Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel

[Andre Klapper]

On Fri, 2017-11-24 at 12:13 +0100, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> Does it have already SUL support?

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse
mentions SUL as something to sort out.

andre
-- 
Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel

[Quim Gil]

Hi Mathieu,

This pilot doesn't have Wikimedia SUL as a requirement, but a move to
production would. For a discussion about Discourse and single sign-on, see
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T124691

The content license would be the same as MediaWiki.org, unless someone has
a better suggestion: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 12:19 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:

>
>
> Le 19/11/2017 à 04:33, Brian Wolff a écrit :
>
>> Neither project:support_desk nor project:current_issues is really meant
>> for
>> that purpose - support desk is mainly for user and (external) sysadmin
>> support. And current_issues is the village pump of mediawiki.org (the
>> website not the software)
>>
>> Honestly, I kind of think that lqt was better than flow for support desk.
>> As much as lqt sucked at least search sort of worked.
>>
>> Although the bigger problem probably is that project:support desk is
>> protected so new users arent allowed to ask questions(!)
>>
>> On the subject of search, i do think that
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/robots.txt is rediculous. At least for
>> technical lists we should let google in, and the privacy concern is silly
>> as there are mirrors that are indexed.
>>
> The foundation is not responsible for, possibly illegal, behaviour of
> external parties. It's not silly to disallow copyrighted content on Commons
> just because you can find them on popular website which publish them
> illegaly.
>
>
>
>> --
>> bawolff
>>
>> On Saturday, November 18, 2017, Sam Wilson  wrote:
>>
>>> Hear hear to being able to properly search past conversations.
>>>
>>> I know it's not the fashionably geek thing to say, but I must admit that
>>> I always find mailing lists to be incredibly annoying, compared to
>>> forums. Not only is searching completely separate from reading, even
>>> browsing old topics is another interface again (assuming one hasn't been
>>> subscribed forever and kept every old message). Then, when you do manage
>>> to find an old message, there's no way to reply to it (short of copying
>>> and pasting and losing context).
>>>
>>> Maybe https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk (and its
>>> sibling https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Current_issues ?) is the
>>> best place to ask questions about the software, its development, and
>>> other things. If so, let's make that fact much more well advertised!
>>> (Although, I think Flow is brilliant, when it's for discussing a wiki
>>> page — because the topic is already set (effectively by the title of the
>>> page its attached to). When it's trying to be a host to multiple
>>> unrelated topics, it becomes pretty annoying to use.)
>>>
>>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, at 05:57 AM, Niharika Kohli wrote:
>>>
 I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
 channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout
 on
 the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
 of
 repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.

 Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
 mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
 about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
 https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
 ,
 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
 ,
 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...

 I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or
 mailing
 lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum
 for
 support.

 On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil  wrote:

 Hi, I have expanded
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
> seek_developer_support
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only
> channel
> whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining
>
 are
>>
>>> the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
> there. First we need to run a successful pilot.
>
> The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for
>
 something
>>
>>> else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers,
>
 they
>>
>>> will continue doing whatever they do now.
>
> I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.
>>
> For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
> question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
> improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki
>
 Talk
>>
>>> pages, mailing lists and IRC channels 

Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel

[mathieu stumpf guntz]

Le 19/11/2017 à 04:33, Brian Wolff a écrit :

Neither project:support_desk nor project:current_issues is really meant for
that purpose - support desk is mainly for user and (external) sysadmin
support. And current_issues is the village pump of mediawiki.org (the
website not the software)

Honestly, I kind of think that lqt was better than flow for support desk.
As much as lqt sucked at least search sort of worked.

Although the bigger problem probably is that project:support desk is
protected so new users arent allowed to ask questions(!)

On the subject of search, i do think that
https://lists.wikimedia.org/robots.txt is rediculous. At least for
technical lists we should let google in, and the privacy concern is silly
as there are mirrors that are indexed.
The foundation is not responsible for, possibly illegal, behaviour of 
external parties. It's not silly to disallow copyrighted content on 
Commons just because you can find them on popular website which publish 
them illegaly.




--
bawolff

On Saturday, November 18, 2017, Sam Wilson  wrote:

Hear hear to being able to properly search past conversations.

