Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Stas Malyshev  wrote:
> Hi!
>
>> If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
>> we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
>> offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)
>>
>> http://bigbluebutton.org/
>
> I've checked their demo and it uses Flash. Which is very iffy from
> security standpoint, may lead to various issues on platforms that don't
> support it or where support is sketchy and is not a good idea in general
> long-term since Flash is on its way out as a technology.
>
> While I'm all for supporting open-source, both by using it and
> contributing to it, in this particular case it doesn't look like viable
> solution to me.

The demo has a html5 client, and the demo asks me whether I want to
use Flash or HTML5.

-- 
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Stas Malyshev]

Hi!

> If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
> we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
> offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)
> 
> http://bigbluebutton.org/

I've checked their demo and it uses Flash. Which is very iffy from
security standpoint, may lead to various issues on platforms that don't
support it or where support is sketchy and is not a good idea in general
long-term since Flash is on its way out as a technology.

While I'm all for supporting open-source, both by using it and
contributing to it, in this particular case it doesn't look like viable
solution to me.

-- 
Stas Malyshev
smalys...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Erik Bernhardson]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 9:00 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:21 AM, Brion Vibber 
> wrote:
> > BlueJeans is "open source" though I can't offhand find their source code
> by
> > googling for "bluejeans source". ;)
>
> I've dug around a bit, and also cant find anything to suggest that
> they are open sourcing any parts of their solution, or anything
> resembling bjn providing development or support for existing open
> source technology components.
>
> Their own java classes are using namespace "vc.bjn", and googing that
> doesnt lead to anything.
>
> Here is their recent github organisation:
>
> https://github.com/BlueJeansNetwork
>
> This looks like an older one:
>
> https://github.com/bluejeansnet
>
> And here is the only use of "vc.bjn" in github, by an employee
>
> https://github.com/Aldaviva/tailor
>
> Other employees have "operations"-like repos
>
> https://github.com/sczizzo
>
> If the organisation is a credible contributor to open source, I havent
> found it yet.  I hope that WMF included "open sourciness" in their
> product selection criteria & evaluation, so their should be some
> document describing how BJN is contributing to open source.  It would
> be great if that can be shared.
>
> > It's being used mostly for larger meetings because a) it has a larger
> limit
> > for number of participants than Google Hangout and b) it seems to be more
> > open than Google Hangout.
> >...
> > Can't answer on if anybody's paying anything as I don't know, but
> > personally I would hope we are helping to fund their open source
> > development. ;)
>
> If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
> we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
> offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)
>
> http://bigbluebutton.org/
>
> From the FAQ: If you have a session with 20 users and all share their
webcam (yes, this is possible) will generate 400 streams

Pretty much sounds like a deal breaker to me. The primary use case of
bluejeans is for meetings where we need a hundred people in the same
channel. The difference with bluejeans is it manages the streams on the
backend and sends just one video stream to each user (afaik).


> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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[Wikitech-l] Fwd: [opensource-107] Seattle to host the 2016 OpenStreetMap State of the Map US Conference

[Pine W]

(Cross-posting)

For Wikimedia folks who are interested in possible collaborations with OSM,
now seems like a good time to start thinking about possible presentations.

Staff from the Wikimedia Foundation, and/or Wikimedia volunteers from
around the US outside of the Seattle area, may want to start thinking about
travel plans.

For Wikimedia volunteers outside of Cascadia Wikimedians territory, you
might consider applying for WMF Travel and Participation Support grants [1].

If you're inside of Cascadia Wikimedians territory and would like to attend
the conference, we may have funds in our budget that can support your
attendance. Contact me off-list for details.

Regards,

Pine

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:TPS


-- Forwarded message --
From: Clifford Snow 
Date: Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:18 PM
Subject: [opensource-107] Seattle to host the 2016 OpenStreetMap State of
the Map US Conference
To: opensource-107-annou...@meetup.com


I am excited to announce that Seattle was chosen to host the OpenStreetMap
2016 State of the Map US Conference. The conference will take place July
23-25 on SeattleU's campus. We chose SeattleU for their low cost, proximity
to Seattle and access to public transit.  The food trucks near by didn't
hurt either.


We are looking for help! Let us know if you want to help. Request for
presentation proposals should be coming fairly soon. Start thinking about
what you want to present or teach.

The formal announcement can be found at:
https://openstreetmap.us/2016/02/sotmus-2016/

Clifford
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:21 AM, Brion Vibber  wrote:
> BlueJeans is "open source" though I can't offhand find their source code by
> googling for "bluejeans source". ;)

I've dug around a bit, and also cant find anything to suggest that
they are open sourcing any parts of their solution, or anything
resembling bjn providing development or support for existing open
source technology components.

