Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Achal Prabhala]

On Monday 10 October 2011 12:03 AM, Srikanth Lakshmanan wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 23:23, Gautam John  > wrote:
>
> On 9 October 2011 21:57, Bishakha Datta  > wrote:
>
> > I think Tory did a great job and had her finger on the pulse
>
> I mostly agree with you, Bishakha.
>
>
> Agree, It was a quite an elaborate one.
>
> > So I think one good way forward in general - and this doesn't
> hold only for
> > wikipedia, but for history making in general - is for others to
> start
> > documenting and writing histories too. Either of individual
> indic language
> > wikipedias, or alternate views of the same thing.
>
> This is pretty much what I was referring to. That if there are
> individuals, groups or communities who feel this is not representative
> of their view, then please document your narrative. Else, it'll be
> lost and this is the only and dominant narrative we will have to rely
> upon.
>
>
> I would treat her history just like a "Wikipedia page" having bunch of 
> references.Gone are the days when people relied on one document to get 
> narrative and am not sure if it would be worthier effort to keep 
> documenting "open communities" which document itself periodically. 
> Like we have the list archives, village pumps, millions of other 
> publically crawl-able pages on internet that anyone who wants to know 
> can always dig and get more. Wait for few more years, you will have 
> history.li  like paper.li  which 
> can digest and create personal accounts of history on subjects 
> intelligently, automatically given the public sources.
>
> I hope we dont need Oral citations for this "page" ;) ;) , What say 
> Aachal?


Oral citations are a *must* for anything related to India, obviously. :)

On a serious note I think a Wikipedia page for Wikimedia in India (would 
that be notable enough?) that accumulates all the different writings 
over the years would be a great idea - there are several newsletters, 
all the online discussions, Gautam's paper, etc. plus this, to provide 
multiple perspectives.


>
> -- 
> Regards
> Srikanth.L
>
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Srikanth Lakshmanan]

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 23:23, Gautam John  wrote:

> On 9 October 2011 21:57, Bishakha Datta  wrote:
>
> > I think Tory did a great job and had her finger on the pulse
>
> I mostly agree with you, Bishakha.
>

Agree, It was a quite an elaborate one.


>  > So I think one good way forward in general - and this doesn't hold only
> for
> > wikipedia, but for history making in general - is for others to start
> > documenting and writing histories too. Either of individual indic
> language
> > wikipedias, or alternate views of the same thing.
>
> This is pretty much what I was referring to. That if there are
> individuals, groups or communities who feel this is not representative
> of their view, then please document your narrative. Else, it'll be
> lost and this is the only and dominant narrative we will have to rely
> upon.
>

I would treat her history just like a "Wikipedia page" having bunch of
references.Gone are the days when people relied on one document to get
narrative and am not sure if it would be worthier effort to keep documenting
"open communities" which document itself periodically. Like we have the list
archives, village pumps, millions of other publically crawl-able pages on
internet that anyone who wants to know can always dig and get more. Wait for
few more years, you will have history.li like paper.li which can digest and
create personal accounts of history on subjects intelligently, automatically
given the public sources.

I hope we dont need Oral citations for this "page" ;) ;) , What say Aachal?

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Gautam John]

On 9 October 2011 23:43, Bishakha Datta  wrote:

> And I think part of it is how we choose to see it and who/what we choose to
> hear - if I choose to see Tory's piece as dominant because it was
> commissioned by the Foundation, then that determines how much power I give
> it. If I decide it is an interesting chronicle of a moment in time, then it
> becomes 'a' version, not 'the' version.

Two ways to look at this. One is from within the Community and one is
from outside. For the former, we know of the existence of multiple
narratives and this forms part of our organic history. For those
outside and looking in, the source of this narrative and that it is
the only easily discoverable one weight it accordingly.

> Also: want to second Hisham in suggesting that people add their comments on
> Tory's piece, since that too is the intention.

+1

And this isn't meat to take anything away from Tory's work - which I
think is well researched, well written and fairly presented.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Bishakha Datta]

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Gautam John wrote:

>
> It isn't so much about official and unofficial narratives - it's about
> dominance and if this is the only one then it is the dominant one. And
> dominance is about more than just the existence of a single narrative.
>
> I think it's about all of these: what's considered official and unofficial
and what dominates - and maybe what's seen as definitive too.

While one narrative may dominate in the short run, in the medium and long
terms the existence of multiple
narratives usually does ensure that no single POV can rule. (look at all the
voices and multiple perspectives around Steve Jobs' passing).