I know it's not the fashionably geek thing to say, but I must admit that
I always find mailing lists to be incredibly annoying, compared to
forums. Not only is searching completely separate from reading, even
browsing old topics is another interface again (assuming one hasn't been
subscribed forever and kept every old message). Then, when you do manage
to find an old message, there's no way to reply to it (short of copying
and pasting and losing context).

Maybe https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk (and its
sibling https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Current_issues ?) is the
best place to ask questions about the software, its development, and
other things. If so, let's make that fact much more well advertised!
(Although, I think Flow is brilliant, when it's for discussing a wiki
page — because the topic is already set (effectively by the title of the
page its attached to). When it's trying to be a host to multiple
unrelated topics, it becomes pretty annoying to use.)

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, at 05:57 AM, Niharika Kohli wrote:

I'd like to add that having Discourse will provide the one thing IRC
channels and mailing lists fail to - search capabilities. If you hangout
on
the #mediawiki IRC channel, you have probably noticed that we get a lot
of
repeat questions all the time. This would save everyone time and effort.

Not to mention ease of use. Discourse is way more usable than IRC or
mailing lists. Usability is the main reason there are so many questions
about MediaWiki asked on Stackoverflow instead:
https://stackoverflow.com/unanswered/tagged/mediawiki
,
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-api?sort=newest
,
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/mediawiki-extensions...

I'd personally hope we can stop asking developers to go to IRC or mailing
lists eventually and use Discourse/something else as a discussion forum
for
support.

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Quim Gil  wrote:


Hi, I have expanded
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#One_place_to_
seek_developer_support

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk is the only channel
whose main purpose is to provide support. The volunteers maintaining

are

the ones to decide about its future. There is no rush for any decisions
there. First we need to run a successful pilot.

The rest of channels (like this mailing list) were created for

something

else. If these channels stop receiving questions from new developers,

they

will continue doing whatever they do now.


I'd like to understand how adding a venue will improve matters.

For new developers arriving to our shores, being able to ask a first
question about any topic in one place with a familiar UI is a big
improvement over having to figure out a disseminated landscape of wiki

Talk

pages, mailing lists and IRC channels (especially if they are not used

to

any of these environments). The reason to propose this new space is

them,

not us.

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:01 PM, MZMcBride  wrote:


Brian Wolff wrote:

On Friday, November 17, 2017, Quim Gil  wrote:

The Technical Collaboration team proposes the creation of a

developer

support channel focusing on newcomers, as part of our Onboarding

New

Developer program. We are proposing to create a site based on

Discourse

(starting with a pilot in discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org) and to

point

the many existing scattered channels there.

What does point existing channels to discouse mean exactly? Are you
planning to shutdown any existing channels? If so, which ones?

Excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers as well.

I raised a similar point at

Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel

[mathieu stumpf guntz]

Hi again,

Will the published content under a free license? That might seems 
obvious but that is something which isn't granted with IRC or mailling 
lists.


Legislately,
mathieu


Le 19/11/2017 à 01:45, Quim Gil a écrit :

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Max Semenik  wrote:


Who's gonna maintain this installation?


The current status is explained at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#Maintenance

This is a proposal coming from the Technical Collaboration team and we have
more or less everything we need to run the pilot. The draft plan already
says that in the mid term (and before moving to production) we need to
clarify what is the involvement of the Wikimedia Cloud Services team (who
also organizes developer support activities) and Operations. These
conversations are just starting with the publication of the draft plan.



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for a developer support channel

[mathieu stumpf guntz]

Hi Quim,

Does it have already SUL support?

Quickly,
mathieu


Le 19/11/2017 à 01:45, Quim Gil a écrit :

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Max Semenik  wrote:


Who's gonna maintain this installation?


The current status is explained at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Discourse#Maintenance

This is a proposal coming from the Technical Collaboration team and we have
more or less everything we need to run the pilot. The draft plan already
says that in the mid term (and before moving to production) we need to
clarify what is the involvement of the Wikimedia Cloud Services team (who
also organizes developer support activities) and Operations. These
conversations are just starting with the publication of the draft plan.



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