Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Aren't we all volunteers here? Atleast the ones not getting paid? On 2 May 2014 14:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > Ravi, I am not a professional. I am a volunteer. > Thanks, > GerardM > > > On 2 May 2014 09:47, Ravishankar wrote: > >> Hoi Gerard, >> >> The disucssion in the mail thread is about cost / benefit comparison of >> two similar outreach events >> >> 1. >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Wiki-Data_India_Marathon >> >> and >> >> 2. >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report >> >> For which Vishnu suggested the following: >> >> >> // Going forward we will not be able to contribute actively in these >> community building efforts due to our current personal and professional >> priorities.// which requires some introspection. >> >> This amounts to saying that since we don't have continuous supply of >> capable volunteers to do such outreach work, we can justify the involvement >> of paid professionals. >> >> This is a dangerous trend which will end up in justifying paid >> professionals involved in all aspects of Wikipedia work except directly >> writing articles. >> >> This is already happening as can be seen at >> >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q12 >> >> This is no way to build a sustainable and self run organic community. >> >> A community doesn't evolve strong leadership and ownership just by >> writing articles. >> >> Occassional vaccum in particular aspects of community activity is >> perfectly acceptable. >> >> Actually, many times we intentionally create this vaccum to motivate new >> comers and take responsibility. Otherwise, they will think there is always >> someone else to take care. And if that someone is paid, there won't be any >> initiative and nurturing from the community at all. >> >> Do you know the most frequently asked question when we do outreach? >> >> * What do you get for doing this? >> >> * What do I get for doing this? >> >> When we say we both get nothing and insist this is a volunteer service, >> immediate trust is established. >> >> When the person doing outreach is getting paid, then this is nothing but >> a sermon and throws away the balance in equation. >> >> //Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates >> to me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum >> of all knowledge". // >> >> You make it sound as though you are teaching rocket science to cave men >> about the need for having paid professionals in the context of your WMNL >> experience. >> >> Let me assure you that the Indian community is well aware and capabale of >> the whole context in which the movement works. >> >> We have a very capable chapter that has run hugely successful programs as >> can be seen here at >> >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FDC_portal/Proposals/2013-2014_round1/Wikimedia_India/Proposal_form#Reflection_on_past_activities_and_innovations >> >> Tamil and Malayalam Wiki communities have worked with their respective >> State Governments, MNCs like Google, built institutional partnerships, got >> content donations all on their own with no formal Wikimedia organization >> involved and ZERO COST. I am sure that the Wikimedia Bangladesh community >> is also quite resourceful. >> >> The need for involving paid professionals arises only when you have a >> formal organization with time bound targets and specialist work for which >> the community members need not always be the best fit or available 24x7. >> So, I am not discounting the need for paid professionals. >> >> But the current trend of employing professionals in volunteer domain is >> disturbing. >> >> We need to have a discussion on what should be strictly in the volunteer >> domain considering the long term effects. >> >> Ravi >> >> ___ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > -- Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan, What goes around, may not necessarily come around, it may simply bounce back. Please sign this petition for Volvo buses in Coimbatore: https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/the-transport-minister-tamil-nadu-introduction-of-volvo-city-buses-in-the-city-of-coimbatore ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit http
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Gerard, I am aware that you have been largely a volunteer except for a brieft part time stint with WMF some time before. And, I have already appreciated your work in WikiData and TranslateWiki as a volunteer. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hoi, Ravi, I am not a professional. I am a volunteer. Thanks, GerardM On 2 May 2014 09:47, Ravishankar wrote: > Hoi Gerard, > > The disucssion in the mail thread is about cost / benefit comparison of > two similar outreach events > > 1. > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Wiki-Data_India_Marathon > > and > > 2. > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report > > For which Vishnu suggested the following: > > > // Going forward we will not be able to contribute actively in these > community building efforts due to our current personal and professional > priorities.// which requires some introspection. > > This amounts to saying that since we don't have continuous supply of > capable volunteers to do such outreach work, we can justify the involvement > of paid professionals. > > This is a dangerous trend which will end up in justifying paid > professionals involved in all aspects of Wikipedia work except directly > writing articles. > > This is already happening as can be seen at > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q12 > > This is no way to build a sustainable and self run organic community. > > A community doesn't evolve strong leadership and ownership just by writing > articles. > > Occassional vaccum in particular aspects of community activity is > perfectly acceptable. > > Actually, many times we intentionally create this vaccum to motivate new > comers and take responsibility. Otherwise, they will think there is always > someone else to take care. And if that