Their own java classes are using namespace "vc.bjn", and googing that
doesnt lead to anything.

Here is their recent github organisation:

https://github.com/BlueJeansNetwork

This looks like an older one:

https://github.com/bluejeansnet

And here is the only use of "vc.bjn" in github, by an employee

https://github.com/Aldaviva/tailor

Other employees have "operations"-like repos

https://github.com/sczizzo

If the organisation is a credible contributor to open source, I havent
found it yet.  I hope that WMF included "open sourciness" in their
product selection criteria & evaluation, so their should be some
document describing how BJN is contributing to open source.  It would
be great if that can be shared.

> It's being used mostly for larger meetings because a) it has a larger limit
> for number of participants than Google Hangout and b) it seems to be more
> open than Google Hangout.
>...
> Can't answer on if anybody's paying anything as I don't know, but
> personally I would hope we are helping to fund their open source
> development. ;)

If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)

http://bigbluebutton.org/

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikitech-l] RfC: Notifications in core

[Isarra Yos]

Ye.

On 01/03/16 21:41, Legoktm wrote:

Hi,

I've written an RfC about moving most of the Echo extension code into
MediaWiki core:
.

RobLa has written a summary of it on the Phab task:
.

Feedback is appreciated. :)

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Analytics] Please provide feedback on suggested improvements to the Code of Conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

See discussion at 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#Seems_to_be_a_lot_of_unanswered_questions_and_gray_areas 
.


Matt

On 02/23/2016 09:37 PM, regu...@gmail.com wrote:

I notice you mention in a lot of places that people should contact an
administrator. What if the person they are complaining about is an
admin? Because I have seen admins violate several of these rules of
conduct and it's rare for anything to be donecabout it.


Reguyla


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device


-- Original message--

*From: *Matthew Flaschen

*Date: *Tue, Feb 23, 2016 8:45 PM

*To: *Wikitech List;Engineering List;Design List;Wiki Research
List;Analytics Public List;hackathonorganiz...@lists.wikimedia.org
;

*Subject:*[Analytics] Please provide feedback on suggested improvements
to the Code of Conduct


Thanks to everyone who’s helped work on the Code of Conduct sofar.Pe  ople have brought up issues 
they feel were missed when working on "Unacceptable behavior" 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Draft#Unacceptable_behavior  ) and "Report a problem" 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Draft#Report_a_problem  ).   Consultants have also suggested changes in 
these samesections.Th  ese are important sections, so please take a look at the proposed 
changes (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#Suggested_changes).I apologize that this feedback 
arrived later than planned, but I think this will create a better document.If you prefer to give your opinion privately, 
feedback via e-mail is welcome at  conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org.Thanks  ,Matt Flaschen___Analytics 
mailing  listAnalytics@lists.wikimedia.orghtt  
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Brion Vibber]

Yep, all Linux-compatible large-group video conferencing options known are
known to be bad in different ways.

-- brion

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Strainu  wrote:

> 2016-03-01 23:55 GMT+02:00 Brad Jorsch (Anomie) :
> > On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Brion Vibber 
> wrote:
> >
> >> When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
> >> connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to
> enable
> >> or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.
> >>
> >
> > Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you
> have
> > to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.
>
> Secure or not, why do I have to download and extract an archive,
> instead of using the browser's addon system? I don't know about price
> or freedom (can't find the source code either) but as far as ease of
> use is concerned, it lags way behind Hangouts.
> >
> >  [1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed
> from
> > Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
> > installed from Debian.
>
> Yeah, no luck on opensuse either.
>
> Strainu
>
> >  [2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
> > actually get any audio or video.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> > Senior Software Engineer
> > Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Strainu]

2016-03-01 23:55 GMT+02:00 Brad Jorsch (Anomie) :
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Brion Vibber  wrote:
>
>> When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
>> connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to enable
>> or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you have
> to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.

Secure or not, why do I have to download and extract an archive,
instead of using the browser's addon system? I don't know about price
or freedom (can't find the source code either) but as far as ease of
use is concerned, it lags way behind Hangouts.
>
>  [1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed from
> Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
> installed from Debian.

Yeah, no luck on opensuse either.

Strainu

>  [2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
> actually get any audio or video.
>
>
> --
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> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Jeremy Baron]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Brion Vibber  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Jeremy Baron  wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Brion Vibber 
>> wrote:
>> > Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
>> > 'computer' and before selecting 'join'.
>>
>> right, I saw those.
>>
>> the problem is that if you have Chrome set to disallow websites from
>> using your Mic/Camera then you can't get that far. it just gets stuck
>> at requiring you to allow access.

