to be satisfied with a
 confederation of smaller affiliates instead of a single national
 affiliate.

 Thanks!

 Pine

 On Jun 27, 2015 7:20 PM, "Ricordisamoa" >>> > wrote:

  The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia
  US chapter is founded ;-)

  Il 08/04/2015 06:58, Pine W ha scritto:

  Hi Garfield,

  I'm asking this on Wikimedia-l because a number of Wikimedians
  have noted
  the expensiveness of the San Francisco area including its high
  cost of
  living for staff, employer competition for engineering talent,
 and
  associated high salaries for WMF employees.

  I see on


 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/8/8a/RFP_for_Real_Estate_Services.pdf
  that WMF is considering relocating its offices when its
  current main office
  lease expires.

  Questions:

  What happens to the remodel expenses that WMF is paying for at
  its current
  location? If WMF vacates the premesis, will it be compensated
  for the
  remodel by the building owner?

  I hope that WMF is contemplating fully exiting the San
  Francisco market
  area in order to economize, get better value for our donors'
  funds, have
  less competition for talent, and lower costs of living for
  staff. Is this
  being considered?

  Thanks very much,

  Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Ricordisamoa]

I infer that you would have preferred a single US chapter from the 
start, wouldn't you?


Il 28/06/2015 06:08, Risker ha scritto:

Ironically, Ricordisamoa, the "decision" to not have a US chapter was made
around 10 years ago at the strong urging of other chapters. The theory (as
I understand it) was that the US was the home of the WMF itself, which in
the view of the era, meant that the US didn't need the "protections" that
came from a chapter; the WMF itself was perceived to speak for US
Wikimedians. (Given the times, back when there were literally only enough
employees to run the servers and sort of keep an eye on MediaWiki, this was
perhaps an incorrect assessment.) Then US regions started to form chapters,
first New York then DC; there are now a significant number of user groups.
If there had been a US chapter formed back at that time, there would only
be one US chapter; the rest would never be recognized at the chapter level.
Instead, we now see the specter of what could come, since the US alone as a
nation with a large number of Wikimedians does not have the opportunity for
a single chapter:  given a little bit more organization, and the ambition
to do the paperwork to become a chapter, the US could have as many (or
more) chapters than exist in all of Europe in a few years.  One has to
wonder if some other countries, especially those with a large number of
Wikimedians or a massive geographic area, might wish they had gone with
regional affiliates rather than a national one.

Risker/Anne

On 27 June 2015 at 23:26, Ricordisamoa  wrote:


I know the confederated approach may surely make more sense for the local
communities, but I think an established regional subject would help uproot
the Foundation from a single country it relies too much on.

Il 28/06/2015 05:00, Pine W ha scritto:


Hi Ricordisamoa,

There are multiple chapters, user groups and thematic organizations that
are active in the US and have a degree of separation from WMF. The US
affiliates are cooperative with each other, and the affiliate leaders
communicate with each other fairly frequently. May I ask what benefits you
think would come from having a consolidated US chapter? We've talked about
this casually among ourselves but so far we seem to be satisfied with a
confederation of smaller affiliates instead of a single national affiliate.

Thanks!

Pine

On Jun 27, 2015 7:20 PM, "Ricordisamoa" mailto:ricordisa...@openmailbox.org>> wrote:

 The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia
 US chapter is founded ;-)

 Il 08/04/2015 06:58, Pine W ha scritto:

 Hi Garfield,

 I'm asking this on Wikimedia-l because a number of Wikimedians
 have noted
 the expensiveness of the San Francisco area including its high
 cost of
 living for staff, employer competition for engineering talent, and
 associated high salaries for WMF employees.

 I see on

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/8/8a/RFP_for_Real_Estate_Services.pdf
 that WMF is considering relocating its offices when its
 current main office
 lease expires.

 Questions:

 What happens to the remodel expenses that WMF is paying for at
 its current
 location? If WMF vacates the premesis, will it be compensated
 for the
 remodel by the building owner?

 I hope that WMF is contemplating fully exiting the San
 Francisco market
 area in order to economize, get better value for our donors'
 funds, have
 less competition for talent, and lower costs of living for
 staff. Is this
 being considered?