someone is paid, there won't be any > initiative and nurturing from the community at all. > > Do you know the most frequently asked question when we do outreach? > > * What do you get for doing this? > > * What do I get for doing this? > > When we say we both get nothing and insist this is a volunteer service, > immediate trust is established. > > When the person doing outreach is getting paid, then this is nothing but a > sermon and throws away the balance in equation. > > //Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates > to me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum > of all knowledge". // > > You make it sound as though you are teaching rocket science to cave men > about the need for having paid professionals in the context of your WMNL > experience. > > Let me assure you that the Indian community is well aware and capabale of > the whole context in which the movement works. > > We have a very capable chapter that has run hugely successful programs as > can be seen here at > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FDC_portal/Proposals/2013-2014_round1/Wikimedia_India/Proposal_form#Reflection_on_past_activities_and_innovations > > Tamil and Malayalam Wiki communities have worked with their respective > State Governments, MNCs like Google, built institutional partnerships, got > content donations all on their own with no formal Wikimedia organization > involved and ZERO COST. I am sure that the Wikimedia Bangladesh community > is also quite resourceful. > > The need for involving paid professionals arises only when you have a > formal organization with time bound targets and specialist work for which > the community members need not always be the best fit or available 24x7. > So, I am not discounting the need for paid professionals. > > But the current trend of employing professionals in volunteer domain is > disturbing. > > We need to have a discussion on what should be strictly in the volunteer > domain considering the long term effects. > > Ravi > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hoi Gerard, The disucssion in the mail thread is about cost / benefit comparison of two similar outreach events 1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Wiki-Data_India_Marathon and 2. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report For which Vishnu suggested the following: // Going forward we will not be able to contribute actively in these community building efforts due to our current personal and professional priorities.// which requires some introspection. This amounts to saying that since we don't have continuous supply of capable volunteers to do such outreach work, we can justify the involvement of paid professionals. This is a dangerous trend which will end up in justifying paid professionals involved in all aspects of Wikipedia work except directly writing articles. This is already happening as can be seen at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q12 This is no way to build a sustainable and self run organic community. A community doesn't evolve strong leadership and ownership just by writing articles. Occassional vaccum in particular aspects of community activity is perfectly acceptable. Actually, many times we intentionally create this vaccum to motivate new comers and take responsibility. Otherwise, they will think there is always someone else to take care. And if that someone is paid, there won't be any initiative and nurturing from the community at all. Do you know the most frequently asked question when we do outreach? * What do you get for doing this? * What do I get for doing this? When we say we both get nothing and insist this is a volunteer service, immediate trust is established. When the person doing outreach is getting paid, then this is nothing but a sermon and throws away the balance in equation. //Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates to me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum of all knowledge". // You make it sound as though you are teaching rocket science to cave men about the need for having paid professionals in the context of your WMNL experience. Let me assure you that the Indian community is well aware and capabale of the whole context in which the movement works. We have a very capable chapter that has run hugely successful programs as can be seen here at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FDC_portal/Proposals/2013-2014_round1/Wikimedia_India/Proposal_form#Reflection_on_past_activities_and_innovations Tamil and Malayalam Wiki communities have worked with their respective State Governments, MNCs like Google, built institutional partnerships, got content donations all on their own with no formal Wikimedia organization involved and ZERO COST. I am sure that the Wikimedia Bangladesh community is also quite resourceful. The need for involving paid professionals arises only when you have a formal organization with time bound targets and specialist work for which the community members need not always be the best fit or available 24x7. So, I am not discounting the need for paid professionals. But the current trend of employing professionals in volunteer domain is disturbing. We need to have a discussion on what should be strictly in the volunteer domain considering the long term effects. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hi Gerard, The discussion, if I am not mistaking, is on paid staffs from India involved with indic wiki, while you're replying with your experience of Netherland and also admit that you have no Idea of it in Indian context. Do you think that your reply here does help readers in getting the issue clearer? I really failed to link it with the topic even after reading it 3 times. Also, you have mentioned that "real problem is its people" would you please elaborate more on this without mentioning Wikidata or Netherland in your explanation as you referred to people of India, not of Netherland. I have felt it insulting for Indians and to me being of Indian origin and contributor of Indic wiki, who had worked hard to get gu.ws out of incubator. Dhaval On 30 Apr 2014 21:10, "Gerard Meijssen" wrote: > Hoi, > I am saying neither. When I describe the efforts by the paid staff of the > Dutch chapter, I find that they are really dedicated and deal with complex > issues where many people and organisations are involved. It takes a deep > understanding and availability in time and is very much supportive of what > the volunteers do. > > This does not detract from the volunteers one bit, they are in fact > supported by the efforts from the Dutch chapter. The efforts by the paid > staff is very much concentrated on the things that the volunteers do not > take up. Consequently things get done and, that is what counts. > > The volunteers are very dedicated in the things they do. The Dutch > volunteers brought you "Wiki loves monuments" for instance :) > Thanks, > GerardM > > > On 30 April 2014 21:53, Karthik Nadar wrote: > >> Hi Gerard, >> >> >>> "/ It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people." >> >> >> I understand two points from this: 1. Either you say that the volunteer >> community here is not dedicated?? 2. Or either the paid community is not >> dedicated. >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm, that's because you are going >> off-topic. >> >> >> Regards, >> Karthik Nadar. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Ravi, >>> When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take >>> up things that volunteers are not able to. They are things that are often >>> complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is >>> much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a >>> full time effort of very dedicated people. >>> >>> Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates >>> to me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum >>> of all knowledge". >>> >>> I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the >>> same league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I >>> said it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India >>> is overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people. >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >>> >>> On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar wrote: >>> Vishnu, Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement. Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff? Please try. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> ___ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >> >> ___ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Volunteers are equally dedicated, if not more, than paid employees. I've known people who have traveled long distances at their own expense to hold workshopa and other events. Rarely have I seen a paid employee work with the same efficiency. On May 1, 2014 1:40 AM, "Gerard Meijssen" wrote: > Hoi, > I am saying neither. When I describe the efforts by the paid staff of the > Dutch chapter, I find that they are really dedicated and deal with complex > issues where many people and organisations are involved. It takes a deep > understanding and availability in time and is very much supportive of what > the volunteers do. > > This does not detract from the volunteers one bit, they are in fact > supported by the efforts from the Dutch chapter. The efforts by the paid > staff is very much concentrated on the things that the volunteers do not > take up. Consequently things get done and, that is what counts. > > The volunteers are very dedicated in the things they do. The Dutch > volunteers brought you "Wiki loves monuments" for instance :) > Thanks, > GerardM > > > On 30 April 2014 21:53, Karthik Nadar wrote: > >> Hi Gerard, >> >> >>> "/ It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people." >> >> >> I understand two points from this: 1. Either you say that the volunteer >> community here is not dedicated?? 2. Or either the paid community is not >> dedicated. >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm, that's because you are going >> off-topic. >> >> >> Regards, >> Karthik Nadar. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Ravi, >>> When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take >>> up things that volunteers are not able to. They are things that are often >>> complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is >>> much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a >>> full time effort of very dedicated people. >>> >>> Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates >>> to me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum >>> of all knowledge". >>> >>> I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the >>> same league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I >>> said it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India >>> is overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people. >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >>> >>> On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar wrote: >>> Vishnu, Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement. Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff? Please try. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> ___ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >> >> ___ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hoi, I am saying neither. When I describe the efforts by the paid staff of the Dutch chapter, I find that they are really dedicated and deal with complex issues where many people and organisations are involved. It takes a deep understanding and availability in time and is very much supportive of what the volunteers do. This does not detract from the volunteers one bit, they are in fact supported by the efforts from the Dutch chapter. The efforts by the paid staff is very much concentrated on the things that the volunteers do not take up. Consequently things get done and, that is what counts. The volunteers are very dedicated in the things they do. The Dutch volunteers brought you "Wiki loves monuments" for instance :) Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 21:53, Karthik Nadar wrote: > Hi Gerard, > > >> "/ It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people." > > > I understand two points from this: 1. Either you say that the volunteer > community here is not dedicated?? 