(to clarify, I was using the service as a guest, I don't have an account.)

I'm happy to help with more STR if needed.

> Heh ok that would be something to report upstream yes. :)

:)

so, do I open my own support ticket? I guess I'll wait a bit to see if
someone knows whether or not we have a relationship with them and they
want to file for me? (best guess would be OIT?)

> Not relevant to a lot of folks doing straightforward video conferencing so
> that's probably why it's not already working,

sure, I don't know much about them, I just heard of the service for
the first time today. I think.

> but probably relevant to our
> usage for presentations with large audiences.

yeah, that was my point.

we have audiences that have more than average concerns about privacy. but also
* we shouldn't make it hard for people to enforce least privilege (and
we shouldn't be getting people into the habit of clicking allow
unnecessarily): don't allow access to camera if you're not going to
use the camera. and
* some people may want to watch a presentation in their pajamas, etc. :)

> (When there's a YouTube live
> stream that's at least watchable on most browsers, but then you can't
> participate in the direct chat.)

yeah.

actually, if we do have a relationship with them then I wonder if this
is available for others to use too? I know some other Wikimedia
meetings where this was an issue. at first glance, doesn't look like
they publish prices or offer a free tier; they say that the free trial
lasts 14 days.

I did some searching and found projects related to bluejeans and they
offer various auxiliary software packages (e.g. browser plugins and
the relay) for download directly from the bluejeans site. but no sign
of source or license (or even statement that they are proprietary).
maybe someone else lurking has the answer?

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
 wrote:
> Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you have
> to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.
>
>  [1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed from
> Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
> installed from Debian.
>  [2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
> actually get any audio or video.

ugh, another maybe blocker.

(I was using Google branded Chrome so didn't run into any of that yet)

-Jeremy

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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Brion Vibber  wrote:

> When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
> connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to enable
> or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.
>

Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you have
to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.

 [1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed from
Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
installed from Debian.
 [2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
actually get any audio or video.


-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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[Wikitech-l] RfC: Notifications in core

[Legoktm]

Hi,

I've written an RfC about moving most of the Echo extension code into
MediaWiki core:
.

RobLa has written a summary of it on the Phab task:
.

Feedback is appreciated. :)

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Brion Vibber]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Jeremy Baron  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Brion Vibber 
> wrote:
> > Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
> > 'computer' and before selecting 'join'.
>
> right, I saw those.
>
> the problem is that if you have Chrome set to disallow websites from
> using your Mic/Camera then you can't get that far. it just gets stuck
> at requiring you to allow access.
>

Heh ok that would be something to report upstream yes. :)

Not relevant to a lot of folks doing straightforward video conferencing so
that's probably why it's not already working, but probably relevant to our
usage for presentations with large audiences. (When there's a YouTube live
stream that's at least watchable on most browsers, but then you can't
participate in the direct chat.)

-- brion
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Jeremy Baron]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Brion Vibber  wrote:
> Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
> 'computer' and before selecting 'join'.

right, I saw those.

the problem is that if you have Chrome set to disallow websites from
using your Mic/Camera then you can't get that far. it just gets stuck
at requiring you to allow access.

-Jeremy

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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Brion Vibber]

Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
'computer' and before selecting 'join'.

-- brion

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Jeremy Baron  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Ryan Lane  wrote:
> > The right question here is: is it more important for Wikimedia foundation
> > to use only open source than it is to focus on work that directly
> benefits
> > the movement? There's no reasonable open source to do this function. The
> > ones that exist are terrible, are less efficient, and have to have
> hardware
> > dedicated to them. In either case it's going to cost money to handle
> this,
> > the question is, should it also cost engineering time?
> >
> > Idealism comes at a pretty high cost. The foundation in the past has
> made a
> > pretty reasonable choice in the past in that they're willing to use
> > proprietary software for functions that aren't directly associated with
> the
> > projects. The decision is often focused on "if the community wanted to
> fork
> > the projects, would this proprietary software we're using be a problem?".
> > In this case the answer would be no.
>
> the old default (AFAIK) was Google Hangouts. which I guess is just as
> closed source but maybe is less cost? note that I'm not saying that
> sub-optimal cost or source availability or hosting options are
> necessarily a reason to not use bluejeans. but I would at least like
> to be aware of the answers to those questions.
>
> OTOH, IMO, the (apparent) inability to use this service with stock
> Chrome (on a chromebook, stable channel) without sharing my
> webcam/microphone is a blocker. (which maybe we can get them to fix)
>
> I suppose the service may work ok with a Chrome instance that itself
> doesn't have access to the webcam/microphone hardware. But that's not
> good enough. again, IMO.
>
> -Jeremy
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Jeremy Baron]

