Re: [Wikimedia-l] What to do when the WMF is stingy with the community?

[Gergő Tisza]

Making a bunch of unsupported and mostly unrelated accusations of bad faith
is usually not a great way of raising support for your grant request. Long
rants about how more money would be needed without even a hint of what that
money would be used for are also unhelpful. I recommend letting this thread
die and then starting a fresh one about the mission impact of the Wikidata
conference and how it could be raised by a larger budget.

I would also recommend talking with the other organizers first, as right
now it is unclear whether you are complaining about the WMF not willing to
give a larger grant or about the organizers not feeling the need for one.

(FWIW the WikidataCon budget is ~75.000 EUR, planned to be supported by a
36.000 EUR WMF grant and a 40.000 EUR WMDE grant.)

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:52 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Recently the review for the Wikidata conference grant application has
> started, and I have complained that the funds allocated are insuficient to
> cover the needs of the grants. The requested amount for the grants was
> 36,000 EUR, but in my opinion that should be at least 72,000 EUR.
>
> I have the feeling that the WMF is sitting on a pile of money just giving
> breadcrumbs to the community, and the community has to suffer in silence
> about this stinginess.
> What can we do as a community to request with a clear voice the funds that
> we need?
>
> Why are there two standards? One standard seems to be that everything that
> the WMF needs to allocate can go unsupervised, whereas another standard
> seems to apply to community activities where every penny is so supervised
> that it becomes a pain in the ass to organize anything big.
>
> The Wikidata Conference needs more funds to be a success and I think that
> in the grand scheme of things, the money requested is just peanuts compared
> to the money that the WMF has collected from donors.
>
> If things have to be done well, then the community has every right to claim
> the money from the donors. The WMF has no right to appropriate that money
> and use it as a hammer to sabotage events that could have a real impact
> like the Wikidata Conference.
>
> I request that the amount of funds allocated for grants to be increased
> from 36,000 eur to 72,000 eur, and this is an informed request that I
> perform both as a community member and as a member of the Wikidata
> Conference Grants Committee.
>
> The link to my complaint can be found here:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:Conference/
> WMDE/WikidataCon#Complaint_about_this_grant_application
>
> The link to the Wikidata Conference Grants Commitee can be found here:
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikidataCon_2017/
> Volunteer/Scholarships_committee
>
> I hope to have some feedback about this complaint. Thank you,
> Micru
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] What to do when the WMF is stingy with the community?

[Craig Franklin]

I'm afraid I don't really see the logic in this.  Even if we assume for a
moment that the WMF is sitting on top of an enormous, inexhaustible pile of
cash, it doesn't make sense that it should just splash that money around on
community initiatives without carefully assessing whether it is the best
possible use for that money, and whether additional cash would actually
lead to increased benefits.  I'm quite skeptical about the idea that flying
an additional bunch of people for a holiday in Germany, at considerable
expense to the movement, is really the most cost-effective way to develop
Wikidata.  It seems especially odd to me that one would be upset about an
event like this not being adequately funded, when it appears that the
organisers got 100% of the funding that they requested.

Cheers,
Craig

On 29 June 2017 at 04:39, David Cuenca Tudela  wrote:

