Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Gautam John]

On 29 June 2011 17:49, Pranesh Prakash  wrote:

>> Very much! A picture of the Mona Lisa is copyrightable. Even if the
>> painting of the Mona Lisa is out of copyright.
> I normally would hold that this is so, and have done so for years.
> However, given the recent interpretations by the Delhi High Court of the
> Supreme Court decision in EBC v. Modak, I'm not so sure any more.

I stand corrected. Thanks Pranesh.

So the answer is now "It depends?" :D

> I doubt any court would grant a scanner copyright over unedited scans.

Agreed.

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Pranesh Prakash]

On Wednesday 29 June 2011 03:20 PM, Vickram Crishna wrote:

It's an interesting point. A photograph of a piece of art or heritage cannot
logically* claim copyright, but what about a picture of a friend standing in
front of said piece of art/heritage?


That is, undoubtedly, copyrightable (and hence, copyrighted as per our law).

--
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Pranesh Prakash]

On Wednesday 29 June 2011 03:21 PM, Prashanth NS wrote:

HmmI guess the choice is personal here - "copyrightable" captures that well.


Not really. "Copyrightable" is more or less synonymous with copyrighted, 
since anything that is copyrightable is automatically (without any form 
of registration) granted copyrighted in all countries that recognize 
copyright (thanks to the Berne Convention and the TRIPS Agreement).


You don't need to do anything to assert copyright.  On the other hand, 
you need to do a positive act to relinquish copyright.


This reversal of copyright (presumed to be under copyright, rather than 
presumed to be under public domain) is one of the greatest problems with 
the current global copyright regime.


- Pranesh

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Pranesh Prakash]

On Wednesday 29 June 2011 03:16 PM, Gautam John wrote:

Very much! A picture of the Mona Lisa is copyrightable. Even if the
painting of the Mona Lisa is out of copyright.


I normally would hold that this is so, and have done so for years.

However, given the recent interpretations by the Delhi High Court of the 
Supreme Court decision in EBC v. Modak, I'm not so sure any more.


I think it is now arguable that a plain photograph that is meant to 
merely be a representation of the underlying painting is not "original", 
lacking "skill and judgment" (or "modicum of creativity", based on which 
test you believe EBC v. Modak lays down as the test for 'originality').[1]


I doubt any court would grant a scanner copyright over unedited scans.

Regards,
Pranesh

 [1]: While it is not arguable whether EBC v. Modak (INSC) lays down 
exercise of "skill and judgment" as the test for originality or "modicum 
of creativity", it is very clear that it squarely rejects the older 
"sweat of the brow" test.


--
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Yann Forget]

Hello,

2011/6/29 Noopur :
> Hey, I might be able to help you out identifying the work. What info do you
> need on these?

Here is an example with complete information:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vishnu_holding_lotus_flowers,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg

Regards,

Yann

> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Do we have an official contact with the National Museum, New Delhi?
>>
>> There are interesting documents there which could add valuable
>> information to Wikipedia and Commons,
>> but they are copyrighted. Could we get a permission?
>>
>> In addition, I need some help for identifying some images:
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_and_his_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rama_and_the_monkey_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krishna_and_gopis,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Embroidery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sculpture,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pottery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Yann

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Noopur]

I just feel this is getting slightly trivial. In case of applied art,
copyright is shared. I think we've had a good round of discussion around
that. In case of photography, a photograph is considered as a stand alone
object of art unlike earlier discussions on whether it is a mere document
reproducing  an artwork. That is the nuance I was trying to point at.

Also, I am not comfortable with the jabbing that goes on in these threads.
Email has become a nuisance since half of the comments consist of taking
digs at each other. Why can't we all just be pleasant and informative?
Yours sincerely
Noopur

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Vickram Crishna
wrote:

> Noopur, please clarify about the difference between a camera photograph and
> a scanned photograph. I am not clear how a photograph automatically gains
> the status of a work of art, unless this is a legal definition and is not
> meant to be analysed from an 'artistic' point of view.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> 2011/6/29 Noopur :
>>> > Hey, I might be able to help you out identifying the work. What info do
>>> you
>>> > need on these?
>>>
>>> More complete description, date, etc.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help,
>>>
>>> Yann
>>>
>>> > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hello,
>>> >>
>>> >> Do we have an official contact with the National Museum, New Delhi?
>>> >>
>>> >> There are interesting documents there which could add valuable
>>> >> information to Wikipedia and Commons,
>>> >> but they are copyrighted. Could we get a permission?
>>> >>
>>> >> In addition, I need some help for identifying some images:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_and_his_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rama_and_the_monkey_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krishna_and_gopis,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Embroidery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sculpture,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pottery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks,
>>> >>
>>> >> Yann
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Noopur Raval
>>> > Student
>>> > Arts and Aesthetics
>>> > Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
>>> > Ph: 9650567690
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Vickram Crishna]