Hi,

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Ryan Lane  wrote:
> The right question here is: is it more important for Wikimedia foundation
> to use only open source than it is to focus on work that directly benefits
> the movement? There's no reasonable open source to do this function. The
> ones that exist are terrible, are less efficient, and have to have hardware
> dedicated to them. In either case it's going to cost money to handle this,
> the question is, should it also cost engineering time?
>
> Idealism comes at a pretty high cost. The foundation in the past has made a
> pretty reasonable choice in the past in that they're willing to use
> proprietary software for functions that aren't directly associated with the
> projects. The decision is often focused on "if the community wanted to fork
> the projects, would this proprietary software we're using be a problem?".
> In this case the answer would be no.

the old default (AFAIK) was Google Hangouts. which I guess is just as
closed source but maybe is less cost? note that I'm not saying that
sub-optimal cost or source availability or hosting options are
necessarily a reason to not use bluejeans. but I would at least like
to be aware of the answers to those questions.

OTOH, IMO, the (apparent) inability to use this service with stock
Chrome (on a chromebook, stable channel) without sharing my
webcam/microphone is a blocker. (which maybe we can get them to fix)

I suppose the service may work ok with a Chrome instance that itself
doesn't have access to the webcam/microphone hardware. But that's not
good enough. again, IMO.

-Jeremy

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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Brion Vibber]

BlueJeans is "open source" though I can't offhand find their source code by
googling for "bluejeans source". ;)

It's being used mostly for larger meetings because a) it has a larger limit
for number of participants than Google Hangout and b) it seems to be more
open than Google Hangout.

When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to enable
or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.

Can't answer on if anybody's paying anything as I don't know, but
personally I would hope we are helping to fund their open source
development. ;)

-- brion


On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Jeremy Baron  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 3:36 PM, David Strine 
> wrote:
> > We will be holding this brownbag in 25 minutes. The Bluejeans link has
> > changed:
> >
> >  https://bluejeans.com/396234560
>
> I'm not familiar with bluejeans and maybe have missed a transition
> because I wasn't paying enough attention. is this some kind of
> experiment? have all meetings transitioned to this service?
>
> anyway, my immediate question at the moment is how do you join without
> sharing your microphone and camera?
>
> am I correct thinking that this is an entirely proprietary stack
> that's neither gratis nor libre and has no on-premise (not cloud)
> hosting option? are we paying for this?
>
> -Jeremy
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Ryan Lane]

The right question here is: is it more important for Wikimedia foundation
to use only open source than it is to focus on work that directly benefits
the movement? There's no reasonable open source to do this function. The
ones that exist are terrible, are less efficient, and have to have hardware
dedicated to them. In either case it's going to cost money to handle this,
the question is, should it also cost engineering time?

Idealism comes at a pretty high cost. The foundation in the past has made a
pretty reasonable choice in the past in that they're willing to use
proprietary software for functions that aren't directly associated with the
projects. The decision is often focused on "if the community wanted to fork
the projects, would this proprietary software we're using be a problem?".
In this case the answer would be no.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Jeremy Baron  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 3:36 PM, David Strine 
> wrote:
> > We will be holding this brownbag in 25 minutes. The Bluejeans link has
> > changed:
> >
> >  https://bluejeans.com/396234560
>
> I'm not familiar with bluejeans and maybe have missed a transition
> because I wasn't paying enough attention. is this some kind of
> experiment? have all meetings transitioned to this service?
>
> anyway, my immediate question at the moment is how do you join without
> sharing your microphone and camera?
>
> am I correct thinking that this is an entirely proprietary stack
> that's neither gratis nor libre and has no on-premise (not cloud)
> hosting option? are we paying for this?
>
> -Jeremy
>
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[Wikitech-l] bluejeans

[Jeremy Baron]

Hi,

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 3:36 PM, David Strine  wrote:
> We will be holding this brownbag in 25 minutes. The Bluejeans link has
> changed:
>
>  https://bluejeans.com/396234560

I'm not familiar with bluejeans and maybe have missed a transition
because I wasn't paying enough attention. is this some kind of
experiment? have all meetings transitioned to this service?

anyway, my immediate question at the moment is how do you join without
sharing your microphone and camera?

am I correct thinking that this is an entirely proprietary stack
that's neither gratis nor libre and has no on-premise (not cloud)
hosting option? are we paying for this?

