Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Vickram Crishna]

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:03 PM, mayur  wrote:

> Hi,
> I think India chapter should support Mumbai/Pune community, Both these
> community have worked hard and seeking Chapter Support. This is a good time
> to take good intiative by India Chapter.
>
> Regards
> Mayur
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Pradeep Mohandas <
> pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> Just a clarification, since I was a little flustered while writing this -
>>
>> On 9 June 2011 22:46, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:
>>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> I agree with points made by User:AroundTheGlobe and Ashwin in the thread.
>>> I think holding a proper discussion on the modalities of the Organising
>>> Committee would ensure that the event will not happen in 2011.
>>>
>>
>> I meant that having a discussion about the structure of the Organising
>> Committee as the Chapter has suggested would ensure that no event will
>> happen in 2011.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, I am out of the city nearly this entire month, but I have
been following this discussion whenever possible, with quite some dismay.
Agonising, because I look forward to being able to contribute whatever I can
to making the event something which we will all be satisfied, but the
current truth being that I am hamstrung for now.

These does seem to be a huge disconnect between action at an
'organisational' level, and the activities necessary for organising this
event.

But hopefully, the disconnect is largely a communication issue, and not
seminal. Certainly several mails from Chapter workers belie the 'less
sensitive' communications sent earlier, that have rubbed so many of us raw,
and sparked this flaming row.

Let's put that behind us, and let's look at working collaboratively, the
essence of wiki. Deadlines and formats that predetermine deadlines should
play less of a role, especially for these time-sensitive situations. Let's
just do all we can, pulling together to make this event something to look
back happily upon.

-- 
Vickram
Fool On The Hill 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

The chapter is supporting this as stated earlier. Every wikipedian,
irrespective of language, state, nationality, should proudly support this.
Regards,

Sent from my Motorola L9. Please excuse spelling errors.

On Jun 9, 2011 11:03 PM, "mayur"  wrote:

Hi,
I think India chapter should support Mumbai/Pune community, Both these
community have worked hard and seeking Chapter Support. This is a good time
to take good intiative by India Chapter.

Regards
Mayur

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Pradeep Mohandas <
pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > hi,
> >
> > Just a clarification, since I was a little flustered while writing this -
> >
> > On 9 June ...
>
> > ___
> > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> > Wikimediaindia-l...
>


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[CherianTinu Abraham]

I strongly support and congratulate the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community in
planning & organizing the India Wiki conference this year. If I may speak on
behalf of the Bangalore community, till now we have no plans of holding any
such major event this year and would like to convey our heartfelt support
for the Mumbai event.

There have been lots of misunderstandings , tensions and confusions flying
around this list and I humbly appeal to all the stakeholders to join hands
and make this event a huge success. It is also imperative that the chapter ,
community and the Wikimedia India office to work together in the interests
of the Wikimedia movement in the country. I also request the community
members to be the actively part of the chapter and lead the chapter
efforts.

Wikimedia is also about free culture movement and we also have a unique
diverse cultural wiki community and it is natural to have differences but
let us "agree to disagree" when needed. I am sure the chapter may want to be
seen "less bureaucratic" in future while equally aligning with its own
responsibilities and charted goals.  Let us also realize that the chapter
needs our continued support and understanding.

This is a national mailing list and possibly such flame wars may cause many
leaving the list, so let us still keep this a very beautiful place :)

All the best wishes , Mumbai-Pune !

Regards
Tinu Cherian



On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 8:53 PM,  wrote:

>  Hi Arjuna,
>
> Thanks for your response. The issue here is time - and we dont have any of
> it. We are running against time for the logistics. For the scale of the
> conference we have planned, we should have had an Event Organising Committee
> in place by now and have started locking the logistics. If we are to host
> this we require ample time to ensure a successful event.
>
> We have made public our intention to host this conference way back in April
> and even requested people to volunteer for the Organising Committee and
> various sub-committees on this same mailing list last month. You yourself
> came to Pune Meetup 14 in May and were given a presentation on the
> preparations until then. The next we heard was only on this mailing list
> earlier this week. All through this the chapter was silent and no other
> community came forward with a rival bid. On the other hand, communities
> across India have come forward supporting us and we are grateful for that.
> Several people reverted to our volunteer appeal and several people pledged
> remote support.
>
> It is not that Mumbai/Pune are against any possible rival bid, it is just
> that time is against us at this point. We have done a lot of work this far
> which will all go down the drain if things are not firmed up ASAP. *We
> request that if there is anyone who wants to place a rival bid, they simply
> email this list with "A non binding expression of interest" within the next
> 24 hours.* We can then wait and give requisite time for you to formally
> place something - and there can be a fair evaluation of all the proposed
> hosts. If there isnt anyone else, let us not waste time and get going on
> where we should have been right now - off the black board and onto the
> ground. We have lost enough time as things stand. I hope this is fair enough
> for all parties concerned.
>
> Kind Regards,
> User:AroundTheGlobe
>
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:02:08 +0530
> > From: arjunar...@googlemail.com
> > To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations
>
> >
> > Hi Wikimedians,
> >
> >
> > Thanks Ashwin, for initiating the feedback thread on the communication
> > from the Chapter. As Chapter  starts engaging with the Community, I
> > look  this as a  positive sign to build the relationship
> > ('storming'[1] part of a typical team building process).
> >
> > Of course, there are whole lot of stuff that EC has initiated
> > (Donations, projects, City/Language SIG) and we look forward to the
> > feedback on that as well and request that the feedback be not colored
> > by the perception generated and shared on Wiki India Conference topic.
> >
> > Keep this discussion going, so that we can collect feedback for a day
> > or two and address the same after discussions in EC.
> >
> > Let me assure you, that we value all your feedback and  will  revert
> > to you  with further updates on the communication in few days time.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Arjuna Rao Chavala
> > President, Wikimedia Chapter
> > [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development
> > On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Ashwin Baindur
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > The national 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[mayur]