> Dariusz,
>
> What is the point of spending the funds frugally if our mission is not
> accomplished? Why do we need to compare an event of this magnitude to a
> small chapter?
>
> The money is there to be used, not to sit on top of it without knowing what
> to do with it. If the WMF doesn't know what to do with it, at least it
> should go back to the community in the form of grants like this one. And if
> that is not feasible, then it should be given back to donnors. And if that
> is not feasible, then we should stop taking so much money because it seems
> that we don't need it. Or do we?
>
> Cheers,
> Micru
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak 
> wrote:
>
> > hi David,
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:52 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Recently the review for the Wikidata conference grant application has
> > > started, and I have complained that the funds allocated are insuficient
> > to
> > > cover the needs of the grants. The requested amount for the grants was
> > > 36,000 EUR, but in my opinion that should be at least 72,000 EUR.
> > >
> >
> > You realize that this is pretty much what an annual budget of a small
> > Wikimedia chapter is, right?
> >
> >
> > > I have the feeling that the WMF is sitting on a pile of money just
> giving
> > > breadcrumbs to the community, and the community has to suffer in
> silence
> > > about this stinginess.
> > >
> >
> > The WMF, just as the movement, has a responsibility to our donors, to
> spend
> > the money wisely and frugally. We surely do not always do so, but we try.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Why are there two standards? One standard seems to be that everything
> > that
> > >
> > the WMF needs to allocate can go unsupervised, whereas another standard
> > > seems to apply to community activities where every penny is so
> supervised
> > > that it becomes a pain in the ass to organize anything big.
> > >
> >
> > The WMF's spending is actually reviewed and commented on by the community
> > and the FDC.
> >
> >
> >
> > > The Wikidata Conference needs more funds to be a success and I think
> that
> > > in the grand scheme of things, the money requested is just peanuts
> > compared
> > > to the money that the WMF has collected from donors.
> > >
> >
> > I believe we have a responsibility to treat our donor's contributions
> with
> > respect and care. I don't think that 70k Euro is peanuts, and rarely you
> > will find any foundation or NGO considering such an amount to be
> > insignificant.
> >
> >  best,
> >
> > dariusz
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
>
>
> --
> Etiamsi omnes, ego non
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] What to do when the WMF is stingy with the community?

[John]

David Cuenca Tudela,

Looking at the proposed grant you only asked for 36000, you get that, then
you decided that the WMF is being greedy and you now want more money. If
you need 72,000 should not your initial request realized that and adjusted
the requesting amount accordingly? I will also note that the WMF is fairly
careful on how they send their money because they are accountable for how
its used. Honestly if I had someone coming to me with a estimated price
tag, only to come back fairly quickly with an updated cost of almost double
I would question the persons competence and re-asses the initial decision
to support them.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 2:41 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
wrote:

> Hola Ivan,
>
> Así es, la idea es que la WMF pague las becas de viaje para la gente que no
> se lo puede permitir, y el resto de la conferencia lo pagaría la WMDE.
>
> En este caso la cantidad para la bolsa de viaje me parece demasiada baja
> para hacer que este evento (la primera vez que se realiza) funcione
> adecuadamente.
>
> Saludos,
> David
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Ivan Martínez  wrote:
>
> > Hola David.
> >
> > Hasta donde entendí está escrito en la subvención solicitada un total de
> 36
> > 000 euros, y el resto iba a ser cubierto por fondos que provienen de
> WMDE.
> > ¿No es así?. Como voluntario del Comité de Subvenciones a Conferencias,
> > quedo pendiente y en consideración de tú comentario.
> >
> > Saludos,
> >
> > 2017-06-28 13:02 GMT-05:00 Dariusz Jemielniak :
> >
> > > hi David,
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:52 PM, David Cuenca Tudela <
> dacu...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Recently the review for the Wikidata conference grant application has
> > > > started, and I have complained that the funds allocated are
> insuficient
> > > to
> > > > cover the needs of the grants. The requested amount for the grants
> was
> > > > 36,000 EUR, but in my opinion that should be at least 72,000 EUR.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You realize that this is pretty much what an annual budget of a small
> > > Wikimedia chapter is, right?
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have the feeling that the WMF is sitting on a pile of money just
> > giving
> > > > breadcrumbs to the community, and the community has to suffer in
> > silence
> > > > about this stinginess.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The WMF, just as the movement, has a responsibility to our donors, to
> > spend
> > > the money wisely and frugally. We surely do not always do so, but we
> try.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Why are there two standards? One standard seems to be that everything
> > > that
> > > >
> > > the WMF needs to allocate can go unsupervised, whereas another standard
> > > > seems to apply to community activities where every penny is so
> > supervised
> > > > that it becomes a pain in the ass to organize anything big.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The WMF's spending is actually reviewed and commented on by the
> community
> > > and the FDC.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > The Wikidata Conference needs more funds to be a success and I think
> > that
> > > > in the grand scheme of things, the money requested is just peanuts
> > > compared
> > > > to the money that the WMF has collected from donors.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I believe we have a responsibility to treat our donor's contributions
> > with
> > > respect and care. I don't think that 70k Euro is peanuts, and rarely
> you
> > > will find any foundation or NGO considering such an amount to be
> > > insignificant.
> > >
> > >  best,
> > >
> > > dariusz
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Iván Martínez*
> >
> > *Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
> >
> > // Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
> > moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
> > // Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora:
> https://donate.wikimedia.org
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Etiamsi omnes, ego non
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] What to do when the WMF is stingy with the community?