-Jeremy

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Brownbag: Exiting New Improvements to Phabricator

[David Strine]

We will be holding this brownbag in 25 minutes. The Bluejeans link has
changed:

 https://bluejeans.com/396234560



On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:10 PM, David Strine  wrote:

> This is a reminder. The brownbag is still on for tomorrow, March 1st at
> 1pm PST.
>
> We will be using the #wikimedia-office chat in IRC
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:13 AM, David Strine 
> wrote:
>
>> There will be a brown bag Tuesday, March 1st at 1pm Pacific time. We will
>> review some new changes to Phabricator. Many of these changes will be
>> relevant specifically to advanced users.
>>
>>
>> We will review:
>>
>>- where Phabricator administration conversations are happening
>>- the custom forms feature
>>- the updates to projects, sub-projects and milestones
>>- other smaller changes
>>
>> We should have plenty of time for Q
>>
>>
>> Blue jeans link [1]
>>
>> The Blue Jeans video will be recorded. The recording and slide deck will
>> be posted to the Phabricator mediawiki pages [2].
>>
>> [1]
>> https://bluejeans.com/105994346
>>
>> [2]
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Phabricator
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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[Wikitech-l] dataset1001 (dumps.wikimedia.org) maintenance window March 2 1-4pm UTC

[Ariel Glenn WMF]

Dataset1001, the host which serves dumps and other datasets to the public,
as well as providing access to various datasets directly on stats100x, will
be unavailable tomorrow for an upgrade to jessie.  While I don't expect to
need nearly 3 hours for the upgrade, better safe than sorry. In the
meantime all files will be accessible via ms1001.wikimedia.org via the web,
and all dumps and page view files from our mirrors as well.

Thanks for your understanding.

Ariel Glenn
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Re: [Wikitech-l] ArchCom RFC triage on Wednesday 2016-03-02?

[Marko Obrovac]

Hello,


On 27 February 2016 at 01:00, Rob Lanphier  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> An ArchCom RFC triage (per
> ) was penciled in for this
> past RFC meeting (), but I was
> out for jury duty and wasn't able to make the push for this or
> facilitate it if we stuck with my hasty plan. I'm done now, and would
> be happy to accommodate assuming everyone is available and up for
> helping out with a triage for this coming meeting on Wednesday
> 2016-03-02 ()
>

Triaging is a great idea, Rob! I know this is only the beginning of this
new "modus operandi" for both the ArchCom and RfC's, but I'd suggest to
make triaging an integral part of each ArchCom meeting (I'm guessing that
it wouldn't take more than 5 minutes given the weekly meeting schedule) in
order to avoid falling behind.


>
> The point of the triage would be to try to ensure that more RFCs have
> assigned shepherds on ArchCom.  That, in turn, would hopefully make it
> more likely for an RFC to make it through the process more quickly.
> Instead of having to ask all of ArchCom status about a particular RFC,
> there would be a single ArchCom owner to check in with.
>

+1! This should greatly simplify the workflow not only for RfC authors, but
interested parties as well.


>
> Any RFC that doesn't have a shepherd is not likely to move through the
> process.  There are always going to be several RFCs that don't have
> shepherds.  Just submitting an RFC doesn't guarantee that an ArchCom
> member will think your RFC is important.  Life is hard that way.  Make
> your case!
>

Sometimes the inability of the ArchCom to assign a shepherd might be due to
the unclear "category" the RfC belongs to: is it WM-centric or MW-centric,
does it encompass only FE changes or BE changes as well, compatibility with
previous solutions, etc. So perhaps RfC authors could be encouraged to
attach certain (predefined?) labels to their documents to make the triage
easier?


>
> Note also: shepherd != slave.  Even when an RFC has a shepherd,
> there's no guarantee that the RFC is a high priority for the shepherd.
> Certainly, the shepherd's credibility as a worthy ArchCom member is
> potentially damaged by foot dragging, but don't bank on being able to
> dump blame on the shepherd if your RFC isn't going fast enough for
> your taste.
>

I may be off here, but my understanding of the shepherd's role is to work
*together* with the RfC author in order to secure the necessary buy-in from
various parties. In that sense, I think it's important to make it clear to
the respective authors that should progress be stalled, they're supposed to
"share the blame" with the shepherd :)


>
> Thoughts?
>

Not a thought, but more of a question. Would it make sense to limit the
number of RfC's an ArchCom member may be the shepherd of? After all,
ArchCom members do have other obligations, so having a large backlog per
person might send the wrong signal that things are moving along when they
are in fact not.

Cheers,
Marko


>
> Rob
>
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-- 
Marko Obrovac, PhD
Senior Services Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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