Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws
As someone who created many of the Indian maps on wikipedia, this is a serious issue which needs a decision as it has been in the gray for quite a while. I have stopped my contribution of Indian maps ever since i realized that my work could have legal repercussions. For now, all the maps come with an explanation of the depiction of the borders and a disclaimer that it may not conform to local laws. Specimen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India_map_blank.svg This is an issue which requires someone with sound legal knowledge to solve, something for the chapter to take up. Let us not forget that we are creating a repository of knowledge, if wikipedia ever hid the truth for the sake of being politically correct, the whole project is pointless. -- j.mp/ArunGanesh ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws
The root of this problem is very similar to the Section 377 case (refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377_of_the_Indian_Penal_Code) The laws and attitudes in place regarding this case are ancient and in present circumstances, wrong. They do the country more harm than good. Going by these laws, even something as beneficial as a GPS locator that can save lives of lost travelers and disaster victims, can be deemed illegal. Hence, if we use common sense, we can conclude that these laws are in fact illegal and detrimental to India and its citizens. Maybe a more precise and updated form would be correct, but presently it's in the wrong. Just my opinion: falsified representation of areas as belonging to India when they're not really in Indian control, can be interpreted as lying to the people and grand treason. I would see it as equivalent to lying about the country's GDP or poverty figures just to pretend being in the clear. If we cannot accept one then why accept the other? If Indians were shown the reality, we might just empower the coming generation to do something about it and they might actually live to see these areas return back to Indian control one day. By consistently being ignorant of it for decades, the previous generation has lost that opportunity. So I think the answer is easy and simple - it will be implementation that I guess can be a little humbling. I think the best message that Indian wikipedians can give right now is passive non-co-operation : remove all the maps of our country from Wikipedia that come under question and make it known to all that we will rather go map-less than lie to our fellow citizens or to the world. Cheers, Nikhil Sheth +91-966-583-1250 Pune, India Teach For India http://www.teachforindia.org/ Fellow, 2011-13 www.nikhilsheth.tk Find me on: Twitter http://twitter.com/nikhiljs | Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/nikjs| LinkedIn http://in.linkedin.com/in/nikhiljs | Google http://www.google.com/profiles/nikhil.js| RangDehttp://www.rangde.org/investor/nikhilsheth Join me on: Pune Documentary Clubhttp://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=138497769525636| Let's Do it Pune http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lets-do-it-Pune/103857326346659 | Toastmasters in Punehttp://www.facebook.com/pages/Toastmasters-in-Pune/148767611833746| Wikipedia For Schools projecthttp://education.wikia.com/wiki/Wikipedia_For_Schools_Offline_Edition On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Gautam John gau...@prathambooks.orgwrote: This isn't an easy question to answer: There is the National Map Policy and the Guidelines: http://www.surveyofindia.gov.in/tenders/National Map Policy.htm Which states: Export of all maps/digital data in 1: 250K and larger scales through any means is prohibited vide Ministry of Finance (Department of Revenue) Notification No. 118-Cus./F.No.21/ 5/62-Cus. I/VIII dt. 4th May 1963. Digital Topograhical data will be licensed to only Indian individuals, organisations, firms or companies. However, I do not know if this means maps/digital data built upon SoI maps or *any* maps so created or what the definition of export it. My reading, OSM/Google Map Creator et. al. might violate this where the resolution is 1: 250K and larger. If I understand correctly, most maps on Wikipedia about India should be okay. Or where the map is created outside of India. And this is problem number 1. Then there is this: In addition, the SOI is currently preparing City Maps. These City Maps will be on large scales in WGS-84 datum and in public domain. The contents of such maps will be decided by the SOI in consultation with Ministry of Defence. No idea what they mean by public domain and this is problem 2. http://www.surveyofindia.gov.in/instructions.html#LEGAL Which is just rather difficult to parse. AFAIK, it is illegal to *show* a map, in India, that does not conform to the SoI principles. One option - show more than one map, which is purely a risk mitigation exercise. Or, show one map to those coming from Indian IPs - I don't even know if this is possible. Third, lobby for a change of rules which is unlikely in the short term. More when I learn something new. Thank you. Best, Gautam http://social.prathambooks.org/ ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws
Hi Arun, I agree that this is a very serious issue. We should contact the foundation's legal counsel for suitable action as the foundation typically handles content-issues, particularly ones that involve a question of legality. Chapters shouldn't be mistaken as being responsible for the content on wikipedia (you'd know this already, but writing this in general). - Sundar That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted. - George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture From: Arun Ganesh arun.plane...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia India list wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 2:57:13 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws As someone who created many of the Indian maps on wikipedia, this is a serious issue which needs a decision as it has been in the gray for quite a while. I have stopped my contribution of Indian maps ever since i realized that my work could have legal repercussions. For now, all the maps come with an explanation of the depiction of the borders and a disclaimer that it may not conform to local laws. Specimen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India_map_blank.svg This is an issue which requires someone with sound legal knowledge to solve, something for the chapter to take up. Let us not forget that we are creating a repository of knowledge, if wikipedia ever hid the truth for the sake of being politically correct, the whole project is pointless. -- j.mp/ArunGanesh ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws
I believe there are two separate issues here: 1. Should Wikipedia have maps or any content that is not liked by Govt. of X country or the people of Y country? 2. Should individual Indian Wikipedians or the WM India chapter be held responsible for any content on Wikipedia? The first one is straightforward ... to preserve WP:N, wikipedia should NOT cater to the viewpoints of any particular govt. (Note that, the maps in question actually are WP:N in the sense that they show the status quo as well as the territorial claims of different nations.) The second question is complex, and perhaps WM India officials should clarify this in media as well as with govt ... the chapter and Wikipedia are separate, and the chapter does not dictate nor is responsible for any wikipedia content. I believe that German wikipedia has a similar issue regarding the display of some nazi symbols (which is illegal in Germany). It may be useful to see what they did to handle this. Finally, forcing Wikipedia to conform to a particular Govt. or national viewpoint just because the foundation has an office in that country, is an affront to Wikipedia's core principle: WP:N. Ragib On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:56 AM, BalaSundaraRaman sundarbe...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Arun, I agree that this is a very serious issue. We should contact the foundation's legal counsel for suitable action as the foundation typically handles content-issues, particularly ones that involve a question of legality. Chapters shouldn't be mistaken as being responsible for the content on wikipedia (you'd know this already, but writing this in general). - Sundar That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted. - George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture From: Arun Ganesh arun.plane...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia India list wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 2:57:13 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws As someone who created many of the Indian maps on wikipedia, this is a serious issue which needs a decision as it has been in the gray for quite a while. I have stopped my contribution of Indian maps ever since i realized that my work could have legal repercussions. For now, all the maps come with an explanation of the depiction of the borders and a disclaimer that it may not conform to local laws. Specimen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India_map_blank.svg This is an issue which requires someone with sound legal knowledge to solve, something for the chapter to take up. Let us not forget that we are creating a repository of knowledge, if wikipedia ever hid the truth for the sake of being politically correct, the whole project is pointless. -- j.mp/ArunGanesh ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Gautam John gau...@prathambooks.org wrote: On 15 February 2011 23:57, Ragib Hasan ragibha...@gmail.com wrote: responsible for any wikipedia content. I believe that German wikipedia has a similar issue regarding the display of some nazi symbols (which is illegal in Germany). It may be useful to see what they did to handle this. Indeed. Thanks for this pointer, Ragib. Would you know of other such instances please? Thank you. Best, Gautam I'm not sure, but I assume the Turkish wiki should have similar issues related to the Armenian genocide? Note though that the two examples are slightly different from this thread's issue. Each of these were regional language wikipedias catering to the specific country. -- Ragib ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws
Hi, A simpler technical solution will be to show the map that is correct in the India context for all the IP addresses originating from India and for all other IPs, the current one ( I think that is the one recognised by UN) This should give a right solution to all the users. Additionally, on all the pages where India map is presented, entries for both the maps should be given mentioning the context and the disputes. -Sudhanwa On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Bala Jeyaraman sodabot...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, There is a discussion going on at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:India#Map about compliance to indian laws about representation of India in maps. According to Indian law it is illegal to show a map that differs from the official map (which includes, Pakistan controlled Kashmir and the Aksai Chin). An editor has raised the concern that using the current map (which shows only areas administered and not areas claimed) is exposing Indian editors to legal liabilities and prosecution. Since the Indian govt has successfully forced organisations like Google and National geographic to show the official map previously and now the foundation has plans for an India office, shouldn't this issue be considered seriously? Should we contacting the foundation legal office about this? regards Bala ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~! www.projects4students.com ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India map and indian laws
I think that such a measure would only complicate matters, and would present the wrong information to the Indian user. Swaroop G Rao On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 19:02, Sudhanwa Jogalekar sudhanwa@gmail.comwrote: Hi, A simpler technical solution will be to show the map that is correct in the India context for all the IP addresses originating from India and for all other IPs, the current one ( I think that is the one recognised by UN) This should give a right solution to all the users. Additionally, on all the pages where India map is presented, entries for both the maps should be given mentioning the context and the disputes. -Sudhanwa On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Bala Jeyaraman sodabot...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, There is a discussion going on at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:India#Map about compliance to indian laws about representation of India in maps. According to Indian law it is illegal to show a map that differs from the official map (which includes, Pakistan controlled Kashmir and the Aksai Chin). An editor has raised the concern that using the current map (which shows only areas administered and not areas claimed) is exposing Indian editors to legal liabilities and prosecution. Since the Indian govt has successfully forced organisations like Google and National geographic to show the official map previously and now the foundation has plans for an India office, shouldn't this issue be considered seriously? Should we contacting the foundation legal office about this? regards Bala ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~! www.projects4students.com ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