Hi,
I think India chapter should support Mumbai/Pune community, Both these
community have worked hard and seeking Chapter Support. This is a good time
to take good intiative by India Chapter.

Regards
Mayur

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Pradeep Mohandas <
pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> hi,
>
> Just a clarification, since I was a little flustered while writing this -
>
> On 9 June 2011 22:46, Pradeep Mohandas  wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> I agree with points made by User:AroundTheGlobe and Ashwin in the thread.
>> I think holding a proper discussion on the modalities of the Organising
>> Committee would ensure that the event will not happen in 2011.
>>
>
> I meant that having a discussion about the structure of the Organising
> Committee as the Chapter has suggested would ensure that no event will
> happen in 2011.
>
> warm regards,
> Pradeep
>
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Pradeep Mohandas]

hi,

Just a clarification, since I was a little flustered while writing this -

On 9 June 2011 22:46, Pradeep Mohandas  wrote:

> hi,
>
> I agree with points made by User:AroundTheGlobe and Ashwin in the thread. I
> think holding a proper discussion on the modalities of the Organising
> Committee would ensure that the event will not happen in 2011.
>

I meant that having a discussion about the structure of the Organising
Committee as the Chapter has suggested would ensure that no event will
happen in 2011.

warm regards,
Pradeep
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Pradeep Mohandas]

hi,

Cross posted to the Wikimedia-India, Wikimedia-Mumbai and Wikimedia-Pune
mailing lists.

I agree with points made by User:AroundTheGlobe and Ashwin in the thread. I
think holding a proper discussion on the modalities of the Organising
Committee would ensure that the event will not happen in 2011. We would
therefore request that the Chapter consider the Organising Committee
proposed comprising of various Community and Foundation members and provide
a list of members that it would like to be represented by as soon as
possible.

I would also like to add that Jimmy Wales has expressed availability to
attend the event on November 18, 19 and 20.

warm regards,
Pradeep Mohandas





On 9 June 2011 20:53,  wrote:

>  Hi Arjuna,
>
> Thanks for your response. The issue here is time - and we dont have any of
> it. We are running against time for the logistics. For the scale of the
> conference we have planned, we should have had an Event Organising Committee
> in place by now and have started locking the logistics. If we are to host
> this we require ample time to ensure a successful event.
>
> We have made public our intention to host this conference way back in April
> and even requested people to volunteer for the Organising Committee and
> various sub-committees on this same mailing list last month. You yourself
> came to Pune Meetup 14 in May and were given a presentation on the
> preparations until then. The next we heard was only on this mailing list
> earlier this week. All through this the chapter was silent and no other
> community came forward with a rival bid. On the other hand, communities
> across India have come forward supporting us and we are grateful for that.
> Several people reverted to our volunteer appeal and several people pledged
> remote support.
>
> It is not that Mumbai/Pune are against any possible rival bid, it is just
> that time is against us at this point. We have done a lot of work this far
> which will all go down the drain if things are not firmed up ASAP. *We
> request that if there is anyone who wants to place a rival bid, they simply
> email this list with "A non binding expression of interest" within the next
> 24 hours.* We can then wait and give requisite time for you to formally
> place something - and there can be a fair evaluation of all the proposed
> hosts. If there isnt anyone else, let us not waste time and get going on
> where we should have been right now - off the black board and onto the
> ground. We have lost enough time as things stand. I hope this is fair enough
> for all parties concerned.
>
> Kind Regards,
> User:AroundTheGlobe
>
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:02:08 +0530
> > From: arjunar...@googlemail.com
> > To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations
>
> >
> > Hi Wikimedians,
> >
> >
> > Thanks Ashwin, for initiating the feedback thread on the communication
> > from the Chapter. As Chapter  starts engaging with the Community, I
> > look  this as a  positive sign to build the relationship
> > ('storming'[1] part of a typical team building process).
> >
> > Of course, there are whole lot of stuff that EC has initiated
> > (Donations, projects, City/Language SIG) and we look forward to the
> > feedback on that as well and request that the feedback be not colored
> > by the perception generated and shared on Wiki India Conference topic.
> >
> > Keep this discussion going, so that we can collect feedback for a day
> > or two and address the same after discussions in EC.
> >
> > Let me assure you, that we value all your feedback and  will  revert
> > to you  with further updates on the communication in few days time.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Arjuna Rao Chavala
> > President, Wikimedia Chapter
> > [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development
> > On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Ashwin Baindur
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > The national chapter recently informed the community about its
> Membership and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
> > >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
> > > In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of
> Wikiconferences was released.
> > > http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
> > > Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
> > >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
> > > Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification
> from the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no
> discussion online. This is becau

