RE: [WISPA] More Saturday Musings- Another (older) Truck-PC type

2007-01-01 Thread Rick Smith
Pretty sure it was no ad hoc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] More Saturday Musings- Another (older) Truck-PC type

Right, but do they have their units in ad hoc mode shouting out that essid?
I see HP setup quite abit and that is in ad hoc mode. Naturally thats an HP
printer waiting to get set up.

George

Rick Smith wrote:
 no, mikrotik in this case, doing a 'scan' on the interface...shows 
 their ssid's in their trucks...
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of George Rogato
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 5:05 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] More Saturday Musings- Another (older) Truck-PC 
 type
 
 ad hoc mode?
 
 Rick Smith wrote:
 nod, a scan on the AP shows them...

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Ralph
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 4:23 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] More Saturday Musings- Another (older) Truck-PC 
 type

 If they still operate as before, you shouldn't see them unless you 
 set your tower as a client/cpe.  I have never seen them do anything 
 with an AP, other than BE one.  Dis you know that was what the 
 SST-PR-1 was
 before?

  

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Rick Smith
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:35 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] More Saturday Musings- Another (older) Truck-PC 
 type

 yeah I can see 10 - 12 of them at any time off one of my towers.
 I'm 1/2 mile from a sears garage where they repair those vans...

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Ralph
 Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 11:11 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: [WISPA] More Saturday Musings- Another (older) Truck-PC type

 Hi Matt-

 Back in my old Net-Stumbler days (back when you could drive across 
 Atlanta and see less than 20 Access Points, and 2 were my own), the
 experimenters
 of the day became perplexed by this SSID that kept popping up at 
 random times.  It was an Access Point named SST-PR-1  The first 
 time I saw it, I was in my basement and I knew full well what I could 
 normally receive down there.

 There were all kinds of theories:  an AP on a low earth orbit 
 satellite, something on a passing vehicle, some sort of temporary 
 SSID on
 a piece of
 gear that just showed up right at bootup, etc.   Googling for SST-PR-1
 might
 actually turn up some of the old discussions about it.

 Anyway- I started seeing it a lot in the evenings after they built 
 some apartments behind me.  I sent my son over there on his bike with 
 a camera to do some investigating.  He soon found a Sears Service 
 truck (the ones with the small Globalstar dish on top like you see on 
 many semis) parked in front of an apartment.  He went back with a 
 laptop and traced the signal to this van.  So we had it figured out- 
 Sears
 truck.
 A few days later, my son saw the driver coming home for the evening 
 and the driver gave him the dog and pony show of the truck computer.
 It is linked to Sears parts database via satellite. The SST-PR-1 is 
 the SSID of an integral access point that allows the driver to use a 
 laptop from inside the customer's home to check on parts, see service 
 manuals, etc. The SST stands for Sears Smart Toolbox.

 I once told a friend about it and he set up a laptop to warn him when 
 the Sears guy entered the neighborhood on his way to fix their 
 refrigerator.  An early warning system of sorts.

 So, the big SST-PR-1 mystery was finally solved by a 12 year old kid!

 Ralph

  

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
 Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 1:16 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] TRUCKPC

 AHA

 I've been wondering where the hell that TruckPC request has been 
 coming from!!

 Occasionally, I have techs who have left the radius authentication 
 disabled on an access point and the dhcp logs will start to fill up 
 with requests from TruckPC.  They were coming from access points 
 all
 over
 the place and I was a little perplexed.   It is interesting to watch our 
 radius logs too.  I have one AP overlooking a little town of 200 
 people, but it is right next to an interstate and the radius log from 
 that AP is always showing logins.  Must be all the trucker laptops 
 whizzing by looking for an open AP.

 I've been toying with the idea of turning on hotspot functionality so 
 that we can provide transient access, and this is probably a good 
 reason to do it.

 Matt Larsen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 Ralph wrote:
 Well, JohnnyO- you might want to also educate these people, then:
 http://www.drivertech.com/

 Their product, a Truckpc is 

RE: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g

2007-01-01 Thread Rick Smith
To even take your water hose analogy, I pay for my water - one little sip
might not hurt, but everyone stopping by to take a sip, leaving the hose on,
draws down my supply and sends my bill up.

 

However you slice it or justify it in your mind, it's still morally,
ethically, and legally wrong to connect to open WiFi devices and do ANYthing
on that connection.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 12:25 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for
802.11b/g

 

I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up within a
few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless network, and get
online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the time). Its more like
walking up and getting a drink from your water hose in your yard than
JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of water from the hose or 5
minutes on your wireless router neither one significantly costs anyone. 