Noopur, please clarify about the difference between a camera photograph and
a scanned photograph. I am not clear how a photograph automatically gains
the status of a work of art, unless this is a legal definition and is not
meant to be analysed from an 'artistic' point of view.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> 2011/6/29 Noopur :
>> > Hey, I might be able to help you out identifying the work. What info do
>> you
>> > need on these?
>>
>> More complete description, date, etc.
>>
>> Thanks for your help,
>>
>> Yann
>>
>> > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> Do we have an official contact with the National Museum, New Delhi?
>> >>
>> >> There are interesting documents there which could add valuable
>> >> information to Wikipedia and Commons,
>> >> but they are copyrighted. Could we get a permission?
>> >>
>> >> In addition, I need some help for identifying some images:
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_and_his_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rama_and_the_monkey_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krishna_and_gopis,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Embroidery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sculpture,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pottery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Yann
>> >
>> > --
>> > Noopur Raval
>> > Student
>> > Arts and Aesthetics
>> > Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
>> > Ph: 9650567690
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Ashwin Baindur]

Thanks Yann, I got confused when I saw the earlier license.

Thanks a lot for taking the trouble of getting & uploading images from the
National Museum to Commons. I have left a note on your user page in en:WP!
:)

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> 2011/6/29 Noopur :
> > Hey, I might be able to help you out identifying the work. What info do
> you
> > need on these?
>
> More complete description, date, etc.
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Yann
>
> > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> Do we have an official contact with the National Museum, New Delhi?
> >>
> >> There are interesting documents there which could add valuable
> >> information to Wikipedia and Commons,
> >> but they are copyrighted. Could we get a permission?
> >>
> >> In addition, I need some help for identifying some images:
> >>
> >>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_and_his_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
> >>
> >>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rama_and_the_monkey_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
> >>
> >>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krishna_and_gopis,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
> >>
> >>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Embroidery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
> >>
> >>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sculpture,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
> >>
> >>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pottery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Yann
> >
> > --
> > Noopur Raval
> > Student
> > Arts and Aesthetics
> > Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
> > Ph: 9650567690
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Yann Forget]

Hello,

2011/6/29 Noopur :
> Hey, I might be able to help you out identifying the work. What info do you
> need on these?

More complete description, date, etc.

Thanks for your help,

Yann

> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Do we have an official contact with the National Museum, New Delhi?
>>
>> There are interesting documents there which could add valuable
>> information to Wikipedia and Commons,
>> but they are copyrighted. Could we get a permission?
>>
>> In addition, I need some help for identifying some images:
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_and_his_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rama_and_the_monkey_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krishna_and_gopis,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Embroidery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sculpture,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pottery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Yann
>
> --
> Noopur Raval
> Student
> Arts and Aesthetics
> Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
> Ph: 9650567690

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Yann Forget]

Hello,

2011/6/29 Ashwin Baindur :
> Yann, these images should be licensed as being in public domain as of now.
> How come you have claimed copyright?

The policy is that photos of 3D work of art are copyritable.
I changed the license for 2D work of art.

> Warm regards,
>
> User:AshLin

Best regards,

Yann

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Noopur]

As I understand it, a photograph in itself is a work of art. Hence, it is a
separate object. While the copyright for the work of art lies with someone
(artist, institution), the right of the photograph lies with its artist
(photographer). If the object of art is under copyright, its photography
would also have been prohibited by the museum.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Vickram Crishna
wrote:

> It's an interesting point. A photograph of a piece of art or heritage
> cannot logically* claim copyright, but what about a picture of a friend
> standing in front of said piece of art/heritage?
>
> *but then again, logic and copyright often do not occupy the same space and
> time
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Ashwin Baindur 
> wrote:
>
>> We have many people who scan images from books, etc. In those cases we
>> give copyright as applicable, as public domain if they are old. Is the case
>> different in case we take photos from art?
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> Ashwin Baindur
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Gautam John wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 June 2011 15:00, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:
>>>
>>> > Yann, these images should be licensed as being in public domain as of
>>> now.
>>> > How come you have claimed copyright?
>>>
>>> Because he took them?
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Gautam
>>> 
>>> http://social.prathambooks.org/
>>>
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Vickram Crishna]

Thanks Gautam. I stand vindicated!