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[wheredevelsdare]

Hi Arjuna,

Thanks for your response. The issue here is time - and we dont have any of it. 
We are running against time for the logistics. For the scale of the conference 
we have planned, we should have had an Event Organising Committee in place by 
now and have started locking the logistics. If we are to host this we require 
ample time to ensure a successful event.

We have made public our intention to host this conference way back in April and 
even requested people to volunteer for the Organising Committee and various 
sub-committees on this same mailing list last month. You yourself came to Pune 
Meetup 14 in May and were given a presentation on the preparations until then. 
The next we heard was only on this mailing list earlier this week. All through 
this the chapter was silent and no other community came forward with a rival 
bid. On the other hand, communities across India have come forward supporting 
us and we are grateful for that. Several people reverted to our volunteer 
appeal and several people pledged remote support.

It is not that Mumbai/Pune are against any possible rival bid, it is just that 
time is against us at this point. We have done a lot of work this far which 
will all go down the drain if things are not firmed up ASAP. We request that if 
there is anyone who wants to place a rival bid, they simply email this list 
with "A non binding expression of interest" within the next 24 hours. We can 
then wait and give requisite time for you to formally place something - and 
there can be a fair evaluation of all the proposed hosts. If there isnt anyone 
else, let us not waste time and get going on where we should have been right 
now - off the black board and onto the ground. We have lost enough time as 
things stand. I hope this is fair enough for all parties concerned.

Kind Regards,
User:AroundTheGlobe

> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:02:08 +0530
> From: arjunar...@googlemail.com
> To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations
> 
> Hi Wikimedians,
> 
> 
> Thanks Ashwin, for initiating the feedback thread on the communication
> from the Chapter. As Chapter  starts engaging with the Community, I
> look  this as a  positive sign to build the relationship
> ('storming'[1] part of a typical team building process).
> 
> Of course, there are whole lot of stuff that EC has initiated
> (Donations, projects, City/Language SIG) and we look forward to the
> feedback on that as well and request that  the feedback be not colored
> by the perception generated and shared on Wiki India Conference topic.
> 
> Keep this discussion going, so that we can collect feedback for a day
> or two and address the same after discussions in EC.
> 
> Let me assure you, that we value all your feedback and  will  revert
> to you  with further updates on the communication in few days time.
> 
> Thanks
> Arjuna Rao Chavala
> President, Wikimedia Chapter
> [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Ashwin Baindur
>  wrote:
> >
> > The national chapter recently informed the community about its Membership 
> > and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
> > In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of Wikiconferences 
> > was released.
> > http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
> > Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
> > Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification from 
> > the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no 
> > discussion online. This is because the recent announcement of the 
> > framework, in conjunction with other issues, led to the community believing 
> > that the chapter had forsaken it.
> > A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted way back in 
> > March by the Mumbai community and they asked the Pune community to co-host 
> > it to which the Pune community agreed. As India now has a national chapter, 
> > we naturally asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more 
> > than two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded saying that the 
> > community was invited to submit their proposal, duly modified as per the 
> > said framework, and resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The 
> > cavaliar treatment of the serious efforts put in to date by the communities 
> > and the contents of the Framework of Regulations were disturbing to the 
> > community.
> > At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory Framework as just 
>

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Arjuna Rao Chavala]

Hi Wikimedians,


Thanks Ashwin, for initiating the feedback thread on the communication
from the Chapter. As Chapter  starts engaging with the Community, I
look  this as a  positive sign to build the relationship
('storming'[1] part of a typical team building process).

Of course, there are whole lot of stuff that EC has initiated
(Donations, projects, City/Language SIG) and we look forward to the
feedback on that as well and request that  the feedback be not colored
by the perception generated and shared on Wiki India Conference topic.

Keep this discussion going, so that we can collect feedback for a day
or two and address the same after discussions in EC.

Let me assure you, that we value all your feedback and  will  revert
to you  with further updates on the communication in few days time.

