Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi Yuvi, An agreement was reached that the group would first seek recognition as a Wikimedia Chapter SIG and then as a Wikimedia User Group. Best regards, Bence On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:40 AM, Yuvi Panda yuvipa...@gmail.com wrote: Seems to have stalled? Any update on this from AffCom / Chapter? -- Yuvi Panda T http://yuvi.in/blog ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Thank you Bence for making this public, as it seems that even I missed to see that agreement announced here. Regards, Dhaval On 27 Jan 2013 17:04, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yuvi, An agreement was reached that the group would first seek recognition as a Wikimedia Chapter SIG and then as a Wikimedia User Group. Best regards, Bence On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:40 AM, Yuvi Panda yuvipa...@gmail.com wrote: Seems to have stalled? Any update on this from AffCom / Chapter? -- Yuvi Panda T http://yuvi.in/blog ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Seems to have stalled? Any update on this from AffCom / Chapter? -- Yuvi Panda T http://yuvi.in/blog ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Dear Harsh, I understand that it can be sometimes frustrating to be answering a bunch of questions from other Wikipedians (including, perhaps me) however it serves a purpose. You have suggested the formation, on this list, of a new entity. There are two things worth congragulating you here. One, that you are willing to take a lead on the formation of an entity. Second, that you have announced it on this list. However, this act of creating a new entity comes along with it the responsoibility of answering questions and concerns other members of the community may have. This helps people who want to join in decide and understand what they are getting into. It also makes things simpler for the teams and groups following your lead. Being a pioneer requires effort because change is resisted. Alternatives will be suggested and the group must stand the test of why another entity may not do the work that this group does. Do engage with the community here. It may be frustrating and take your time in the beginning but I believe it would be worthwhile in the long run. This has been my experience. Pradeep Mohandas How Pradeep uses email? - http://goo.gl/6v1I9 From: Arun Ramarathnam arunra...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia India Community list wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, 6 January 2013 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad Dear Harsh, First of all thanks to you and the volunteers in Ahmendabad who are keen to contribute to Mediawiki. it is evident from your contributions to Gujarati (around Mediawiki) that you and others are very interested to do your bit. Please continue to do this with the passion and the enthusiasm some of you have show already. On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Harsh Kothari harshkothari...@gmail.com wrote: Next is I don't want to get involved in this type of discussion. I just want to contribute and code. This is probably the best we can do, since the rest of Ahmedabad group members are also more interested in coding than in formal discussions like this one. We silently help growing the MediaWiki community across India. That is what matters. As a far these formal discussions go they are essential to sort out and bring clarity to the emerging models proposed by the foundation. There are matters of scope of multiple entities at play, overlapping turfs, trademark licensing, membership, continuity of activities and funding that are involved. Building volunteer groups is best done without the need for a registered entity as they come with the burden of maintaining and ensuring compliance to the regulatory authorities. The focus while bootstrapping these ought to be (as you right said) on building the volunteer pool. Let the chapter and the WMF sort out the larger model while you folks keep the focus on the technical work that you are passionate about. I am sure the chapter or the WMF would be happen to support if you were to need any help. Dear All, For now, it is unclear to me what treating the Ahmedabad Mediawiki user group as a formal wikimedia user group actually means? Does that mean it would be non-incorporated entity and have trademark reuse rights (from the chapter?). It suppose it would need to depend on funding as needed from the chapter or WMF. Can someone clarify? Is there any other aspect that I may be missing? To chime in on the observations made earlier on the thread...I for for one also believes... India has been a test bed to test out models without thinking through the ramifications enough. The creation of India programs (first intended as a temporary office, then a formal entity, subsequently wound up (which came as a huge shock to many) and handed over to CIS (now A2K). I do think some of these moves ought to have happened with more chapter involvement. If for one don't understand how first a focused Boots-on-the-ground initiative is launched and subsequently there is a move to a narrowed focused model (a complete change in approach). This move has surely impacted the dynamics at the ground in India immensely. We have lost some truly good wikipedians who have moved on in disillusionment. I care for the movement and do believe that strengthening chapters to be the custodians of the movement in respective countries is the way to go forward. In my view, all movement entities should focus on assisting chapters to be successful who in term focus on supporting the community and local outreach. If there isn't belief in chapters, better to scrap them than run parallel entities (I am not referring to the Ahmedabad initiative here). What is sad is in the midst of this complexity of organisational entities, we perhaps risk losing truly enthusiastic volunteers whose only interest is in contributing to the movement. Catalysing and supporting volunteer enthusiasm and interest ought to be our
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Dear Harsh, First of all thanks to you and the volunteers in Ahmendabad who are keen to contribute to Mediawiki. it is evident from your contributions to Gujarati (around Mediawiki) that you and others are very interested to do your bit. Please continue to do this with the passion and the enthusiasm some of you have show already. On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Harsh Kothari harshkothari...@gmail.comwrote: Next is I don't want to get involved in this type of discussion. I just want to contribute and code. This is probably the best we can do, since the rest of Ahmedabad group members are also more interested in coding than in formal discussions like this one. We silently help growing the MediaWiki community across India. That is what matters. As a far these formal discussions go they are essential to sort out and bring clarity to the emerging models proposed by the foundation. There are matters of scope of multiple entities at play, overlapping turfs, trademark licensing, membership, continuity of activities and funding that are involved. Building volunteer groups is best done without the need for a registered entity as they come with the burden of maintaining and ensuring compliance to the regulatory authorities. The focus while bootstrapping these ought to be (as you right said) on building the volunteer pool. Let the chapter and the WMF sort out the larger model while you folks keep the focus on the technical work that you are passionate about. I am sure the chapter or the WMF would be happen to support if you were to need any help. Dear All, For now, it is unclear to me what treating the Ahmedabad Mediawiki user group as a formal wikimedia user group actually means? Does that mean it would be non-incorporated entity and have trademark reuse rights (from the chapter?). It suppose it would need to depend on funding as needed from the chapter or WMF. Can someone clarify? Is there any other aspect that I may be missing? To chime in on the observations made earlier on the thread...I for for one also believes... India has been a test bed to test out models without thinking through the ramifications enough. The creation of India programs (first intended as a temporary office, then a formal entity, subsequently wound up (which came as a huge shock to many) and handed over to CIS (now A2K). I