While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it costs the
paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of real
performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on his PC were
shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and snooped/altered/deleted
them, then it would seem that there is grounds for vandalism/business
interruption, unauthorized information access, etc, etc. 

If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several hoses
together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your window and
flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real issue, and a crime has
been committed, since it legitimately costs you real money to remedy.

If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a VOIP
call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect anyone will
complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you anything. 

If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or
cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting your IP
added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue. 

An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to establish
VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out fires with a series
of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of installing real fire
hydrants. 

As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war driving
is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the cost to the
customer) or whatever. 
Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I don't do
that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I have never even
heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war driving or grape sampling).
I suppose that if you got greedy with either one, you would get your hand
slapped. 

Pete Davis
NoDial.net. 



Rick Smith wrote: 

ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, 
and ASK your permission to use the phone.   At which point, you
COULD say NO! and shut the door on them.  Or, you could let them
in, and tell them OK! here it is!
 
BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, 
plugging a butt set in and just dialing away...
 
If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck,
walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co.
put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in
and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR
expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you.
 
What's different with WiFi ?  Nothing but the excuses we allow people
to continue to make.
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for
802.11b/g
 
The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but
there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with
my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial.
Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other
encryption key.
Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list
that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent
to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the
emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get
connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down,
because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution,
then am I gonna get sued?
If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open,
and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a
blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what?
 
I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door and try to
visit 

Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g

2007-01-01 Thread Scott Reed
Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is 
because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you are 
using what I paid for without paying.


Pete Davis wrote:
I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up 
within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless 
network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the 
time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water 
hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of 
water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one 
significantly costs anyone.


While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it costs 
the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of 
real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on 
his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and 
snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is grounds 
for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information access, 
etc, etc.


If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several 
hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your 
window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real 
issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs you 
real money to remedy.


If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a 
VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect 
anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you 
anything.


If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or 
cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting 
your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue.


An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to 
establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out 
fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of 
installing real fire hydrants.


As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war 
driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the cost 
to the customer) or whatever.
Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I 
don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I 
have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war 
driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with 
either one, you would get your hand slapped.


Pete Davis
NoDial.net.



Rick Smith wrote:
ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, 
and ASK your permission to use the phone.   At which point, you

COULD say NO! and shut the door on them.  Or, you could let them
in, and tell them OK! here it is!

BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, 
plugging a butt set in and just dialing away...


If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck,
walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co.
put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in
and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR
expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you.

What's different with WiFi ?  Nothing but the excuses we allow people
to continue to make.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for
802.11b/g

The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but
there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with
my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial.
Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other
encryption key.
Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list
that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent
to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the
emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get
connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down,
because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution,
then am I gonna get sued?
If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open,
and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a
blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what?

I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door and try to
visit with my wife, and you step on a rake that gives you a brain anurism, I
guess that makes me guilty (or not guilty) of manslaughter. I lost score in
this ballgame.

If the cops are in a pursuit in my neighborhood, and run their squad car off
the road breaking the radio, and they want to use my home phone to call the
office, I would let them. Not because I HAVE to, but 

How to secure WiFi networks was RE: [WISPA] recommendation

2007-01-01 Thread Rick Smith
With all this discussion, I've not done it in a while for
clients - is there a website somewhere that details all
the methods for A/P and CPE security ?

I remember Win XP being a royal pain in the keister when 
trying to get it to work with WEP and Linksys...

Any good guides out there ?  Perhaps WISPA's website should
hold the how-to, and we all make it a habit to secure clients
access to their own wifi networks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:06 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for
802.11b/g

Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is because I
paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you are using what I
paid for without paying.


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WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g

2007-01-01 Thread Pete Davis
Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into the 
airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in the 
street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free for me 
to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the minerals to 
create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in my yard.


pd

Scott Reed wrote:
Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is 
because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you 
are using what I paid for without paying.


Pete Davis wrote:
I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up 
within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless 
network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the 
time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water 
hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of 
water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one 
significantly costs anyone.


While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it 
costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any 
cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his 
files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up 
and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is 
grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information 
access, etc, etc.


If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several 
hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your 
window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real 
issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs 
you real money to remedy.


If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make 
a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect 
anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you 
anything.


If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) 
or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages 
getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue.


An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to 
establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out 
fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of 
installing real fire hydrants.


As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war 
driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the 
cost to the customer) or whatever.
Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I 
don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I 
have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war 
driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with 
either one, you would get your hand slapped.


Pete Davis
NoDial.net.