Clearly, we must start giving copyright credit to scanner operators. Or, a
la Gutenberg, to scanner owners. And a new can of worms for every inkjet
printer.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> On 29 June 2011 15:15, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:
>
> > We have many people who scan images from books, etc. In those cases we
> give
> > copyright as applicable, as public domain if they are old. Is the case
> > different in case we take photos from art?
>
> Very much! A picture of the Mona Lisa is copyrightable. Even if the
> painting of the Mona Lisa is out of copyright.
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Vickram Crishna]

It's an interesting point. A photograph of a piece of art or heritage cannot
logically* claim copyright, but what about a picture of a friend standing in
front of said piece of art/heritage?

*but then again, logic and copyright often do not occupy the same space and
time

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Ashwin Baindur wrote:

> We have many people who scan images from books, etc. In those cases we give
> copyright as applicable, as public domain if they are old. Is the case
> different in case we take photos from art?
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Ashwin Baindur
> --
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Gautam John wrote:
>
>> On 29 June 2011 15:00, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:
>>
>> > Yann, these images should be licensed as being in public domain as of
>> now.
>> > How come you have claimed copyright?
>>
>> Because he took them?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Gautam
>> 
>> http://social.prathambooks.org/
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Prashanth NS]

HmmI guess the choice is personal here - "copyrightable" captures that 
well. And if a copyright is chosen, perhaps "sweat of the brow" reasoning 
applies? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow). anyways, the license 
chosen in this case is not restrictive. 


On 29-Jun-2011, at 11:46 AM, Gautam John  wrote:

> On 29 June 2011 15:15, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:
> 
>> We have many people who scan images from books, etc. In those cases we give
>> copyright as applicable, as public domain if they are old. Is the case
>> different in case we take photos from art?
> 
> Very much! A picture of the Mona Lisa is copyrightable. Even if the
> painting of the Mona Lisa is out of copyright.
> 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Gautam John]

On 29 June 2011 15:15, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:

> We have many people who scan images from books, etc. In those cases we give
> copyright as applicable, as public domain if they are old. Is the case
> different in case we take photos from art?

Very much! A picture of the Mona Lisa is copyrightable. Even if the
painting of the Mona Lisa is out of copyright.

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Ashwin Baindur]

We have many people who scan images from books, etc. In those cases we give
copyright as applicable, as public domain if they are old. Is the case
different in case we take photos from art?

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> On 29 June 2011 15:00, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:
>
> > Yann, these images should be licensed as being in public domain as of
> now.
> > How come you have claimed copyright?
>
> Because he took them?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Best,
>
> Gautam
> 
> http://social.prathambooks.org/
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Gautam John]

On 29 June 2011 15:00, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:

> Yann, these images should be licensed as being in public domain as of now.
> How come you have claimed copyright?

Because he took them?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://social.prathambooks.org/

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Ashwin Baindur]

Yann, these images should be licensed as being in public domain as of now.
How come you have claimed copyright?

Warm regards,

User:AshLin
--


On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Do we have an official contact with the National Museum, New Delhi?
>
> There are interesting documents there which could add valuable
> information to Wikipedia and Commons,
> but they are copyrighted. Could we get a permission?
>
> In addition, I need some help for identifying some images:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_and_his_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rama_and_the_monkey_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krishna_and_gopis,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Embroidery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sculpture,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pottery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> Thanks,
>
> Yann
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] National Museum, New Delhi

[Noopur]

Hey, I might be able to help you out identifying the work. What info do you
need on these?

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Do we have an official contact with the National Museum, New Delhi?
>
> There are interesting documents there which could add valuable
> information to Wikipedia and Commons,
> but they are copyrighted. Could we get a permission?
>
> In addition, I need some help for identifying some images:
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:King_and_his_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rama_and_the_monkey_army,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krishna_and_gopis,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Embroidery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sculpture,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pottery,_National_Museum,_New_Delhi.jpg
>
> Thanks,
>
> Yann
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>



-- 
Noopur Raval
Student
Arts and Aesthetics
Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
Ph: 9650567690
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