do think some of these moves ought to have happened with more chapter involvement. If for one don't understand how first a focused Boots-on-the-ground initiative is launched and subsequently there is a move to a narrowed focused model (a complete change in approach). This move has surely impacted the dynamics at the ground in India immensely. We have lost some truly good wikipedians who have moved on in disillusionment. I care for the movement and do believe that strengthening chapters to be the custodians of the movement in respective countries is the way to go forward. In my view, all movement entities should focus on assisting chapters to be successful who in term focus on supporting the community and local outreach. If there isn't belief in chapters, better to scrap them than run parallel entities (I am not referring to the Ahmedabad initiative here). What is sad is in the midst of this complexity of organisational entities, we perhaps risk losing truly enthusiastic volunteers whose only interest is in contributing to the movement. Catalysing and supporting volunteer enthusiasm and interest ought to be our collective sole purpose and focus. I request Harsh and the other volunteers to keep the focus on the coding and the cool stuff than get caught up in the debate of the organizational complexity which is best left to the chapter EC and the WMF to sort out quickly. regards Arun ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi All Since there is long discussion about MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad I am writing this mail to give some points to you. 1st and most important point: all the motivation and why I am promoting this group is clearcut written in our submission. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad Next is I don't want to get involved in this type of discussion. I just want to contribute and code. This is probably the best we can do, since the rest of Ahmedabad group members are also more interested in coding than in formal discussions like this one. We silently help growing the MediaWiki community across India. That is what matters. Here you can read the point of view of the other members: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad#As_members Once the Wikimedia India SIGs are established and we see how they work we will consider. In the meantime we are happy being a MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. Happy Coding and contributing. Thanks Harsh --- Harsh Kothari Research Fellow, Physical Research Laboratory(PRL). Ahmedabad. On 05-Jan-2013, at 12:53 PM, Alolita Sharma wrote: My two cents based on two decades of experience in open source and growing adoption and contributions in India: Mediawiki is an open source project which has community members contributing to it globally. Having a technical Mediawiki user group with developers gathering together for face-to-face technical discussions or coding is a well established norm on all open source projects. Having a local user group mailing list is also fine. The most important component to maintain a successful technical user group is to have active members who find the group useful for learning best practices in open source software development, contributing code, localizing software interfaces and be active contributors to the larger global code base. It is irrelevant whether WMF or some staff member or some local chapter member blesses this. Open source does not work on the basis of needing someone's consent. It works when you have a local problem, bug or feature you would like to develop and improve the software (Mediawiki in this case) you use or want to improve. And you have more than 2 active developers locally :-) The idea is to code not just think and talk about it. Harsh - if you have more than 3 developers who are serious, local and want to learn more about Mediawiki, form your own user group informally. It doesn't have to be a formal group (locally registered society) unless you start collecting money. Keep the barriers to coding and real work as low as possible. I will be happy to help if you need it. Hope this helps. Best, Alolita On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote: I don't see the bunch of coders representing their case over on this list. I see Harsh as an active volunteer, who else is active? On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Arun Ganesh arun.plane...@gmail.com wrote: Let me (take the effort) to skip through the many lines of diplomacy. What I understand: Bunch of coders want to form their own group so that the coders can focus on.. coding and not going through endless email threads like this one. I support! PS: I'm no longer with WMF. But if there's one thing I learnt, creating things is faster and more fun than trying to get consensus. And we desperately need more people who can develop, minus the bullshit, or we are never getting out of this well. -- Arun Ganesh (planemad) ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi, A local MediaWiki Group is a nice initiative be it in Ahmedabad or anywhere else as long as there are enthusiastic volunteers involved. It'll be nice to see this group come to life (MediaWiki group Ahmedabad or a chapter SIG). I must say it's quite awkward not seeing any involvement of Harsh, as the proposer of this group, in this discussion while he's been sending emails to other lists. Best, -- Konarak Ratnakar ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
On 01/03/2013 10:02 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote: Just to let you all know: Our Executive Manager Sowmyan met Erik some time back and asked if he needed any help from the chapter. Erik said we could hold quarterly hackathons in different parts of India. We are more than happy to do this and would like the Community to support us. We are nothing without the community and volunteers. This is very good! But this is a separate discussion than MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad, or isn't it? Please open a new thread to set the basics of the first event. If they are meant to be organized quarterly you'd better start planning already the first one. PS: just in case you are wondering, Erik is fully supportive of MediaWiki Groups as they are part of the WMF Engineering team goals [1]. Have no doubt that having several of such groups spread in the Indian territory will help you having successful hackathons adding up to the Wikimedia MediaWiki penetration in India. [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2012-13_Goals#Milestones_by_quarter_17 -- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
On 01/03/2013 08:37 AM, Theo10011 wrote: So, to summarize again, Quim, a staff member, and you, a No, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups were proposed at the MediaWiki community and wikimedia-l, they were discussed also with the Affiliations Committee and they were finally approved and announced last month. Then Harsh and other volunteers in Ahmedabad interested in MediaWiki decided to take that route, and announced their proposal in several MediaWiki and Wikimedia India channels: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad Harsh sent the proposal also to this list on Dec 14 (it didn't raise any reply until 15 days later, btw) http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2012-December/009013.html Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking Wikipedians to join or create the said group? The MediaWiki community is a piece of the Wikimedia movement that can have ramifications out of it, like in the case of people using MediaWiki for their own websites. Still, something like a proposal on a new MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad is clearly on-topic in this list. If you don't bother, then an option is just delete the email and don't bother. :) To the extent of my knowledge, Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of real world implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the discussion back in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a MediaWiki foundation and an independent identity, because clearly that's the problem we have right now - shortage of committees, and groups and organizations to conflate a bunch of stuff rather than the actual work they are supposed to do. I agree with you(r irony) here. And precisely because of this MediaWiki Groups are designed to facilitate ad-hoc work without any bureaucratic overhead. The