Rick Smith wrote:
ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and 
ASK your permission to use the phone.   At which point, you

COULD say NO! and shut the door on them.  Or, you could let them
in, and tell them OK! here it is!

BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, 
plugging a butt set in and just dialing away...


If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck,
walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co.
put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in
and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR
expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you.

What's different with WiFi ?  Nothing but the excuses we allow people
to continue to make.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for
802.11b/g

The legality and ethics of using an open access point is 
questionable, but
there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I 
cover with

my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial.
Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP 
or other

encryption key.
Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a 
list
that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will 
be sent

to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the
emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of 
me, get

connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down,
because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP 
solution,

then am I gonna get sued?
If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left 
open,

and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a
blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what?

I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open 

RE: [WISPA] recommendation forClient POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g

2007-01-01 Thread Mark McElvy
Yea but in order to eat the apple from my tree, you have to come into my
house and use my knife to cut it upBad analogy. Using an open AP is
still illegal. I may leave my front door open but it does not make it ok
for you to take stuff. You can listen to cordless phone conversations
but it is still illegal.

MM

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 11:25 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation forClient POE integrated radio for
802.11b/g

Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into the 
airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in the 
street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free for me 
to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the minerals to 
create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in my yard.

pd

Scott Reed wrote:
 Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is 
 because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you 
 are using what I paid for without paying.

 Pete Davis wrote:
 I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up 
 within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless 
 network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the

 time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water 
 hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of

 water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one 
 significantly costs anyone.

 While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it 
 costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any 
 cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his 
 files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up 
 and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is 
 grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information

 access, etc, etc.

 If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several 
 hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your 
 window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real 
 issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs 
 you real money to remedy.

 If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make 
 a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect

 anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you 
 anything.

 If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) 
 or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages 
 getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue.

 An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to 
 establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out 
 fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of 
 installing real fire hydrants.

 As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war 
 driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the 
 cost to the customer) or whatever.
 Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I 
 don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I 
 have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war 
 driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with 
 either one, you would get your hand slapped.

 Pete Davis
 NoDial.net.



 Rick Smith wrote:
 ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and

 ASK your permission to use the phone.   At which point, you
 COULD say NO! and shut the door on them.  Or, you could let them
 in, and tell them OK! here it is!

 BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, 
 plugging a butt set in and just dialing away...

 If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my
truck,
 walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co.
 put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in
 and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR
 expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you.

 What's different with WiFi ?  Nothing but the excuses we allow
people
 to continue to make.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Pete Davis
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio
for
 802.11b/g

 The legality and ethics of using an open access point is 
 questionable, but
 there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I 
 cover with
 my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial.
 Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP 
 or other
 encryption key.
 Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a

 list
 that authorizes your connection, all of your 

Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g

2007-01-01 Thread Travis Johnson

Not true... a case has already been filed about this exact thing...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Florida_man_charged_with_stealing_WiFi
http://stpetersburgtimes.com./2005/07/04/Southpinellas/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml

It is illegal, period.

Travis
Microserv

Pete Davis wrote:
Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into 
the airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in 
the street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free 
for me to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the 
minerals to create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in 
my yard.


pd

Scott Reed wrote:
Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is 
because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you 
are using what I paid for without paying.


Pete Davis wrote:
I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up 
within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless 
network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of 
the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your 
water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A 
sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router 
neither one significantly costs anyone.


While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it 
costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any 
cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his 
files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up 
and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is 
grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized 
information access, etc, etc.


If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several 
hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your 
window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real 
issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs 
you real money to remedy.


If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make 
a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't 
suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't 
cost you anything.


If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) 
or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages 
getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue.


An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to 
establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out 
fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of 
installing real fire hydrants.


As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war 
driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the 
cost to the customer) or whatever.
Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I 
don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I 
have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war 
driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with 
either one, you would get your hand slapped.


Pete Davis
NoDial.net.



Rick Smith wrote:
ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, 
and ASK your permission to use the phone.   At which point, you

COULD say NO! and shut the door on them.  Or, you could let them
in, and tell them OK! here it is!

BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, 
plugging a butt set in and just dialing away...


If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck,
walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co.
put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in
and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR
expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you.

What's different with WiFi ?  Nothing but the excuses we allow people
to continue to make.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio 
for

802.11b/g

The legality and ethics of using an open access point is 
questionable, but
there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I 
cover with

my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial.
Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP 
or other

encryption key.
Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to 
a list
that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will 
be sent

to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the
emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of 
me, get

connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down,
because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP 
solution,

then am I gonna 

Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g

2007-01-01 Thread George Rogato
Yeah, but there was also a state that was making open ap's legal to 
connect to.