[David Cuenca Tudela]

Hola Ivan,

Así es, la idea es que la WMF pague las becas de viaje para la gente que no
se lo puede permitir, y el resto de la conferencia lo pagaría la WMDE.

En este caso la cantidad para la bolsa de viaje me parece demasiada baja
para hacer que este evento (la primera vez que se realiza) funcione
adecuadamente.

Saludos,
David

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Ivan Martínez  wrote:

> Hola David.
>
> Hasta donde entendí está escrito en la subvención solicitada un total de 36
> 000 euros, y el resto iba a ser cubierto por fondos que provienen de WMDE.
> ¿No es así?. Como voluntario del Comité de Subvenciones a Conferencias,
> quedo pendiente y en consideración de tú comentario.
>
> Saludos,
>
> 2017-06-28 13:02 GMT-05:00 Dariusz Jemielniak :
>
> > hi David,
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:52 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Recently the review for the Wikidata conference grant application has
> > > started, and I have complained that the funds allocated are insuficient
> > to
> > > cover the needs of the grants. The requested amount for the grants was
> > > 36,000 EUR, but in my opinion that should be at least 72,000 EUR.
> > >
> >
> > You realize that this is pretty much what an annual budget of a small
> > Wikimedia chapter is, right?
> >
> >
> > > I have the feeling that the WMF is sitting on a pile of money just
> giving
> > > breadcrumbs to the community, and the community has to suffer in
> silence
> > > about this stinginess.
> > >
> >
> > The WMF, just as the movement, has a responsibility to our donors, to
> spend
> > the money wisely and frugally. We surely do not always do so, but we try.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Why are there two standards? One standard seems to be that everything
> > that
> > >
> > the WMF needs to allocate can go unsupervised, whereas another standard
> > > seems to apply to community activities where every penny is so
> supervised
> > > that it becomes a pain in the ass to organize anything big.
> > >
> >
> > The WMF's spending is actually reviewed and commented on by the community
> > and the FDC.
> >
> >
> >
> > > The Wikidata Conference needs more funds to be a success and I think
> that
> > > in the grand scheme of things, the money requested is just peanuts
> > compared
> > > to the money that the WMF has collected from donors.
> > >
> >
> > I believe we have a responsibility to treat our donor's contributions
> with
> > respect and care. I don't think that 70k Euro is peanuts, and rarely you
> > will find any foundation or NGO considering such an amount to be
> > insignificant.
> >
> >  best,
> >
> > dariusz
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *Iván Martínez*
>
> *Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
>
> // Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
> moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
> // Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] What to do when the WMF is stingy with the community?

[David Cuenca Tudela]

Dariusz,

What is the point of spending the funds frugally if our mission is not
accomplished? Why do we need to compare an event of this magnitude to a
small chapter?

The money is there to be used, not to sit on top of it without knowing what
to do with it. If the WMF doesn't know what to do with it, at least it
should go back to the community in the form of grants like this one. And if
that is not feasible, then it should be given back to donnors. And if that
is not feasible, then we should stop taking so much money because it seems
that we don't need it. Or do we?

Cheers,
Micru

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak 
wrote:

> hi David,
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:52 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
> wrote:
>
> > Recently the review for the Wikidata conference grant application has
> > started, and I have complained that the funds allocated are insuficient
> to
> > cover the needs of the grants. The requested amount for the grants was
> > 36,000 EUR, but in my opinion that should be at least 72,000 EUR.
> >
>
> You realize that this is pretty much what an annual budget of a small
> Wikimedia chapter is, right?
>
>
> > I have the feeling that the WMF is sitting on a pile of money just giving
> > breadcrumbs to the community, and the community has to suffer in silence
> > about this stinginess.
> >
>
> The WMF, just as the movement, has a responsibility to our donors, to spend
> the money wisely and frugally. We surely do not always do so, but we try.
>
>
>
> > Why are there two standards? One standard seems to be that everything
> that
> >
> the WMF needs to allocate can go unsupervised, whereas another standard
> > seems to apply to community activities where every penny is so supervised
> > that it becomes a pain in the ass to organize anything big.
> >
>
> The WMF's spending is actually reviewed and commented on by the community
> and the FDC.
>
>
>
> > The Wikidata Conference needs more funds to be a success and I think that
> > in the grand scheme of things, the money requested is just peanuts
> compared
> > to the money that the WMF has collected from donors.
> >
>
> I believe we have a responsibility to treat our donor's contributions with
> respect and care. I don't think that 70k Euro is peanuts, and rarely you
> will find any foundation or NGO considering such an amount to be
> insignificant.
>
>  best,
>
> dariusz
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] What to do when the WMF is stingy with the community?