paradox is that a thread like this is creating overhead (I should be doing other things right now, like the rest of people active in this discussion). Still I hope it's worth having the discussion once and forever. After this proposing and resolving on MediaWiki Groups should be a fast process letting focus the teams of volunteers on the actual work. The simplest question is what would this achieve? The simplest answer is: - MediaWiki Group X members are empowered to represent the MediaWiki communiy in X. - For someone interested in MediaWiki + X it will be easier to find the right information and contacts to get involved. There was a discussion about this at wikitech-l, see the thread starting at http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-December/065333.html If after reading the thread you have more observations about MediaWiki Groups then please share them at wikitech-l. Thematic organizations are being discussed on Meta and if they should use Wikimedia or even Wiki in their name, I suppose some extension would apply to Mediawiki as well. Well, no. MediaWiki with the sunflower logo are different things. But also, thematic organizations are meant to be heavier, incorporated organizations while MediaWiki Groups are lightweight and not incorporated. If a MediaWiki group is repeatedly misbehaving the whole problem could be (radically) solved by deleting a wiki page and blocking users - applying the (radical) problem resolution in the Wikipedia way. As soon as you have an incorporated organization things get more tricky. But we are getting off-topic. If you want to discuss Wikimedia User Groups or MediaWiki Groups as such then the right place to do it is in their discussion pages or at wikimedia-l / wikitech-l. -- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
That is exactly what I was wondering as well Konarak. On 4 Jan 2013 15:15, Konarak Ratnakar konarak...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, A local MediaWiki Group is a nice initiative be it in Ahmedabad or anywhere else as long as there are enthusiastic volunteers involved. It'll be nice to see this group come to life (MediaWiki group Ahmedabad or a chapter SIG). I must say it's quite awkward not seeing any involvement of Harsh, as the proposer of this group, in this discussion while he's been sending emails to other lists. Best, -- Konarak Ratnakar ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
howdy Quim I'll reply to your earlier post and state my main objection to this before stopping. I don't really care as much as I might be leading you to believe, so I should disengage. I care more for the larger picture. But I just want to point out some minor discrepancies that might be relevant. On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org wrote: No, https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Groupshttps://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groupswere proposed at the MediaWiki community and wikimedia-l, they were discussed also with the Affiliations Committee and they were finally approved and announced last month. Ah, there are things like history and diffs to look timelines and contributions up. That page you link to, was actually created a month ago, by you.[1] You also made the majority, if not the entirety of the edits to it. :) I don't know about ChapCom approval but I seem to have a fleeting recollection of a hasty timeline that was condensed into a month, close to half of which were holidays here or in the US. In my opinion, ChapCom didnt have time to do the due diligence, completely vet this and look at alternatives like the SIG thing in India, which might be considered now. Then Harsh and other volunteers in Ahmedabad interested in MediaWiki decided to take that route, and announced their proposal in several MediaWiki and Wikimedia India channels: https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Groups/Proposals/**Ahmedabadhttps://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad Yes, 15 days after you created the page.[2] Fast, how volunteers organize these days, now back in my day. :P Harsh sent the proposal also to this list on Dec 14 (it didn't raise any reply until 15 days later, btw) http://lists.wikimedia.org/**pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/** 2012-December/009013.htmlhttp://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2012-December/009013.html Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking Wikipedians to join or create the said group? The MediaWiki community is a piece of the Wikimedia movement that can have ramifications out of it, like in the case of people using MediaWiki for their own websites. I can quibble over semantics here, point out how new Mediawiki Community is, and how there is a gigantic overlap between the two. How the highest established userbase in Wikimedia lends itself to the Mediawiki community but I am trying to avoid long explanations on a general topic, when this case concerns india for now. Still, something like a proposal on a new MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad is clearly on-topic in this list. If you don't bother, then an option is just delete the email and don't bother. :) To the extent of my knowledge, Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of real world implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the discussion back in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a MediaWiki foundation and an independent identity, because clearly that's the problem we have right now - shortage of committees, and groups and organizations to conflate a bunch of stuff rather than the actual work they are supposed to do. I agree with you(r irony) here. And precisely because of this MediaWiki Groups are designed to facilitate ad-hoc work without any bureaucratic overhead. The paradox is that a thread like this is creating overhead (I should be doing other things right now, like the rest of people active in this discussion). Still I hope it's worth having the discussion once and forever. After this proposing and resolving on MediaWiki Groups should be a fast process letting focus the teams of volunteers on the actual work. Please by all means, do those other pressing things. Don't let this concern you, it's a volunteer led effort so let the volunteers lead. As you mention above, if you don't bother you can just delete this thread. ;) The simplest question is what would this achieve? The simplest answer is: - MediaWiki Group X members are empowered to represent the MediaWiki communiy in X. - For someone interested in MediaWiki + X it will be easier to find the right information and contacts to get involved. There was a discussion about this at wikitech-l, see the thread starting at http://lists.wikimedia.org/**pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-** December/065333.htmlhttp://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-December/065333.html If after reading the thread you have more observations about MediaWiki Groups then please share them at wikitech-l. Thematic organizations are being discussed on Meta and if they should use Wikimedia or even Wiki in their name, I suppose some extension would apply to Mediawiki as well. Well, no. MediaWiki with the sunflower logo are different things. But also, thematic organizations are meant to be heavier, incorporated organizations while MediaWiki
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