Thanks
Arjuna Rao Chavala
President, Wikimedia Chapter
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development
On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Ashwin Baindur
 wrote:
>
> The national chapter recently informed the community about its Membership and 
> Community engagement plan -June 2011.
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
> In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of Wikiconferences was 
> released.
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
> Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
> Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification from 
> the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no 
> discussion online. This is because the recent announcement of the framework, 
> in conjunction with other issues, led to the community believing that the 
> chapter had forsaken it.
> A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted way back in March 
> by the Mumbai community and they asked the Pune community to co-host it to 
> which the Pune community agreed. As India now has a national chapter, we 
> naturally asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more than 
> two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded saying that the 
> community was invited to submit their proposal, duly modified as per the said 
> framework, and resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The cavaliar 
> treatment of the serious efforts put in to date by the communities and the 
> contents of the Framework of Regulations were disturbing to the community.
> At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory Framework as just 
> another logical and reasonable document, but its language, text and subtext 
> upset the community, in light of Chapter's attitude.
> The first and over-riding issue was the type of language used and its 
> indication of the relation between chapter and communities. We all know that 
> the Wikimedia Foundation encourages national chapters so that the community 
> and creation of knowledge by them is facilitated. However, the language 
> herein clearly gives a message - that the Indian chapter is boss and all 
> Indian wikimedian communities are subservient to it.
> While that is a great inequity in itself, the community was also aggrieved 
> that the framework has been foisted on them without discussion, without any 
> attempt to get them to participate and buy in into the plan, without 
> community consensus and without any consideration of the community's 
> interests. This feudalistic attitude is considered to be an anachronism in 
> volunteer driven communities of the 21st Centuries especially in India. So, 
> no matter whether the framework is good or bad, sensible or not, the approach 
> to the community taken by the chapter is to be firmly objected to and 
> resisted.
> The Mumbai & Pune community supports the chapter, and have defended the 
> chapter on number of occasions in email discussions. Members of the two 
> communities have enthusiastically joined the chapter once membership opened. 
> A member of the Mumbai and a member of the Pune community are the first two 
> members to join by NEFT and physical cheque. To the best of my knowledge 24 
> members from Pune joined the chapter in response to Arjuna Rao Chavala's 
> appeal for member ships when he came last month to our Pune meetup.
> We earnestly believe that India needs an active, sympathetic, facilitative 
> and supportive chapter. We look forward to heartily cooperating with such a 
> chapter - alas, the chapter's latest tune was nothing of that kind. It seemed 
> to be indicative of wanting power and to dominate.
> The third issue, were the "black" provisions of the framework. Each of the 
> sentences seemed to imply negative connotations for the community.
> To give you some examples of the "black" provisions -
> Example one - Finance
> The responsibilities of the Host city team included "Fund raising", whereas 
> the corresponding responsibility of the Chapter Team was "Responsible for 
> facil

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Shiju Alex]

>
> I think it's great that there is communication, and I'd like to believe
> that the difficulties expressed are not insurmountable.
>

yeah that is true. All the issues can be sorted out once we have frequent
open communication.

According to me, the ideal solution for this year would be to support the
Mumbai-Pune community since they already have done lot of ground work..



Shiju


On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Achal Prabhala  wrote:

> I think it's great that there is communication, and I'd like to believe
> that the difficulties expressed are not insurmountable.
>
> I would also like to believe that the chapter and community are entirely
> capable of working out a collaborative plan together. The chapter
> executive committee knows what it is collectively capable of and
> interested in, and with serious community input - tacit suggestions as
> to what the community would like the chapter to do - the chapter will
> have tangible 'wants' to consider. The chapter, it's executive committee
> and it's members have a choice in the matter, of course, and it is
> likely that they will themselves have ideas, and not want to execute
> everything that is suggested - however, those suggestions can be turned
> back to the community to carry out.
>
> Discussions oriented towards having some or a large part of the chapter
> agenda driven by community input could be a formal part of the
> WikiConference 2011; it could also become an annual feature, by, say,
> having a day devoted to the exercise every year. I'm unsure of how the
> WikiConference in India squares off with the proposed annual chapter
> AGM, though I assume that the former could be better used for planning
> and discussion, while the latter is best suited for bureaucratic
> discussions, elections, and other technical aspects.
>
> To me, it appears like we need to think about a few, specific things:
>
> 1) The 2011 WikiConference: are there other communities with proposals
> or is the Mumbai/Pune proposal the only feasible one on the table?
> 2) If so, how will the chapter work with the Mumbai/Pune community to
> make a WikiConference happen this year to the satisfaction of everyone
> concerned?
> 3) Once the WikiConference 2011 is decided, how can the community and
> chapter evolve a framework by which the chapter's plans are up for
> discussion and input?
>
> Cheers,
> Achal
>
>
>
> On Thursday 09 June 2011 12:31 PM, jayanta nath wrote:
> > I am full agree with Shiju. We should support Mumbai/Pune community to
> > make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference. Community and
> > Chapter should help each other.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Shiju Alex  > > wrote:
> >
> > In fact all of us know the effort and pain took by Mumbai/Pune
> > community to make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference.
> > They have reached out to almost all community members and asked
> > for the support. As per the below mail they have reached chapter
> > also. The response from chapter is also listed below :)
> >
> > Chapter should support the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community; not
> > to discourage/derail the great work done by a community.
> >
> > There are many other points listed by Ashwin in the below mail,
> > all those need to be discussed.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Ashwin Baindur
> > mailto:ashwin.bain...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > The national chapter recently informed the community about its
> > Membership and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
> >
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
> >
> > In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of
> > Wikiconferences was released.
> >
> > http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
> >
> > Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
> >
> >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
> >
> > Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for
> > clarification from the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory
> > framework when there was no discussion online. This is because
> > the recent announcement of the framework, in conjunction with
> > other issues, led to the community believing that the chapter
> > had forsaken it.
> >
> > A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted
> > way back in March by the Mumbai community and they asked the
> > Pune community to co-host it to which the Pune community
> > agreed. As India now has a national chapter, we naturally
> > asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more
> > than two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded
> > saying that the community was invited to submit their
> > proposal, duly modified as per the said framework, and
> > re