We hashed that one around quite awhile ago as well.


Travis Johnson wrote:

Not true... a case has already been filed about this exact thing...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Florida_man_charged_with_stealing_WiFi
http://stpetersburgtimes.com./2005/07/04/Southpinellas/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml 



It is illegal, period.

Travis
Microserv

Pete Davis wrote:
Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into 
the airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in 
the street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free 
for me to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the 
minerals to create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in 
my yard.


pd

Scott Reed wrote:
Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is 
because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you 
are using what I paid for without paying.


Pete Davis wrote:
I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up 
within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless 
network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of 
the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your 
water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A 
sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router 
neither one significantly costs anyone.


While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it 
costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any 
cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his 
files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up 
and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is 
grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized 
information access, etc, etc.


If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several 
hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your 
window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real 
issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs 
you real money to remedy.


If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make 
a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't 
suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't 
cost you anything.


If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) 
or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages 
getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue.


An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to 
establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out 
fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of 
installing real fire hydrants.


As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war 
driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the 
cost to the customer) or whatever.
Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I 
don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I 
have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war 
driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with 
either one, you would get your hand slapped.


Pete Davis
NoDial.net.



Rick Smith wrote:
ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, 
and ASK your permission to use the phone.   At which point, you

COULD say NO! and shut the door on them.  Or, you could let them
in, and tell them OK! here it is!

BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, 
plugging a butt set in and just dialing away...


If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck,
walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co.
put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in
and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR
expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you.

What's different with WiFi ?  Nothing but the excuses we allow people
to continue to make.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio 
for

802.11b/g

The legality and ethics of using an open access point is 
questionable, but
there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I 
cover with

my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial.
Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP 
or other

encryption key.
Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to 
a list
that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will 
be sent

to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the
emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of 
me, get


RE: How to secure WiFi networks was RE: [WISPA] recommendation

2007-01-01 Thread Frank
WEP is easily broken. The much stronger WPA2 (WPA2/AES) is a simple setup.

For personal/home use just use a pre shared key (PSK) which is just a shared
password.

Unlike WEP, with WPA2 there is no fixed or hard to remember HEX code. Just
pick a good shared password for home/personal use.

Just use the same password in your PC and AP. Win XP is simple to setup with
WPA2, see the XP Advanced tab for the wireless interface.


Frank Keeney
Blog: http://www.unwiredadventures.com
Photos: http://snurl.com/unwirephotos


 -Original Message-
 From: Rick Smith
 
 With all this discussion, I've not done it in a while for
 clients - is there a website somewhere that details all
 the methods for A/P and CPE security ?
 
 I remember Win XP being a royal pain in the keister when 
 trying to get it to work with WEP and Linksys...
 
 Any good guides out there ?  Perhaps WISPA's website should
 hold the how-to, and we all make it a habit to secure clients
 access to their own wifi networks.

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RE: How to secure WiFi networks was RE: [WISPA] recommendation

2007-01-01 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
It appears that Affinegy (http://www.affinegy.com) has an interesting
automated solution to lock down the security in a home Wi-Fi network.

. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Smith
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:14 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: How to secure WiFi networks was RE: [WISPA] recommendation

With all this discussion, I've not done it in a while for
clients - is there a website somewhere that details all
the methods for A/P and CPE security ?

I remember Win XP being a royal pain in the keister when 
trying to get it to work with WEP and Linksys...

Any good guides out there ?  Perhaps WISPA's website should
hold the how-to, and we all make it a habit to secure clients
access to their own wifi networks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:06 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for
802.11b/g

Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is because I
paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you are using what I
paid for without paying.


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RE: [WISPA] capstan

2007-01-01 Thread Rick Harnish
That particular winch was approximately $1800 new.

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ron Wallace
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 1:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] capstan

Than ks Rick,
What is the approx. cost? I have seen a couple that tower guys put together,
but had trouble finding the parts.
Ron Wallace 
Hahnron, Inc. 
220 S. Jackson Dt. 
Addison, MI 49220 

Phone: (517)547-8410 
Mobile: (517)605-4542 
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Rick Harnish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 05:17 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], ''WISPA General List''
Subject: RE: [WISPA] capstan

Chris,

I bought a 120v model this summer. We love it. 

http://www.myte.com/products_utility.html

http://www.myte.com/distributors.asp?State=oh


Happy New Years!

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of chris cooper
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:36 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] capstan

Im looking for a reese hitch mount 12v capstan. Anybody have any
pointers to a good one?

 

Thanks

Chris

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