So here's my main concern. On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org wrote: But the point that keeps me thinking is why the first response from Wikimedia India chapter to a new group of volunteers seems to be inquiring and resisting more than congratulating and embracing. When the AffCom said they wanted to check with the national chapter I thought it was a polite move and a way to make sure than nothing was wrong locally in Ahmedabad / Gujarat. I didn't expect a full questioning of MediaWiki Groups - or Wikimedia User Groups for that matter. WMF's India activities started with a chapter. The chapter jumped through hoops for over an year to get registered then another year to actually get a single cent in (FCRA restrictions). Then came the WMF office in India, Barry was hired, hisham was hired and a team was hired. Then an year later Hisham and Barry left, the Office idea was thrown out, in exchange for a grant to another organization, CIS. The staff that was hired are still there or maybe not all of them. I have no idea what the status is or much care to inquire, there is however little to no work that is visible. Anyway then came this, all in the space of a month. It seems India is being made a test ground for every new idea or initiative, Erik or whoever has. Looking at the last one, they just seem to move on after the relevant staff member at WMF leaves. It remains in pieces without actually focusing on anything productive - no actual development, no results, little activity. Now the issue is this will be the 3rd or perhaps the 4th organizational push associating itself with WMF. There is however, just a single registered organization in India, which is exposed by law to any activities befalling it or its members- The chapter. Indian bureaucracy doesn't always look for the most culpable individuals when a complaint is made, just the most visible and available one. And trust me, India loves its bureaucracy and over-reactions (Geoff might fill you in some, if you care to research). Just for example, you know people can be locked up for years just for accepting a grant from WMF? (FCRA and all foreign currencies are very strictly regulated.) How about the example of Bazee.com (read ebay) where the Indian CEO was arrested for someone else selling something on their e-marketplace, or how about just a couple of months ago, someone was arrested for a facebook comment, and the other for liking the said comment. Now, given that all your bases are covered, who do you think would be the most available person when a complain is made? Anyway, if people want to organize, let them. Don't lead them to volunteer - that defeats the purpose. I would have preferred if another equally bureaucratic country with a chapter might have been the test bed for this, but given how prioritized India is in the WMF strategic plan, it shouldn't be a surprise. Now, I wonder who came up with that. Since these groups are new, maybe the problem is caused simply by a misunderstanding? Let me clarify some points, just in case: Wikimedia User Groups are official and well defined at https://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/Wikimedia_User_Groupshttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_User_Groups They actually aren't official. Bence wrote most of that copying over from other pages on Meta a few months ago, which were originally edited from the pages about Chapters. This was still being formulated and maybe it would have been refined if it was taken on organically. Your usage of it was one of the first. MediaWiki Groups are a category of WUG, also official https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Groupshttps://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups I don't know what you mean by official repeatedly? does it mean they are endorsed by sports team? or they come with matching wrist-bands? MediaWiki Groups are almost ad-hoc associations, without any legal identity and basically zero bureaucracy once the group is accepted. They are in the quasi legal space between Wikipedia groups that have existed for a decade on Wikipedia and chapters. The odd thing is not a single Wikipedia group out of those hundreds, maybe thousands, wanted that recognition yet. On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org wrote: PS: just in case you are wondering, Erik is fully supportive of MediaWiki Groups as they are part of the WMF Engineering team goals [1]. Have no doubt that having several of such groups spread in the Indian territory will help you having successful hackathons adding up to the Wikimedia MediaWiki penetration in India. Erik? OMG, OMG! :P It seems the engineering dept. wants it more than anyone. There is actually nothing wrong with that, just don't go through this facade of calling it volunteer led and volunteer run organizations that people have been clamoring for. It's a trivial point really, who wants it or who creates it. Regards Theo ___
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi Theo, I think the historical context you put the Ahmedabad group in is fascinating, but imputing the creation of the proposed group to yet another WMF-led half-baked initiative is unfair. Wikimedia User Groups are finally getting off the ground; while the page might contain edits from me, it is considered official. There have been hiccups with getting trademarks sorted out but the first serious user group proposed is actually the meetup group of Munich, fully supported by Wikimedia DE in their attempt to get recognized. (See the WM DE chapter-created newsletter: https://blog.wikimedia.de/2012/11/15/wikimediawoche-462012/). User groups are meant to be created and recognized quickly (speed of the process will improve as we go on), perhaps even the 1-month timeframe might be considered too long if there are no complications; the model is an easy and not too risky way to empower a group who wants to conduct _offline_ activities (the reasons you don't see the hundreds of on-wiki Wikiprojects applying for this status is that they are not eligible). MediaWiki Groups are indeed a very new concept, but as they fit relatively well into the Wikimedia User Group model, which is overseen by a volunteer committee incidentally, it was agreed that it is better to have it integrated and approved by the volunteer Affiliations Committee. As for the Indian SIG model, it is understandably specific to the Indian chapter. The reason it is being considered is because Wikimedia organizations should be good neighbours, and the creation of new ones should be a carefully considered step. However, it might be that the final recommended best course of action is to 1) make the proposed group merely a SIG in this local context 2) make it only a MediaWiki Group 3) make it into both 4) continue this discussion in a way that the people behind the group simply give up and the problem vanishes. In considering the best way forward, one needs to consider the requirements of setting up a SIG (which requires Wikimedia India membership, and certain other unknown steps that are currently described on the closed members wiki of Wikimedia India – with a promise to make them public), an MG (which are described on the linked pages, but boil down to having at least three interested people with a common goal to do something offline and support from the relevant community(ies)) – my guess is that not counting prolonged discussions like this, the MG process is quicker so a reasonable final action plan would include first getting this status and then being recognized as an SIG, if option 3 above was the method chosen by the group. Best regards, Bence ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
My two cents based on two decades of experience in open source and growing adoption and contributions in India: Mediawiki is an open source project which has community members contributing to it globally. Having a technical Mediawiki user group with developers gathering together for face-to-face technical discussions or coding is a well established norm on all open source projects. Having a local user group mailing list is also fine. The most important component to maintain a successful technical user group is to have active members who find the group useful for learning best practices in open source software development, contributing code, localizing software interfaces and be active contributors to the larger global code base. It is irrelevant whether WMF or some staff member or some local chapter member blesses this. Open source does not work on the basis of needing someone's consent. It works when you have a local problem, bug or feature you would like to develop and improve the software (Mediawiki in this case) you use or want to improve. And you have more than 2 active developers locally :-) The idea is to code not just think and talk about it. Harsh - if you have more than 3 developers who are serious, local and want to learn more about Mediawiki, form your own user group informally. It doesn't have to be a formal group (locally registered society) unless you start collecting money. Keep the barriers to coding and real work as low as possible. I will be happy to help if you need it. Hope this helps. Best, Alolita On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote: I don't see the bunch of coders representing their case over on this list. I see Harsh as an active volunteer, who else is active? On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Arun Ganesh arun.plane...