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Anivar Aravind]

> On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Shiju Alex  wrote:
>> In fact all of us know the effort and pain took by Mumbai/Pune community to
>> make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference. They have reached out
>> to almost all community members and asked for the support. As per the below
>> mail they have reached chapter also. The response from chapter is also
>> listed below :)
>>
>> Chapter should support the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community; not to
>> discourage/derail the great work done by a community.
>>
>> There are many other points listed by Ashwin in the below mail, all those
>> need to be discussed.

Corrected typos


 +1 Shiju . A healthy relationship is a must for community growth . I
suggest Chapter to not to make such restrictive
regulations/frameworks or project for the time being, before AGM
starts (after membership periods) , since your role on establishing
chapter is completed, and the very next step is opening chapter for
community ownership

 Anivar

___
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Anivar Aravind]

+1 Shiju . A healthy relationship is a must for community growth . I
suggest Charter to not to make such restrictive
regulations/frameworks or project for the time being, before AGM
starts (after membership periods) , since your role on establishing
chapter is completed, and the very next step is opening chapter for
community ownership

Anivar


On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Shiju Alex  wrote:
> In fact all of us know the effort and pain took by Mumbai/Pune community to
> make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference. They have reached out
> to almost all community members and asked for the support. As per the below
> mail they have reached chapter also. The response from chapter is also
> listed below :)
>
> Chapter should support the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community; not to
> discourage/derail the great work done by a community.
>
> There are many other points listed by Ashwin in the below mail, all those
> need to be discussed.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Ashwin Baindur 
> wrote:
>>
>> The national chapter recently informed the community about its Membership
>> and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
>>
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
>> In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of Wikiconferences
>> was released.
>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
>> Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
>>
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
>> Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification
>> from the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no
>> discussion online. This is because the recent announcement of the framework,
>> in conjunction with other issues, led to the community believing that the
>> chapter had forsaken it.
>> A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted way back in
>> March by the Mumbai community and they asked the Pune community to co-host
>> it to which the Pune community agreed. As India now has a national chapter,
>> we naturally asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more
>> than two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded saying that the
>> community was invited to submit their proposal, duly modified as per the
>> said framework, and resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The
>> cavaliar treatment of the serious efforts put in to date by the communities
>> and the contents of the Framework of Regulations were disturbing to the
>> community.
>> At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory Framework as just
>> another logical and reasonable document, but its language, text and subtext
>> upset the community, in light of Chapter's attitude.
>> The first and over-riding issue was the type of language used and its
>> indication of the relation between chapter and communities. We all know that
>> the Wikimedia Foundation encourages national chapters so that the community
>> and creation of knowledge by them is facilitated. However, the language
>> herein clearly gives a message - that the Indian chapter is boss and all
>> Indian wikimedian communities are subservient to it.
>> While that is a great inequity in itself, the community was also aggrieved
>> that the framework has been foisted on them without discussion, without any
>> attempt to get them to participate and buy in into the plan, without
>> community consensus and without any consideration of the community's
>> interests. This feudalistic attitude is considered to be an anachronism in
>> volunteer driven communities of the 21st Centuries especially in India. So,
>> no matter whether the framework is good or bad, sensible or not, the
>> approach to the community taken by the chapter is to be firmly objected to
>> and resisted.
>> The Mumbai & Pune community supports the chapter, and have defended the
>> chapter on number of occasions in email discussions. Members of the two
>> communities have enthusiastically joined the chapter once membership opened.
>> A member of the Mumbai and a member of the Pune community are the first two
>> members to join by NEFT and physical cheque. To the best of my knowledge 24
>> members from Pune joined the chapter in response to Arjuna Rao Chavala's
>> appeal for member ships when he came last month to our Pune meetup.
>> We earnestly believe that India needs an active, sympathetic, facilitative
>> and supportive chapter. We look forward to heartily cooperating with such a
>> chapter - alas, the chapter's latest tune was nothing of that kind. It
>> seemed to be indicative of wanting power and to dominate.
>> The third issue, were the "black" provisions of the framework. Each of the
>> sentences seemed to imply negative connotations for the community.
>> To give you some examples of the "black" provisions -
>> Example one - Finance
>> The responsibilities of the Host city team included "Fund raising",
>> whereas the corresponding respons