Agree that power is also part of the equation: whose voice? whose narrative?
who puts it out?

And I think part of it is how we choose to see it and who/what we choose to
hear - if I choose to see Tory's piece as dominant because it was
commissioned by the Foundation, then that determines how much power I give
it. If I decide it is an interesting chronicle of a moment in time, then it
becomes 'a' version, not 'the' version.

Also: want to second Hisham in suggesting that people add their comments on
Tory's piece, since that too is the intention.

And I'm bowing out of this now, since I'm on a flight with lots of time to
spare and could go on and on and on. :)

Cheers
Bishakha
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Gautam John]

On 9 October 2011 21:57, Bishakha Datta  wrote:

> I think Tory did a great job and had her finger on the pulse

I mostly agree with you, Bishakha.

> So I think one good way forward in general - and this doesn't hold only for
> wikipedia, but for history making in general - is for others to start
> documenting and writing histories too. Either of individual indic language
> wikipedias, or alternate views of the same thing.

This is pretty much what I was referring to. That if there are
individuals, groups or communities who feel this is not representative
of their view, then please document your narrative. Else, it'll be
lost and this is the only and dominant narrative we will have to rely
upon.

> Which is my way of saying that I don't see Tory's narrative as the official
> one, and the others as unofficial. For me, they all tell parts of the story
> through their own lenses.

It isn't so much about official and unofficial narratives - it's about
dominance and if this is the only one then it is the dominant one. And
dominance is about more than just the existence of a single narrative.


Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Bishakha Datta]

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 4:39 PM, BalaSundaraRaman wrote:

> > I agree Sundar. What I meant was that this particular narrative is now
> > the only one committed to paper (as it were) and will be crawled and
> > indexed and searched and read and referenced and since it is the only
> > narrative that is discoverable, outside the Community that is, it will
> > tend towards being the default one in my opinion.
>
>
> Which is what I'm concerned about as well, Gautam.
>
> - Sundar
>
>
I think Tory did a great job and had her finger on the pulse, and I do see
your larger point too.

So I think one good way forward in general - and this doesn't hold only for
wikipedia, but for history making in general - is for others to start
documenting and writing histories too. Either of individual indic language
wikipedias, or alternate views of the same thing.

It's always good to have multiple accounts of the same period/s or
phenomenon/s, seen through different eyes and lenses, if only to ensure that
there is no one official history.

In that spirit, I do think the first edition of the community newsletter
(published in 2010), subsequent editions of the newsletter, and Gautam's
article in Critical Point of View are also vital narratives of wikipedia in
India, that tell parts of the story. Hopefully, these are easily accessible,
online atleast.

Which is my way of saying that I don't see Tory's narrative as the official
one, and the others as unofficial. For me, they all tell parts of the story
through their own lenses.

Cheers
Bishakha
___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[BalaSundaraRaman]

> I agree Sundar. What I meant was that this particular narrative is now
> the only one committed to paper (as it were) and will be crawled and
> indexed and searched and read and referenced and since it is the only
> narrative that is discoverable, outside the Community that is, it will
> tend towards being the default one in my opinion.


Which is what I'm concerned about as well, Gautam.

- Sundar
 
"That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for 
the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted."
- George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture


- Original Message -
> From: Gautam John 
> To: BalaSundaraRaman ; Wikimedia India Community list 
> 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"
> 
> On 9 October 2011 15:36, BalaSundaraRaman  wrote:
> 
>>  It's difficult for anything to be *the* back story of the movement, 
> much less this one.
> 
> I agree Sundar. What I meant was that this particular narrative is now
> the only one committed to paper (as it were) and will be crawled and
> indexed and searched and read and referenced and since it is the only
> narrative that is discoverable, outside the Community that is, it will
> tend towards being the default one in my opinion.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Gautam
> 
> http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html
>

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Gautam John]

On 9 October 2011 15:36, BalaSundaraRaman  wrote:

> It's difficult for anything to be *the* back story of the movement, much less 
> this one.

I agree Sundar. What I meant was that this particular narrative is now
the only one committed to paper (as it were) and will be crawled and
indexed and searched and read and referenced and since it is the only
narrative that is discoverable, outside the Community that is, it will
tend towards being the default one in my opinion.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[BalaSundaraRaman]

>There is something that struck me though. Now that the journey and the
>story has been captured in the written form, in many ways, this *will*
>form the back story to the Indian community and Wikimedia movement.
>I'm wondering how comfortable everyone is with that?