@gmail.com wrote: Let me (take the effort) to skip through the many lines of diplomacy. What I understand: Bunch of coders want to form their own group so that the coders can focus on.. coding and not going through endless email threads like this one. I support! PS: I'm no longer with WMF. But if there's one thing I learnt, creating things is faster and more fun than trying to get consensus. And we desperately need more people who can develop, minus the bullshit, or we are never getting out of this well. -- Arun Ganesh (planemad) ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Noopur, Thank you for your response, However, you still haven't answered my question on what benefit a User Group has over Chapter SIG. The Chapter was set up to help promote and streamline Wikimedia related activities in India. We have been asked by affcom and your response would greatly help us understand why direct affiliation is really necessary. It is more important to see what the long term benefits of this would be rather than to just create it because the option exists. -- On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Noopur noopur.ra...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Srikanth, Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process. Perhaps a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have been started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to shed more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this is a part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the narrowed focus... It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers. I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting up local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel entities' activities or privileges. Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken. Best, Noopur On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Hi Harsh, I have a few questions. Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to legal/trademark issues or funding? I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the Chapter similar to an SIG model. On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari harshkothari...@gmail.com wrote: *Dear friends, This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil, Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by 7 people so far. For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would be happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a great idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make good technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati Wikipedia easier to contribute to. I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati Wikipedia. Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on: Areas of collaboration: - Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisource - Create New Gadgets and extensions - Bug solving for Gujarati Wikipedia and WikiSource and also other MediaWiki related Bug solving for all Indian languages - Translate into Gujarati Language, i.e http://translatewiki.net/ - Wikidata You can read the proposal here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad Your endorsements, improvements and feedback are welcome at the wiki page. Thank you! Harsh Kothari PS: see also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals * --- Harsh Kothari Research Fellow, Physical Research Laboratory(PRL). Ahmedabad. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- Srikanth Ramakrishnan Member of the Executive Committee Wikimedia Chapter [India] ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- Noopur Raval Student Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Ph: 9650567690 ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
The same question could be asked of any collective with a Wikipedia related goal. However, it could also be asked if in the Wikiverse (which supremely thrives on the value of collaborative work), it is inappropriate or redundant to form new collaboratives (like MediaWiki group or other specific focus groups) that are outside the purview of chapters or the Foundation for that matter. My hunch is that the formation of such any formal/informal group of this nature is welcome as long as it does not enter into trademark conflicts with existing entities. However, it beats me why there would be a need to consolidate a new collective within a chapter if there is no apparent need indicated by the group itself. I am just wondering whether the ideal approach would be to propose the nature of support that the chapter can extend in stead of wondering why the group has not been merged or started by/within chapter members. This would probably also mislead enthusiastic Indian Wikipedians who are not chapter members to understand that they must streamline all their activities with existing formal entities. Best, Noopur On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Noopur, Thank you for your response, However, you still haven't answered my question on what benefit a User Group has over Chapter SIG. The Chapter was set up to help promote and streamline Wikimedia related activities in India. We have been asked by affcom and your response would greatly help us understand why direct affiliation is really necessary. It is more important to see what the long term benefits of this would be rather than to just create it because the option exists. -- On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Noopur noopur.ra...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Srikanth, Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process. Perhaps a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have been started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to shed more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this is a part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the narrowed focus... It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers. I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting up local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel entities' activities or privileges. Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken. Best, Noopur On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Hi Harsh, I have a few questions. Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to legal/trademark issues or funding? I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the Chapter similar to an SIG model. On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari harshkothari...@gmail.com wrote: *Dear friends, This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil, Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by 7 people so far. For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would be happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a great idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make good technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati Wikipedia easier to contribute to. I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati Wikipedia. Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on: Areas of collaboration: - Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisource - Create New Gadgets and extensions - Bug solving for Gujarati Wikipedia and WikiSource and also other MediaWiki related Bug solving for all Indian languages - Translate