2. Or either the paid community is not > dedicated. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm, that's because you are going > off-topic. > > > Regards, > Karthik Nadar. > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Ravi, >> When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take >> up things that volunteers are not able to. They are things that are often >> complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is >> much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a >> full time effort of very dedicated people. >> >> Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates to >> me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum of >> all knowledge". >> >> I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the same >> league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I said >> it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India is >> overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people. >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> >> On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar wrote: >> >>> Vishnu, >>> >>> Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement. >>> >>> Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff? >>> >>> Please try. >>> >>> Ravi >>> >>> ___ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> >> >> ___ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hi Gerard, > "/ It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people." I understand two points from this: 1. Either you say that the volunteer community here is not dedicated?? 2. Or either the paid community is not dedicated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm, that's because you are going off-topic. Regards, Karthik Nadar. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Ravi, > When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take > up things that volunteers are not able to. They are things that are often > complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is > much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a > full time effort of very dedicated people. > > Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates to > me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum of > all knowledge". > > I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the same > league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I said > it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India is > overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people. > Thanks, > GerardM > > > On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar wrote: > >> Vishnu, >> >> Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement. >> >> Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff? >> >> Please try. >> >> Ravi >> >> ___ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Ravi, When I observe the activities of the Dutch chapter I find that they take up things that volunteers are not able to. They are things that are often complex and take a large network. What the Dutch chapter does for GLAM is much more than reaching out to individual GLAM institutions. It takes a full time effort of very dedicated people. Your assumption that it is about building a better Wikipedia indicates to me how limited your notion is about what it takes to "share in the sum of all knowledge". I do not know CIS enough to categorically state that they are in the same league. What I have seen is however encouraging. What I do know and I said it before, the challenges to bring the sum of all knowledge to India is overwhelming. The biggest challenge apparently is people. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2014 10:02, Ravishankar wrote: > Vishnu, > > Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement. > > Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff? > > Please try. > > Ravi > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Vishnu, Volunteers come and volunteers go. That is the nature of the movement. Do you propose to build a better Wikipedia with paid staff? Please try. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Dear Ravi, On Wednesday 30 April 2014 01:12 PM, Ravishankar wrote: But, when an unusually high amount is spent on a resource person through CIS-A2K, I can't help point out the double standards followed for similar programs planned by WMIN. Please check https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report a similar pan India outreach program done by two volunteers for roughly 13% of this whole Wiki Data Marathon program. With due respect to what has been done... I don't think this takes into account the salary component and if it is only travel expenses then after 3 years the proposed travel budget is comparable. I could not but notice this in the report // Going forward we will not be able to contribute actively in these community building efforts due to our current personal and professional priorities.// which requires some introspection. Cheers, Vishnu ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hi Vishnu, Thanks for identifying the resource person and providing the rationale for inviting him. Hoi Gerard, When I was discussing about a fundamental issue of WMF intervention in India spoiling community dynamics, you came out of nowhere and questioned my bias. Then you went on giving sermons about the need for Wikidata marathon program which is completely off-topic. Then, isn't it only appropriate I question what is your bias :) Why should not I think that you are lobbying for CIS? As a fellow Wikimedia volunteer, I appreciate your commitment and passion for the work you do in projects like TranslateWiki and Wiki Data. I will be glad to welcome you to India if your travel program is assisted by Individual engagement grant or a travel and participation grant straight from WMF. But, when an unusually high amount is spent on a resource person through CIS-A2K, I can't help point out the double standards followed for similar programs planned by WMIN. Please check https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/Tinucherian_and_Shijualex/Wiki_Community_development_in_India_and_newsletter/Report a similar pan India outreach program done by two volunteers for roughly 13% of this whole Wiki Data Marathon program. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Dear Ravi, Please see no. 9 on Meta here [1] where we discussed the potential benefits of Wikidata for Indic projects. In addition to this, I would like to give a broader context and background for this program, which will also help answer some of your concerns. As the community well knows that in the ongoing WMF grant we have international travel component. As per the original approved budget it was Rs. 1,803,248/-, which we revised to Rs. 900,000/-. (Please note that we announced the revision in the budget on this list and sought feedback from the community and also wrote to WMIN EC seeking their feedback). See this for reference [2]. We (Subhashish and I) have used this money to travel to Wikimania 2013-Hongkong. It was a huge learning experience about the movement and I felt it will be so nice for our communities in India to get this exposure. In fact I have invited many of the global Wikimedians to visit India and interact with the communities here. I also felt guilty that I am getting this opportunity and not many volunteers in India, who could put this experience to much better use. At this moment as a Program Director I had taken a unilateral decision to not use the WMF grant for international travel but rather see if we can get global expertise to India with this money and to create interaction opportunities with communities here. You may note that we have not budgeted any international travel in the current budget. Some of Wikimedians on the list may know that my visit to WMDE DivCon was on a scholarship. During this visit I had met Gerard and I was extremely impressed by the possibilities of Wikidata and the long term value add it could have to all the Indic projects. See my post on this list [3]. Gerard also got more interested in the Indic projects and has since then been engaging with volunteers from India. Our conversations continued virtually since then. I have also learnt from Gerard (and it is important to note) that Wikidata could throw open knowledge and images from commons in many of our Indian languages that are small and currently do not have any Wikimedia project or community. Just imagine making available pictures from commons in Gondi and Santali. Looking at these immense possibilities, I had requested him to visit and to demonstrate the possibilities of Wikidata. To which he has agreed but expressed his inability to bear the travel costs. Please note he is a volunteer and is unemployed. I felt it is a good value for money to get him down and we created this page for community consultation [4]. However, these plans could not materialise for various reasons. During this planning stage I did write to friends in the WMIN EC about these plans, asking for their inputs to gain maximum benefit for the various India Wikimedia communities, and asked if they would be interested to co-organize some of the events/locations. Some of the EC members showed interest. Also some of the active community members across languages did know about this plan through many informal conversations and discussions. All of these people knew that Gerard is the resource person. So it is not a secret as you intend to make it sound. Moreover, Wikidata has some complexity and someone like Gerard could share it better. You will also see from the design of the program that it is more intended to strengthen the community. There are plans of involving Open-Data community in India, linguists, etc. Now coming to your question of expense estimate of Rs. 450,000/- towards Resource Person. As we have stated in the budget note here [5] it mostly includes a) his travel to India from Netherlands and visa charges; and b) travel and stay expenses within India during his visits to more than 12 locations within a month's time. In fact it is a lot of work that he committed to do in a month's time, only because of his passion for Wikidata and what it could do for the Indic projects. There was no intention of him making money with this. Apologies that we should have stated the expenditure break-up in more detail than what we currently did and avoided this confusion. We did not allocate this expenditure under Travel and Stay expenses for the following reasons. Gerard was twice rejected visa to India and the consulate suggested that he apply for a Business visa so a Resource Person agreement with "fees" (which otherwise entirely goes for travel and stay expenses), we felt would help. Also we did not want to create any "International Travel" expenditure item in our budget. Hope this helps clarify the background and your concerns. While, we could continue the debate on the value for money of the Wikidata India Marathon, it is unfair to insinuate Gerard in your criticism of the CIS-A2K program plans. Let's focus on the plans in discussion. Will also reply to the question about Wikidata on Meta soon. Gerard, apologies that you got dragged into this. Trust yo
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hoi Gerard, Vishnu Who is the resource person for this Wiki Data Marathon program? Let me continue discussing after I get answer for this simple and straight forward question. Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hoi, The point I made and the point that I make again. You did not ask, you do not know and you consider your opinion to be of paramount importance. In stead of asking you go from a fixed point of view that are limited and denounce a plan because everything has to be done elsewhere first to be relevant/realistic. Let me tell you how I see India. It is frighteningly big. It has a bewildering amount of angles, viewpoints, possibilities and potential. To realise the potential for the possibilities that exist in India, experiments are in order and they do happen. They happen because the scale is so huge. The Netherlands were I come from is small by comparison and in many ways better developed. That does not matter much because India has the potential to become as advanced and developed in the areas that I care for really quickly. What dreams do you have in relation to Wikidata. What potential do you see. How do you realise such dreams. My dreams and how I see them come together are and is documented on my blog. You can see it in the work I do. Now Ravi what scares you or, can you see a future where we work and dream together and "share the sum of the knowledge that is available to us" with everyone. Thanks, GerardM PS you may know that I was disheartened when I heard that the WMIN budget was denied for the reasons given. It sucks. However, there is no point to introduce this here. WMIN and CIS have their own budgets and their own responsibilities. When the two find it in themselves to work together they get more done. More done for the people in India, That is the one thing that is important. On 23 April 2014 20:46, Ravishankar wrote: > Hoi Gerard, > > ( Context for others: > > Please see > > * > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Wiki-Data_India_Marathon > > * > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q14 > > * > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-April/011104.html) > > //If something new has to start and Wikidata is new, then it needs more > than just a video or a conference call.// > > 100s of Wikimedia projects, including many in India, didn't need any kind > of intervention. > > //I gave a presentation to professionals who work in data. It took me an > hour to set up the environment with them and for them so that they could > start.. We had a meeting for three hours and we scratched the surface > enough to make a difference. The fact that we were together ensured good > faith and enough understanding.// > > Are they Wikimedians? It is enough if Wikimedians can make sense of it. > > If Wikimedians are not able to make sense of it, then we need to improve > Wiki Data for the global community too. > > //I have seen some of the agenda and if only a fifth of what is started > pays of it is well worth the investment.// > > Is it? > > > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Narrowing_Focus_presentation_to_the_Board_(26_October_2012).pdf > > talks about reducing focus on events. > > WMIN's FDC proposal was heavily criticized for a focus on events and its > impact was questioned. > > And yet, we have an event for Wiki Data with a proposed budget as follows: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Wiki-Data_India_Marathon#Budget > > This is 29.7% of the annual budget of WMIN ! > > To give a context this is almost 40% of the 2011 Wikimedia India > conference !! > > The single biggest expense in this Wiki Data Marathon program is the cost > for resource person which is 4,50,000 INR. > > So much cost for a resource person for a month hints that this could be > someone visiting India from abroad. > > Any idea who this is ? :) > > Even University faculties don't understand Wikipedia editor and our > markup. > > So, what do we do? Run marathons like this for all Wikipedia projects? > > //Just consider what a challenge it is to bring Wikidata to India in a way > where it actually makes a difference.// > > Please provide evidence that this is an India specific problem. When > communities don't even get the decade long Wikipedia project, it is only > expected that they won't get Wiki Data too. > > How good is Wiki Data adoption in similar parts of the word and how do you > address it? > > Thanks, > > Ravi > > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
[Wikimediaindia-l] Proposed Wiki Data Marathon program by CIS-A2K
Hoi Gerard, ( Context for others: Please see * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Wiki-Data_India_Marathon * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q14 * http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2014-April/011104.html) //If something new has to start and Wikidata is new, then it needs more than just a video or a conference call.// 100s of Wikimedia projects, including many in India, didn't need any kind of intervention. //I gave a presentation to professionals who work in data. It took me an hour to set up the environment with them and for them so that they could start.. We had a meeting for three hours and we scratched the surface enough to make a difference. The fact that we were together ensured good faith and enough understanding.// Are they Wikimedians? It is enough if Wikimedians can make sense of it. If Wikimedians are not able to make sense of it, then we need to improve Wiki Data for the global community too. //I have seen some of the agenda and if only a fifth of what is started pays of it is well worth the investment.// Is it? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Narrowing_Focus_presentation_to_the_Board_(26_October_2012).pdf talks about reducing focus on events. WMIN's FDC proposal was heavily criticized for a focus on events and its impact was questioned. And yet, we have an event for Wiki Data with a proposed budget as follows: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Wiki-Data_India_Marathon#Budget This is 29.7% of the annual budget of WMIN ! To give a context this is almost 40% of the 2011 Wikimedia India conference !! The single biggest expense in this Wiki Data Marathon program is the cost for resource person which is 4,50,000 INR. So much cost for a resource person for a month hints that this could be someone visiting India from abroad. Any idea who this is ? :) Even University faculties don't understand Wikipedia editor and our markup. So, what do we do? Run marathons like this for all Wikipedia projects? //Just consider what a challenge it is to bring Wikidata to India in a way where it actually makes a difference.// Please provide evidence that this is an India specific problem. When communities don't even get the decade long Wikipedia project, it is only expected that they won't get Wiki Data too. How good is Wiki Data adoption in similar parts of the word and how do you address it? Thanks, Ravi ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