[Natacha Rault]

no comprendo!
> Le 28 juin 2017 à 20:09, Ivan Martínez  a écrit :
> 
> Hola David.
> 
> Hasta donde entendí está escrito en la subvención solicitada un total de 36
> 000 euros, y el resto iba a ser cubierto por fondos que provienen de WMDE.
> ¿No es así?. Como voluntario del Comité de Subvenciones a Conferencias,
> quedo pendiente y en consideración de tú comentario.
> 
> Saludos,
> 
> 2017-06-28 13:02 GMT-05:00 Dariusz Jemielniak :
> 
>> hi David,
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:52 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Recently the review for the Wikidata conference grant application has
>>> started, and I have complained that the funds allocated are insuficient
>> to
>>> cover the needs of the grants. The requested amount for the grants was
>>> 36,000 EUR, but in my opinion that should be at least 72,000 EUR.
>>> 
>> 
>> You realize that this is pretty much what an annual budget of a small
>> Wikimedia chapter is, right?
>> 
>> 
>>> I have the feeling that the WMF is sitting on a pile of money just giving
>>> breadcrumbs to the community, and the community has to suffer in silence
>>> about this stinginess.
>>> 
>> 
>> The WMF, just as the movement, has a responsibility to our donors, to spend
>> the money wisely and frugally. We surely do not always do so, but we try.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Why are there two standards? One standard seems to be that everything
>> that
>>> 
>> the WMF needs to allocate can go unsupervised, whereas another standard
>>> seems to apply to community activities where every penny is so supervised
>>> that it becomes a pain in the ass to organize anything big.
>>> 
>> 
>> The WMF's spending is actually reviewed and commented on by the community
>> and the FDC.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> The Wikidata Conference needs more funds to be a success and I think that
>>> in the grand scheme of things, the money requested is just peanuts
>> compared
>>> to the money that the WMF has collected from donors.
>>> 
>> 
>> I believe we have a responsibility to treat our donor's contributions with
>> respect and care. I don't think that 70k Euro is peanuts, and rarely you
>> will find any foundation or NGO considering such an amount to be
>> insignificant.
>> 
>> best,
>> 
>> dariusz
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *Iván Martínez*
> 
> *Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
> 
> // Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
> moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
> // Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] What to do when the WMF is stingy with the community?

[Dariusz Jemielniak]

hi David,


On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:52 PM, David Cuenca Tudela 
wrote:

> Recently the review for the Wikidata conference grant application has
> started, and I have complained that the funds allocated are insuficient to
> cover the needs of the grants. The requested amount for the grants was
> 36,000 EUR, but in my opinion that should be at least 72,000 EUR.
>

You realize that this is pretty much what an annual budget of a small
Wikimedia chapter is, right?


> I have the feeling that the WMF is sitting on a pile of money just giving
> breadcrumbs to the community, and the community has to suffer in silence
> about this stinginess.
>

The WMF, just as the movement, has a responsibility to our donors, to spend
the money wisely and frugally. We surely do not always do so, but we try.



> Why are there two standards? One standard seems to be that everything that
>
the WMF needs to allocate can go unsupervised, whereas another standard
> seems to apply to community activities where every penny is so supervised
> that it becomes a pain in the ass to organize anything big.
>

The WMF's spending is actually reviewed and commented on by the community
and the FDC.



> The Wikidata Conference needs more funds to be a success and I think that
> in the grand scheme of things, the money requested is just peanuts compared
> to the money that the WMF has collected from donors.
>

I believe we have a responsibility to treat our donor's contributions with
respect and care. I don't think that 70k Euro is peanuts, and rarely you
will find any foundation or NGO considering such an amount to be
insignificant.

 best,

dariusz
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