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi, I never mentioned anything about being part of the chapter. The chapter was set up to promote the movement in India and it has done so even in cases where a person/participant was NOT a part of the chapter.. I merely asked what benefit the Group recieves by taking the User Group route over the Chapter SIG route. Harsh, What are your thoughts on the Chapter-SIG model. On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Noopur noopur.ra...@gmail.com wrote: The same question could be asked of any collective with a Wikipedia related goal. However, it could also be asked if in the Wikiverse (which supremely thrives on the value of collaborative work), it is inappropriate or redundant to form new collaboratives (like MediaWiki group or other specific focus groups) that are outside the purview of chapters or the Foundation for that matter. My hunch is that the formation of such any formal/informal group of this nature is welcome as long as it does not enter into trademark conflicts with existing entities. However, it beats me why there would be a need to consolidate a new collective within a chapter if there is no apparent need indicated by the group itself. I am just wondering whether the ideal approach would be to propose the nature of support that the chapter can extend in stead of wondering why the group has not been merged or started by/within chapter members. This would probably also mislead enthusiastic Indian Wikipedians who are not chapter members to understand that they must streamline all their activities with existing formal entities. Best, Noopur On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Noopur, Thank you for your response, However, you still haven't answered my question on what benefit a User Group has over Chapter SIG. The Chapter was set up to help promote and streamline Wikimedia related activities in India. We have been asked by affcom and your response would greatly help us understand why direct affiliation is really necessary. It is more important to see what the long term benefits of this would be rather than to just create it because the option exists. -- On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Noopur noopur.ra...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Srikanth, Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process. Perhaps a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have been started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to shed more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this is a part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the narrowed focus... It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers. I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting up local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel entities' activities or privileges. Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken. Best, Noopur On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Hi Harsh, I have a few questions. Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to legal/trademark issues or funding? I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the Chapter similar to an SIG model. On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari harshkothari...@gmail.com wrote: *Dear friends, This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil, Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by 7 people so far. For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would be happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a great idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make good technical infrastructure and editing
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Noopur noopur.ra...@gmail.com wrote: The same question could be asked of any collective with a Wikipedia related goal. However, it could also be asked if in the Wikiverse (which supremely thrives on the value of collaborative work), it is inappropriate or redundant to form new collaboratives (like MediaWiki group or other specific focus groups) that are outside the purview of chapters or the Foundation for that matter. My hunch is that the formation of such any formal/informal group of this nature is welcome as long as it does not enter into trademark conflicts with existing entities. However, it beats me why there would be a need to consolidate a new collective within a chapter if there is no apparent need indicated by the group itself. Errr...this seems at odd what I have been following. If I were to summarize what you are stating above, is that it's inappropriate and redundant to form Mediawiki groups and other focused groups. You opinion is, as long as it doesn't include trademark usage, who cares? which by the way would be hard to justify since to have any sort of formal affiliation would have to carry Wikimedia or Mediawiki in their title, and show their relationship to have any legitimacy, which preserves the essence of representation of a global brand, and through that, exposure to the existing entities using the trademark , but I digress. I am just wondering whether the ideal approach would be to propose the nature of support that the chapter can extend in stead of wondering why the group has not been merged or started by/within chapter members. This would probably also mislead enthusiastic Indian Wikipedians who are not chapter members to understand that they must streamline all their activities with existing formal entities. Regards Theo BTW will you be Cc'ing Quim on every response? :P ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Truly said Quim and Noopur. The idea and motivation behind mediawiki group is to encourage open source activities, particularly about MediaWiki. At the same time, it also brings to gather people who are working and can work in this perspective. So every wikimedian should welcome this . Regards, Samkit On 03-Jan-13 8:08 PM, Quim Gil wrote: Hi, On 01/03/2013 05:11 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan wrote: Hi, I never mentioned anything about being part of the chapter. The chapter was set up to promote the movement in India and it has done so even in cases where a person/participant was NOT a part of the chapter.. I merely asked what benefit the Group recieves by taking the User Group route over the Chapter SIG route. Harsh, What are your thoughts on the Chapter-SIG model. Can you describe this Chapter SIG route / model, or point to a URL explaining it? The only thing I could find is http://wiki.wikimedia.in/City_and_Language_SIG_subcommittee_chair but nothing about process or even group activities can be found there. In the meantime, let me add a bit more to Noopur's argument and my previous reply. The main motivation of MediaWiki groups is unsurprisingly http://mediawiki.org - the open source software and its community around. They can be created in Ahmedabad, San Francisco, Mexico City, Berlin or wherever, but they share common needs, common activities, common materials and so on. MediaWiki Groups were born at mediawiki.org because they were needed to bring this open source community to the physical space. In a formal sense they are just wiki pages with registered users signing up for them. No non-profit creation, no formal membership... The whole identity is based purely on activities organized. It was a coincidence that the Wikimedia movement was about to approve the User Groups while MediaWiki Groups were defined. We discussed with the AffCom and we fine tuned the MediaWiki Groups requirements and process in order to make them Wikimedia User Groups as well. Then Harsh, Yuvi and also Sucheta showed up proposing a MediaWiki Group India. At the end we decided that MediaWiki Groups need to be strictly local, and that MediaWiki activities at a national level should be better organized with the chapters, since they have already the infrastructure for that. Then Harsh evolved the proposal to MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad, Sucheta is already trying to gather critical mass for a MediaWiki Group Kolkata, etc. That's it. You can still argue that such organizations could be handled a part of Wikimedia India SIGs, and that their promoters wouldn't be required to be chapter members. I don't even disagree with the idea, but in the right sequence of events: the motivation of these groups is mediawiki.org and therefore good alignment and coordination within the MediaWiki community is what matters most. I have no doubt that strong MediaWiki Groups will contribute to the strength of the Wikimedia community and their related chapters. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Could you provide some URL to point to how this idea of groups came upon for India. I only saw the staff leading the way for this instead of this coming about organically. This happened on IRC over a few hours, between me, quim and harsh. Most of the conversation was quim convincing me that a mediawiki-india list would be a much better Idea than a MediaWiki India User Group (which he succeeded in), and Harsh volunteering to start the Ahmedabad one. The logging bot has been wonky, so no logs. As for 'why User Groups, why not a SIG' - the User Group idea is neither unique nor novel - it is a very well understood concept. Linux User Groups, Python User Groups, Ruby User Groups, Java User Groups, etc abound on per-city levels. This is just another user group for a piece of open source software. MediaWiki does not run just Wikipedia, but is also (IIRC) the most popular software used for standalone wikis. Plenty of projects that use MediaWiki have nothing to do with the Wikimedia movement (An experiment with using Semantic MediaWiki for Public Transit routing a bunch of us tried a few years ago, the w3c wiki (w3.org/wiki), lots of internal company's documentation wikis, lots of open source software wikis, etc). And 'why formalize their affiliation'? IIRC you need to go through the process to obtain the right to use 'MediaWiki' in your group's title. That is all (from my perspective, at least). -- Yuvi Panda T http://yuvi.in/blog ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi Yuvi On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Yuvi Panda yuvipa...