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Achal Prabhala]

I think it's great that there is communication, and I'd like to believe 
that the difficulties expressed are not insurmountable.

I would also like to believe that the chapter and community are entirely 
capable of working out a collaborative plan together. The chapter 
executive committee knows what it is collectively capable of and 
interested in, and with serious community input - tacit suggestions as 
to what the community would like the chapter to do - the chapter will 
have tangible 'wants' to consider. The chapter, it's executive committee 
and it's members have a choice in the matter, of course, and it is 
likely that they will themselves have ideas, and not want to execute 
everything that is suggested - however, those suggestions can be turned 
back to the community to carry out.

Discussions oriented towards having some or a large part of the chapter 
agenda driven by community input could be a formal part of the 
WikiConference 2011; it could also become an annual feature, by, say, 
having a day devoted to the exercise every year. I'm unsure of how the 
WikiConference in India squares off with the proposed annual chapter 
AGM, though I assume that the former could be better used for planning 
and discussion, while the latter is best suited for bureaucratic 
discussions, elections, and other technical aspects.

To me, it appears like we need to think about a few, specific things:

1) The 2011 WikiConference: are there other communities with proposals 
or is the Mumbai/Pune proposal the only feasible one on the table?
2) If so, how will the chapter work with the Mumbai/Pune community to 
make a WikiConference happen this year to the satisfaction of everyone 
concerned?
3) Once the WikiConference 2011 is decided, how can the community and 
chapter evolve a framework by which the chapter's plans are up for 
discussion and input?

Cheers,
Achal



On Thursday 09 June 2011 12:31 PM, jayanta nath wrote:
> I am full agree with Shiju. We should support Mumbai/Pune community to 
> make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference. Community and 
> Chapter should help each other.
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Shiju Alex  > wrote:
>
> In fact all of us know the effort and pain took by Mumbai/Pune
> community to make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference.
> They have reached out to almost all community members and asked
> for the support. As per the below mail they have reached chapter
> also. The response from chapter is also listed below :)
>
> Chapter should support the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community; not
> to discourage/derail the great work done by a community.
>
> There are many other points listed by Ashwin in the below mail,
> all those need to be discussed.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Ashwin Baindur
> mailto:ashwin.bain...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> The national chapter recently informed the community about its
> Membership and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
>
> 
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
>
> In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of
> Wikiconferences was released.
>
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
>
> Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
>
> 
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
>
> Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for
> clarification from the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory
> framework when there was no discussion online. This is because
> the recent announcement of the framework, in conjunction with
> other issues, led to the community believing that the chapter
> had forsaken it.
>
> A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted
> way back in March by the Mumbai community and they asked the
> Pune community to co-host it to which the Pune community
> agreed. As India now has a national chapter, we naturally
> asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more
> than two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded
> saying that the community was invited to submit their
> proposal, duly modified as per the said framework, and
> resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The cavaliar
> treatment of the serious efforts put in to date by the
> communities and the contents of the Framework of Regulations
> were disturbing to the community.
>
> At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory
> Framework as just another logical and reasonable document, but
> its language, text and subtext upset the community, in light
> of Chapter's attitude.
>
> The first and over-riding issue was the type of language used
> and its indicat

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[jayanta nath]

I am full agree with Shiju. We should support Mumbai/Pune community to make
arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference. Community and Chapter
should help each other.