It's difficult for anything to be *the* back story of the movement, much less 
this one.

- Sundar


"That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for 
the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted."
- George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture


>
>From: Gautam John 
>To: Wikimedia India Community list 
>Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 11:37 AM
>Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"
>
>So I read it and then re-read it and for the most part, the journey
>has been well captured. At least for the period in time from when I
>have been associated with this wonderful community.
>
>There is something that struck me though. Now that the journey and the
>story has been captured in the written form, in many ways, this *will*
>form the back story to the Indian community and Wikimedia movement.
>I'm wondering how comfortable everyone is with that?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Best,
>
>Gautam
>
>http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html
>
>___
>Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
>

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Gautam John]

So I read it and then re-read it and for the most part, the journey
has been well captured. At least for the period in time from when I
have been associated with this wonderful community.

There is something that struck me though. Now that the journey and the
story has been captured in the written form, in many ways, this *will*
form the back story to the Indian community and Wikimedia movement.
I'm wondering how comfortable everyone is with that?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Gautam John]

Dear Hisham:

Thanks for posting this to the list.

Nice to see the story being told.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html




On 9 October 2011 02:58, Hisham  wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> A few months ago, the Foundation asked Tory Read to travel to India and
> listen and learn and write about the movement in India.  The objective was
> to harvest experiences and learnings and to have an open discussion around
> what we could all do to further the movement.
> This isn't in the form of a (possibly) long & boring report - but in the
> form of a story.  (Tory's a professional researcher, writer and former
> journalist.)  To put this together, Tory travelled for a couple of weeks
>  across Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore and across towns in Kerala - attending
> community meet-ups and meeting up/speaking with a host of individual
> community members (in these cities and indeed beyond.)
>
> Tory's tale is called, "The India Chronicles", and is available on Wikimedia
> Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_India_Chronicles_(150dpi).pdf
> Do have a read through and do share your views on it - positives and
> negatives - and do feel free to comment on any aspect of it.  It would be
> wonderful to have an engaging conversation on this.
> Warmest Regards,
> hisham
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Pundit Commentator]

Dear Mr. Mundol,

Thank you for sharing this document. A couple of typos not withstanding, it is 
very well written and makes for a highly informative and compelling read to new 
eyes like mine. The broad scope of the report and the depth of details 
enumerated while capturing the on-going story of Wikipedia in India is very 
welcome indeed from the point of view of record-keeping, internal reflection 
and public relations. 

Best regards,

punditcomment

From: his...@wikimedia.org
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 02:58:57 +0530
To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"



Hi Folks,
A few months ago, the Foundation asked Tory Read to travel to India and listen 
and learn and write about the movement in India.  The objective was to harvest 
experiences and learnings and to have an open discussion around what we could 
all do to further the movement.
This isn't in the form of a (possibly) long & boring report - but in the form 
of a story.  (Tory's a professional researcher, writer and former journalist.)  
To put this together, Tory travelled for a couple of weeks  across Mumbai, 
Pune, Bangalore and across towns in Kerala - attending community meet-ups and 
meeting up/speaking with a host of individual community members (in these 
cities and indeed beyond.)

Tory's tale is called, "The India Chronicles", and is available on Wikimedia 
Commons: 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_India_Chronicles_(150dpi).pdf
Do have a read through and do share your views on it - positives and negatives 
- and do feel free to comment on any aspect of it.  It would be wonderful to 
have an engaging conversation on this.
Warmest Regards,
hisham



___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l   
  ___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Wikimediaindia-l] Presenting "The India Chronicles"

[Hisham]

Hi Folks,

A few months ago, the Foundation asked Tory Read to travel to India and listen 
and learn and write about the movement in India.  The objective was to harvest 
experiences and learnings and to have an open discussion around what we could 
all do to further the movement.

This isn't in the form of a (possibly) long & boring report - but in the form 
of a story.  (Tory's a professional researcher, writer and former journalist.)  
To put this together, Tory travelled for a couple of weeks  across Mumbai, 
Pune, Bangalore and across towns in Kerala - attending community meet-ups and 
meeting up/speaking with a host of individual community members (in these 
cities and indeed beyond.)

Tory's tale is called, "The India Chronicles", and is available on Wikimedia 
Commons: 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_India_Chronicles_(150dpi).pdf

Do have a read through and do share your views on it - positives and negatives 
- and do feel free to comment on any aspect of it.  It would be wonderful to 
have an engaging conversation on this.

Warmest Regards,

hisham

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l