@gmail.com wrote: This happened on IRC over a few hours, between me, quim and harsh. Most of the conversation was quim convincing me that a mediawiki-india list would be a much better Idea than a MediaWiki India User Group (which he succeeded in), and Harsh volunteering to start the Ahmedabad one. The logging bot has been wonky, so no logs. So, to summarize again, Quim, a staff member, and you, a contractor/staff member had a discussion with harsh - I don't know harsh so please forgo any mistaken assumption on my part, had a discussion on IRC, and between the three, it was decided, if a group would be a better option to a list. Unfortunately, there are no logs to even prove the above discussion, which would brig me to reiterate what I said earlier, now confirmed with the explanation above. For the time being, I stand by what I said. As for 'why User Groups, why not a SIG' - the User Group idea is neither unique nor novel - it is a very well understood concept. Linux User Groups, Python User Groups, Ruby User Groups, Java User Groups, etc abound on per-city levels. This is just another user group for a piece of open source software. MediaWiki does not run just Wikipedia, but is also (IIRC) the most popular software used for standalone wikis. Plenty of projects that use MediaWiki have nothing to do with the Wikimedia movement (An experiment with using Semantic MediaWiki for Public Transit routing a bunch of us tried a few years ago, the w3c wiki (w3.org/wiki), lots of internal company's documentation wikis, lots of open source software wikis, etc). Hmm I have no idea about these user groups, or what levels of formalization they do have, so I'll take your word for it. What I do know is the concept of Wikimedia User groups is a new territory for us, the first group using this approach is being led by the staff, as I said earlier. Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking Wikipedians to join or create the said group? To the extent of my knowledge, Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of real world implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the discussion back in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a MediaWiki foundation and an independent identity, because clearly that's the problem we have right now - shortage of committees, and groups and organizations to conflate a bunch of stuff rather than the actual work they are supposed to do. The simplest question is what would this achieve? Let's say there is a group or a list, what then? would the work materialize that so far has not? or would we be left with dead organizations in a year or two that will continue to carry the Wikimedia or Mediawiki name till someone realizes the exposure of proliferating these. I can point you to 2 dozen dead lists with no activities, in order to get wider participation they forward important announcements to the major lists like this, so, if you end up forwarding to the India list most of the times, what is the separate list achieving. It's the same people, perhaps more so on the older lists. And 'why formalize their affiliation'? IIRC you need to go through the process to obtain the right to use 'MediaWiki' in your group's title. That is all (from my perspective, at least). Actually, the discussion about demarcating the rights to use a term is still ongoing. Thematic organizations are being discussed on Meta and if they should use Wikimedia or even Wiki in their name, I suppose some extension would apply to Mediawiki as well. I hope I don't need to point out that the 2 words are the same in both organizations, 'Media' and 'Wiki'. Regards Theo ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi Theo, I will reply your questions in detail later. I just want to make sure that anybody engaging in this discussion has read https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups and understands what a MediaWiki Group is. The motivations, process, etc is also explained there. If there is something there you don't understand or you think it's wrong let's discuss. About the proposals, check https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals Yes, those of us being MediaWiki community members with full time dedication (aka WMF employees) are currently pushing many of the first proposals. It makes sense: we can dedicate more time and we are anyway leading other MediaWiki activities that would benefit from such groups. Then again MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad is NOT one of these cases. Harsh is a pure MediaWiki volunteer. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/M%C3%A9xico is another example of a proposal pushed entirely by volunteers with no connection to the WMF. In their case Wikimedia Mexico explicitly supports the creation of the group. -- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Theo, I am not sure where this discussion is going to. Srikanth had specific questions on why the MediaWiki user group and why not a technical SIG instead. At least that's what I gather from his mail. However you seem to be asking why a MediaWiki user group at all. For this you will need to rewind to previous mailing list threads where community members, oblivious to any possibility of such MediaWiki groups had expressed the desire to have some kind of a technical collaborative. In fact on this thread itself, I remember a response on the chapter list informing people whom this could interest. The mailing list objections don't quite make sense to me. Nor do the arguments about dead groups. That is the nature of volunteer communities perhaps. People were informed about this proposal on all lists precisely due to te absence of an existing tech list. I personally don't see why there needs to be any justification to start a collaborative group as long as it is not pulling on precious resources. If enthusiastic volunteers of Ahmedabad wish to call themselves MediaWiki group Ahmedabad and have already localized gadgets and think that formalizing would attract more like minded local users, I don't see any harm. Did you see the mini hackathon post and the announcement for all interested members to have a chat with Sumana? Did you also see sucheta and pratik's initiatives in the same vein? Wouldn't it be unfair to term this as an absolute staff initiative and undermine their effort? Best, Noopur On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:07 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yuvi On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Yuvi Panda yuvipa...@gmail.com wrote: This happened on IRC over a few hours, between me, quim and harsh. Most of the conversation was quim convincing me that a mediawiki-india list would be a much better Idea than a MediaWiki India User Group (which he succeeded in), and Harsh volunteering to start the Ahmedabad one. The logging bot has been wonky, so no logs. So, to summarize again, Quim, a staff member, and you, a contractor/staff member had a discussion with harsh - I don't know harsh so please forgo any mistaken assumption on my part, had a discussion on IRC, and between the three, it was decided, if a group would be a better option to a list. Unfortunately, there are no logs to even prove the above discussion, which would brig me to reiterate what I said earlier, now confirmed with the explanation above. For the time being, I stand by what I said. As for 'why User Groups, why not a SIG' - the User Group idea is neither unique nor novel - it is a very well understood concept. Linux User Groups, Python User Groups, Ruby User Groups, Java User Groups, etc abound on per-city levels. This is just another user group for a piece of open source software. MediaWiki does not run just Wikipedia, but is also (IIRC) the most popular software used for standalone wikis. Plenty of projects that use MediaWiki have nothing to do