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:

> In fact all of us know the effort and pain took by Mumbai/Pune community to
> make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference. They have reached out
> to almost all community members and asked for the support. As per the below
> mail they have reached chapter also. The response from chapter is also
> listed below :)
>
> Chapter should support the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community; not to
> discourage/derail the great work done by a community.
>
> There are many other points listed by Ashwin in the below mail, all those
> need to be discussed.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Ashwin Baindur 
> wrote:
>
>> The national chapter recently informed the community about its Membership
>> and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
>>
>>
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
>>
>> In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of Wikiconferences
>> was released.
>>
>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
>>
>> Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
>>
>>
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
>>
>> Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification
>> from the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no
>> discussion online. This is because the recent announcement of the framework,
>> in conjunction with other issues, led to the community believing that the
>> chapter had forsaken it.
>>
>> A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted way back in
>> March by the Mumbai community and they asked the Pune community to co-host
>> it to which the Pune community agreed. As India now has a national chapter,
>> we naturally asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more
>> than two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded saying that the
>> community was invited to submit their proposal, duly modified as per the
>> said framework, and resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The
>> cavaliar treatment of the serious efforts put in to date by the communities
>> and the contents of the Framework of Regulations were disturbing to the
>> community.
>>
>> At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory Framework as just
>> another logical and reasonable document, but its language, text and subtext
>> upset the community, in light of Chapter's attitude.
>>
>> The first and over-riding issue was the type of language used and its
>> indication of the relation between chapter and communities. We all know that
>> the Wikimedia Foundation encourages national chapters so that the community
>> and creation of knowledge by them is facilitated. However, the language
>> herein clearly gives a message - that the Indian chapter is boss and all
>> Indian wikimedian communities are subservient to it.
>>
>> While that is a great inequity in itself, the community was also aggrieved
>> that the framework has been foisted on them without discussion, without any
>> attempt to get them to participate and buy in into the plan, without
>> community consensus and without any consideration of the community's
>> interests. This feudalistic attitude is considered to be an anachronism in
>> volunteer driven communities of the 21st Centuries especially in India. So,
>> no matter whether the framework is good or bad, sensible or not, the
>> approach to the community taken by the chapter is to be firmly objected to
>> and resisted.
>>
>> The Mumbai & Pune community supports the chapter, and have defended the
>> chapter on number of occasions in email discussions. Members of the two
>> communities have enthusiastically joined the chapter once membership opened.
>> A member of the Mumbai and a member of the Pune community are the first two
>> members to join by NEFT and physical cheque. To the best of my knowledge 24
>> members from Pune joined the chapter in response to Arjuna Rao Chavala's
>> appeal for member ships when he came last month to our Pune meetup.
>>
>> We earnestly believe that India needs an active, sympathetic, facilitative
>> and supportive chapter. We look forward to heartily cooperating with such a
>> chapter - alas, the chapter's latest tune was nothing of that kind. It
>> seemed to be indicative of wanting power and to dominate.
>>
>> The third issue, were the "black" provisions of the framework. Each of the
>> sentences seemed to imply negative connotations for the community.
>>
>> To give you some examples of the "black" provisions -
>>
>> Example one - Finance
>>
>> The responsibilities of the Host city team included "Fund raising",
>> whereas the corresponding responsibility of the Chapter Team was
>> "Responsible for facilitating financial operations and accountability for
>> finances for the 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[Shiju Alex]

In fact all of us know the effort and pain took by Mumbai/Pune community to
make arrangements for the Wikimedia India conference. They have reached out
to almost all community members and asked for the support. As per the below
mail they have reached chapter also. The response from chapter is also
listed below :)

Chapter should support the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community; not to
discourage/derail the great work done by a community.

There are many other points listed by Ashwin in the below mail, all those
need to be discussed.



On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Ashwin Baindur wrote:

> The national chapter recently informed the community about its Membership
> and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
>
> In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of Wikiconferences
> was released.
>
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
>
> Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
>
> Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification from
> the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no
> discussion online. This is because the recent announcement of the framework,
> in conjunction with other issues, led to the community believing that the
> chapter had forsaken it.
>
> A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted way back in
> March by the Mumbai community and they asked the Pune community to co-host
> it to which the Pune community agreed. As India now has a national chapter,
> we naturally asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more
> than two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded saying that the
> community was invited to submit their proposal, duly modified as per the
> said framework, and resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The
> cavaliar treatment of the serious efforts put in to date by the communities
> and the contents of the Framework of Regulations were disturbing to the
> community.
>
> At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory Framework as just
> another logical and reasonable document, but its language, text and subtext
> upset the community, in light of Chapter's attitude.
>
> The first and over-riding issue was the type of language used and its
> indication of the relation between chapter and communities. We all know that
> the Wikimedia Foundation encourages national chapters so that the community
> and creation of knowledge by them is facilitated. However, the language
> herein clearly gives a message - that the Indian chapter is boss and all
> Indian wikimedian communities are subservient to it.
>
> While that is a great inequity in itself, the community was also aggrieved
> that the framework has been foisted on them without discussion, without any
> attempt to get them to participate and buy in into the plan, without
> community consensus and without any consideration of the community's
> interests. This feudalistic attitude is considered to be an anachronism in
> volunteer driven communities of the 21st Centuries especially in India. So,
> no matter whether the framework is good or bad, sensible or not, the
> approach to the community taken by the chapter is to be firmly objected to
> and resisted.
>
> The Mumbai & Pune community supports the chapter, and have defended the
> chapter on number of occasions in email discussions. Members of the two
> communities have enthusiastically joined the chapter once membership opened.
> A member of the Mumbai and a member of the Pune community are the first two
> members to join by NEFT and physical cheque. To the best of my knowledge 24
> members from Pune joined the chapter in response to Arjuna Rao Chavala's
> appeal for member ships when he came last month to our Pune meetup.
>
> We earnestly believe that India needs an active, sympathetic, facilitative
> and supportive chapter. We look forward to heartily cooperating with such a
> chapter - alas, the chapter's latest tune was nothing of that kind. It
> seemed to be indicative of wanting power and to dominate.
>
> The third issue, were the "black" provisions of the framework. Each of the
> sentences seemed to imply negative connotations for the community.
>
> To give you some examples of the "black" provisions -
>
> Example one - Finance
>
> The responsibilities of the Host city team included "Fund raising", whereas
> the corresponding responsibility of the Chapter Team was "Responsible for
> facilitating financial operations and accountability for finances for the
> event".
>
> The message conveyed was that the community was responsible for raiising
> funds but only the chapter was allowed to decide how it was spent. No
> commitment of raising monetary support was made by the chapter for the
> event.
>
> Example two - Logistics
>
> The responsibility for the "Host city team" is mentioned as bein