 Thanks very much,

 Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Risker]

Ironically, Ricordisamoa, the "decision" to not have a US chapter was made
around 10 years ago at the strong urging of other chapters. The theory (as
I understand it) was that the US was the home of the WMF itself, which in
the view of the era, meant that the US didn't need the "protections" that
came from a chapter; the WMF itself was perceived to speak for US
Wikimedians. (Given the times, back when there were literally only enough
employees to run the servers and sort of keep an eye on MediaWiki, this was
perhaps an incorrect assessment.) Then US regions started to form chapters,
first New York then DC; there are now a significant number of user groups.
If there had been a US chapter formed back at that time, there would only
be one US chapter; the rest would never be recognized at the chapter level.
Instead, we now see the specter of what could come, since the US alone as a
nation with a large number of Wikimedians does not have the opportunity for
a single chapter:  given a little bit more organization, and the ambition
to do the paperwork to become a chapter, the US could have as many (or
more) chapters than exist in all of Europe in a few years.  One has to
wonder if some other countries, especially those with a large number of
Wikimedians or a massive geographic area, might wish they had gone with
regional affiliates rather than a national one.

Risker/Anne

On 27 June 2015 at 23:26, Ricordisamoa  wrote:

> I know the confederated approach may surely make more sense for the local
> communities, but I think an established regional subject would help uproot
> the Foundation from a single country it relies too much on.
>
> Il 28/06/2015 05:00, Pine W ha scritto:
>
>>
>> Hi Ricordisamoa,
>>
>> There are multiple chapters, user groups and thematic organizations that
>> are active in the US and have a degree of separation from WMF. The US
>> affiliates are cooperative with each other, and the affiliate leaders
>> communicate with each other fairly frequently. May I ask what benefits you
>> think would come from having a consolidated US chapter? We've talked about
>> this casually among ourselves but so far we seem to be satisfied with a
>> confederation of smaller affiliates instead of a single national affiliate.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Pine
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2015 7:20 PM, "Ricordisamoa" > > wrote:
>>
>> The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia
>> US chapter is founded ;-)
>>
>> Il 08/04/2015 06:58, Pine W ha scritto:
>>
>> Hi Garfield,
>>
>> I'm asking this on Wikimedia-l because a number of Wikimedians
>> have noted
>> the expensiveness of the San Francisco area including its high
>> cost of
>> living for staff, employer competition for engineering talent, and
>> associated high salaries for WMF employees.
>>
>> I see on
>>
>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/8/8a/RFP_for_Real_Estate_Services.pdf
>> that WMF is considering relocating its offices when its
>> current main office
>> lease expires.
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> What happens to the remodel expenses that WMF is paying for at
>> its current
>> location? If WMF vacates the premesis, will it be compensated
>> for the
>> remodel by the building owner?
>>
>> I hope that WMF is contemplating fully exiting the San
>> Francisco market
>> area in order to economize, get better value for our donors'
>> funds, have
>> less competition for talent, and lower costs of living for
>> staff. Is this
>> being considered?
>>
>> Thanks very much,
>>
>> Pine
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > >?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] US affiliates (was: Re: WMF office location and remodel)

[Ricordisamoa]

I know the confederated approach may surely make more sense for the 
local communities, but I think an established regional subject would 
help uproot the Foundation from a single country it relies too much on.


Il 28/06/2015 05:00, Pine W ha scritto:


Hi Ricordisamoa,

There are multiple chapters, user groups and thematic organizations 
that are active in the US and have a degree of separation from WMF. 
The US affiliates are cooperative with each other, and the affiliate 
leaders communicate with each other fairly frequently. May I ask what 
benefits you think would come from having a consolidated US chapter? 
We've talked about this casually among ourselves but so far we seem to 
be satisfied with a confederation of smaller affiliates instead of a 
single national affiliate.


Thanks!

Pine

On Jun 27, 2015 7:20 PM, "Ricordisamoa" > wrote:


The WMF will become a truly global organization when a Wikimedia
US chapter is founded ;-)

Il 08/04/2015 06:58, Pine W ha scritto:

Hi Garfield,

I'm asking this on Wikimedia-l because a number of Wikimedians
have noted
the expensiveness of the San Francisco area including its high
cost of
living for staff, employer competition for engineering talent, and
associated high salaries for WMF employees.

I see on

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/8/8a/RFP_for_Real_Estate_Services.pdf
that WMF is considering relocating its offices when its
current main office
lease expires.

Questions:

What happens to the remodel expenses that WMF is paying for at
its current
location? If WMF vacates the premesis, will it be compensated
for the
remodel by the building owner?

I hope that WMF is contemplating fully exiting the San
Francisco market
area in order to economize, get better value for our donors'
funds, have
less competition for talent, and lower costs of living for
staff. Is this
being considered?

Thanks very much,

Pine
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