with the Wikimedia movement (An experiment with using Semantic MediaWiki for Public Transit routing a bunch of us tried a few years ago, the w3c wiki (w3.org/wiki), lots of internal company's documentation wikis, lots of open source software wikis, etc). Hmm I have no idea about these user groups, or what levels of formalization they do have, so I'll take your word for it. What I do know is the concept of Wikimedia User groups is a new territory for us, the first group using this approach is being led by the staff, as I said earlier. Second, MediaWiki *is* independent and might have nothing to do with Wikimedia. But then again, why are we on a list of Wikimedia asking Wikipedians to join or create the said group? To the extent of my knowledge, Mediawiki is a platform, a piece of software, in terms of real world implications it has no existence. Which would then lead the discussion back in to the circle, that went on the tech list about a MediaWiki foundation and an independent identity, because clearly that's the problem we have right now - shortage of committees, and groups and organizations to conflate a bunch of stuff rather than the actual work they are supposed to do. The simplest question is what would this achieve? Let's say there is a group or a list, what then? would the work materialize that so far has not? or would we be left with dead organizations in a year or two that will continue to carry the Wikimedia or Mediawiki name till someone realizes the exposure of proliferating these. I can point you to 2 dozen dead lists with no activities, in order to get wider participation they forward important announcements to the major lists like this, so, if you end up forwarding to the India list most of the times, what is the separate list achieving. It's the same people, perhaps more so on the older lists. And 'why formalize their affiliation'? IIRC you need to go
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
hi, Frankly, I don't thing there should be any objections on the formation of any groups whether by the Chapter or by individual members in the community or by Staff. This just provides people with a variety of options to join and participate. The groups formed with reference to the Chapter or under WMF need to be formed under procedures laid down under each. If the chapter wishes to form the group, it can do so. If an individual wants to start a MediaWiki group can be left to the individual and the processes (once finalised, if it is not?) are followed. I guess the choice of choosing which group an individual wants to be belong to can be decided best by the individual. Eventually, either all the groups will die out or people will join the more active groups. just my two cents worth, Pradeep ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hi Harsh, I have a few questions. Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to legal/trademark issues or funding? I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the Chapter similar to an SIG model. On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari harshkothari...@gmail.comwrote: *Dear friends, This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil, Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by 7 people so far. For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would be happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a great idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make good technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati Wikipedia easier to contribute to. I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati Wikipedia. Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on: Areas of collaboration: - Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisource - Create New Gadgets and extensions - Bug solving for Gujarati Wikipedia and WikiSource and also other MediaWiki related Bug solving for all Indian languages - Translate into Gujarati Language, i.e http://translatewiki.net/ - Wikidata You can read the proposal here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad Your endorsements, improvements and feedback are welcome at the wiki page. Thank you! Harsh Kothari PS: see also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals * --- Harsh Kothari Research Fellow, Physical Research Laboratory(PRL). Ahmedabad. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- Srikanth Ramakrishnan Member of the Executive Committee Wikimedia Chapter [India] ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposal for India's First MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad
Hey Srikanth, Just weighing in since I also happen to be supporting this process. Perhaps a little background is necessary to know why MediaWiki groups have been started as an initiative. Also copying Quim since he might be able to shed more light on this issue. As I understand from the proposal page, this is a part of the new direction taken by the Foundation since the narrowed focus... It was suggested that more impetus be given to help build and support technical volunteer groups just like all cities and countries have their Wikipedia, Commons and other communities of interested volunteers. I am also witness to an IRC conversation where possibilities of setting up local groups versus national were considered. As the highlighted in the discussion, I believe that it would be best for volunteers to work in local proximal groups (like MediaWiki group - Ahmedabad for instance) also with a language focus possibly (like several gadgets have been added to Gujarati Wikipedia as a run up to the group and so on). I believe the MediaWiki India mailing list which hopes to link up communities across the country is up and running now. As far as I understand forming specific interest groups doesn't require a formal identity or does not encroach upon other parallel entities' activities or privileges. Just trying to fill the gaps since you might not have the background on MediaWiki groups conversations. Maybe Quim can correct me if I a mistaken. Best, Noopur On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan srik.r...@wikimedia.in wrote: Hi Harsh, I have a few questions. Was there any specific reason to go for a Separate MW Group? Is it due to legal/trademark issues or funding? I'm sure that those two could be sorted if it were taken up by the Chapter similar to an SIG model. On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Harsh Kothari harshkothari...@gmail.comwrote: *Dear friends, This is to inform you all about the creation of the first MediaWiki group in India. For the past several days, I’ve been speaking to Quim Gil, Sumana and Yuvi Panda. I was informed about the setting up of local groups in different countries for technical contributors. With encouragement from all of them and with help from Noopur I submitted a proposal for the formation of MediaWiki Group Ahmedabad. This proposal has been endorsed by 7 people so far. For those who might be interested in setting up similar groups, I think a Wikitech mailing list for India is being set up and personally, I would be happy to help you write a proposal for your community. I think it’s a great idea because with the help of this technical group we intend to make good technical infrastructure and editing environment for Gujarati Wikipedia easier to contribute to. I have already ported HotCat and Popups(on the way) on Gujarati Wikipedia. Please have a look at the areas we want to collaborate on: Areas of collaboration: - Localize Gadgets for Gujarati Wikipedia and Wikisource - Create New Gadgets and extensions - Bug solving for Gujarati Wikipedia and WikiSource and also other MediaWiki related Bug solving for all Indian languages - Translate into Gujarati Language, i.e http://translatewiki.net/ - Wikidata You can read the proposal here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals/Ahmedabad Your endorsements, improvements and feedback are welcome at the wiki page. Thank you! Harsh Kothari PS: see also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Groups/Proposals * --- Harsh Kothari Research Fellow, Physical Research Laboratory(PRL). Ahmedabad. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- Srikanth Ramakrishnan Member of the Executive Committee Wikimedia Chapter [India] ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- Noopur Raval Student Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Ph: 9650567690 ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