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

[wheredevelsdare]

Just to sum things up - the mood at the Mumbai/Pune community was 
extremely gloomy when we received the first Chapter email with the 
framework. After all this was a Community initiative which we requested 
the chapter to back. We never expected so much bureaucracy. However, the
 clarification from the Chapter did clear up a lot of bad air yesterday 
and after this positive step from the Chapter we look forward to ironing
 out all the differences and having a good working relationship with the
 Chapter. 


We appeal not only the Chapter but also to Communities across India to publicly 
support us in this initiative.
Kind Regards,
User:AroundTheGlobe

On behalf of the Mumbai and Pune Community

Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 11:03:14 +0530
From: ashwin.bain...@gmail.com
To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
CC: wikimedia-in-...@lists.wikimedia.org; wikimedia-in-...@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations

The national chapter recently informed the community about its Membership and 
Community engagement plan -June 2011. 
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html

In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of Wikiconferences was 
released.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework 

Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html

Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification from the 
Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no discussion 
online. This is because the recent announcement of the framework, in 
conjunction with other issues, led to the community believing that the chapter 
had forsaken it.

A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted way back in March 
by the Mumbai community and they asked the Pune community to co-host it to 
which the Pune community agreed. As India now has a national chapter, we 
naturally asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more than two 
months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded saying that the community 
was invited to submit their proposal, duly modified as per the said framework, 
and resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The cavaliar treatment of 
the serious efforts put in to date by the communities and the contents of the 
Framework of Regulations were disturbing to the community.

At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory Framework as just 
another logical and reasonable document, but its language, text and subtext 
upset the community, in light of Chapter's attitude.

The first and over-riding issue was the type of language used and its 
indication of the relation between chapter and communities. We all know that 
the Wikimedia Foundation encourages national chapters so that the community and 
creation of knowledge by them is facilitated. However, the language herein 
clearly gives a message - that the Indian chapter is boss and all Indian 
wikimedian communities are subservient to it. 

While that is a great inequity in itself, the community was also aggrieved that 
the framework has been foisted on them without discussion, without any attempt 
to get them to participate and buy in into the plan, without community 
consensus and without any consideration of the community's interests. This 
feudalistic attitude is considered to be an anachronism in volunteer driven 
communities of the 21st Centuries especially in India. So, no matter whether 
the framework is good or bad, sensible or not, the approach to the community 
taken by the chapter is to be firmly objected to and resisted.

The Mumbai & Pune community supports the chapter, and have defended the chapter 
on number of occasions in email discussions. Members of the two communities 
have enthusiastically joined the chapter once membership opened. A member of 
the Mumbai and a member of the Pune community are the first two members to join 
by NEFT and physical cheque. To the best of my knowledge 24 members from Pune 
joined the chapter in response to Arjuna Rao Chavala's appeal for member ships 
when he came last month to our Pune meetup.  

We earnestly believe that India needs an active, sympathetic, facilitative and 
supportive chapter. We look forward to heartily cooperating with such a chapter 
- alas, the chapter's latest tune was nothing of that kind. It seemed to be 
indicative of wanting power and to dominate.

The third issue, were the "black" provisions of the framework. Each of the 
sentences seemed to imply negative connotations for the community. 
To give you some examples of the "black" provisions -

Example one - Finance
The responsibilities of the Host city team included "Fund raising", whereas the 
corresponding responsibility of the Chapter Team was "Responsible for 
facilitating financial operations and accountability for finances for the 
event".

The message conveyed was that the community was responsible for